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Hey Melody, I wanted to get your thoughts but I didn't want to hijack that other thread. Others are welcome to chime in.

You've talked about Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders a number of times. It makes sense and I get it. But I'm wondering if there aren't exceptions to this. Basically what I'm getting at is that at my age and stage in the game, I really don't want to get married again. I absolutely love the idea of marriage, but sometimes I feel like I'm the only one that does. It is certainly not supported by society here. They don't care who was the one that ended the marriage or why. Essentially, you stand up in front of God, your family and friends and make promises that have no legal consequences if they are broken and no recourse for the person who has been wronged. There are no other types of contracts in this country like that - if you fail to pay your phone bill they cut you off but if you fail to fulfil the obligations of your marriage - nothing. The losers lose half of their possessions, time with their kids, all of their in-law relatives, a variety of friends - and countless other tangible and intangible things simply for having faith that a promise was a promise. In other words, I'm pretty much disillusioned with the whole concept and don't feel like society supports it anymore.

Nevertheless, I do want to find a long term relationship and share my life with someone again. The legal system gives you the same "rights" as a married couple once you've lived together for 6 months. Only you don't have to go through the process of becoming part of each other's families or signing contracts that have no meaning. You don't have to make promises in front of people who aren't going to help when they get broken. I just don't want to go through this again. I'm past child bearing age. The only issue is, can living together without marriage be something other than a renter? Or, perhaps it's me that wants to be a renter?

I'm really looking at more of a philisophical discussion on these matters. I'm not asking for advise, nor am I making any decisions. It's just that while I understand the buyer/renter concepts, I also think that not all people want to get married. Are there situations when it is ok to NOT want to get married?

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To me, it comes down to this question: which do you treat better, a house you are renting or a house you are BUYING? Most people treat a house they are buying much better than a house they are renting. With a rental, they just stay until something better comes along; when you own a home you do what it takes to make it better.

Just ask yourself which you value more? a rental car or a car you OWN? I place a much higher value on a car that I had to put a down payment on, pay insurance on that is in my name on the title. A rental car is just a rental car. I have no investment in a rental car. It is easy come, easy go and I have no skin in that game. I can dump it off at any time and be on my way. I figure if someone can't be bothered to even go down to the courthouse and get married, then they themselves don't think much of the relationship either.

But here is Harley's main objection to shacking up and I agree with him. When one lives together, it is not a committment for life, but a TEST to see if it works out or until something better comes along. That is a very important dynamic to understand.

Because a person who is just TESTING the waters to see if he likes it is going to have a very different attitude from a person who has made a decision and is committed to that person. That is because the person who is committed for life will do what it takes to make the other person happy and the other person will only stay until something better comes along.

I think with marriage comes an important mental outlook that one doesn't get with shacking up. I know that if someone came to me and wanted to buy my car but wasnt willing to make it legal, I would not take him seriously. I feel the same way about my life.

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You don't have to make promises in front of people who aren't going to help when they get broken. I just don't want to go through this again. I'm past child bearing age.

I think the likelihood of this happening again are GREATER if you just live together than if you marry. Living together arrangements are much more tenuous and temporary than marriages. Women who do this tend to be emotionally invested while the man IS NOT. More often it is just a free sex arrangement for him and it is easier for him to move on.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on it. And studies do show that there is no advantage to living together:

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3 Reasons Why Researchers Say Living Together Before Marriage is Risky

<snip>

3 Warnings: Living Together Might Not Be Smart

1. Higher Divorce Rate
Perhaps the most compelling and widespread argument against living together before marriage is that several researchers say it increases the risk of breaking up. Virtually all studies of this topic have shown that the chance of divorce is significantly greater for married couples who lived together first. And in 1992, the National Survey of Families and Households found that, in 3,300 families, married couples who had lived together first were judged to be 46 percent more likely to get divorced.

2. Lower Quality of Life
When it comes to living together, more research suggests that the quality of life for unmarried couples is far lower than for married couples. Researchers David Popenoe and Barbara Dafoe Whitehead say cohabiting couples report lower levels of happiness, lower levels of sexual exclusivity and sexual satisfaction, and poorer relationships with their parents. Annual rates of depression are more than three times higher. And, finally, cohabiting women are more likely than married women to suffer physical and sexual abuse.

3. Living Together Doesn't Necessarily Lead to Marriage
After five to seven years, 21 percent of most cohabitating couples are still doing just that -- cohabitating, without getting married. In a new study by Popenoe and Whitehead, one of the top 10 reasons why men said that they are reluctant to get married at all is because they can simply live with a woman -- and enjoy the same benefits.

entire article





"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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A good Dr Harley article on the subject, excerpt:

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Dr. Harley: The number of unmarried couples living together has increased dramatically over the past few decades, and I expect that it will continue to increase. The rationale is simple: "By living together before marriage, we'll know how compatible we are." Presumably, if a couple can get along living in the same apartment before marriage, they will be able to get along with each other after marriage.

It's a tempting argument. After all, a date tends to be artificial. Each person is "up" for the occasion, and they make an effort to have a good time together. But marriage is quite different from dating. In marriage, couples are together when they're "down," too. Wouldn't it make sense for a couple to live together for a while, just to see how they react to each other's "down" times? If they discover that they can't adjust when they live together, they don't have to go through the hassle of a divorce. Besides, isn't it easier to adjust when you don't feel trapped by marriage?

The problem with those arguments is that marriage changes everything. If couples that live together think that after marriage everything will be the same, they don't understand what marriage does to a couple, both positively and negatively.

In my experience and in reports I've read, the chances of a divorce after living together are huge, much higher than for couples who have not lived together prior to marriage. If living together were a test of marital compatibility, the statistics should show opposite results -- couples living together should have stronger marriages. But they don't. They have weaker marriages.

To understand why this is the case, I suggest that you consider why couples who live together don't marry. Ask yourself that very question. Why did you choose to live with your boyfriend instead of marrying him?

The answer is that you were not ready to make that commitment to him yet. First, you wanted to see if you still loved him after you cooked meals together, cleaned the apartment together and slept together. In other words, you wanted to see what married life would be like without the commitment of marriage.

But what you don't seem to realize is that you will never know what married life is like unless you're married. The commitment of marriage adds a dimension to your relationship that puts everything on its ear. Right now, you are testing each other to see if you are compatible. If either of you slips up, the test is over, and you are out the door. Marriage doesn't work that way. Slip-ups don't end the marriage, they just end the love you have for each other.

What, exactly, is the commitment of marriage? It is an agreement that you will take care of each other for life, regardless of life's ups and downs. You will stick it out together through thick and thin. But the commitment of living together isn't like that at all. It is simply a month-to-month rental agreement. As long as you behave yourself and keep me happy, I'll stick around.

Habits are hard to break, and couples that live together before marriage get into the habit of following their month-to-month rental agreement. In fact, they often decide to marry, not because they are willing to make a lifetime commitment to each other, but because the arrangement has worked out so well that they can't imagine breaking their lease, so to speak. They say the words of the marital agreement, but they still have the terms of their rental agreement in mind.

Couples who have not lived together before marriage, on the other hand, have not lived under the terms of the month-to-month rental agreement. They begin their relationship assuming that they are in this thing for life, and all their habits usually reflect that commitment.

The Policy of Joint Agreement, for example, doesn't make much sense for a couple living together prior to marriage. "Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your friend," it is thought, would not be a fair test of your compatibility. A better test would be for each of you to do whatever you please, and then see if you still get along.

But a newly married couple makes a deliberate effort to accommodate each other, because they know their relationship will be for life. They want to build compatibility, not test it. So the Policy of Joint Agreement makes all the sense in the world to a couple who has set out to live their lives together.

It's true, that a couple who lives together can follow the Policy of Joint Agreement from the day they move in. They can commit themselves to each other's happiness as if they were married. They can overcome Love Busters that could destroy their love for each other. But couples who live together tend not to do those things because their month-to-month rental agreement does not demand it. They lack motivation to put each other first in their lives because they are testing the relationship. They're not sure they want each other for life, and so they are usually not willing to make the all-out commitment that the Policy of Joint Agreement demands.

When a couple has lived together without the Policy of Joint Agreement, it's very difficult to apply it once they are married. What they usually do is stay the course. They figure that their month-to-month agreement got them that far, so why change it.

Marriage has a very positive effect on a relationship for those who have not lived together, because they tend to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement without having ever heard of it. They know that they will be together for life, so they make an effort to create a compatible lifestyle from day one.
Living Together before Marriage


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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I am of mixed feelings on this issue. Unfortunately, the so called "no fault" divorce laws have made marriage commitments almost worthless. Your spouse can commit adultry on a daily basis. She can sleep with 10 different men in a month and it doesn't mean a thing when divorcing. The only consequence might come when child custody is considered, but even then, I have seen children awarded to women who move from one boyfriend's bed to another, several times a year.

On the other had, what is the point of living together, besides sharing expenses? I am not sure. As others have stated there is no evidence that it increases the chances of marital success. And there is evidence that is actually hurts the chances of success.

It seems to me that the best argument for living together is that there are some legal consequences that make marriage highly undesirable. For example, a friend I know lives with her boyfriend because her income will be added to his household income and then used to up his child support payments. As she says "If he should pay more then he should pay more because he is the father and it is his responsibility. My income should not be taken to pay for children who are not mine. If I am going to help support somebody else's children it will be those of my brother".

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Thanks Melody. I do see all of those points. I guess where I'm seeing a difference is not in the idea of living together BEFORE marriage, but living together INSTEAD of marriage. Auto raised a few points that articulate this better than I could:

Originally Posted by auto009988
I am of mixed feelings on this issue. Unfortunately, the so called "no fault" divorce laws have made marriage commitments almost worthless. Your spouse can commit adultry on a daily basis. She can sleep with 10 different men in a month and it doesn't mean a thing when divorcing. The only consequence might come when child custody is considered, but even then, I have seen children awarded to women who move from one boyfriend's bed to another, several times a year.

This is pretty much the norm here. Adultery has absolutely zero effect on child custody and short of proven sexual abuse by the OM against the children, the WW will get custody 99 times out of 100. Like I said, I LOVE the concept of marriage and everything Melody described above about being a buyer etc. But one does not have to "buy" to be married. One can leave at any time. And there are no consequences whatsoever, socially or legally.

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On the other had, what is the point of living together, besides sharing expenses? I am not sure. As others have stated there is no evidence that it increases the chances of marital success. And there is evidence that is actually hurts the chances of success.

I suppose my current feeling in thinking about this right now is more of a rebellious nature in the sense that, since society doesn't support marriage, at least not my idea of marriage, why not make my own personal arrangement based on decisions, promises and commitments made between 2 people only. In other words, reject society's view on marriage.

As for success, the articles Melody quoted are measuring success in terms of chances that you do get married. That would not apply in this case since marriage is no longer the objective. As far as happiness, standard of living etc., I think that's harder to guage as well - if we're talking about different objectives to start with. Certainly sharing expenses raises your standard of living above single people, if not to the level of married people.

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It seems to me that the best argument for living together is that there are some legal consequences that make marriage highly undesirable. For example, a friend I know lives with her boyfriend because her income will be added to his household income and then used to up his child support payments. As she says "If he should pay more then he should pay more because he is there father and it is his responsibility. My income should not be taken to pay for children who are not mine. If I am going to help support somebody else's children it will be those of my brother".

There are many other legal glitches that make marriage undesirable as well - including child tax credits and so on. I don't personally have any of these things but lots of people do.

I guess it boils down to my whole disillusionment with what I thought marriage was and what it really is today.

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There are still a number of legal issues that make marriage a reasonable plan.

Look at the case of two people living together multiple years, and one falls ill and dies. When the ill partner is in the hospital, a live-in has no right to make the important decisions about health care for their loved one, or even to see the person (depending on the hard-heartedness of the nursing staff).

In the case of death of the partner, the bank accounts of the partner will be in the possession of the executor of the estate, and unless provisions have been made for the live-in person to be beneficiary on 401k and etc, the person may receive little or nothing from the estate. This is especially true when an elderly person dies, their children will expect to inherit the bulk of the money, not to mention the trinkets and items you might consider part of "your" home.

One of the few cases that I can see where it's better not to marry is in the case of a widow getting social security or a pension based on their previous spouse's earnings. In general, it's a better financial bargain to be married.

A book I read recently about wealth-generation said that the absolute best financial advice is to choose wisely when marrying and stay married to the same person.

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Originally Posted by Tabby1
Thanks Melody. I do see all of those points. I guess where I'm seeing a difference is not in the idea of living together BEFORE marriage, but living together INSTEAD of marriage. Auto raised a few points that articulate this better than I could:

Tabby, Dr. Harley specifically addresses living together right here:

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It's true, that a couple who lives together can follow the Policy of Joint Agreement from the day they move in. They can commit themselves to each other's happiness as if they were married. They can overcome Love Busters that could destroy their love for each other. But couples who live together tend not to do those things because their month-to-month rental agreement does not demand it. They lack motivation to put each other first in their lives because they are testing the relationship. They're not sure they want each other for life, and so they are usually not willing to make the all-out commitment that the Policy of Joint Agreement demands.

And this has been the case in every shack up situation I have ever observed. The mentality is easy come, easy go. They are just there until someone better comes along. If they really were committed, they would just get married. And if they say, 'well, I don't want to get married because I don't want to go through a divorce,' doesn't that PROVE there is no committment? Why live with someone you know you wouldn't marry because of potential divorce in the first place? If divorce seems imminent and anticipated, the problem might not be marriage, but THAT MAN. Marrying with that kind of attitude indicates a bad choice, IMO.

I am not saying there is anything WRONG with a month to month agreement, as long as each partner understands they could be abandoned for something better tomorrow. Easy come, easy go.. A grown up has every right to enter into such an agreement as long as she/he is willing to take that risk.


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You raise some interesting points Happy. In fact, they could be used to argue both sides. For one thing, adult children of divorced parents seeking to embark on a live-in relationship would have some protection (depending). Here you can put common law spouses as your beneficiary for anything that is declared. The house would automatically go to the common-law spouse, even if it is not in their name. Other property (bank accounts etc.) would go to the kids unless otherwise stated in a will.

As for power of attorney, that would go to adult children unless you have one written up with the common law spouse. I don't see that as a bad thing - my DS is a good kid but not everyone would feel comfortable putting their welfare into their children's hands.

Also here a widow gets her H's pension regardless of whether she remarries or not so there's nothing to stop you from remarrying.

And anyone who has been through a divorce can certainly see this:
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A book I read recently about wealth-generation said that the absolute best financial advice is to choose wisely when marrying and stay married to the same person.

And I do see all that Melody Lane is saying and I agree with the quote. If I knew then what I know now, it would be my motto. But I'm not starting out any more - my ideals have been crushed and crushed again. So perhaps I'm just trying to redefine things so they fit better with the way the world works.


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