The following is lifted from Harley's book Buyers Renters Freeloaders still available in this site's bookstore, new printing has been retitled The One.

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Renters believe Our relationship is temporary. You may be right for me today and wrong for me tomorrow.

Buyers believe We are together for life.

Renters believe Our relationship should be fair. What I get should balance what I give.

Buyers believe We both contribute whatever it takes to make our relationship successful.

Renters believe As needs change, the relationship may end if needs are difficult to meet.

Buyers believe As needs change, we will make adjustments to meet new needs.

Renters believe Criticism may prompt me to change if it's worthwhile for me to do so.

Buyers believe Criticism indicates a need for change.

Renters believe Sacrifice is reasonable as long as it's fair.

Buyers believe Sacrifice is dangerous and to be avoided.

Renters believe Short-term fixes are fine.

Buyers believe long-term solutions are necessary.

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Compulsive givers believe sacrifice in a marriage is reasonable.
There has been an entire discussion about this ... found within the following
Link ... if you feel ambitious enough to read that thread.

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Every time the compulsive giver makes a sacrifice - they are encouraging anti-POJA in the marriage. The compulsive giver teaches their partner that meeting needs is a one-way-street. Eventually the spouse of a compulsive giver has no motivation to even care about his/her spouses needs. They no longer matter. The spouse of a compulsive giver is trained to become a Freeloader.

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Starfish* explained it so well in 2007 she wrote:

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The Giver is the part of you that follows the rule: do whatever you can to make the other person happy and avoid anything that makes the other person unhappy, even if it makes you unhappy. It's the part of you that wants to make a difference in the lives of others, and it grows out of a basic instinct that we all share, a deep reservoir of love and concern for those around us.

But the Giver is only half of the story. The other half is the Taker. It's the part of you that follows the rule: do whatever you can to make yourself happy and avoid anything that makes yourself unhappy, even if it makes others unhappy. It's the part of you that wants the most out of life, and it grows out of your basic instinct for self-preservation.

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The giver is all about love and concern and the taker is our selfish side...so how can the giver be bad, or the taker be good?

Everybody recognizes the "good" in the giver and how giving can enhance relationships, but here's how a "bad" giver can ruin your marriage if all your marital choices are made solely selflessly:

*your giver is not honest....he won't tell your spouse what you need because he more concerned about your spouse feels, whether your spouse gets his needs met, than protecting your interests or your feelings. If your spouse asks the giver if it's okay to do something....even something you don't want to do...the giver says okay.

*your giver is the one who creates resentment...all that dishonesty cloaked in care....leads to misunderstandings, mixed signals, missed opportunities. The giver thinks...my spouse should KNOW what I need....just like I know what he needs.

*your giver is your martyr....endless giving creates the ever suffering spouse. Givers are praised for their selflessness, but they become very unhappy until all that's left is to somehow enjoy the pain....and get what secondary gain that offers.

*givers avoid risk and change...no rocking the boat...who knows what could happen? Nope, givers like safety....even when that involves enduring discomfort.

*givers believe in unconditional love...because they don't ask for conditions. They just give.

*givers handle your tender emotions...fear, sadness, care, consideration. They also tend to be weepy and needy.

We all know how "bad" the taker can be....afterall he's the guy who makes selfish demands, angry outbursts and most of our other LBs. But how can the taker be "good"?

*your taker is the guy you need at the negotiation table....because your giver will NOT create harmony, fairness, honesty in the dealings. Without your taker, your giver will create an environment of sacrifice....leading to resentment, anger and loss of love.

*your taker is honest about what you need and gives your spouse the information to CHOOSE to show you he loves you in the way that you would like it. He doesn't require mind reading...he lays it on the table.

*your taker fights for what you need and doesn't let you sit home three weekends in a row...he makes sure you're part of the fun.

*your taker is not an enabler or codependent.

*your taker saves your marriage as often as your giver does by making sure that reciprocity exists.

*your taker is willing to take risks and make changes.


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I hope this helps many.

Pep

Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accomodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carper, replacing the roof, and even doinf some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.


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and to be crystal clear and avoid any misunderstanding ...

a compulsive giver is a RENTER and not a BUYER
and their spouse is usually a FREELOADER not a RENTER


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about it !


Pep

Hmmmmm, my H is a compulsive giver in all relationships, not just our marital one. However, he doesn't match the description of renter in thinking that relationships are short term or of providing care as long as it's in his best interest. He doesn't see himself as a martyr but he tends to get walked over by people who underestimate his underlying strength. His compulsive giving can only be pushed so far.

Hmmm, now I have to think about myself.

Am I understanding all this correctly?

A giver does not POJA because there is dishonesty about unmet needs.

Pep

Yes, that would be correct. It's self sacrifice, but people like my H think it's a good way to be. It makes them good people in their eyes. They see it as selfish to put their needs first or even acknowledge they have needs but, yes, resentment builds up underneath.

lol, I've been great so far at analysing my H. I really need to think about myself I suppose.

I have to study up more on this....

BECAUSE..

I haven't been able to figure out how come my husband who, (when NOT WAYWARD) is more of a BUYER than I am, had an affair... and became a RENTER with the OW?

AND, it seems like I was a FREELOADER prior to his AFFAIR.. and I am now a BUYER, too..????

don't confuse a laid back and easy to please personality with compulsive giver

I WAS NOT (past tense) a GIVER to my HUSBAND..

I GAVE to OTHERS except for him...

I TOOK from HIM and expected him to GIVE, GIVE, GIVE to ME...took him for granted...

He likes to GIVE but wants APPRECIATION for it...

I'm considering HIM to be a BUYER..but MAYBE NOT...

Holy cow this is timely Pep...

Did you install a voice recorder in our car or something? We just drove 6 hours, and as a result of a disagreement I was feeling like withdrawing, giving up on trying to tell him things, doing the "bad Plan A thingy" I often turn to, which is the resentful giver you're talking about.

Ok. Giving up is not an option. It's back to trying to be H&O, and to POJA; I won't wallow in resentment.

Thanks.

No, I'm not confusing easy going with being a giver.

My H is a true compulsive giver. He always lets others wants, needs, desires come before anything he wants or his needs. But he does feel resentful about it. He doesn't know how to articulate to people that "he" is important too. Because I love the man I always met/meet his needs because I could "see" what they were/are. That was borne out when we filled in the EN questionnaires. He told me I met all his needs and then some.

It is a trap to let the giver just keep on giving. It all came unstuck when he was grieving for his parents and didn't know how to become a taker. He internalised his grief and suffered deep depression because he couldn't articulate his needs or would have felt selfish for articulating his needs. So he withdrew completely and didn't communicate with anyone.

Am I on the right track with all this?

Excessive GIVING gives way to excessive and voracious TAKING. Giving, ie: sacrificing, is not good for a marriage because it causes resentment coupled with an ENTITLEMENT mentality. How many times have we heard waywards come in here and complain how they gave and gave and gave for years and were IGNORED and never appreciated? They feel this entitles them to cheat.

Neither my H or I are excessive givers, but we were in the habit of sacrificing for the other, which caused great harm in our marriage. We don't do this anymore, opting instead to use POJA. No more do we agree something we don't like doing, because that is the behavior of a RENTER, not a BUYER. A buyer is NOT an excessive giver, which is a short term fix. A buyer uses POJA, which is a long term fix.

From The Giver and Taker:


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3550_give.html

This is EXACTLY what I have felt. I feel as if people will view me as WEAK if I ask for help. When I talk with friends/family, they view me as STRONG and that I NEVER ask for help. This is a BAD thing. I feel shame when I cannot handle something on my own and that feeds the depression. Then I feel shame for the depression because I cannot handle things at all...but I am STILL unwilling to TAKE.

Being a compulsive giver is a vicious cycle to live in. It is a battle that must be fought and won.

Thank you Pep for starting this thread. I think that more people are compulsive givers than they care to admit. And it does cause damage, not only in the relationship, but to the individual.

Mogi

In therapy (right after D day) the therapist told me to make a list of all the ways being a "trooper" caused me harm ....

I had called myself a "trooper" as a way of patting myself on the back for taking the "hit" and not complaining about the hit

(my list was long and terrible to read aloud at the next session)

teaching others we can be "hit" and we won't complain about being hit is not kind and loving - it's dishonest

Pep

WOW...my H, THE GIVER..had an affair..

Another AWSOME discussion thread.

Thanks Pep.

Bumping for the Newbie's

Wow, Jen, your H sounds quite a bit like myself. I never realized until reading Pep's post that being a compulsive giver was a BAD thing. That could very well explain my deep, underlying anger which I've never understood why I have and also my sadness and anger at myself when I realized that I was so angry (I hope that all made sense). I want to take care of everyone and give them what they want, while neglecting my own emotional needs. This is especially true in my friendships. Hmm....definitely something to think about.

oh yes that was me completely .... compulsory giver to EVERYONE especially my H. HIS career.. HIS transfers.. HIS whatever .... and it wasn't that he was not prepared or wanted to discuss any of it ... I cut him short and GAVE.

And when he wasn't there (lets be fair he was fighting a war) to give back I was devastated and blamed all my ills on him... it was this HUGE swing from giver to total taker.

Took months of therapy to understand that

But remember NOT any of the above is an excuse for an affair. It simply allows you to be selfish.