I don't know...when I read that, I instantly agreed - and thought, sounds like her H.

Buck up, jayne, you're just feeling unsettled. Tomorrow will be better.

jayne, it wasn't a specific thing that you said that I had identified as a DJ, just more of the attitude of lack instead of problem-solving, I'm unhappy with our marriage because he's so avoidant. Maybe I'm off on that, just thought I should include it instead of being silent, so you could clarify if you thing that you are just full of great feeling about him right now.

Why is he not with you all? Where is he? Like a lot of moves you read about on the boards, I also kept the kids and packed up the house alone while H went on to the next place, without asking him for the help that I needed. I overextended myself and when I found out that I couldn't do it all by myself, I leaned on my extended family and friends to help. Instead of planning ahead both for both of us to do what we could and asking for help together when we needed. The way I did it, scrambling at the last minute, created resentment in me and family and friends resenting him for "doing this to her." Not how to cultivate friends of the marriage!

You are on target, ears, I am (was? prolly still am, but I'll work on it) more in an attitude of lack rather than problem-solving. At the moment I'm not feeling too bad though about him, thanks to a couple nights ago.

We both made the trip to Canada, cus we both have work to do here before the end of the summer, that has been delayed due to the job and move stuff. He also has the "Canada house" to put on the market and to pack up - most of the stuff here is his, I'll help, but it's mostly his decisions etc.

Right now he's just on a 2-day business trip, to visit a manufacturer of some material that is critical to our Canada project. He gets back Tuesday, then I leave Wednesday to go to a meeting of a new collaboration that I am joining and representing the new school in. This new collaboration is one of the first projects at H's new lab, so it's all connected. I get back Saturday.

Jayne, I know this is all stuff that has been already decided, but I just wanted to repeat what you already know, about needing UA time together to meet each others' needs, especially when your marriage has already been under so much stress, and now the move adding that much more. How can you two connect during this time, get your needs met within the marriage, and with friends of the marriage?

I have no idea.

UA is something I *crave*. I think that's why I'm so grateful for the other night. Is that sad?

But we seem to not get enough UA even when things are "normal", whatever that means.

Maybe it would help if I re-examined the definition of UA. What I want most is us sitting down together, talking; maybe a date night. That's very hard to schedule and to get him to agree to. Sometimes us cooking together feels like UA and RC. Maybe if we did more SF and RC things together, that would be times of UA?

SF and RC are great for UA. Date nights are important, too. What does he say about why he is reluctant?

I encourage you to read up on UA time again, time to meet the top 4 intimate emotional needs, ones you really can't meet outside the marriage the same way - SF, Affection, RC, and Conversation. When one of you is out of town, do you get Conversation time, like on the phone? What do you two like to do for RC?

We had a momentous talk last night, and one of the things that came up was about relaxation time. H claimed that he is due his down time, which to him is sitting on the couch watching tv, even falling asleep if he wants to. We agreed that he should have that. Then he went on to say that when he does that, both of us are on the computer, or doing some other thing. So we explained that, to us, THAT is our relaxation - not just watching a show. To me, that is the ultimate waste of time, cos there's always so much that needs done.

What's funny is D17 even pointed that out to him; told him that I can't relax because the house is never picked up, etc. (she then proceeded to show him all the ways he doesn't help, like dropping his socks on the floor, candy wrappers on the table, Qtips on the counters, and never picking them up but expecting us to do it - funny how the same things bug her that bug me)

Anyway, the point is that in his mind, he's not enjoying the down time because he thinks we should be enjoying it the same way HE does - just watching tv. So when we do the other things that relax us, even if we're sitting right next to him, he's not understanding that we ARE relaxing, cos he's not empathizing with us - only sees it through HIS filter.

Maybe there's a solution for you in there somewhere, lol. Discussing what UA means to each of you so that you can compromise.

cat, I'm getting a lot from what you wrote, both here and on another thread too. I just wanted to let you know, I'm processing and haven't had much time to write about it.

I think I'll write about part of it on the other thread that you're posting to, if I can remember which it is. Not to T/J, but I think it mgiht help the OP, since I kinda identify with her... I forget the name, but I think she started as wayward, and she talks a lot and her H clams up, or something... Or was it a guy, who talks a lot and his W clams up... and EE is posting that the OP is abusive too (so it must be a woman OP)...

But I completely understand (I think!) about not being able to relax when something else is going on... either when something needs to be cleaned, or if you want to "share" the tv watching experience, and the other person is sitting there but doing something else.

Just last night I watched a kiddie movie with my kids. I was also online. DS6b complained a couple times that I was missing things he wanted me to see, so I made an effort to be watching the movie more.

That wasn't really your point. The UA, I am thinking on that, and will look for opportunities to discuss with H various ways of having UA, outside my original limited definition of conversation and date night.

Oh, I almost forgot, the original reason I came to my thread to post...

I want to vent just a little.

Well ok I also want to use the ultra-cool new mumble-meister!

But anyway, since this is my own thread and prolly only my friends are reading... I'm getting a bit triggered by a BH poster who seems totally and completely out for blood due to a very recent D-Day. Since he's asked that only K and JL really post to him, I don't want to post any more to him. Others are still posting to him, including you too, cat; I'm glad! I just can't. I worry about his kids though. This vengeful atmosphere seems very unhealthy. I fear this may turn into another one of those sitches where the BH keeps the FWW groveling for years. Maybe y'all can help; I can't.

Oh well. Rant off.

I almost missed ears' post too!

When we are not together (in the same house) then we have an agreement that we will speak to each other on the phone, even if it's just to say goodnight. It usually is just to say goodnight, cus H just isn't into talking that much. He usually calls after he's done everything else to get ready for bed, and is ready to fall asleep. Last night I tried asking about where he went for dinner, who with, etc... partly cus with so much time on MB I half wondered if he'd been with any woman. Course not. He didn't much want to tell me, but really it's just that he hates to talk. He did relent (I could hear his voice noticeably soften, like he decided to go ahead and humor me for a few minutes) and he told me he and two other guys from our project (I thought only one would be there) and the folks from the company all went out to a nice restaurant and he had lobster.

So we talked for maybe 5- 10 minutes, including a little discussion about meeting with the realtor. That's a lot for him.

For RC, we like to do outdoors stuff, especially mtn biking for him. I was into biking before him, and used to go on century rides, and looked forward to doing such things with my H. But just in the past couple years have I been strong enough physically, after everything that happened when the kids were born, to ride a bike.

Usually when we do outdoors stuff it's with the kids, so that doesn't count as UA, does it?

I like it when I cook and he helps. We do things like make homemade sourdough pizza together, I do the crust and he does the toppings. We did that a few nights ago. Does that count as UA?

He seems to be ok with date night, as in dinner and a movie, but I don't think that would be his favorite thing to do.

Well I can't seem to find the thread I was talking about... I may have been confusing VG with someone else and mixing them all together.

Anyway, cat, I really benefitted form your posting about how your H talks so much that you shut down. I'm trying to pay attention, to see if any of that goes on between my H and me.

Also, the bit about abuse and following someone to continue talking to them when they are walking away, that's something that our MC told me I needed to stop, a couple years ago. I very seldom do that any more.

According to our MC, H should always have the right to say he needs the conversation to end, or pause. He owes it to me to give me a time when we can resume, though.

I think anything you do together that makes warm fuzzies counts as UA and RC. Since you're newly moved, maybe you could go exploring once a week, to get a feel for the place.

I know who you're talking about, and I can't remember the name, either. EE makes really good points, but I think that sometimes he's just too fiercely determined to protect the man's side at all costs that it dilutes his message. I also think he has a really hard time emptathizing with a weaker person. Someone who's been beaten down mentally, doesn't trust themselves, is afraid, or is simply shy. These are things you can't just shrug off and do the right thing. Many of his posts make sense for a strong person, but not a victim. It can get frustrating reading him.

The shutting down I was talking about was mainly in terms of PA behavior, not just someone who talks a lot. If I felt safe, I would tell my partner I need a break from his talking. But if the talking involves questioning my thinking, telling me I'm wrong, joking about my decisions, going behind me and redoing what I've done...THAT is the shutting down I mean, where you have to, to protect what little self-esteem you have left. I doubt you'd be in such a case.

That other guy, the one out for blood, did you sense the same thing I did, that he basically just browbeats his wife by being so much more dominant than her? I mean, if his normal life is ANYTHING like his under-stress life, I'd be afraid to live with him. I just see constant manipulation and getting to be right. That's why I tried to gently suggest he consider that he may be doing that; he probably doesn't see it.

ETA: vintagegirl

Jayne, what about internal focus, on living by your values regardless of whatever is going on around you? I don't think folks act out of owing to someone else. I did used to believe that, that I could earn H's affection by doing kind things. I set up myself fo a lot of dissapointment and resentment that way. Today I think people act from their values and priorities. How about asking him to choose to make the marriage a priority by trying a communcation exercise together. Or asking him to do something fun with you, like [insert here]. How about thourhgtfully requesting a time to resume, and then let go of the response.

I like what JL said to Telly last week about us being in our marriages because we WANT to be. I thought about it, and I really do. Not just because of the kids. But because this is what I want for my life.

Sorry to say this, but some days I don't, and I try to suspend my judgement on those days. They say that when it's over, you really know it in your heart. And I can tell you, jayne, that I'm not "done" today. I don't think you are, either. I think you really do want to make a great life with this man, and that you have what it takes to change the dance. What do you think?

Yep, ITA.

Ya know, if us women here had a thread that so blatantly bashed men, boy howdy would the guys be all over it saying how unreasonable we were being!

The thing about being kept in the basement and... well frankly, that's just horrid.

I'm starting to hope he goes back to Plan D after all.

Jyane, I trigger to the neverending "make 'er pay" attitude I see too, so I'm NOT going to go look for that thread. If those folks actually ever read SAA to get Dr.H's message in there, it's not about vindictiveness and spitefulness. Making someone suffer, just because someone gives you the power to. Like, we all have kids, but do we drag them by their hair from one end of the house to the other, just because we can? Of course not! We love them and treat them tenderly and carefully, because they are defenseless. It's about building a great marriage for both people.

Did he say this? It's hard to know what it is there, what that block is. Good for him for choosing connection, anyway? Were you delighted? Did you share it?

And I forgot to say, jayne, thanks for sharing the cool stuff! Stuff you can build on. What ENs does cooking meet for you two? UA time? FS? RC?

What did y'all do for date night when you were dating? My favorite isn't dinner and a movie, because it's not much talking. What about dinner and dancing?

Jayne, someone, I think it was you, had a post that really got the wheels turning for me today, but I can't find the thread it was on. So I hope you don't mind if I put it here. I think we trigger to those BH "make her pay" threads because WE feel like we have a gatekeeper in our lives, our H, who has the power to punish us edlessly, until they are good and ready to stop punishing us. When really, it is only the way we respond to them. *Our* behavior, behavior we can become aware of, accept, and take action to change. We can feel confident deep in our bones that our lives have NO gatekeepers, that our lives can be as full as we want them to be.

Their actions and words and limits are theirs to own, about them and what they wish for in their lives. They're not happy? We have a plan for that, it's called thoughtful requests and negotiation. Oh, they're not willing? Rather sulk? DJ? Stonewall? Demand? AO? That's not my problem to own, Jayne. Never was, no matter how much I had told myself that. Separate and equal. I've got boundaries, and it's up to me to recognize them and enforce them. We can do this!

Edited to add: We're equal. Both have legitimate concerns. If we work together, we can find the win-win solutions. We owe it to our marriages to stop settling for solutions that we are not enthusiastic about. We've got to stop building that Wall. We can work together and do this.

Ok... I'm going around in circles it seems, with balancing the Thoughtful Requests and H&O and boundaries... I can't think of any way to enforce my boundaries that doesn't seem like petty retaliation. Maybe what I'm trying to set as boundaries, is actually trying to get H to change... I'm getting all confused.

Reading the Giver/Taker threads, and the Renter/Buyer threads...

Right now I *feel* unloved, ignored, disrespected.

I feel anger. It feels like anger at H, but maybe it's anger at myself for tolerating certain behavior, like IB and lack of POJA. So that seems like a boundary thing, right? But how do you enforce a boundary of POJA and no IBs? What's the consequence, except retaliation or withdrawal?

There's so many different aspects or approaches, I don't even know where to begin.

Yesterday we were in Ottawa for H to file for a passport renewal, so he can apply for a work visa. After, we were doing touristy things. We discussed what to do, the discussion was initiated by him; we decided to walk around the Parliament Bldg but not buy tickets for a tour, so that we'd have time to go to at least one museum, which I thought the kids would enjoy more. He suggested that plan, and I agreed, stating what I thought about the kids' preference. At one point I hung back to take some pictures and they went on ahead... when I found them again, H said he'd bought tickets for us all to go on a tour that started in 45 minutes. Which basically meant the whole rest of the afternoon, because 45 minutes wasn't enough time to go to a museum, and the tour ended up lasting until it was too late to go to a museum. When DS6b complained about his feet hurting, I asked H to carry him. H refused, saying that his feelings mattered also. I smiled and admitted that his feelings matter also... but, later in the tour when the kids really needed to be picked up and carried, I ended up doing all of it, taking turns with the kids... Ok, my choice... but they're kids, how can you not place their needs above your own wants? They were honestly tired, it was a lot of walking, and 6a had had the hiccups off and on for two days and at one point I even thought he was gonna throw up.

This happens a lot, when we're out somewhere it seems H never carries the kids, and I do. How do you apply separation between his choice and my choice to a situation like that? Honest question, not sarcasm. Should I just accept that I chose to carry them, and shouldn't feel bitter that he didn't? Or (thinking of the Giver thread) should I reign in my Giver and not carry them? I don't think that's the answer...

When I tried to talk to him, he responded angrily and said I was impossible to talk to... which seemed really illogical to me, since I was the one trying to talk, and he was the one trying to not talk. He was also saying that he never told the kids we'd go to a museum. That is exactly what we did, even down to listing the different museums and asking them which ones they'd like to see. *I* find *that* impossible to talk to.

Later, in the car when the kids were asleep, I was working up how to best be H&O with how I felt about his IB of choosing the tour and not carrying the kids, etc. When he started getting his iPod and headphones out, I figured I better hurry and so I said that I wasn't trying to force him to do anything, that he had a right to do whatever he wanted, but that I wanted to let him know that when he does certain things like not keep his word, that I am in danger of losing my love for him and I don't want that to happen... I said "you're not listening are you?" He shook his head. I asked if we could talk, and he shook his head. I said, "well I tried, and I've tried to talk about it in the past, and I've asked you to let me know when you are willing to talk, and you don't come back to talk. I've even written you letters saying as much, and saying to let me know when we can talk, and you don't. I don't know what else I can do."

So, it's said that we are supposed to teach our spouses to treat us with respect; we are not supposed to tolerate bad behavior, we are supposed to enforce boundaries. If I just let this go, then I'm just teaching him it's ok to act like this, right? If I keep trying to meet *his* needs, then I'm rewarding bad behavior and being a resentful Giver, right?

I've tried talking. He's made it clear he doesn't want that. I've even said the bit about being in danger of losing my love for him. How many times am I supposed to say that?

How does letting go of his response figure into all this? Am I off-track and trying to make him change? Is this a SD? Do I need to learn to negotiate better? Do I keep trying to negotiate until I get what I want, if he won't POJA and doesn't want to talk about it?

I think aeri's example applies, to drop the rope. You're not enthusiastic about carrying them. The tickets were expensive, but lesson learned. How about being O&H that you're not enthusiastic about carrying them, and ask the kids if they can keep walking, or do they need to go back to the hotel or house.

You said what you had to say, jayne, that's what O&H is about. Like I said yesterday, I said what I had to for my peace of mind. You can't MAKE this man be a partner to you. That's his decision, whether to partner with you in a way that keeps you out of withdrawal or not.

What is the fear of withdrawal? Not everyone is wired the same way, jayne, but I think you're a woman who can be in withdrawal and set boundaries around yourself so you don't fall for another man. What do you think?

What if withdrawal wasn't good or bad, just information? A temporary state so you can get the confidence and solid footing that you need to FIGHT for your marriage? What do you think about the 180?

If you look at aeri's story this weekend, the withdrawal kicked in as good information. Her H heard it, and repsonded. They can work from there to find more productive ways to communicate to stay in intimacy.