I'm really struggling now...

I ahve sort of come to terms with the fact that we will split which is making the 180 easier, but then when I intercepted an e-mail that told a female friend of hers that life was stressful as she was making divorce arrangements as things had been difficult for 6 years but come to ahead over the last few months when she has been having an affair.

She is being completely open with everyone about it and to see it in black and white really hurts.

I really want to save this marriage but I know I must not break the 180. We have dinner out next week to talk about the divorce (her request) and I need to save the talking to then.

Do I just keep going hoping that she will change her mind????

There were a couple of signs this morning (unless I am reading too much into thing) such as:

She said "you can't blame me that you didn;t have breakfast this morning" I replied that "I don't blame her for anything anymore it's in the past" She said that "you should do"

Also that she sorted some stuff out last night when she went out (she came back very down) and that what goes around comes around - I think (hope) this may mean that she has dropped OM thought by a tone of another e-mail she may have had an liaison on the night of the wedding with someone else so maybe she has confessed that to OM!!

There must be something else I can do, I feel so hopeless.

Can you describe the detail of your 180 plan here so that people can give you feedback.

Have you told her that you are willing to proceed with divorce? You should be saying that you don't talk divorce, that you only talk marrige with her. If she does move out, the kids are staying with you-right? Why should you settle for split custody. If she moves out and you are able to drag out the divorce, you could go for full custody. That is assuming that she moves out instead of coming out of her fog.

Describe your 180 behaviors and your plan A behaviors. Also tell us how you are letting her know that you are all about marriage and that divorce is for the attorneys.

What do you plan to tell her at this meeting she wants with you about the so called divorce?

EEEEEEEKKKKKKKK!!!! - I think I have got it all wrong...

I thought the 180 was designed to show that I was moving on (ie. without her) with the idea that she would back track and want to give things a try.

The plan A I have been trying is to show her that I am strong and can control my own life, that I am a great father.

The 180, I thought was to show her that I was moving on from her as above. She said she wanted a divorce and I agreed that if that is what she wanted we would give each other space and talk about it later. She said that as we had a babysitter already arranged for then that we could discuss her divorce research then. I have also told her I was working on rebuilding my life and being friends with her!!

It sounds like I have completely misunderstood - what do I do????

Shall I give her the space she has asked for until next week when we go out and then say I won't discuss divorce only how we take our marriage forward or should I tell her now?

The risk I am taking here is that I have solicitor advice that the system in UK means that I would normally only get visitation rights to the children and she wants to do it out of court and split everything 50:50, which is a good deal.

How do I get this all back on track?

Yet again I have stuffed up, every action I have taken is and has caused a mess. I am trying everything I can to solve this but keep getting everything wrong... PLEASE,PLEASE HELP

Just wanted to add:

She has her mind completely set on a divorce and has told all her friends so.

I need to tell her that:

"I have been reflecting on the events of the past 6 years during which your unhappiness has been expressed and Divorce is not an option I am prepared to consider or discuss. However, I would be more than happy that when you feel ready, we talk about how we are going to move our marriage forward in a way that we can best meet each other needs and be happy. Until that time I will be concentrating on finding the balance of personal happiness in my life that has been missing in recent years."

Does this sound about right? any comments or edits?

Should I be more emotional in terms of aspirations for our marraige or should I leave it like this as she is still deep in the fog of affair and it's exposure?

I was thinking of doing this by leaving it as a note on her bed so that she cannot argue back and has time to absorb it.

Respond to Lake's post - those were very good questions.

I like your note/speech about not wanting to talk D but wanting to rebuild the marriage.

Did she move to another bedroom, or did you?
If you moved, time to move back into YOUR bedroom - tonight!
If she moved to the guest room, not a lot you can do about that.

How are you doing? It sounds as though you are in the middle of deciding if you want to continue to Plan A your wife and also make divorce difficult for her (drag out proceedings) or if you want to go ahead and allow her to get the divorce and increase your chances of getting 50-50 custody of the children.

Given your statement that you feel that you are risking access to your children by continuing to make divorce dificult for her, I think it's difficult to provide you with advice on how to proceed. Your children are primary in this situation.

Did you say you are in Gr. Britain? Could you put a shout out to others from Gr. Britain?--Maybe change the title of your thread to get more specific feedback?

Yet another update...

I have no idea what plan I am on anymore, I think I am off-piste!

My wife is still sleeping in the spare room and there looks like little chance of that changing. She still wants a divorce (with 50:50 custody)and is making preparations (those these have gone a bit quiet the last few days). I have agree that if she wants a divorce then that's what we will do, but it is not what I really want. The most important thing though here is the children. For their sake I have agreed that I will not stand in the way of a divorce and that for their sake it would help if we could be friends.

She is shaken up still from the exposure and I think the OM has now called it off (hence her comment what goes around comes around) but I have not asked her about this or confirmed - I have given up snooping.

I am focussed entirely on me at the moment - I have looked into finances, renewed a few lost friendships (which feels great) and though about the options that being single would present (buy a boat on the river, try new sports, etc.). I am still nervous about the future but more confident I will survive. I believe 99% that the marriage is over but feel the steps of getting my life together and finding myself are critical to my happiness whatever happens.

The funny thing is that as I get stronger, my wife seems to be getting less happy with her lot (maybe cos affair might be over, future money/getting job concerns, loss of lifestsyle and training?). Her 'dream' future without me is not starting to look quiet so rosey.

I told her that if she was short of money when we split that I would make sure she had enough to do anything she wanted with the kids but that I would not support her own lifestyle ( bike kit, triathlon, shopping etc.) I am being annoyingly reasonable to her.

I did mention last night when she was worrying that maybe she should think about whether a divorce is really what she wants and she said "ok, I will" - previously it was "why can;t I get it into your head that I've wanted this for 6 years!" - so a small improvement.

My plan is to keep doing the same, let her control the momentum of the divorce process, and I will be reasonable and focus on my future alone. If she changes her mind then we can discuss working on our marriage but it will need to include my terms such as:

No contact with OM
Reduction in training and change in triathlon club
Protected family time
Protected couple time
My own life and space.
Counselling

I am still crazy about my wife, but my head knows that the situation even before the affair was not one that I was at all happy with. I feel ambivalent between divorce or a proper renewing of our marriage - the only thing I don't want is what our marriage was for the last 4 years before the affair - I deserve better.

I am stronger now and more determined. I do still have my deep love for my wife playing games with my heart but I will survive.

I know I am off the plans at the moment but it is finding me a bit of peace and seems to be melting my wifes frostiness a little. Meanly, I am actually enjoying her looking so miserable!!

I would really value and apprecaite your thoughts, as ever, on this 'off-piste' venture.

Best wishes all.

Listen, you're exactly where I was. EXACTLY!

I was railroaded into a D I didn't want. You know how I ended up? Royally f'ed!

Now, please do the following:

Don't agree to a divorce you don't want and refuse to discuss it with her in any way.

Make it clear to her that you will not be her friend if you divorce. She has this fantasy image in her head that once you work through your hurt you and her will be great friends for the kids. Trust me. I've lived that idea and guess what? We're not friends.

You are dealing with the shock of it all still and are making HUGE mistakes.

Why, why, why are you letting this woman stay in your home while still in an affair?

Why don't you cut her off financially?

Let her know that if she chooses divorce you will not just lay down for her and that you will seek FULL custody.

If I had you in front of me I'd shake you to try to wake you up to how you're going to royally F yourself by agreeing to a divorce you don't want.

You see, she's convinced this is going to be easy. She's convinced you two will be friends and life will be grand once the grass is greener on the other side.

Guess what will happen to you if you D? You will move on. You'll start living life again. You'll go through the stages of grief and anger is the nastiest, most scary stage you will go through. And it will show in one way or another.

Are you documenting?

Where is your proof of an affair?

Are you documenting how much time you spend with the kids versus her?

Trust me when I tell you: You will get over her. Once you do you will wish you had FULL custody because a cheating adulterous woman is not a good mother. Anyone who willingly destroys a family deserves all the bad karma coming to them>

So please wake up. Stop the defeatist talk and wake up!

So what do you do?

You refuse to discuss divorce and you let her know, very kindly, that you will not support or willingly participate in the destruction of your marriage. You will only talk about marriage and fixing it and will not make a divorce easy.

She's blow her lid and become a possessed crazy woman when you say this, but expect it.

You then implement the 180. Google 180 and infidelity and you'll find it. That's how you act.

Didn't she leave your home?

Document, document, document.

Don't voluntarily participate in a divorce you don't want.

You don't understand something that a person who has been through the process understands: It's grueling, long and difficult. It is even more so when one of the parties drags things out and makes it that way.

How long? Depends on the state. Maryland requires 1 year of separation before even starting the process. And you sure as heLL are not going to be the one to leave your home.

Please don't.

Don't be like me! I went along with all the demands and got royally screwed! It's taken 2 long years of legal battles and thousands of dollars to get a fair amount of time with the kids.

Don't go along.

You let her do all the legal leg work. You focus on your kids.

Please stop being indecisive and stop letting her control you, because that is exactly what she's doing.

OK.

STOP!!!!!

the 180° and Dr Harley's Plan A are NOT the same thing. You SHOULD be doing PLAN A!!!!!!

Here is Plan A.

Pep's Plan A

Breathe.

This is not over.

Plan A goes hand in hand with the 180. It's not part of Harley's official approach, but it complements his approach very well.

Here's the 180:

180 is a list of behaviors from Michelle Wiener Davis, the author of Divorce Busting, that will help your spouse to see you moving forward as a healthy person. I would highly suggest that any new BS begin these behaviors as soon as possible. I am convinced that if I had implemented them, I would still be married. In retrospect, I did everything besides 180. I looked pathetic. No one wants to be perceived as pathetic. 180 makes you look strong. Strong is attractive. (Making it)

So here's the list:

Don't pursue reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.

No frequent phone calls.

Don't point out "good points" in marriage.

Don't follow her/him around the house.

Don't encourage or initiate discussion about the future.

Don't ask for help from the family members of your WS.

Don't ask for reassurances.

Don't buy or give gifts.

Don't schedule dates together.

Don't keep saying, "I Love You!" Because if you have a brain in your head, he/she is at this particular moment, not very loveable.

Do more then act as if you are moving on with your life; begin moving on with your life!

Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and independent.

Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go out with friends, enjoy old hobbies, find new ones! But stay busy!

When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. Don't push any issue? No matter how much you want to!

If you're in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING. Seem totally uninterested.

Your partner needs to believe that you have awakened to the fact that "they (the WS)" are serious concerning their assertions as to the future (or lack thee of) of your marriage. Thus, you are you are moving on with your life? with out them!

Don't be nasty, angry or even cold - Just pull yourself back.

Don't always be so available? for anything! Your spouse will notice. More important, he/she will notice that you're missing.
No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment? Make yourself be someone they would want to be around. Not a moody, needy, pathetic individual but a self assured individual secure in the knowledge that they have value.

All questions about the marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may not be for quite a while). Initiate no such conversation!

Do not allow yourself to lose your temper. No yelling, screaming or name calling EVER. No show of temper! Be cool, act cool; be in control of the only thing you can control? YOURSELF!

Don't be overly enthusiastic.

Do not argue when they tell you how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger). In fact, refuse to argue at all!
Be patient and learn to not only listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you? HEAR what it is that they are saying! Listen and then listen some more!

Learn to back off, keep your mouth shut and walk away when you want to speak out, no matter what the provocation. No one ever got themselves into trouble by just not saying anything.

Take care of you. Exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil.

Be strong, confident and learn to speak softly.

Know that if you can do this 180, your smallest CONSISTENT action will be noticed far more than any words you can say or write.

Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are feeling totally desperate and needy.

Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse. It's not always about you! More to the point, at present they just don't care!

Do not believe any of what you hear them say and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives and do so in the most strident tones imaginable. Try to remember that they are also hurting and afraid. Try to remember that they know what they are doing is wrong and so they will say anything they can to justify their behavior.

Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel. It "ain't over till it's over!"

Do not backslide from your hard earned changes. Remain consistent! It is the consistency of action and attitude that delivers the message.

When expressing your dissatisfaction with the actions of the wayward party, never be judgmental, critical or express moral outrage. Always explain that your dissatisfaction is due to the pain that the acts being committed are causing you as a person.

This is the kind of behavior that will cause you to be a much more attractive and mysterious individual. Further it SHOWS that you are NOT afraid to move on with your life. Still more important, it will burst their positive little bubble; the one in which they believe that they can always come back to you in case things don't work out with the OM/OW."

I do think that there are serious differences in this 180 Plan and Plan A. It is important the people who want to follow Plan A understand these serious differences.

I am sure that other more experienced posters will chime in but I can start:

In Plan A, you attempt to determine your WS's primary emotional needs and you attempt to meet them as much as the WS will allow you to meet them. You have to be careful not to seem clingy in doing this and you only give them what they appear to be willing to accept from you. This is very different from the 180 described here and is a very important part of Plan A.

In Plan A you also point out reality to the WS. You calmly let them know that you feel hurt when they make contact with the OP. You do not act as though you don't care and that you are moving on with your life.

In Plan A, you do keep busy and move on with your life. However, you invite your WS to join you in any of your plans where it would be reasonable for your WS to join you. Example, taking kids on picnic, or to amusement park? Let WS know that she is welcome to come along. You are letting WS know that you are an enjoyable, active, interesting person and that she is welcome to be part of your life--no begging, no weeping, just a calm invite to be part of the enjoyable times.

When home with your WS, I would not advise you to be short or scarce on words. I would suggest that you read posts by School Bus regarding body language and communication. Depending on your situation, I would suggest you use opportunities that come your way for interesting and positive communication using School Bus' techniques. It requires that you carefully gauge the receptiveness of the WS and do not get into relationship talks where you appear needy. But there are ways to gently touch your WS, or walk in their line of view, or speak to them when they awaken in the morning, or reach across their perceived body space to retreive a glass or other object that are advantageous to your situation with the WS. This seems to be in direct conflict with the Plan 180 described above.

These are some of my thoughts when I read the description of this "180." I am very concerned that people follow Plan A, not this "180," if they want to follow a Marriage Builder Approach. I am sure that others can point out other concerns.

This "180" almost sounds like some kind of combination of Plan A and Plan B. Remember, first Plan A THEN, if needed--Plan B. Do not combine them.

The 180 works.

Plan A can go hand in hand with the 180. You can still look at the EN's of your WS and try to address them. The 180 is a guide on how to act, not hard and fast rules.

Adapt most of it and meld it with Plan A and it will have an impact.

Why not stick with Plan A? What is wrong with Plan A that it needs to be augmented with your "180"?

Thanks for the advice all...

I have decided that as my wife and I are geeting along so badly at the moment and she is 'in love' with the OM, that if I 180'd then that would be fine by her.

Instead I am going to plan A because:

1) It will help me find myself and enjoy life again
2) It will be a friendship back between my wife and I which is critical for us to do the very best by our children
3) It will give my wife a chance to see how good our marriage really could be.

I think I need to do this for at least a month, building up slowly so that it is not too obvious.

At the moment she 100% wants divorce, has said that she loves OM and will not cut off contact, but is not sure what she wants out of it.
We are talking about living in the same house until next October to make things easier for children (our youngest would start school then, find new houses, mortgage tie-ins etc.) and financially.

This gives me a year to save our marriage. It will be tough knowing that she is seeing OM while living under same roof.

We went out for dinner last night and talked about how important we are to each other and how we wanted to do the right thing for all of us. I think I may have uncovered her real issue too in that she says she doesn't want to live with anyone, just have her own space - I know that she has felt like this for a lng time and always enjoys time alone She says she knows she is selfish and just wants to live for herself.

I would be very interested to get advice on how to implement this plan A best and and particularly love a link to the School Bus post as mentioned by lake53 please

Thanks all.

which schoolbus post are you wanting.
BTW, that "I just want space" thing... they nearly all say that.
Its just helps them indulge in their A with less interferrance.

Lil

The space thing is an opportunity for her not to have to be know as my wife or the childrens mother, but to be herself. This is important to her and I think she is right. This may allow her to indulge in the affair but I want her to WANT to spend that time with me. As such I need to make being with me as attractive a proposition as possible.

Hence, any tips for the best plan A ever would be hugely welcome.

Lake53 gave me a good start and hopefully if someone can provide a link to School Bus' post about communication & body language then I can earn my wife's respect, friendship, affection and I hope love to save or marriage.

Please post ALL good plan A ideas / suggestions ... I got a marriage to a beautiful, special lady to save!!

I bumped one of Schoolbus' Info threads up for you.

DBNO,

Buddy, seriously, you're messing up. The 180 and Plan A go hand in hand. Read it again. There's nothing in the 180 that contradicts Plan A. You can still make a loving home and many changes and implement the 180 and Plan A together. They go hand in hand.

You can still make a warm and welcoming home.

So you're telling me that you are going to tolerate a woman living with you and cheating on you at the same time? Come on!

This is where you need to man up! Where's your pride and dignity?!

How can she respect you when you act this way?!

This stuff about living alone is fog speak. She'll shack up with OM the second she can. Trust me. It's all bs talk. I'm saying this because I heard it all!

Are you financially supporting her? What are you paying for?

Who have you exposed to?

Have you confronted OM?

Laying down and being passive will lead you straight to divorce. You must understand that you and your wife aren't different or special. She isn't unique in her behavior. I MADE THE SAME MISTAKE!

I thought, "The people on MB don't know my WW. They just don't understand. She is different and I'm sure we'll be back together before long."

So in the meantime she's asking you to live with the indignity of her being your wife while she goes out and screws another man while living in the home you pay for with your children.

COME ON!

Please have some dignity and not tolerate this!

I dealt with this crap but wouldn't have been able to for very long. It was only a month for me and I dealt with the same indignity you're dealing with. I stayed at home on Friday and Saturday nights while she got all dressed up to go to clubs and flirt with other men.

I look back in shame that I didn't kick her butt out for that. You will too someday.

Think about it: you stay home and babysit the kids while she goes out to screw someone else!

Please! Don't do this to yourself!

Can you not understand that this makes her lose all respect for you?!

Can you not understand that what you are doing now is exactly what you'll regret doing later?

Don't take my word for it. Call SH.

But you should confront the OM.

This is your FAMILY! Stand up for it! Do something!

Being passive and hoping she changes her mind isn't going to get you anywhere but divorced and separated from your kids!

Trust me! Please stop being a doormat.

Plan A involves a carrot in addition to a stick.

Yes, you create a warm, welcoming environment in the home where you show her you're the man she fell in love with.

Did the man she fall in love with follow her everywhere? Did he weep all the time? Did he tolerate her sleeping with other men?

Did he stand on the sidelines warmly smiling while she paraded other men in front of him?

Or did she fall in love with a MAN? Someone who had self respect and self confidence? Someone who didn't let himself get walked on?

Plan A involves a stick. Exposure. Behavior that doesn't SUPPORT infidelity. So you're going to give her a home to sleep in while she carries on her affair.

You going to fill up her tank too? Pay her insurance and cell phone to call OM?

Why don't you buy her the condoms? Perhaps you can book the hotel rooms for her or plan a romantic getaway while you're at it.

Maybe you can sit next to the bed while they screw in front of you and fetch them water between sessions.

Seriously, how can she respect a man who allows this in his own home?

I'm being harsh, but you're lacking a ton of dignity.

I WAS JUST LIKE YOU!

So what happened to me?

Railroaded into a divorce I didn't want. I gave her everything she asked for and wanted, thinking "If I don't make this difficult, then we can be back together."

So I let her keep everything from our marriage, including primary custody of the kids. All the while thinking, "She'll come back. I'll have my family again. We can be together again."

It never happened. I made it easy for her and she ran with it. So what happened after she was officially free?

She found a new man, moved him in with her and made it very tough for me to see my kids. 2 years and thousands of legal fees later I finally have a decent arrangement to see the kids.

My love for her? Dead. Gone. But my desire to be a father isn't and that has been an ongoing legal battle that isn't over.

You want to be me? Because that's exactly where you're headed. I heard all the same garbage you're being told. Pretty soon she'll tell you that perhaps you guys can be together again after "some time apart to heal."

You'll buy it hook line and sinker and give her exactly while she wants. All the while she prepares to stab you in the back and maneuver you into giving her everything. So in a year or two you can watch as another man sits on your couch, watches your TV, and screws your now ex wife on the bed you paid for while getting to see your kids more than you.

You? You'll be living alone and trying to put your life back together and THEN you'll get mad.

So don't go down that road.

You're making it easy for her, which is NOT Plan A!

So what do you do?

Stop funding her in any way. That's a right deserved for spouses.

Break all your accounts with her (I got cleaned out by my ex because I trusted her).

Cancel all credit cards belonging to the two of you or to her (marital debt will fall on both of you).

Do NOT let her use marital assets to see OM. So the car you pay for shouldn't be used for that. Sell the car if you need to.

She wants a divorce and wants independence. Give it to her in spades.

Make her feel the reality.

Let her know that if she walks out of your home to go on a date with OM, that she will return to find the locks on the house changed and that you won't let her back in.

Believe me. Standing up for yourself and your marriage will get you a lot further than being namby pamby and supporting her infidelity through inaction.

Women return to men who fight for their marriages. They don't come back to men who make their affairs easy.

Have you confronted OM? Have you threatened him with an AOA lawsuit? Have you told him that if he continues to see your wife you're going to make him sorry for that?

Seriously, man up!

I'm trying to help you stand up. I'm not trying to beat you down. Please, others, especially FWWs, please thrown in your two cents on this!

Listen to Pom

Stop watching the @&**^% soapies and pay attention.

A Lifesavers maxim is "First get the man out of the water, then get the water out of the man".

I guess this translates to "First remove your wife from the OM, then get the thought of OM out of her".

It is your responsibility as a husband to disable their contact.

Do we have to tell you that you have a right to be angry.

Whining and respecting her space is just BS BS. Where is her hero to rescue her from herself? He has gone to the land of touchy, touchy, feely, feely.

Man! it is your job to lead her back to the marriage, not leave her in the quagmire of her emotions. Don't cop out.

Anything else... Hand in your man card.

It is very important that you understand that you are wrong in your belief that she should be allowed to not have to be known as your wife and the mother of children.

This is the very fog talk and thought that will KEEP her involved in the affair.

She will not come out of her affair if you allow her be known as a single woman with no children.

No carrot in the world will work if you let her do this.

I think you are making a wise choice to stay away from that "180" plan as I think it confuses you. You still need to absorb the carrot and the stick of Plan A. You are right to keep other Plans out of the mix.

But, you can't continue down the road stated in your quote above. Whenever possible, you and the children should attend her triathlon events. They frequently have pasta dinners associated with the events that you should attend. You do need to continue to talk to your mutual friends and let them know that you are still the husband.

You do need to be a strong man who does not want his wife involved with another man. You are not friends with your wife and you don't want to establish that kind of a relationship with her. You are her husband and you want to be her husband and her lover. Being her "friend" implies that you are not her lover.

I think that the parts of that "180" that encouraged you to act as though you were 'moving on with your life without her' made it too easy for you to avoid confrontations regarding her wayward behavior.

You still seem to be avoiding that part of PLAN A.

Exactly who is the Other Man? Does he participate in these triathlon events also? Where do your friends stand on this situation? Can't you make it uncomfortable enough for this other man so that he decides she is not worth it?