I have started my own thread after posting to CIM on her similar situation with her husband having an affair with her sister.

Two years ago I noticed my wife seemed to be very distant to me and began converstions which led to her eventually confessing to a LTA of about five years with my own brother. On learning of this I confronted him with the information. He tried to lie about it however my wife told him that she had confessed and he eventually admitted it and ordered us off of his property when I told him that his wife deserved to know.

I had suspected something was wrong for years however they had both denied it and when I told my parents about it they insisted that nothing could be going on. My wife and brother had always teased and flirted with each other however I had never dreamed that they could be capable of something like that...

After the truth came out I began searching for help and came across which literally saved my life. It is incredible the pain having two people who you love commit the ultimate betrayal. My brother is ten years younger than me (five years younger than my wife) and I had helped raise him because my father was working two jobs and really wasn't available to do things with us. The feeling that I loved him that much and to have him do that to me was absolutely the worst thing that has ever happened to me.

Using MB has helped my wife and I to develop some coping skills however she really doesn't understand the depth of the pain of having the OM be your own brother. I honestly can't see a picture of him without thinking of them having sex. Just hearing his name spoken causes me pain.

It would help us tremendously if someone could help us to find a way to explain to the my father particularly why the family can't go back to the way it was. I have tried giving him the MB concepts and theory and he just won't listen to any of it. So now my own father blames me for this mess even more than my brother (or my wife for that matter).

I also need help to get my wife to commit to the marriage. She thinks that there is no hope and that it is only a matter of time before this breaks us up due to the incredible pressure. She needs to know I have made my decision to stay and that she can feel safe in commiting to the relationship.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!

There is no way to make you father understand. You and your wife can NEVER be around your brother again. Your brother is a despicable human being for what he has done and nothing will get your dad to understand that this is not your fault. The fact that your dad doesn't understand is more a reflection of his desires than his ability to process this. He WANTS the family together...so, he is pushing towards that end.

I think your wife is most likely right about this eventually causing a spilt.

Can I ask why you decided to stay with her after such a betrayal?

Do you have any children? If so, are you sure they are yours?

Jim - I tend to agree with medc on this one.

If you want to try to explain this to your father you could ask him why your "flesh and blood" brother thought it was okay to have an affair with YOUR wife, and not just ONE time but over an extended period of time.

Your brother could both cheat on HIS wife and with his brother's wife when he COULD have just said "No," tells everyone that he was a willing participant and it's NOT all your wife's fault, let alone any of YOUR fault.

This man committed the moral equivalent of premeditated murder, over and over again. If you father can't see that, then the only realy hope I see for your marriage is to MOVE far away and sever all contact in a "leave and cleave" manner.



Leave and cleave. You and her "against the world" if that becomes necessary.

Thanks medc for your reply. I really think that your information on my father is correct. He does "get it" he just doesn't like it. How do I get him to not feel anger and resentment toward me for requiring NC between the two which affects all family get togethers?

In answer to your question why I decided to stay it hinged on several aspects. I had asked her for a very long time what was wrong. Why it seemed we could only get to a certain degree of closeness and then the walls would go up. It had come to a head and I told her I really couldn't take not knowing what was wrong. She had very simply told me I can't tell you or you would never forgive me or want to be around me ever again. She and my children mean the world to me. I told her that regardless of what it was if she came to me in Christian confession and repentance I would do as Christ has asked me to do and forgive her. It would not break us up. To her credit she has not had contact with him and has never thought "I should just get over it" for the family to be together. She has done everything I have asked for in regards to letter of NC and she has written letters of apology to the family. She is just so afraid that we will not be able to overcome this and pulls back out of fear.

I do have four wonderful children who now never get to see their cousins except for in school. I do not think anyone can ever know for sure that their children are theirs without DNA testing however over the years it has been obvious to me when my wife was hiding something (I didn't always know what however!!!). I have specifically asked on occasion for her to obtain DNA testing for the children and she has no problem at all with it and has even offered to pay for it herself to assure me. I may take her up on it depending on how the rebuilding process goes.

Do you have any advice on how to reassure her to commit herself totally to TODAY and quit worrying about what has happened in the past? If I have a totally commited to rebuilding wife I can heal past the past...even the loss of part of my family.

If your wife is a believer in Christ also, then HE has said it best. "Neither do I condemn you." And He had the right to do so. "Now go, and leave your life of sin." Begin TODAY, and each TODAY. Remember, for those who follow Him as their Lord and Savior, He took ALL of our sins and paid their full price for us so that we COULD have all of our sins forgiven by God.

God bless.

Thanks ForeverHers. I believe my wife is struggling with her faith at this time. She is angry at God because she sees my brother (who did not confess or try to turn his life around) getting off scot-free while she and I have suffered and been cast as the trouble makers in the family. I am afraid she sees it as 'do what's right and see what happens!' At that point she forgets that this is a natural consequence of her previous behavious and that you cannot shelter someone from the consequences.

My father refuses to confront my brother and refuses to work with any kind of scheduling of events that will not allow my brother to attend. The worst part is that he is slowly cutting himself out of our lives by not calling or coming to visit as he used to do. The tension is so thick when we are together you can almost cut it with a knife. Why can't he put the blame where it belongs??? You may be right that it may be necessary to put some distance either actually or emotionally between my father and ourselves.

My .02 cents worth - don't get the DNA test. What possible good could come from it? Those are your children. Period.
what if the test showed that one of the three had a differnt DNA? Would that child be any less yours?

God bless you and your family.

Just had another thought - call the Harleys for a phone counseling appointment. That will help you to come up with a good plan for recovery of your M. It is not cheap - but definately cheaper than a D.

Jim_Flint,

First, how long ago was the affair discovered. I sense it was two years ago from your words, but that doesn't seem consistent with some other things you said and hinted at. So would you please post a time line of when the A started, when it was discovered, what actions have been taken since it was discovered.

Now to reply to your question. You asked


First I think you are asking the wrong question. It is NOT your job to get your W to commit to the marriage. That is her job. Frankly, if she will not commit, that tells you a great deal. An uncommitted adulteress who has been in a long term affair with her H's brother for over 5 years, is not a good candidate for a W. It is really that simple. You can ignore this FACT all you want but your heart, your love, will not make it different.

She needs to decide to commit to this marriage (by the way do you, she or anyone else you are talking to know what is meant by commit? That term needs to be well defined by all concerned). You have no control over her. I would however recommend that you consider leaving this marriage if she is NOT committed to saving it and making it better.

Does your brother's W know of this betrayal? If so what is happening there? Is he divorced? If so, it is possible that your W is pushing YOU to divorce HER, so that she can say she tried and then go to your brother. Speculation I know but you have not provided a lot of important information.

In short you do not make your W commit. You can decide to be committed or not, that is your call. She is responsible for the rest of this mess.



I presume you have told her that you have made your decision. I presume your actions are consistent with this decision. If these two presumptions are correct, then SHE KNOWS. Her knowing isn't what is really holding up her commitment. If discovery is recent, then she is likely in withdrawal pining for the OM.

As for the issue of your father, you need to explain to him your issues. One your W betrayed YOU. Your brother betrayed YOU and his W, AND his whole family. You cannot be around him, it is your father's call on who he blames, but you know the truth and he has been told the truth. You have not mentioned what your mother and other family members think.

You are right to not be around him, and surely for your W to not be around him while you two are married.

Please read more of the articles on this site. And provide some more details so that we might offer you more accurate suggestions.

God Bless,

JL

Just Learning, Thank you for your reply and sorry for any confusion in my post. The affair was confessed to me on July 3rd, 2006. It had pretty much died a natural death prior to that according to my wife. That may be true as I had not seen the level of flirting and teasing that used to go on in recent times. I had suspected something was wrong for years however she refused to admit what it was. She told me when she confessed that the affair was intense for about five years. She was not exactly sure when the affair started as she did not recognize an EA as being an affair at that time. She does now. She says that the affair was mostly EA however there were periods of sex involved during the intense time of the affair.

After finding MB I shared with her the concepts and she agreed to write a letter of NC to my brother. She also wrote a letter of confession and apology to my brother's wife. She has written letters of apology to my parents (Mom died in 2007) and to my sister who has been wonderful and supportive of us. My sister has also tried to get Dad to understand that there can be NC however he refuses to accept that. My wife has also tried to get my father to understand there cannot be contact between her and my brother.

My brother has been a complete failure as an adult. He refused to take care of his and his first wife's children when she gave him custody. He has beaten his current wife and been charged with Domestic Violence and she still stays with him. My wife says one of the draws to my brother was the fact that they considered themselves both failures and commiserated the fact with each other. My father refuses to see any of this as a problem with my brothers character and integrity.

I think that you made some very accurate comments about commitment and I am going to visit with my wife about them and make sure we are both on the same page about what we expect as far as commitment to the marriage. Thank you!!!

If your father insists on scheduling family gatherings with your brother then don't go! This isn't rocket science.

Can you get your wife to come here and post? We can help with some attitude readjustment.

Hey JF,

Sounds like you don't need your father or your brother in your or your family's life. They do not support your family! It probably sounds awful and I know it hurts, cutting family out, but truly if they don't support you & refuse to "get it", then it must be done.

If your wish is to save your marriage, then go do it - far, far away would be good.

Hi JF-

Just a couple of things that I wanted to comment on about this whole thing.

First, about your kids. As one of five adopted kids in one family, I can tell you first hand, it isn't biology that makes your kids "yours". My parents have modeled for me the love that God has for us when He says that He has adopted us into His family. My dad has said to us all our lives that he is "a rich man" because of his kids. That's a great thing for any kid to hear-no matter what age we are.

Second, about your dad and your little bro:

Have you ever seen the movie "Parenthood"? The dad (Jason Robards) keeps rescuing his loser youngest son and giving him second chances even when he knows his son will blow it. Sometimes it's just hard to face the truth. Also your dad may feel guilty about not being there for your brother and that's why he doesn't want to face the truth.

Either way, your dad must feel like he's between the proverbial rock and hard place. Exclude one son or exclude the other. Maybe it's easier to exclude (and blame) you because he knows you will be okay in the end. That's just my take on it.

Third, your W sounds like she is having trouble forgiving herself because of the complex consequences of this LTA. Well, that's part of forgiving-accepting the consequences of the sin (whether it's done to us or by us)-and asking God to help rebuild what has been destroyed. Not forgiving oneself is like saying "my sin is too big for you Lord" and that's not true. Has she gotten any IC for herself and the reasons she made the choice to have the A in the first place?

That said, you may have to make a choice.

What's more important, getting your dad to see the truth or your marriage? Besides, you can choose your family too. I should know.

Hope this helps.

Jim:

I have walked in your shoes for three years. It hurts.

My only living adult relative and my wife had a short affair three years ago. My wife and I have dealt with this by cutting him out of our lives. The way it is now is that I do talk to him from time to time, but my wife now has zero contact, period. As a matter of fact, she has only contacted him three times in the past three years for reasons she considered good at the time and I knew each time. Developing complete NC has been tough because it is family. She really wanted me to develop some sort of relationship with the cretin because he is my only living adult relative, perhaps as repentance or perhaps to mitigate her guilt, maybe both.

As I promised, I want to give you some insight into your wife's thinking, if how she feels and thinks comes close to the way my own wife feels.

My wife believes she cost me the relationship with my relative. I have told her that she didn't do it alone, he was right there with her. Their affair was a classic case of the slippery road starting with his pursuit of a closer relationship based on "Friendship." In other words, he was as much or more at fault for the destruction of the relationship as was she.

My wife is very, very concerned that I will never get over it. She is correct, I never will. The two most important and trusted people in the world (to me) betrayed me. It is that simple and that complex.

We have three kids. So what we did was build a new relationship on the ashes of the old one. And so far it has worked. We have a relationship that I believe will survive. At the same time, I am no longer the naive one. I know how fragile relationships are and I work at this one in ways I probably would not have considered in the past. So does my wife.

It seems to me that the one great obstacle to a better recovery of the relationship between you and your wife, simply put, is your father. He is being a flaming jerk. I do understand that parents will often pick the most needy kid, which your brother certainly qualifies for. This is parents with a poor idea of how to be a parent and how parents should do business. It is unfortunate.

It is based on guilt more than anything. Yet your father, by his attitude, enables how your brother does business. So yea, you dad should feel guilty, but not for the reason he likely has in his head.

So your father feels guilty that your brother is a mess and a cretin. Since you aren't, near as I can tell, he then puts the burden on you. This is an unreasonable position by any measure.

Your father's unreasonable attitude puts added pressure on your wife. She probably subscribes to the blood is thicker than water theory, so she likely "Feels" that over time, your father will help you to move on with your emotions instead of bonding fully with her, again. This is not an unreasonable emotional state for her to be in considering the guilt she is carrying around. Flight or fight mostly means flight for a large percentage of women (and males).

I don't know if you can ever reason with your father since he is not using his head, or even his heart, to formulate his position.

He wants a reset button to mitigate his guilt.

There isn't one.

You are in an impossible situation, just like me. There is no way you can restore any kind of relationship with your brother, whose lack of honor and integrity makes him a poor choice even for a brother. Excuse me for being blunt, but in my view, if a relative isn't someone I would choose for friendship, I am not at all sure I want them as relatives. I know too many cases of kids and siblings stealing from relatives to support their habits.

Honor is a two way street.

There are all sorts of biblical imperatives here and I am not qualified to discuss them.

Now it is that your father has forgiven your brother so many times, he expects everyone else to do the same. This is a load of garbage and once again, he isn't doing the right thing by BOTH of his kids placing you in this impossible situation.

In my book, your dad is the problem.

Larry

See - here's the thing - Forgiveness does not imply Reconcilliation and Restoration of the relationship in this kind of situation.

While forgiveness IS necessary, reconcilliation and restoration are not.

This is where a lot of parents screw up. Just because you forgive your kids does NOT mean you have to be a doormat, nor does it mean that you have to prefer the prodigal over the good ones. Yet parents unthinkingly do both all the time. Which is one reason for rotten offspring.

Larry

JF:

I'm one who asked you to post you own thread.

I hope you get alot of help.

It seems to me that your W is working WITH YOU to support your M.

Yes, she stepped out of it and threw mud all over it.

But she IS working with you now.

That is ALL that matters.

Yes, you need to exclude your brother from your life. Your Fathers wishes to the contrary, and no matter HOW much he "wants us all to get along" it just NOT going to happen. You can't handle that and you don't have to.

Leave it at your Fathers doorstep. Attend or decline to attend family functions do to your own circumstances. If you know you slimeball brother is going to be there, then you can choose not to be there, or go early and leave early. If others are upset by this, so be it.

You can't demand that your father SEE IT your way. He never will. You can only live your life so that it makes sense to you and your life.

It's difficult to cut important people out of your life. But you have to remove the toxicity of this from your life. You CAN be with your W for the rest of your life. You don't have to be with your father or brother. You can invite your father over to visit you. And if he is a bad guest, than you don't have to invite him anymore. If another guest was rude to you in your home, you wouldn't invite them back either. Establish YOUR boundaries, and if others do not like them, then so what.

LG

Here I sit, the atypical parent.

Have your dad call me, I'll explain........although he probably wouldn't like to hear what I have to say!

Here I sit, with both of my kids (S & D) and their paternal family PO'd at me because I won't let bygones be bygones. The OW went after S's 1/2 brother got pregnant married him. Back dooring my S's marriage. NOT!

It's been very quiet since I made "my" boundary clear. Oh, and when I did, my son slammed my front door so hard I can't believe it didn't fall off the hinges. Touched a nerve???

Rags. . .

Ok, I understand your ethics, morals and courage. I don't understand who the players are.


Who did what to whom isn't obvious from where I sit. Why was son mad at you?

Larry

Three years ago my S and DIL made a decision to reconcile. OW made life [censored] for the first year. OW then went after S's 1/2 brother with a vengeance, got pregnant, married him this March and had the baby in July. I call it "back dooring" my S's & DIL's marriage.

A week ago last Saturday they (my kids and their paternal family, as I'm divorced from their dad) decided to have a "family gathering". They all met up at a local restaurant to celebrate the "new" baby. GAG ME!!! How in the world my DIL sat in the same room as the OW and dined is way beyond me. DIL and OW now have the same last name. Lovely........

Now my S, DIL and D are all mad at me, nor speaking to me because I'm hollering NO CONTACT for life from the rooftops!

Got it. What a mess. And I understand why son was mad. I don't think I would want to be around after a DNA test on the new baby.

Larry

:MrEEk:

In my last post I mentioned I was going to talk to my wife concerning the wonderful suggestions and observations you all had given me.

Just Learning, I visited at length what commitment meant to each of us and our hope for the future. We are basically on the same page I believe. I want a future with her based on absolute truth and honesty and that meets both of our needs. I expect her to communicate to me in a healthy way if she feels I am not meeting my responsibilities in the marriage and I will do the same for her.

I also want each of us to have a desire to work toward a marriage that is first of all PERMANENT!!! I want her to know that any actions that we take will reflect on us FOR THE REST OF OUR LIVES!!! Therefore TAKE CARE OF THE MARRIAGE because it will be staring us in the face for the rest of our lives. I also told her I expect her to not carry the past horrible events (on both of our parts) into our tommorrows.

I want her to feel forgiven and I want her to forgive me my shortcomings in not being a better husband. That is what commitment means to me and she said that was exactly what she is hoping for also.

johnstwin, Thank you for your very personal feelings about the children. I agree that they are indeed mine regardless of what DNA they carry. I am hopeful they are indeed mine because of my wife's willingness to have them tested and even to pay for it herself. I also agree that my dad does see my brother as the needy one. He knows he will fail without Dad providing the training wheels for him the rest of his life. I shared with my wife the reminder that her feeling unforgiven is not in agreement with scripture that no sin is too great for his forgiveness.

Larry, Your situation is so similar to mine. I am so sorry that you have had to go through such a horrible ordeal.I agree that my father is the biggest obstacle in our recovery. He does enable my brother in how he does business. My brother has never been made to face his actions and their consequences. He would not continue doing them if he had been allowed to fall on his face from his actions.

In regard to blood being thicker than water I think you are probably right about her feeling I would choose blood relatives over her. I think she was amazed that I didn't abandon her. I need to make sure she knows the reasons I didn't.

bigkahuna, You are right that this is not rocket science. I do need to terminate the idea that my brother and I could ever be together again. The hard part for me is trying to save my father from holding onto my brother's hand and winding up being flushed down the toilet with my brother. I need to make my father understand that even if I ever was able to forgive my brother it DOES NOT mean there would be reconciliation or restoration of the family relationship.

Lousygolfer, You are correct that my wife is working with me to restore our marriage. I am so fortunate to have her WANTING a better marriage and not just existing in it waiting for it to destroy itself. We do have the ability to either attend or not attend family functions if my brother will be there. Would it work to split the day on the major holidays when we will be at other family members homes? How do I tell Dad he will HAVE TO tell my brother he will have to either come or leave at a certain time. My dad has been telling us that it will start at a certain time and then we are faced with having to tell him we can't come because my brother will be there. I guess I will just have to tell him that it will be that way or we just can't come...

Ragamuffin, Will you be my Mom????? Seriously you are the best!!! If more parents could see things as clearly there would be far less misery and pain due to adultery. I may take you up on talking to my Dad if he still doesn't get it. He may not like what you say but I and my wife sure would!!!

If anyone has some more ideas on how to excise the cancer(my brother) without killing the patient (my family)I would love to hear them. Also if anyone else is in a similar situation that would share their feelings I would love to hear from them. Thank you all and God bless each of you.

Unfortunately. . .


Can't be done by you. You are not the one who decided and made the choices. Both your brother and your father made their choices; so did your wife.

At this time, you have decided that the family is your wife. So long as your father makes the choices he is making, he thereby excludes himself from your family.

Where our situations are similar is;

My relative was and is a self important nit. He has never gotten the education to support his IQ. Thus, he lives in his own head without benefit of having enough there. He has been a wastral in times past as well as a drug addict. His grandparents picked him up and dusted him off at every turn, as did his mother until she got tired of it. Of course his mother is another story and as life has gone on, has become a less than worthy person in and of herself.

In other words, my relative is weak. So is yours. Why our respective wives would choose to have a sexual relationship with the cretins is a major mystery. I understand part of the story, but not all of it. My wife has attempted to explain how things happen and I guess I understand. The reality is that I don't, and I never will. Some mind games are beyond understanding.

I suppose that if women had the judgement we would like for them to have if we are to be married to them, then we would be expecting more than can be delivered.

I can tell you that during the affair, my wife had many, many second thoughts. She was well aware that she was pumping herself up to justify. She was well aware of the cretin's shortcomings. She says she was in a trap of her own making and simply didn't know how to exit. So she dug the hole deeper.

I guess that makes sense. What does your wife say? Presumably she is aware of what a louse she was screwing.

Larry

Larry, I understand what you are saying and it makes sense. My wife and I have to set our boundaries on what we will allow concerning our marriage and insist that they be honored. Whether my father adjusts his is up to him.

My brother is a life-long loser. He got a 15 or 16 year old girl pregnant and Dad more or less insisted that he marry her. More to save he and Mom the embarrassment than because they thought that marriage was the right course to follow. I always felt that he could support her and the child without marriage.

He then proceeded to have another child with her then divorce her. She was not emotionally capable of parenting the little girls and would up having a procession of horrible men in their lives. My brother then went into the military but couldn't hack it and begged his ex-wife to get custody so the military would release him early to care for the kids.

As soon as they did that he dumped the kids on my parents to raise and went out womanizing. My parents, my wife and I and my sister all helped raise the kids. Not him. They went to I believe 9 different schools (no kidding!) back and forth with their mother before the older daughter graduated. The younger child was killed in a car accident with her mother at the age of 16.

He has had numerous affairs on his current wife. He has beaten her and was charged with domestic violence. He actually came to my house drunk at 2 a.m. (after the affair with my wife had died but before she confessed) and told me how great the sex was with his lover and how he didn't know if he could go back to his wife as the sex was better with the lover and what should he do??? I told him to go home to his wife.

I did ask my wife why in the world she was attracted to him and she said very simply it was to hurt me and for the fun of the sex. She never thought of him as a possible husband. She said they commisserated being losers and had that in common. She also feels that that is probably why my brother had the affair with her also was because my parents had always bragged on me and thought I was successful. He felt that was a way to one up me by thinking every time my parents bragged on me "Yeah, but guess what? I'm screwing your wife!!!"

Interesting points. About the time that my wife decided to give in to the cretin's pursuit, she was at the point of realizing that she really was going to complete and graduate as an RN, BSN. She too had been told she was a loser at many points in her life. She made an observation recently that one reason for her affair might have been that she suddenly realized she was going to be a success for the first time in her life and therefore did what she could do to mess it up.

She almost succeeded. Hammerhead me decided that wasn't going to happen and I hauled her happy [censored] up and did what I had to do to make sure she could go forth and conquer. She did her part, without question. She worked her tail off. Now she is successful by any measure and a changed person because of it.

I don't think she likes her former self very much.

And yea, relative got even with me for things I had no idea I was guilty of doing. Losers do that, you know

Larry

Thanks Larry, You have the ability to share things from an unique viewpoint and it does all make sense. I do think our wives felt they were inadequate and losers and did want to feel superior to ANYONE and did achieve it with the low lifes they picked.

Does anyone have any thoughts on how to deal with the fact that some of the family knows about the affair and some do not? How do I talk to the rest of the family about why I can or can't go to a wedding, family reunion etc. without asking if my brother will be there and if so what time?

My brother's wife during a heated argument with my brother told his daughter and his son with her of the affair in anger i.e. "Your father is such a terrible person he screwed his own brother's wife"!!! Now they know about the affair and my own children and most of the rest of the family do not.

They just know that there is no contact between the families however they feel that it is due to my brother being toxic in so many ways (beating his wife, womanizing, drinking, etc.) to everyone including his own wife and children that I do not allow my family anywhere near him.

My wife is terrified of this fact coming out and has begged me to not divulge it to them or anymore of the family since she has terminated the affair, has no contact and is doing everything I have asked for to rebuild the marriage. I think that the particular nature of the affair i.e. the kids mother having sex with their uncle is particularly painful now that she is no longer in the fog.

If she was still in the affair I would have no problem with further exposure however at this point she would feel that it was meant to hurt her and could make her pull back from me after the wonderful progress we have made. Any thoughts?

Well, I can only tell you what I have done. The only person in my wife's family who knows is her sister. Sister is a real piece of work who basically hates my guts for complex reasons that have everything to do with where she sees herself on the food chain pecking order of life and where I see her. I don't suffer fools easily and hypocrites are easy targets

Yea, I know, I should be ashamed. I am not.

Anyway, the kids have been told that relative did something that really made me and wife angry enough that we told him to go away and come back when he grew up. No questions will be answered from kids.

A likely story would be that brother likes to hit on women both physically and for sex purposes. While he is your brother, you also have a family that doesn't need contact with someone who is that out of control. That would be credible.

I do understand your wife's concern and I would be as protective of her as are you and for the same reason. That said, since my wife's sister knows, I believe it is possible that tons of other people also know since sister couldn't keep a secret in box under threat of death by boga boga, it seems to me. Thus if brother's kids know, the whole world will eventually. This can be mitigated by the above story, which would muddy the waters, I think.

Larry

Hmmmmmm. didn't look at it quite that way. Thanks, made sense.

Larry

Larry, I think the statement that you recommended I tell family members ("I have a brother that likes to hit on women both physically and for sex") is a very good answer to state to the rest of my family as to whether we will or will not be able to attend. I don't see anyone arguing that he is not a good role model for the children.

It can be further elaborated to members of the family that I will not expose my children to that kind of behaviour (domestic violence, womanizing, drinking) and that I would like their assistance in making sure that there is no contact between my family and him. That we would love to be there if he either will not be there or at a different time. They can be told that there is no problem if his children or wife attend, just not him.

I think that the biggest problem with events is going to be the events that are scheduled to be held at a certain time i.e. weddings, funerals etc. They are usually supposed to be one in a lifetime events (funerals still are anyway!!!) and you only get one chance to be there. The idea of missing a family members funeral and being there for the rest of the family because he will be there is not a very good feeling...

You cannot stop people from gossiping. You cannot be responsible for what others say. At the end of the day, your wife must accept the simple fact that affairs and adultery is truly the gift that keeps on giving. Adultery, especially with a family member, is one of those errors of judgement that will follow her, you and your family for the rest of your lives, period, accept it.

Recovery can and should be worn as a badge of honor.

Parse the events; some can be attended by you alone. Your wife and kids do not have to go to funerals.

In point of fact, I suspect your brother will run his mouth. This again, is the price paid. Over time, you can train your relatives where your boundaries are. It really doesn't matter if one or more know the true facts. It does matter how you handle the likely knowledge, namely with dignity and obvious protection of your wife and family. And SHE YOU!

There may even be an event that by its nature would require both you and your wife attend, such as the death of your dad, where you might even have to sit close to your so-called brother. In that case, your wife and other kids can sit in a different place.

It can be handled. It is going to be uncomfortable. There is no reset button and getting around the simple facts of the situation. It is what it is. But you can hold things to an absolute rock bottom MINIMUM and make sure that your wife knows that is exactly what you are going to do.

In all this hoha, I do have a couple of recommendations for your wife. First of all, she has to recognise that as a human being, she is worth more than what she did. She must believe that she can be a better person for the trauma she caused and thereby grow up to become a responsible adult. This can be a real growth opportunity for her to attain that status that all too few attain and that is the designation of "Grownup."

My second recommendation is to not live in fear. She made the choices and running from those choices, bad as they were, simply makes it worse. The attitude "I screwed up real bad and I am gonna live it down and grow," is the only out she has to mitigate the outcome and consequences. This is what I told my wife and was at least partly successful. I say partly because unfortunately, my wife has never been able to completely shake the ghosts of past mistakes from getting free rent in her brain.

She simply stuffs them and moves on. Ugh. Yet she has cleaned up some and I hope she continues to do so.

Grownups are not always proud of everything they have done to get where they are. Yet treating the consequences of choices as a learning experience and a renewed dedication to honor, dignity, ethics and family can go a looooooong way to the restoration of self esteem, or the attainment of same if never had.

Larry

I am trying to come up with a way to communicate to the rest of the family that we can not have contact with my brother without waiting til we are invited then having to cancel based on whether he will be attending or not. He also has been very passive - agressive about it by waiting until the last moment to let anyone know so that we have no time to plan for the event.

I am considering a letter to the heads of the family that would state in a general way that my brother is toxic not only to my family but others also and that we cannot attend gatherings that he will be attending. Would that be successful or would they take that as my family dictating to them who they can invite???

The general format I am considering goes something like the following. ANY suggestions on how it could be improved would be appreciated.

"We will no longer be able to attend get togethers where my brother _____ will be present.

His behaviour of violence against his wife, womanizing, drinking and treatment of his wife and son have made it impossible to allow contact with my family. He is toxic to all and his own family is suffering because of it. His sons' difficulties are a direct response to the treatment of his mother and himself.

We would love to continue to attend all gatherings where he will not be present or at a different time.

Thank you so much for your help and we look forward to seeing all of you. We are hopeful that in time and with God's help this situation will someday change. God bless our family."

End of letter.

Any ideas?

"We will no longer be able to attend get togethers where my brother _____ will be present.

The adulterous affair he and my wife conducted has made it impossible to allow contact with us. My wife and I are working to recover our marriage, and his presence is toxic to our efforts. Every time I see him, it is like stabbing a knife in my own just-healing wounds, and terribly hard for my wife, too. His own family is also suffering because of this.

We would love to continue to attend all gatherings where he will not be present, or at a different time. We would never dream of trying to dictate who you ought to invite, but only want you to understand why we will be so careful about coming to family events.

Thank you so much for your help and support, and we look forward to seeing all of you whenever possible. God bless our family."

As gently as it's possible to say something like this, your other letter is a cop-out.

The only hope you have of gaining your family's support in this is for them to understand the full gravity of the situation. That means exposing your wife's part in this, too, but that is one more result of the choices she made.

Get it out in the open.

Where in all of that is the TRUTH? Did you forget that part?

If I got a letter like that, I would dismiss it as gossip and slander.

I agree with Neaks letter 100%

Just state your own personal facts: you can not attend functions at the same time as him because of his betrayel of you and your family.

People can respect you takinga stand on behalf of your own family.

But saying that you are taking a stand becuase of the way he treats his own wife - most people would say that it was none of your business.

Your letter comes across as a cop out. You are hiding the truth.

Mel, I agree that the truth should be put in the letter. I do, however, think that the other facts should be included as well. I would bet that others in the family are accutely aware of this guys actions towards his family.

The main thrust of the letter should be, IMHO, the affair. The inclusion of the rest just shows that in addition to the affair, the guy is a total scum bag.

"The inclusion of the rest just shows that in addition to the affair, the guy is a total scum bag"

I agree. The wife that messed with him is a total scumbag also.

True....and yet how is it going to help Jim for you to say this?

It will help him see that is brother is not the only scumbag here. The wife made the decision to cheat also. She does not love him. If any of this is real....

All cheaters are scumbags, and yes, her betrayal was worse than most.

I still don't see that angry, hostile-to-FWS posts are going to help Jim get where he wants to go.

SURE!!! I'm a freak of parental nature!

From my DIL today:

Since, from what Jim has posted, *so far* it looks like we are dealing with a FWS.

ummmmmmmmm a FORMER WW is not a scumbag and I don't think Jim will appreciate us calling his wife that.

Jim:

I had to think about this one for a few days. Your wife lives in terror that her affair is going to see the light of day. I understand that. She is ashamed as well she should be. I understand that as well.

As a person who has lived and still lives, in the shoes you wear, I am torn. Your wife will grow and become a different person from this personal trauma she choose to visit on herself and her family. Well, I believe she will and leave it up to you to evaluate where she is as a person.

I don't think a letter is the answer unless you are going to expose her and what she did to the world. I don't think a letter delving into the sins of your brother, about which everyone is aware, is going to do anything but lead to exactly what you are trying to avoid, namely more exposure you don't want for the sake of your wife.

When I suggested that you simply state that you do not wish to expose your family to your brother and his problems, I didn't mean write a letter. I didn't mean going into the details that everyone associated with both of you are probably well aware.

Your extended family is well aware that your brother is capable of horrific personal behavior at the drop of a hat, lacks self control and is a thorough cretin. No reminders are needed. That your brother has gone passive/aggressive on the subject of being where you are forced to see him, means that he is still taking pride in "I screwed your wife." He thus reinforces his lack of honor, integrity and character.

Perhaps a half measure (which will irritate Mel) might do in that you can verbally state that your brother did something you do NOT want to discuss as an emotional attack on your family and well being to the point where you don't want to associate with him, period, end of discussion and NO, you will not relate the specifics for any number of reasons you consider good.

Welcome to the world of affairs, which are truly the gift that keeps on giving.

Larry

Jim:

One other thought I have and that is your wife might be persuaded that full disclosure might actually help her personal standing. In other words, there is probably a lot more gossip floating around than either of you know.

Living down a major transgression can be achieved through the display of personal courage, remorse and clean living, among other things, which include wearing the badge of recovery and disclosure of what happened to anyone and everyone, kinda like addicts do. I have posted on this subject in the past.

Larry

Larry, Thanks so much for the ideas. They gave us several ways to look at the situation. If you or anyone else has some more ideas they would certainly be welcome as this has become increasingly stressful for us the last few days.

We have gone over what seem to be the two most viable options available which are letting them know by letter or verbally and who should be told and who should not.

My wife has been extremely upset that the details of why we cannot be around my brother are going to come out anyway due to several family members knowing including the children of my brother.

She has been very moody and almost seemed to want to pick fights and quick to suggest that maybe we should just go our own ways. She finally broke down in tears and told me she is so afraid she will lose me.... After talking to her about it a little more she finally admitted that she is terrified of it coming out to our own children what had happened.

She lives in fear everyday that I will not be able to deal with the incredible stress and the fact that she will not only lose me but the children will know the reason why...

She and I talked more about the living in constant fear and she feels that perhaps just going ahead and disclosing to the kids is the right thing to do. She is also scared to death of their reaction. I am so afraid however that she may blame me for this decision later on.

I mentioned to her that the shock of the disclosure will not last nearly as long if it is accompanied by a statement of ownership of what she had done, that all people make mistakes and that she will not let this define who she is forever and that this is the right way to deal with a problem.

That it is more important for the children to see how an ADULT deals with their mistakes and how when you find yourself in a hole to stop digging and do whats right. ( I know, I know but I don't know how else to say it lol.)

I would certainly like to hear some pros and cons on disclosing to the children and what their reaction to their mother might be following. Two of our children are grown and out of the home, two are still in school. Thanks to all.

TELL THE CHILDREN, YES.

TELL THE RELATIVE, YES.

LET PEOPLE KNOW THE UGLY UNVARHNISHED TRUTH ***edit*****

Stella...

I could sure use your Do-this-here's-a-specific-list advice on my thread. I read your posts about how you solve your probs without having your H actually "talk" about it. I'm sorry I'm still struggling with the same old thing, but if you wanna pop in on my thread I'd greatly appreciate it...

Jim-

I am reminded of King David's adultery and his murder to cover it up. Once David was confronted and repented, God continued to call him and man after God's own heart.

God hasn't given up on your W any more than He gave up on David.
And His forgiveness is complete: "As far as the east is from the west, you have removed our transgressions from us." Ps 103:12

No surprises Jim. You said it just like I (we) have lived it. At this time, losing you would be your wife's ultimate nightmare as would having her kids think less of her.

I am going to say it again in a different way. The path to full recovery of self esteem comes from courage, it does not come from living in fear. Recovery can be worn like a badge of honor, the elevation of someone who has committed near the ultimate sin and then exposed, repented and became a better person through the adversity of bad choices.

This hits a chord of sympathy that is part of the core of most people, especially those who have a reason to love the sinner.

Your wife must look deep within herself to find the source of her decision to cave in to her weaknesses. She must acknowledge to herself, if nobody else, exactly why she made the choices she made, without excuses, without rationalization and without calculation or effort to protect what must be a very tattered self esteem. Then she has to change herself to become a different person. It is that simple and that complex.

Once she has done this, she will feel calm, rational and at peace with herself in time. She can regain her pride and sense of self worth because she will have conquered adversity at a level most people have not faced.

Her own recovery will make an impact on you, I promise.

So at the end of the day, by following this narrow path, it doesn't matter who knows what she did, so long as those same persons know what she is doing about it.

Larry

Jim,

May I make a few recommendations with regard to the children and telling them. First I have forgotten how old they are. Let me assume that they are teenage or at least 12 or older. Younger really won't understand many of the nuances of what I am about to suggest.

I would like to recommend that you sit down with your W and discuss what characteristics you would like your children to have when they grow up.

Then I would recommend ways for them to learn these lessons with the minimum cost to themselves but with maximum learning on their part.

Finally, I would then recommend that you and your W decide on a strategy that maximizes the postive lessons to be learned from this betrayal.

Should you white wash what has happened or your pain? No. Should yo white wash your W's embarrassment and sorry for what she did? No.

Just to start the ball rolling, I think children need to learn the following things.

1. There are consequences for bad decisions.

2. Forgiveness is something that should be extended to someone who has sought it in word and action.

3. Marriage is complex and needs to be nutured often in ways we never realize when we first marry.

4. You and your W value your marriage and your family and are doing your best to protect it and rebuild it.

I could go on, but I think you will get the idea and actually do better than I could have.

God Bless,

JL

Awesome Larry, and completely fits univerally with not just this WS but, with all.

All Blessings,
Jerry

Jim

Perhaps my experience will help your wife. I'm am the daughter of a woman who kept the secret from her family for many years - and I witnessed the affair as a young toddler. Mom would always say I was imagining things if I tried to put the pieces together...

Finally I confronted her. I knew children don't imagine those kind of things. She finally told the truth.

I was relieved, EXCEPT for one huge thing - she had not taken the proper steps with her minister and this was EXCRUCIATING to me, as I knew it was a necessary step for her recovery.

I readily forgave my mother. But it broke my heart the burden she had carried for 20 years after the affair ended.

If you tell the children, tell them what you are doing to recover from it too - this will do more to put them at peace than probably anything else. On some level they already know.

Thank you all for the replies that you have given. It gives me a great deal of comfort knowing so many people are willing to take the time to help us with an extremely difficult situation. I have shared your ideas with her and she is very receptive to them.

Larry, I agree that she must acknowledge TO HERSELF FIRST the problems she was experiencing and correct them before she can ever feel like she is indeed a new better person that would never be capable of doing those things again.

I know that her feeling that the lack of self esteem that caused the affair being corrected would also assure her and give her confidence that she would not be vulnerable to it again because she has in fact asked me in the past "How do I know that I wouldn't do it again???"

Just Learning, I believe that the kids being shown that there are consequences for your actions by her confession would help the children to understand why our family is in such a mess. As it is they are so confused and do not understand any of it.

I also agree that it is a great chance to show them how you can be a better person after a terrible mistake by confessing and changing your life for the better by EARNING it rather than just having someone hand it to you on a silver platter by doing nothing.

Shinethrough, I think so too!!! Thank you.

KaylaAndy, Thank you for your personal story of what adultery and hiding it for so long does to a child. The burden my wife has carried for so long changed her completely and caused her (and all of us) so much pain...

I am hopeful she can see the need to unburden her heart by confession and let everyone see the wonderful person she is today and that I fell in love with years ago is indeed back. She has lived in fear for so long it will be a welcome change for her to start each day anew without worrying who will find out...

They will respect their mother MORE if she comes clean now (with you by her side) as opposed to finding out when they're adults. Don't think they didn't know something was off during that whole time. They did and do. Don't THEY wonder about the rift? I can almost guarantee you they know there's more to the story than what they're being told.

If they find out as adults, they just may turn their backs on their mom in resentment, afraid that whatever made her do it, might be in them too. Showing them how to forgive and recover early on will help them understand how a GOOD marriage works.

princessmeggy, Thanks for your for your reply. I agree that my children will hold her in much higher esteem for demonstrating to them how a mistake should be addressed and corrected rather than hiding from it in fear. All they know is that something is very wrong and the answers they have been getting do not seem to fit completely with what they have been told.

I read your story and it is incredible how far you and your husband have come. There seems to have been considerable resentment and entitlement present in your husband and for you to be able to overcome that much hurt gives us all hope!!!

Larry, Do you have any suggestions for ME on how to cope with the fact that I am going to have to attend some family business meetings at which I MUST be at and my brother will also be present??? I know you occasionally speak to your former family member and how difficult that must be for you... How in the world do you accomplish that without going to jail???

I absolutely hate the idea of breaking NC with him however it is either that or I have to watch my brother take my life away from me piece by piece. Is it ever possible that seeing me may touch some part of him that is still human??? That seeing me may actually make him remember that he has lost his only brother???

If anyone has any thoughts or ideas they would be greatly appreciated. Thanks and God bless.

Hi Jim-

This part of your post got my attention:


The first thought that popped into my head came from the TV show "It's me or the dog" on the Learning Channel. The trainer-a very proper British woman named Victoria (who arrives to train dogs in high heeled boots and perfect lipstick)-has a technique for barking dogs that I have been using on my Jack Russell. Simply turn to the side with arms folded and ignore the barking.

I think it might be a good response. Have as little interaction with him as possible. Address others instead of him. Avoid giving him any attention. This takes away any "power" he may have and you avoid getting riled up.

Since your brother is a bit of a "dog", it just might work.

Let me give it some thought. I have some ideas. Later on today

Larry

Jim:


My primary focus on my communications over the past three years has been to explain the lack of honor, integrity and morals with which he ran his life. He was very defensive at first, but as time went on, he began to exhibit some signs of humanity, with cracks that showed an inner core of self interest in preserving his view of how the world works, namely to his benefit.

Then as more time went on, he prostrated himself on the shaft of abject sorrow, admitting that he was dead wrong, explained his motives and apologized as best he could. He still showed some signs of holding back 2% of his tattered self esteem. He drops in little word tracks that indicate he wants more recovery than I am willing to give and certainly more than my wife will ever advance. She wants and will enforce, zero contact for life.

So I am not sure that our situations are exactly parallel.

I believe if it were me in your shoes, I would simply ignore him. If he attempts to force himself on you, I would walk away and do my best not to make a scene. If he forced you to say something, I believe I would use a very low but powerful voice and simply state, "You have shamed yourself, me and the family, get away from me and stay away from me for life. Is there something I just said you don't understand?" I have found the latter statement to be very powerful in expressing views.

If he persists, I would pick the largest and most aggressive relative in attendance and say to that person, "Get my cretin brother away from me by whatever means or I will be forced to hurt him."

Control your rage but stand your ground. This is going to run head on into your father's attitude, so you might want to clear that ground before it becomes an issue. A frank and open conversation with him as to the lack of reset buttons, over protection of brother helping create who he is and that you must for the sake of honor protect your family for the future as best you can; that you hate what happened, but that you had no part of the choices your brother or your wife's made.

I do recommend that you adopt memorized statements of your position. In the heat of discussion, you can sometimes forget the why and how you got to where you are and certain heated statements can poison a future that might be with your father and others while certain other statements will not. The idea is to put the burden on your brother.

For example, "He made his choices, forcing me to make mine. I have chosen to act with honor and dignity to protect my family from more of the poison." Say this in your own words.

Adopt the attitude that you have been forced to decide what to do based on choices what your brother and your wife have done in the past, that there is no reset button and by your brother's current attitude and conduct, are thus left with no other honorable choice but to cast him from your life, if not your heart.

See, you can forgive. But in that forgiveness, there is no obligation for reconciliation. In other words, for your father's benefit, which is the key to your situation, you can explain that you may love your brother as a brother should and you can honor your father's loyalty as a parent should, but you are under no obligation to clasp him to your chest so you can get fanged again.

"Dad, I cannot fault your loyalty to a son, him or me. And I understand and appreciate your situation fully. Please understand that it is not in me to take any more abuse from my brother. I cannot give him another chance to finish the destruction of my life that he started. And I don't really believe you want me to, or at least I hope you don't."

Guilt trip your dad to remind him that he has two sons and who started it. I would bet all I have that your dad is doing what he is doing out of guilt. Ok, then work it. It is your duty to your family and that includes your dad. He needs a reality check.

Larry

If you decide to expose WW. Then before exposing WW to family I would wait for the DNA test results.

How are you and OM/Bro connected business wise? Can you dissovle this agreement?

I want to say something here. My mother was married, had three children, then had an affair with her husband's brother...I was the result of that union. She divorced her husband and married my dad, and had another child, and they eventually adopted my oldest sister's child (she was injured in a car accident and couldn't take care of him).
The extended family cast us all out when the affair/divorce became known. It has deeply affected all of us.
My mother is now 86 and for as long as I remember she has been crazy. I believe guilt is what drove her over the edge. Her and my dad (I am told from my older sisters) were once deeply in love, but my memories are of her being a very unhappy woman, critical, self-absorbed, paranoid, and my dad, an alcoholic. My mother went on to become physically, emotionally, and verbally abusive to us children.
I grew up not knowing my grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, even though we lived in the same town. My older sisters were not even invited to their own father's funeral, which I find despicable no matter how you look at it. They didn't get to go for visits with him and he never paid child support. To my dad's credit, he raised and supported all of us kids and treated us all as if we were his.
The affect all of this had on our lives was tremendous. I hope you show your father my post and let him know how vital it is that the kids continue to have him in their lives, but that it is, out of necessity, going to have to be separate and apart from his other son. That was a choice that your brother made when he first engaged in the affair. I must say, however, that your wife is no less culpable than he is...for what is closer, a brother, or a wife? Both are about as close as you can get and you should have been able to have expected better from BOTH of them. You cannot change the past, but neither can you ignore it. The children can get to know their cousins on their own when they are grown. That your brother has not owned responsibility for his actions is deplorable. It is imperative that your wife AND your brother not only accept responsibility for themselves, but learn to forgive themselves...for the resulting continuing guilt can do far more damage to them and to all of the children than you can imagine. My mother is the most pitiful human being I have ever met and no amount of reassurance on our parts makes any difference. She is, by the way, a "Christian", but she has rewrote history to make it more palatable for herself, so she has not accepted and forgiven herself as God has.
Someone in this family, PLEASE think of the children! I grew up thinking I was the "cause" for this family breach because my sisters told me they "used to go see grandma before I was born!" Let all of the kids know this is not their fault and try to figure out a way they can keep some of the family relationships that ARE positive.
I commend you and your wife for doing your best to build a good marriage after all you have been through, for that is what your children need from you the VERY MOST, extended family or not.

Wow, I would take offense to that if you knew me and said that! All women are not the same any more than all men are!

I would be afraid of this coming to light by some other means. It depends on the ages of your children but I think it needs to be broached with them in a sensitive way, and better from your wife than someone else. Their cousins know, what's to stop them from telling them at some point? I definitely understand your wife's feelings, but that is a consequence of what she chose. Your standing behind her and your protectiveness will go a long way in helping this whole situation.

I wholeheartedly agree with Larry here, we love and accept the whole of the person, rather than just looking at the one action. Your wife is much more than just what she did a few years ago.

I would not state the reasons you list as the REAL reason is actually something else, although everything he has done has contributed to this culmination. Those who know him probably already know a lot of what he's done anyway and can draw their own conclusions. It just seems deceptive to list a reason different from your real reason so I'd leave that blank. I think the letter is a good idea as it lets people know you still want to see them and it clearly states your terms. Otherwise, they could assume none of them are important to you, which isn't correct.

Having had a mother who did this, I can say honestly that NONE of us kids hated or judged her for it. My family did not handle things right, but we all tried very hard to understand what took place. Kids are pretty resilient! (BTW, I was five when I learned about it, and I did not learn from my mother, but from my older sisters, and not in the best way). She would be amazed how freeing it would be just to let it go and deal with it...there is nothing worse than what she has already lived through, and she is probably harder on herself than anyone else could be! How I hope and pray she can totally let go of the past as she is forgiven and doing all she can now to do the right thing.

Well said!

It should have read "Some" women.

See it is that "Some" guys put women on a pedestal because that is where a lot of guys place their moms.

Larry

The Road, Thank you for your thoughts on the DNA. I am hopeful that with the progress that has been made with my wife the entire truth will be known and that those results will not be an item of contention.

The family business I spoke of was usual family business such as wills, durable power of attorney, long term nursing care, those kinds of things. It is not an actual business. Sorry for the confusion. Thanks again!

Make the choice to invite selected people to your home for things and not to go to the other events unless your sister can assure you that he won't be there. See if she will be willing to find out and let you know, thus not involving anyone but her, someone who already knows and understands the situation. Keep it very low key, less do-or-die.

If it's a large family, chances are your not being there while he's there and vice versa is possibly less noticeable to others than to yourself.

You don't have to offer information. Too often, we feel like we have to explain ourselves. Not necessary. If someone has the courage to bring it up, you can always tell them that you and your brother are just very different people and are simply not that close anymore.

And if he comes without notice, just silently pack your things and head home. Let your sister know what the game plan is ahead of time and just remind her not to explain anything unnecessarily.

Also, arrive at the gatherings earlier to help with preparation and to give your kids a chance to visit.

Johnstwin, I think you make a very good point. My brother has been getting his way with his "acting out" for such a long time that he thrives on the attention. I agree that taking him out of the spotlight is a good way to respond to him. Thanks!

Larry, Thank you so much. I do think that I am going to have to talk some more with my father and just let him know what my boundaries are going to be especially as far as protecting my wife and family from my brother's interference.

I think that your examples of position statements is excellent and will come up with a wording that works for us. It is still very tense and it would be very easy to erupt in a barrage of words that would only inflame the situation... possibly beyond all hope with my father.

I think a reminder that this can be as good or as bad as we all make it is in order to my father. He does need to know that there will NEVER be contact between my wife and brother again and that all of his thoughts to the contrary is not going to change it. He also needs to know that (as you mentioned) I did not start this mess, all that I can do is to react to what has happened to protect my family. Thank you!!!

Vows4Good, Thank you so much for sharing your story. You have suffered so much as a result of your mother and fathers' actions. To not be bitter as a result is truly a credit to your spirit and strength. Your personal experience with this situation sheds a great deal of light on certain aspects that we need to make sure are addressed to the children.

I will indeed show my father your post and explain to him through you that there is a life ahead for all of us however my family and my brother must continue to be seperated for life because of what has occured.

I do wish my father could understand that everyones lives could be so much better if my brother would OWN what he has done, accept responsibility for it, confess and repent from it. That would take the ANGER out of it and allow forgiveness to begin. It would not, of course, lead to reconciliation however I do think everyone would then be able to relax a little and begin to enjoy the rest of their lives instead of everyday's focus being on the problems that have been created.

My hope is that my wife will see that EVERYONE is saying the same thing. That confession of this will unburden her soul and allow her to start living without fear. She is a wonderful person that made a terrible mistake. My greatest hope is that she will forgive herself as I have her and that she will forgive me for not being a better husband. We have both learned so much.
Thank you all!!!

Vows4Good:

Your story has touched my heart in part because my own family dodged that bullet, more or less. And there is additional information that I think will help Jim_Flint resolve his problem with his Dad.


This is how I think Dad might be approached in Jim's case.

See, both Jim and his brother are grown. As adults (more or less) they make choices which then have consequences. Some of those consequences have long term effects on the kids of both the brother and Jim. Yes, and Jim's wife was a less-than-adult part of the process whereby they got where they are.

But, there is NO reset button.

All of the adults have the power to make choices. Jim's brother can make choices to have an adulterous affair with Jim's wife, who in turn made the choice to participate. Jim's brother can fail to "Own" his choice, throwing it in Jim's face that he screwed Jim's wife. Jim's wife can "Own" her failure to protect her weaknesses and own up to her responsibility to make things as right as she can. Jim's brother makes things even worse with his implied attitude that it was Jim's wife who spread her legs and forced him to screw her. Yea, right. . .

The extended family of kids have no power. Choices are made for them. And like kids everywhere, they know that something very wrong is going on. And like kids everywhere, they look inside themselves to figure out if they had a role in the sordid mess.

And what about Grandpa? Well, he fights for everyone to accept his prodigal son on good terms and for the family to forgive and forget so they can all be happy. He is in effect asking for all and sundry to clasp the viper to their bosum and ignoring the poison fangs waiting to happen, because his unrepentant son likes being a jerk, a wife beater and all around bad example.

And who is hurt most by GrandPa's attitude? Yea, the grandkids. GrandPa wants everyone to be happy and get along. What he really means is that he wants to be happy, to heck with everyone else.

GrandPa has forgotten the most basic of life's lessons; you can't fix stupid. And his wayward son is clearly, stupid. Not only that, he is somewhat evil, narcissistic and a bad influence.

There are ways to make life as normal as possible for the kids, but it will take GrandPa going along to make it happen. But it looks like GrandPa is eat up with guilt or whatever, to the point where his own desires to protect his own feelings and those of his stupid son instead of honoring the honest obligations of his smart son, is gonna get in the way of protecting the true innocents in all of this, the children of the family.

Out of adversity, you look to see who is doing the right thing;

Jim is doing the right thing as best he can. Jim's wife will pay for her stupid for the rest of her life, yet she seems to be doing the right thing and live down the mess she helped create. I hope she will continue. In looking at this sordid family mess as I looked at my own, I identify the brother and HIS father as being the problem.

Jim's father and the GrandDad of the bunch needs to be both and not just the brother's enabler. Enabling brother to be who brother is, drills down to being the source of why brother continues to be unworthy of associating with decent people.

GrandPa needs a wake up call. Brother is beyond redemption. It is what it is.

Larry

I agree with you...I am afraid I wasn't clear enough with expressing my point of view...it would be great if Jim could get his father to see the light, so to speak, but if that's not possible, well so be it. They cannot allow his father to manipulate them into doing what they know cannot be...they cannot allow further contact with Jim's brother. Even if this A had not occurred, I'd have to ask why anyone would want him as a role model around their kids. This cannot be one big happy family and it has not been one big happy family.
But thank God the kids still get to grow up in their home with both of their parents modeling good behavior...none of us grew up in families without problems, but to see parents overcome and work through their problems, THAT is what we need to see demonstrated, for kids to learn how to grow up and do the same. And thank God Jim has his sister and her family that will still be Aunty and cousins, etc. to them. If it reaches the point where Jim's brother's kids taunt Jim's kids, it might be best to relocate...just a consideration.
I think Jim's wife will find once she has been completely open with all concerned, it will be a relief...and it will be more under her control how it comes out, rather than letting gossip define the outcome.
Being as they are two years into recovery, and with the attitudes they have, they have every excellent chance of making their marriage not only work, but stronger for having learned so much in the process.
I can't give enough kudos to Jim for his outlook, he is an amazing person.
And Larry, you have offered so much good advice here, Jim is lucky you found this thread and shared from your experience...it helps to have someone walk through something with you who understands and relates.

Vows:

I was thinking while putzing around with my chores this morning and I have a couple of thoughts to add to previous posts to Jim.


Thank you for the last remark. I hang around here and try to offer what I can. I don't shotgun advice. I am not qualified. But there are a few who I think would benefit from the Gawd awful happenings in my own life and what I learned. And what I observed my wife to learn.

My wife and I are pretty well recovered. It has been three years and to be frank, a lot of that recovery happened in the past year, the final push from 95% at two years to 99.9%. I will also say that some of the deepest recovery was in the past year as well, the examination demons that were getting free rent in both our heads.

Jim's family will NEVER be what it could have been. When the screwing starts, things change permanently. That is what it is and no recovery. BUT, with GrandPa's help, the family can be better than what it is now. Personally, I don't see how anyone of the family can stand to be around brother. I also don't understand why brother's wife hasn't bailed.

Larry

Larry, Thank you so much for your insight into this. There are so many things going on underneath the surface and you have a great way of deciphering it into understandable pieces. I think your personal experience really helps me to understand how it all fits together.

My father could make all of this so much easier for all concerned, particularly the grandchildren. My dad is still so wrapped up defending my brother that he misses everything else. I know it is his guilt however his coddling of him only makes it worse. My brother has never had to account for anything he has done and probably never will as long as Dad doesn't get it.

Since this whole thing started however I have noticed a change in the way I talk to my children and my attitude toward them. I am VERY involved in their attitudes toward life. We talk often about respect for their siblings and particularly about respect for the family. My sons have also been instructed in respect for women and my daughters in proper behaviour around men particularly how to establish boundaries and in respecting yourself.

I have even developed a new catch phrase "Do you know how long I am your father?" and they answer " I know, I know - FOREVER- Right Dad?"

It means that even when you guys (the kids) are grown I will still expect you to behave in a responsible way, or you will answer to me. That I am your father and I will teach you how to be a success at Life, not just how to be successful.

I seriously believe that if my father had been around when my brother was little he would have grown up with more respect for others. As it was he only developed a feeling of entitlement and selfishness.

Vows4Good, Your childhood has allowed you to witness first hand many of the same things that my family is going through. It is so helpful to hear from someone that has been there and what you would have wanted to hear from your parents.

You are soooooo correct in that it WAS NOT a happy family even before the affair between my wife and brother. My brother had carried resentment and jealousy toward me ever since he was a child. It became much worse after he impregnated the 15 year old girl and "had to get married" according to him. Poor baby, someone expected him to answer for something for the first time in his life.

After that his non stop string of bad choices and behaviour never stopped. I think that my Mom and Dad's telling him "Why can't you be more like Jim?" and "Why didn't you marry a nice girl like Jim's wife" started him looking for a way to "get even" with the result of the affair with his sister in law. Whenever my parents congratulated me on something my brother laughed and thought "Yeah, but guess what, I'm screwing his wife!!!"

He wasn't interested in bringing his behaviour up to decency, he just wanted to drag my wife down into the filth to have someone to tell each other that they were not really all that bad, just "misunderstood". :RollieEyes: It also had the added bonus of paying me back for being "successful" when he was not...

Bingo:


My best friend is a shrink for a living. He is totally convinced that the relative of mine was at least partly motivated by past imagined grievances. Relative says no. I think he is lying.

But there is a lesson to be learned by ALL!!!

Wife fell from grace and dropped down, way down to brother's level as my wife did with relative. She was very much a part of his so-called revenge on me, that backfired in his face.

Climbing up the tall pole of integrity, honor and sheer decency is a serious life lesson and one that can be passed on. Frankly, the climb is so dang hard, nobody wants to try it twice. And by climbing, you know how far you dropped down into the muck of human perversity and shameful conduct if you have the courage and help making the climb.

Larry

JF,
I recently heard a sermon that used an analogy of a mechanic with dirty hands shaking the hands of someone clean. He then went on to relate how clean seldom rubs off on dirty, but rather dirty on clean. With that analogy given, it gave us some thought to ponder. Your brother was "dirty" and he rubbed off on clean. That's how dirty people are. Fortunately your wife has a husband that is able to look beyond emotion and see what he wants to happen and put that ahead of feelings...I can only imagine how hard this is.
I am on my 4th marriage...my first I was married to for six miserable years, he physically, emotionally, and verbally abused me, he cheated on me more times than I can count, and I finally risked life and limb to get away from him, literally. My second was my kids' dad, we were married 23 years...we were good partners but were not intimate/loving/close. If only we had heard of MB we could have saved our marriage, it had very good potential. My 3rd marriage was to a wonderful husband and stepfather and we were extremely happy, but after less than 4 years of marriage, he suddenly died of a heart attack. My 4th husband I met while very vulnerable and grieving, and little did I know what marriage to him would be like...he has lied to me continually and cheated on me...I am trying to salvage the little there is but have very little to work with. I have learned a great deal, however, in the process, so at least nothing is a waste. I have developed a saying in life (my sisters and I were very close, as often happens in families of abuse): "husbands may come and go, but sisters are forever!" Us girls (five of us) are all very different, but we are very supportive of each other. I cannot imagine going through a betrayal such as yours at the hands of one of them. To me, there is nothing closer than a spouse, sibling, or child, and they should be valued and cherished. To be disregarded the way you have been by your brother is abominable. It is to your credit that you and your wife are working things out and I sincerely wish you the best as you successfully keep your family intact.

Larry and Vows4Good, Success!!! My wife has asked me to help her write a rough draft to use in telling the children of the affair!!!

It was the most wonderful feeling in the world to KNOW she wants to be whole again. The look on her face was the most serene and calm I have seen her in years. She tells me the thought of not having it hanging over her head will be a tremendous relief after all of these years.

An amazing thing happened in the store while we were shopping. She has been terrified of what the children's reaction may be to it and that has been causing her to pull back from telling them. Well, God had something in mind for us. Today while we were shopping we were met by my neice (brother's daughter) who knows about the affair. She went up and gave my wife the biggest hug and told her she LOVED her. We then talked for the longest time and I got to hold my great nephews for the first time in two years!!! What a fantastic feeling! My neice seems to have completely forgiven my wife for messing up the family and just wants to move ahead. It was a tremendous relief for my wife to know she doesn't "hate" her for helping to destroy the family.

My neice did say something very revealing... She said that if my brother had did it once and realized what a horrible mistake it was that would have been one thing... but to do it over and over is unforgiveable and she completely understands why my brother and my family can never be together. What a wonderful smart little mother she is.

She knows something about emotional pain. It was her little sister and her mother who were killed in a car wreck. She awoke on a ventilator to find her mother and sister dead and little brother was also on a ventilator. To have survived all of that and then be able to deal with this is a credit to a beautiful person in both mind and spirit and to God's grace.

I will let you all know how the progress with the confession is coming. Thanks again!!!

I would check with the Harley's before you tell the kids. As to whether to tell, what to tell, and how to tell.

The Road, Thank you for your reply. You state "whether to tell" as part of your suggestion in addition to contacting the Harley's as to what to tell and how to tell.

Would you share with me your feelings on any reasons that she would not want to confess with the overwhelming evidence and personal stories of why she should? I'm not saying they may not exist, I just haven't heard of them yet.

If there is something I have not understood about the reason for confession and unburdening one's soul to free itself in additon to all the benefits to the children and the rest of this tortured family I certainly think that now would be the time to know before she does confess.

Anyone's viewpoints would certainly be appreciated as once it's done it's done and we want to do it in the best way possible for everyone. Thank you all for your help. We couldn't have come this far without all of you.(Larry and Vows4Good you are at the top of our prayer list everyday. Thank you.) (One for me and one from my wife!)

Not an expert. That's why I said ask one.

However, one reason why a WS should not tell their spouse about their affair is that a clueless spouse will have to carry an unbelieveable amount of pain upon hearing that their spouse had SF with an OP.

The WS gets to dump their burden of guilt when they confess onto their BS. Why make it their spouses burden.

This is not to start a debate about exposure between adults.

When a WS exposes themselves to their children the result will be to make themselves feeling better while placing a huge burden on them.

Why would a child need to know?

They ask about the affair. Why is mom.....?

The affair is still on going and WW won't end it.

Explain why there is a plan B.

Tell why you are divorcing their mom.

These questions appear to need direct answers.
However a question as: Why don't you/we see uncle anymore?

That can be handled by uncle is not nice to us without further detail.

Jim:

If I was confused by theroad's reply to you, then I suspect you were as well. That said, I can think of one or two valid reasons to invest in one or several sessions with the Harleys.

The primary reason is to get advice and validation straight from those who coach for a living. A session with Steve or Jennifer is always a good thing, no harm, no foul.

Secondly, as well meaning as I am, and I am well meaning, I am by no means a professional.

When even a highly trained professional like a doctor makes a diagnosis, it never hurts to seek a second opinion. AND, I think you could get a session pretty quick before your wife and yourself loose your determination and courage.

I understand the cost to be in the range of $185 for an hour or more.

It is very likely or at least possible that one of the Harleys will come up with something completely overlooked, or a path undiscovered. I think it is a good idea.

After you schedule an appointment, you should sit down and outline a brief description of your situation and a point by point brief synopsis of what you want to do and what you seek from them, and why.

Larry