I dont want to do all this work to get off the hill.
The hill is high and makes me feel tall.
( wah wah wah wah )

Ok now that I am done being childish about this I would like to say that I am very appreciative of your insight and I think I will re- read your post another 4-5 times ( already did 3-4) times and try to come up with a good plan. I put my rings back on and now I have about 3 hrs before H comes home to figure out how I am going to explain to him why I walked up and now down the hill.

I think I will type up what I plan to say and then unromantic as it is I wil read it out to him. This way I know what I am saying is well thought out and limited to the time I want to allocate to get my point across. The hard part will be not to add to what I have written on the fly.
So in the note I plan on covering :
1) Explaining to him what I have now uncovered as my true feelings behind taking the ring off ie: wanting us both to do the work in this M and Recovery. I will accumulate all the things that I have noticed that he is doing towards our recovery and list them and ask him to point out any other visible ways that he has been working on "us" that I overlooked.
2) Letting him know that I have put the rings back on beacuse for me they symbolize a happy reminder of our wedding and commitment to each other and I am happy to be reminded of that.
3) I would love to continue the discussion of somehow connecting his new ring (when ever he gets one) to my old ring so that I dont feel they are seperate and disjointed. Either by us both getting new ones or some other form of happy reconnecting ( dont know the answer yet so we need more discussion on ways how to do this.)

FYI the reason I put them back on is I dont need his help in putting them back on. I am happy to be commited to our marriage and since the ring to me symbolises my commitment I am glad I am wearing it again.

I am overwhelmend by gratitute towards you for your help and there are no words to convey it appropriately other than "Thank you" Schoolbus. I hope you feel the warmth that they are said with.

SB

Ok I typed up the letter of what I wanted to say. are you aroud so I can post it here and get your feedback.
I will handwrite it out when I have tweaked it but would love your creative input if you are up for it.

wmf - Take this for what it is worth, which may not be much. It is no way advice, just a perspective of a WH.

In our situation my wife gave me her ring back sometime after the first Dday. It did hurt some because I saw it as her sign of giving up. And since for all practical purpose I had to it all seemed pointless.

Then I gave it back to her in Dec. Made a big deal of it. Mistake as I had not solidified NC. The mistake was not having NC solidifed not giving the ring back. That being said when it all went south again she gave me her ring again. I stopped wearing mine when she gave hers back on both occasions. While seperated I gave her ring to her and told her she could do what she wanted as it had no meaning to me. If we got back together it would not be with that ring. I still don't want her to wear hers. It no longer discourages me, but shows me, and reminds me I have work to do to win her back. Although I know she loves me I still want to win her back. I know that probably makes no sense. But it does in my mind.

I actually put my ring back on Sunday. I felt I needed to show a commitment, but as much as anything, was to remind me I am married. As while we were seperated, I took on more of a single person attitude. No it did not stop me from going outside the marriage. But I think it can help in keeping someone else from speaking how they truely feel that gets an A started. We will never know how many A's are never started because of a ring, but I bet it is many.

Anyways as I said take all of this for what it is worth. No advice, just a perspective. Certainly not trying to add or take away from what SB says, as she has such a way of communicating she has helped us through posts that were not even to us.
She has me working on a letter to my oldest daughter.

Not2L8
Thanks for your perspective , atleast I have some onfo on how a WH might look at the taking off the ring by a BS.


From my point of view, that ring becoming meanigless to me = all the years prior to that becoming meaninless too. So I am not ready to give up my old ring yet. My H and I did not go thru a seperation period so I am not sure how that changes ones feelings at that point.


For now I wrote the letter to DH and gave it to him last night, I listed all the things I notice he is doing towards helping us, explained to him why I took of the rings and why i put them back. I reedited it and took out any thing remotely negative. I had originally added a few items of how he can additionally help but at the last minute omitted them.
So gave the note at dinner, H smiled and was happy that I had my rings on , no follow up conversation other than he said he was happy that I removed the ring as a "huge issue" and that he was happy that I was recoganizing all the things he was doing.

I was hoping for a more substantial reaction and discussion but I am learning not to be a drama queen about everything. So I have my rings back on I am no longer sad that I am not wearing them. The issue of his ring still continues but its his decision to make not mine. He did stop at a local jewler with me after dinner to get himself sized and looked at a few ring options (so progress).

I think that is nice thought to work with. I love my H dearly and I want to be with him but when he does any small act to win me back it makes the journey much more rewarding and increases my happiness (back to Knight in shining armour female fantasy). Have you shared that feeling with your W ?

"From my point of view, that ring becoming meanigless to me = all the years prior to that becoming meaninless too."

I had not thought of it this way. I am going to ask my wife how she feels. She may share your perspective.

"Have you shared that feeling with your W ?"

Not that bluntly. I am horrible with that. I tend to give to many hints and not be straight forward in that regard. Thus she did not know how I truely felt pre A. Totally my fault. As TST pointed out to me. I tend to overanalyze how things will be taken and if I say too much then the changes are not real. So I still struggle with how to tell her I want to be able to win her back. I think as much as women want the knight in shining armor, that men want to be that. Anyways, still not sure how to go about that yet.

"He did stop at a local jewler with me after dinner to get himself sized and looked at a few ring options (so progress)."
Did you give him Kudos for doing this? I know we WH don't deserve kudos but when we get them boy does it help to stay the course at this point. Actually thinking about that a bit more, it is actually just the acknowledment that we are making progress or that our efforts are recognized. I know you did that with the letter, so great job with that.

Ring update.

Had a discussion witH jennifer last night about ring, and she "coached " on me needing to learn the art of negotiation without Lbs. Much like SBs recomendations of how to communicte body language etc.
So last night after the call we ended up talking about the ring and I "really listened" to DHs point of view on the rings and I think we have a plan. He will get an identical replacemnt to his current ring simply because the current one does not fit. I alreday have a replacemnet to my original (gotten 10 years ago) because mine did not fit. We will preserve both originals as they are for memory sake.

If at a later time we decide that we need to symbolize our "new relationship" in any way then we can have a seperate discussion about that at a later time. I dont know if I need to or want to at do anything new at all, but if that need/desire/fantasy keeps rising then we will be do something about it.

In the meatime once DH gets his "correct size ring" the ring issue is closed.
1 down 999 to go

wmf,

I AM SO SO SO HAPPY FOR YOU!!!!!!!


That hill?

Smooth, flat land.


I think you just made about a year's worth of progress in one evening with that ring event.

Because you showed your husband a huge change in you.

And what happened?

HE MOVED FORWARD. You didn't have to ask. You didn't have to nag.

He just went to the jewelry store, on his own.


Now isn't that amazing?


And the biggest bonus here? You have shown him soooooo much about YOU.

He now sees you very differently.

He sees you as someone who:

Can change
Can listen
Can apologize
Can move forward
Can negotiate calmly
Can accept her own mistakes
Can realign her thoughts
Can reason through emotional problems and responses


And his response to YOUR positive moves? HE CHANGED HIS MIND, AND HE WENT TO THE JEWELRY STORE.

And wasted NO TIME DOING IT, either.


Now, I need you to do something for yourself, for the two of you.


Use the same conversational "rules", only to discuss something FUN.

Talk about the three very best things that have ever happened to you in your lives. He goes first.

Only, don't tell him you are using the rules. Just use them.


SB

Thanks for your positive words sb


Ok will try the pleasent talk tonight and see if I see the changes in me that you see and you think he sees.

wmf,

I see them.


Look at what you did!


You listened to me. You listened to him. You ARE a listener!

You apologized. You ARE humble!

You changed what you had done. You ARE able to reverse course!

You thought about why you did what you did. You ARE able to evaluate your emotions.

You decided on a way to correct the course of action, and carried it out. You ARE able to fix things in a mature way!

Your actions resulted in your husband's jewelry store trip. You ARE able to effect change in your marriage, in a way that is gentle and mature, without fighting or drama.


You have successfully implemented MB concepts, wmf. You did what you thought about, did it well, and the end result was that your husband is looking for a ring.

That is exactly the whole idea. Getting results, without angst, and with calm, loving communication.


You will really enjoy the conversation. And watch how you get lost in your husband's voice. And how intimacy grows tonight.


SB

Schoolbus

Please stop by and SMACK me again. I completely ruined last night.
Started out with several triggers last evening and was unable to speak with H about them. When there are triggers sometimes they come and leave, other times like last night they swirl and srwil and loom and loom until the hole is so deep that I cant dig myself out of it.
Well I crawled into a hole and kept my H at bay from conversation as long as I could (read alienating him). Then at a later point went into full blown crying and revealing the pain and wanting him to take it all away without giving him any indiaction of how he can do that.
As you can imagine things went down hill eneded with marathon talk session that resolved nothing other than create complete exhaustion on both our parts.
So I am Sorry I did that. I just know that when I get into that triggerd hole I dont always know how to get out of it before all the escape hatches are closed. Part of my keeping him at bay involves not wanting him to see all my pain and think " oh here we go again she will never forget all of this".

Today I am trying not be beat my self up too much for having done that and undone the progress that I had just made.

Just working on not falling into a new hole today and making sure there is no reapeat of last night.

Any input on how to prevent the triggers from swallowing up my brain to the point that there is so much anger and so much pain that I dont care any more about the "healthy recovery process".

WMF...sorry for this but I'm desperate...

Mini T/J...

Schoolbus, would you be willing to take a look at the recent events on my thread? I am stuck and need advice on how to proceed.

Thanks!

HTM

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2027759#Post2027759

End T/J

Smack, thud...

I'm not Schoolbus but you wanted a smack.

Triggers are nasty things. You can go without them and then out of no where.

From speaking with my H, his triggers came when he wasn't feel safe (my term, not his) and/or tired.

There was a thread a week ago about overcoming triggers. I didn't look at it much but I believe that result was time.

You need TIME.

AND

Moving forward in a new relationship.

ACTION, whether by you or your H, to move your relationship in a positive direction.

Before you triggered, what where you doing? Where were you? How were you feeling?

Thanks for the smack , I needed/deserved that.
I am doing better cause yesterday I did not allow myself to throw another day away, so I made sure I did all I could to stay on track.

Triggers are a wierd thing. They come and go several times a day. My H has indicated to me to let him know when I have a trigger becasue it changes my body language and attitude and it would helpful for him , if he knew the cause of that. Wether it was somethgin he did or was it a blast from the past. I find that I am having a difficutlt time fessing up to him about the triggers because if he sees how often they are they may feel hopeless . So I struggle with the trigger and then the response to it

Yesterday was Ok. Many triggers but did things to snap me out and keep me busy. Did have a mini conversation with H at night but mostly just focsed on the fact that it will take me time to feel like my hear is healed. I let him know I feel good about the progress of the R, but there is a lot of unhappiness in me cause my heart is broken and it will take me a while to feel like it has mended.

Today was good, snuck out to yoga this morning that helped alot. Some triggers but nothing major. ( so far )

Actually before triggers on that day , it was a great day we did things around the house and generally was a happy day. NO H did not do anything to trigger it, infact he went to the grocery in th emorning and came with a bunch on flowers which was very sweet. The thoughts in my head need very littel input. Come to think of it there was a specific start. some in our family recently got divorced ( last year) and now is marrying their OW and I becgan to think of the impact on their grown kids and...... I can blame my trigger on that news but I cant blame my response and me proceeding to go down the unproductive marathon talk part on anyone else but me.

Sorry if I implied I thought your H did something to cause the trigger. That was not my intention.

What I wanted to say, according to my H, he triggered very badly when other things weren't right (which is why I used the word safe).

For example, I was working late and didn't call on my office phone. Instead I would use my cell phone to speed dial. It would come up on my cell and hard to verify that I was working late, I could have been untruthful.

After realizing this I would always call from my office to apologize if working late and tell him I would call again when I was shutting down.

Today, I still call but rarely work late. I come to work earlier instead, that is easier for us.

If I need to work late, I call from the office phone. After shutting down I call from my cell while I'm walking out but we are in a different place than when he would trigger.

There is trust again.

But I must admit that I'll call as soon as I lock the door and I assume he can hear the elevator and such. It's just my way to keep the comfortable level there.

Make sense?

I asked the questions to see if you were tired, the kids were being naughty, or other things that added to your pile and made you more vulnerable to trigger (mentally tired).


Look here, your H wants to KNOW and to HELP you.

You don't want to be doing ALL the work.

YOU are not allowing your H to HELP you here.

If its too difficult to tell him at the time.

Write it down as it is happening.

SHARE with him later.

Set that darn timer when you are going to discuss things.

When the timer goes off you are DONE for the night and together you and your H will do something fun.

Play a card game.

Watch a comedy sitcom.

Go get a treat.


When do the kids go back to school?

Then you can go back to your normal yoga schedule.

Until then, can you make two or three times a week like this morning.

Taking care of YOURSELF is very important too.

Hang in there. You are doing good. Let your H in to help you.

SB,

I wanted you to know this post helped me also. Lots like she and I are in the same beginning stage and just wanting so much to move forward. You wonder if the pain, anger and images ever stop or lessen at this point. Thanks for the hope.

WMF,

Thanks for your posts on my thread. I guess no matter where we are in recovery, we can always use some encouragement, eh?

Triggers are so tricky. I think jlr is right for me as well...I trigger more when things aren't going well. Maybe I have had a couple of evenings where H has been a little less open or more grouchy and I of course immediately fear the worst. Then something will happen that might have been easy to brush off before, but all of a sudden the pain is right there again.

I talk with H about these triggers. Not as a punishment or guilt trip, but because it is part of my agreement with H to be open and honest about my emotions. Often I feel better after talking with him. He doesn't necessarily dismiss my trigger as silly, but he helps to talk me out of it (if that makes sense). He doesn't negate it...just reminds me that I am safe.

It helps.

HTM

Did not mean to make you defensive. If ther was any anger in my statement it was directed solely at myself for letting thr triggers kick in even thou H did nothing to instigate the. He has been working from home yeasterday and today so it has been nice seeing him around.
Its kind of a tough day for me today, been triggering since last night and cant sahke it. Yesterday I started painting th ebedrrom like I have been thinking about for weeks now. So thats been a soothing but exhausting distraction. 1 wall done 3 more to go.


Well his help is really not helping me. Even since Jennifer told me that he would like me to tell him anout the triggers I have been paying closer attention to when I trigger and its a lot. May be 10-15 times a day. Usually small thoughst that come and go before they can build roots in my head. Other times they are just swirling in a neverending tornado in my head. Today is tornado day and I cant seem to make it go away.

I know exactly what you mean ( about talking me out of it). MY H does that too and sometimes its a good thing and other timnes I feel like they are being dismissed.
Its a tricky balance and I feel like it would be better if he was just filling me with so much love and affcetion that they never came up.

There was no anger, I was concerned that it sounded like I was blaming your H for doing something. And didn't mean to sound defensive either, just wanted to apologize if my words didn't match my meaning. We're all good.


OK, what is he doing that is not helping you?

What can he do that will help you?

Good question.
Well Him wanting to know that its a trigger and not a response to somethign he did ot did not do is a [color:#990000]good thing for him[/color] as I guess it gives him insite into what is going on in my head.
That being said, I guess my twisted mind thinks that if I didnot tell him about the trigger then he is not required to do anything about it. But if I tell him that the pain has just resurfaced, I guess I need him to take "extraordinary precautions" to make me feel better. Affection , conversation what ever it takes at that moment to help me get thru.
His M.O. so far has been hug- well it will take time - hug well atleast you know its not happening in the present ( ie its past pain that I caused you)- hug and a look of relief on his face well atleast she is not mad at me for something I did not did or did not to today.

Alongside all of this from his statements towards me I think he is appreciative of my attempts at meeting his needs. He constantly tells me that he sees how much attention and effort I am putting towards making him happy. I am starting to realize that I dont seem to say those same words back to him. I say I love him but I dont find myself saying "you make me happy" a lot . There are moments that I say it and most of those are preceded by conversation in which we agree on a future couse of action.
So I am happy at the promise of happiness, just loosing a little faith and patience today.

Also I guess I have gotten off tack of my own recovery. I am starting to see how my statements above reflect my need for my H to help me heal. I have to go back to what I did in the early days after D day where I just had to focus of what I could do to make myself happy . I go to bed most nights with one recurring thought before I go to sleep. He broke My heart and I dont know how to mend it.
Any ideas on how to mend a broken heart