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#2110245 08/15/08 04:25 AM
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This might have made sense if it weren't for the fact that the chicken came before the egg - he asked bible thumpers to stay off his thread only after you said that the issue at hand was his being a closet atheist and not having a relationship with God.

I cannot disagree with him being annoyed by someone whose response to his wife's affair is "well, how close are you to God?".. I think my first response would also be "WTF???".

AGG - and my first response to his "bible thumpers off!" post was to agree and leave. But others would not "leave it at that." Any wonder why MY response would also be, "WTH???"

P.S. My response to catperson's post was punted to the Other Topics forum for some unknown reason, but if you'd care to read it you might find some additional information.


But to put it into perspective for you, I NEVER said that Mike "needed" to find God. What I SAID was that he was operating from an atheistic standpoint and "using" God, after admitting that he had maybe "destroyed" his wife's entire world.

Here's the "sequence" for you. You can make up your own mind whether or not Mike was "spitting in the face" of people who WERE sincerely wanting to help him should he choose recovery rather than divorce:


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Are you trying to "use" religion for what you might be able to "get out of it?"

I guess we'll never have the chance to explore that more, especially since you have chosen to not answer my previous questions about YOUR faith.


Good luck Mike, I sincerely mean that.

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Mike, "remorse" comes later.

Don't be trying to "eat the entire elephant" at one meal.

Time IS needed, in addition to an agreement to begin to "try" to recover your marriage.

"Remorse" will likely come at some point regardless of Recovery or Divorce. Only the consequences and the future will be different.

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Mike, if that truly IS the "sole" driver, then I'd tread very cautiously about reconciliation.

THAT is why I asked previously about your faith and her faith in Jesus Christ and just how important that faith is to each of you.

IF you prefer not to discuss that aspect of the recovery process, that is fine, but I must tell you that it was KEY to my wife's and my ability to recover our marriage. I do not think that we would have been successful, no matter how closely we adhered to the "Harley" method, without both the intervention of God and our submitting our wills to His will, even when we "didn't feel like it." Our marriage was "that far gone" when we began our first halting and hesitant steps toward recovery. In fact, there was a time JL told me to "forgetaboutit" and get ready for a divorce.

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Mike_c2's response post:
Look, you say some good stuff but enough of the Jesus trip. I'm an atheist (closet), she is a serious Lutheran and we are talking with her pastor, but that isn't going to be what rides me into the sunset.

If that breaks us up fine, but I'm not going to feign religious faith.

Oddly, I went to Catholic school (that will knock the religion out of you) and I can quote circle around the rest of them in Scripture.

Now -- would getting more socially involved in church makes sense? Probably.

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my response to Mike_c2's post:
Mike, thanks for the clarification. My apology if it seemed like a "Jesus trip." I asked about it because you mentioned your wife's faith and the involvement of the pastor, etc., but never mentioned your own position vies a vie a belief system.

I understand that God may have no meaning for you personally, and you might not understand what I am about to say, but the "remorse" you are looking for from your wife BEGINS with her realization that adultery is first and foremost a sin against God. When she repents of that TO God and seeks His forgiveness is when you will begin to see some of that repentance that you are looking for.

Personally I'm not sure what good it will do for you to be speaking to her pastor, as you "speak different languages," but it's a good thing that your wife is speaking with the pastor because for her, humble obedience TO God should be foremost in her desires if she loves the Lord.

Consider the "MB" plans and concepts, as they will provide a framework on which recovery, if that is what you choose, can be built.

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Mike_C2's response:
Actually, she isn't speaking with the pastor, I am.

In fact, she quit some church committees and such on D-day, so there is some shame there somewhere. She has said she wanted both of us to sit down with him, but with the divorce/withdrawal/reconciliation merry-go-round I have been unable to decide if I want to hear whatever defense is going to be thrown up while she is still fogged.

I tried to call him over the weekend to call her and talk.

When I'm not plotting her murder, I am worried that I, er, she nuked her entire world with this -- job, church, lover, husband, kids, cousins, sister, mother.....

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my response to Mike_C2's post:
And Mike, maybe that is part of the problem. It is NOT the pastor's responsibility to talk to your wife for YOU, it is his reponsibility to talk to her for God.

You likely (being a "closet" atheist) don't want him, or me, or anyone, to talk to YOU about God, but you want to "use" God in some way for your benefit?

YOU are responsible for talking to your wife for yourself. Don't try to shift this responsibility to someone else who is NOT married to her.

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my subsequent post to LA:
LB - Probably not until Mike is really ready to actually forgive her and accept the promises inherent in forgiving someone.

Time will tell.

But his apparent "glee" in his "golden calf" statement and his lack of understanding what was being said in his wife's comment about "never getting into heaven" shows a marked lack of caring for his wife. But that's perhaps another issue for another day.

Right now Mike is still reeling from the emotional onslaught of adultery and is not that interested in his wife's feelings, much less her relationship with a God that Mike doesn't believe even exists.

A marriage of equals is the goal, but it will take time to see if this is achievable or if it will be a marriage of "master/slave" instead. That is, unless Mike decides that he really wants to be divorced and not build a recovered marriage.

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BK's post to Pariah:
Oh Pariah - I never realised Adultery and fornication and effeminate was the unforgivable sin!

Whoops - that's more than ONE unforgivable sin.

Seriously Pariah - are you saying that God will not forgive an adulteror? Sure UNREPENTANT adulterors are in trouble but a repentant one is forgiven just like you are for your sins.

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my response to BK's post:
BK - well said.


Besides, the "issue of the moment" is not his wife's relationship with God, it is the adultery and his lack of a relationship with God (can't get much more "lacking" than being an atheist who doesn't even believe God exists). Therefore the "eternal state of her soul" is NOT "in play" here for any reason other that to "beat up" on the Wayward Wife. Likewise, USING the pastor to "God-talk" to her is just another means of manipulation through the use of something he doesn't believe in.

He needs to decide if he wishes to remain married or not.

Once that decision is made, then he need to be honest enough with himself to DO what either decision requires of him in order to successfully divorce or rebuild a marriage through true forgiveness and NOT "dominance."

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Mike_C2's reponse:

Mike_C2's agreement with Pariah:
"""That woman had no realtionship with God in the first place,"""

Great, I can take him off the suspect's list.
:-)



Mike _C2's response to anyone of faith:
Alright all the bible thumpers outta my thread!




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FH, I understand 100% where Mike's animosity toward hypocrites comes from.

I now trust NO ONE who starts spouting scripture at me.

It comes from the fact she lives by the set of rules set down by the christian faith that says no matter what you do, who you hurt, or what kind of damage you leave in your wake, you are forgiven and others must forgive you.

It's like a guiltless fornication smorgasbord with no repercussions. A smug get out of h3ll free card.

The whole concept flies in the face of redemption.

Wait until you are on the outside looking in on Club Hypocrite, then you'll understand.

FH, you are playing the persecuted martyr now ans stand accusing someone who has witnessed the sting of hypocracy. Your martyrdom mertibadge flies in the face of what you are supposed to believe.


I watch, and am as a sparrow alone upon the house top.
Pariah #2110298 08/15/08 06:49 AM
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FH, I understand 100% where Mike's animosity toward hypocrites comes from.

I now trust NO ONE who starts spouting scripture at me.

It comes from the fact she lives by the set of rules set down by the christian faith that says no matter what you do, who you hurt, or what kind of damage you leave in your wake, you are forgiven and others must forgive you.

It's like a guiltless fornication smorgasbord with no repercussions. A smug get out of h3ll free card.

The whole concept flies in the face of redemption.

Wait until you are on the outside looking in on Club Hypocrite, then you'll understand.

FH, you are playing the persecuted martyr now ans stand accusing someone who has witnessed the sting of hypocracy. Your martyrdom mertibadge flies in the face of what you are supposed to believe.


"I now trust NO ONE who starts spouting scripture at me."

Pariah, I understand your bitterness, it comes through loud and clear in most of your postings.

However, I don't recall "quoting Scripture" to Mike anywhere in this thread, so why are you bringing up an argument to attack that doesn't exist?

By the same token, Mike doesn't seem to have any compunction against using that same Scripture against his wife, even though he doesn't even believe any "God" exists. So please refrain from calling ME "hypocritcal."


It comes from the fact she lives by the set of rules set down by the christian faith that says no matter what you do, who you hurt, or what kind of damage you leave in your wake, you are forgiven and others must forgive you.

It's like a guiltless fornication smorgasbord with no repercussions. A smug get out of h3ll free card.


Pariah, if you'd like to discuss this misinterpretation of forgiveness of sin I'd be happy to discuss it with you further, but perhaps on another thread since Mike has made it clear he doesn't want any "God talk" on his thread.

Suffice it to say for now that you seem to equate forgiveness of sin with NO consequences for the sin. The two things are vastly different and forgiveness does NOT "do away with" consequences for sin, especially if the Betrayed Spouse doesn't want to. For example, the BS can BOTH forgive the sin of the WS AND not continue to married as a consequence of the sin.


" The whole concept flies in the face of redemption.

Wait until you are on the outside looking in on Club Hypocrite, then you'll understand."


Perhaps. But I AM "on the outside looking in" and the ONLY thing that grants me forgiveness of MY sins IS what Jesus did on my behalf to secure that forgiveness of sin by God the Father. God forgives MY sins for not one thing that I have done, or could do, to earn forgiveness based upon my own merit. God grants me forgiveness for my sins and establishes a relationship with me SOLELY because Jesus "earned it for me" and gave HIS righteousness to me when I accepted Him as my Lord and Savior.

Even still, I am NOT "set free" from the earthly consequences of my sins even though they ARE forgiven and my eternal state is WITH God rather than APART from God.


Pariah #2110300 08/15/08 06:50 AM
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Pariah -- great post

FEY -- what are you trying to accomplish on these boards? Because you sure as heck ain't helping me with this selfish neurotic arguing.

Mike_C2 #2110303 08/15/08 06:53 AM
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Some people always have to have the last word.

catperson #2110344 08/15/08 07:39 AM
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yep, some people do.

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My response to catperson's post was punted to the Other Topics forum for some unknown reason, but if you'd care to read it you might find some additional information.

This topic was moved on request.

c00per


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