I agree to this completely. Though unlike many WW they usually try to keep some contact with BH, a call once in awhile, an email, etc. Mine is NOT doing that, only the odd email to tell me about going to a lawyer, wanting something like a credit card cancelled, anything that has to do with moving on.......


You have a very valid point. She held on for 7yrs though for me to propose? All becuase she thought things would change once we were married????? We'd been living together for 4yrs already, you would think she would know that this is how we live whether married or not????

This is hard, moving on without someone you you had all your life plans together. I do really love her but am feeling a bit better and am getting used to being alone.
I just get so mad that she seems to have the good side of this (I know, scewed thinking) with her having a guy waiting there for her a friend to move out with. She's getting comfort, sex and going out partying/ the beach/ cabin etc.....and I'm here so confused as to what happened btwn us. No answers from her just lots of I don't know regarding the future of us, her feelings towards me, questioning so much.....
I hate this!!!! I want to be with her and know it will never be the same marriage but that's a GOOD THING in a respect because we both needed to grow up a bit and start taking things seriously.

AWH,

Read up on living together before marriage. You increase the chances of divorce when you do so. Why? Who knows. SH explains the whole concept of "rental agreement".

But your WW showed something that is common. A person hangs in there, waits for the proposal. She waits and waits and waits, putting up with things she may not be all that happy about and afriad to leave for fear of being along. So the proposal comes and, you know what? The marriage happens and things don't get any better or different.

AWH, you're afraid of being alone. You love the imagage in your head of who you thought your W was, but in reality she isn't who you pictured her to be. She's someone totally different.

A good friend of mine said, "You can't squeeze orange juice out of a lemon." You had a lemon. You've been wanting for her to change and be someone she's not.

My ex's criticism of me was that I supposedly wanted her to be a stay at home "Betty Crocker Little Military House Wife".

I never felt this way, but she had that perception.

We were different. Everyone saw that but me. I wanted to stay home and do things as a family. She wanted to leave the kids with the nanny and have her and I do stuff together without the kids.

We did a lot of that, but I guess it wasn't enough. I don't know. I think we had a lot of healthy time together as a couple. We went to lunch together almost daily and had our date nights regularly.

We went to a marriage retreat to rekindle things or keep them healthy.

I thought things were going well.

But the military puts artifical stressors on a marriage that can take their toll.

Last minute assignments, time apart, stress and strain of unpredictability, and the idea of never ending deployments really can add up.

There's no 9-5 stability.

But then again, there are opportunities. We traveled through different places in Europe. Went to Iceland. Got to see Spain.

Lived all over the US. Those were good things. And those things could bond a couple together since you have each other to comfort each other.

But it really takes someone special and understanding to be a military spouse and you really need to be with someone with a lot of independence and maturity. A dependent person shouldn't marry into the military. If someone needs a lot of attention for either personal or health reasons, then they make a bad candidate as a military spouse.

A woman who is fairly independent and adventurous and relishes the changes makes a very good military spouse.

It's hard either way, but a good attitude can make all the difference.

How did I get off on this tangent?

Because I'm relating to you, your pain, and your fear of being alone.

Because I lived with my ex before we married.

Because I too had dreams about my family and kids and they were lost and shattered.

Seriously, if you do choose to divorce: Take time off from dating. Don't date for a while and go on a personal journey. Rediscover yourself, your hobbies, interests, and most importantly the reasons why you chose the mate you chose.

Then take a hard look at what you compromised with your mate and ask why you did.

Your W sounds like she's gone. You're still in denial about this.

The day you decide to let her go and move on, then you will certainly get her attention then.

She wants nothing to do with you. Plan A isn't working because you can't plan A someone who is gone.

You have no kids to coordinate things about.

Getting to a point where you are letting her go will be the greatest freedom you can experience, and in an ironic way, the greatest opportunity you have to get her back.

It's the cliche saying of letting something you love go. If it comes back then hold on to it forever. If it doesn't, then it was never yours to begin with.

My exww threw that saying to me before she left. Ironically, she was very right. Her motive for saying it was not good, but the words themselves were.

The logic, however, doesn't apply to kids. Your love for them doesn't die and is a powerful motivator to both forgive a wayward spouse and to give a marriage a chance.

It wasn't enough for her. But it was for me.

Then again, I wonder how she would have felt if I had most of the custody and she didn't. I'm sure that she'd miss her kids enough that she might feel as I did that trying to solve the problems we had was certainly better than living without the kids.

But that would have meant that I had to make a decision to be strong. You need to be strong. Strength is attractive. Wimpy weakness is not.

I literally begged on my knees.

That got me nowhere.

I'm sure that throwing her butt into the street with her base priviledges and finacial cutoff would have gotten a much more desired response.

She would have been furious at first, but it would have been deserved on her part and would have been the slap of reality needed to force her to say, "do I really want to go down this road and risk losing my kids?"

But I messed it up from the start.

Appeasement and begging get you nowhere.

Strength does. At a minimum it will preserve your rights.

Yes, pomdbd3 it surely looks that way. She did always have her dream of married with kids and the "perfect life".....I know life isn't like that but I think she REALLY kept hanging on to this until now. She never put effort into the marriage, just thought it would all work out....I'm sad that this has been her attitude and never thought it truly was but am coming to realize this has been her thinking all these yrs.

I'm not afraid of being alone, but I'd be much happier with her as I loved sharing my life with her. Not looking at who she is now and the hurtful things she's done, we still have the same interests in life, enjoy and want the same things in life and I would still love to share those times with her. BUT RIGHT NOW she really does need to find herself. I look back and it seems all her life she has been living to please others, living vicariously through her friends, parents and me. She really does need to find what makes HER happy for herself. I still carry a bit of hope.....that she will see the grass isn't greener on the other side, life it tough (I have protected her from this) and that she grows from these experiences and sees that she could be happy with me becuase she she can realize all the sacrifices I have made for her over the years.
I do understand that she IS someone different. She has made changes in her life, she's growing up from the innocent, shy, caring girl I used to know. In a way she is rebeling against herself because of the conflict she has within her.
I disagree I had a lemon. She may be a lemon now but she has always been my orange. I loved her all these yrs for who she was and didn't want her to change. Kinda the opposite of what you say but I get your point.



My WW is gone.....It's REALLY hard to deal with that fact. Nothing I have done has given me a glimmer of hope that she would ever want to come back. I HATE how she used those words so many times, even within the conversation when I confronted her about the PA, "I don't know how I'll feel months from now or even a year". That kept giving me hope. But they were just words. Maybe she IS confused? Maybe she wants me to wait for her like the couple counsellors I have spoken to say it seems? She so quickly, at least to me, moved on and doesn't so any regrets or misconseptions of her decisions. I had no idea it was coming....that hurts the most that she couldn't have been up front about leaving in the first place instead has left me dragging behind her in so much more pain......

So with everything said.....I know I need to take care of myself and let her "find herself" and if she one day wants to work on our marriage I will leave that door open while I'm moving forward...

Is there a point to Plan A/Plan B.... is it my marriage is done? Is she really done?

I would be looking at this VERY differently if there wasn't OM. BUT becuase of this OM I feel that her emotions for him(which makes her question her love for me), and having someone to be there as her "crutch" that will take care of her she has it easy right now walking away. If this OM wasn't around she would probably be still at home and we'd be still trying to have kids. I do look at the silver lining in the fact that it's a good thing this is happening NOW instead of after a kid

Alone,

I'm no expert at any of this, but you gotta ask yourself if this torture you are going through is worth it. I'm a BH too, and could never see myself trying to hang on to a woman who is currently engaged in an affair. I look at my sitch in hindsight and think, "but that's what I did." The difference for me is that I didn't actually know for sure if my WW was in an affair when I was trying to get her back (just thought she was detached, without an OM)...you on the other hand are just killing yourself by self-torture. Your WW is the catalyst of your pain, but by not facing reality, you are the one still pouring salt in your own wounds by hanging on.

I don't have a solution for you...but, this Plan A thing for you is useless IMO. Plan B could work, but you would have to cut ALL ties with her even though you are scared OM will fill the void for her that you are leaving open...and it sounds like you are not willing to do that.

I'm sorry man, but your wife has made her choice. It may be fogginess that has brought her to this point of choosing OM over you, but you are not helping your own cause right now by cotinuing contact with her. She's not worth it.

If you cut off all contact with her, will you lose her completely?...maybe, maybe not. But, at least you can pick yourself up and dust yourself off in the process...without torturing yourself any more.

You need to let her go. If she decides that the grass is, in fact, NOT greener on the other side...she may call you one day and ask if she can come back. And just maybe by that time you will be inclined to say, "I forgive you...I wish you well...but NO". But, you will never get to that point by carrying on like you are right now.

JMHO

AWH,

The second you decide to let her go and stop giving her attention and genuinely start moving on with your life you'll see a reaction.

I've been told that it often happens when you've truly let go inside and it isn't an action.

You'll finally be sick of what is happening and move on.

But you miss the point of Plan B. Plan B is to let the OM take care of all the ENs of your WW and removes you from this abuse you're putting yourself through.

The woman you love doesn't exist anymore. She's dead.

Please don't become like Drowningman. Look for Dogfood's thread to see how things can be for you.

He loved his wife. BH with no kids. She ran off with upstairs neighbor. He went into Plan B and divorced.

He's come back here and posted about the wonderful new relationship he has with a woman that is better than is ex and who understands the pain of infidelity since she experienced it herself.

He's also finding new work and really moving ahead in his life. There is light after the darkness.

I spent a week in a psych ward at Walter Reed. That was my rock bottom.

I have a woman friend who was an outpatient at a psych ward.

It's normal to feel despair and anguish. You lost someone you really love.

But if you continue to subject yourself to this abuse you will find yourself like Drowningman. He hung on for a loooong time. Still is, as far as I know.

WW is on to OM2, and OM3. She would go on friendly dates with DM and he would cling to hope.

The best way to really win her back, if it's going to happen, is counterintuitive.

Grow a pair and be a man and don't be indifferent to her and act as if you don't care and truly put in the effort to get to that point.

Fake it till you make it.

It's hard to let go. But the payoff is peace for you.

Want to second this coming from a FWW. I didn't wake up until my H was about ready to move on and had had enough of me and my antics. I was perfectly content to continue all of my antics, and keep torturing him. I had NO REASON to change. But once he started to move on... I HAD A REASON TO CHANGE. It was change... or LOSE HIM. Period. And I saw that. It wasn't a threat. He was for real.

Now, a year later, I WISH, I WISH, I WISH HE WOULD HAVE DONE IT SOONER! Not only for HIMSELF... but to make our M recovery easier... and FOR ME. To protect me FROM MYSELF, and to TRULY SHOW ME what I was DOING. Because while he was busy being a wimp, I was busy manipulating situations TO MY LIKING so I could continue my A.

Don't be a wimp. If she's ever gonna earn that (F)... she'll THANK YOU for not being a wimp. Plan A has an end FOR A REASON, and there are many on this board that have done it TOO LONG. And their WW is just TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THEM, big time, and manipulating them. Don't let her do that.

If H would have done it sooner, my A would have been over sooner. I would have come home sooner. That, I know. As soon as he pulled away, I freaked. I was fine as long as I thought I had all the control.

This is not to say it was HIS responsibility to end the A, it wasn't. It was MINE. And it shouldn't have taken him GIVING UP ON ME for me to end it... but sadly, that's what happens a lot.

So if you are serious about getting back your WW, saving your M... KICK HER TO THE CURB!

Plan B!

E.

E is right. I went on to have a RA...it was a THAT point when my WW woke up and realized that I was moving on and I did NOT need her anymore.

I'm not saying have a RA, but she needs something to slap her upside the head, and all you are doing right now is giving her the best of both worlds....in other words, letting her cake-eat. She has no reason to change her path of her affair as long as you are still there for her when she needs you.

AWH,

Fear is holding you prisoner. It's something I truly understand. But you can work through fear.

Look at it this way:

She's left. So treat her how she thinks she wants to be treated and move on with your life.

What do you have to lose?

Holding your breath is bad for you.

Move on and you're likely to see a reaction. And if she doesn't react, then you have moved on with your life and didn't sit around waiting for her to come back.

I don't think things are totally over between the two of you, because she hasn't filed for separation or divorce. That may just be laziness on her part, or it may be indecsion. There's no way of knowing. All you can do is take care of you and protect your own mental, physical, and emotional health.

You can't stay in Plan A forever - she's happy with the way things are and has no motivation to change.

Speaking of which, how is Plan A going?
What have you done since you built the deck at the cabin? I think you cleaned out the basement clutter and maybe started on the yard? Anything else? Are you letting her know about your progress, and if so, how?

I think a Plan B is a good next step, but I'm not sure you're ready/capable of Plan B.

AWH, can you go totally dark?
Can you avoid checking her email to see what she's kept and what she's deleted?
Can you avoid asking mutual friends how she's doing?
Can you avoid driving by her house or OM's house to see who is where?

I think Plan B would be a good next step but only if you can really do it. If you decide you want to go into Plan B, post your Plan B letter here first and get input from folks. Plan B gets wrecked if you use a poor letter and then "have to" contact your spouse to clarify a misunderstanding or add something you left out. Get the letter right before you go into Plan B.

E, if you don't mind,what was your situation? Age/how many years M/have kids?
How did you know that he was moving on? What signs did he show you? How did he stop contact? Was it like Plan B? Did you start sep. papers or anything???

I am 27, H will be 29 in two weeks. We have been M for a little over 3 years now (together for 8), and have no children-- only a dog . BTW-- my A started about a year and a half after we got married too... and I also moved out of the house-- was out of the house for about a little less than 8 months (although frequently came home to spend the night at the house, for dinners, holidays, etc... I was a classic cake-eater...). I have been living back at home for over a year now... and have truly been giving it my all (and on this site) since last October/November (was still foggy for a bit after returning home last July-- but NC). Began counseling with Jennifer myself (H refuses to join in) in December-- which really began me high-tailing my efforts.

I knew he was moving on by his ACTIONS. He had SAID he was moving on before, but I didn't believe him because I was still pretty much able to manipulate him. He stopped re-arranging his life around me. He wasn't sitting around waiting for me anymore... I practically had to schedule time with him... he was so busy. And sometimes I would call him up for dinner, and he'd be TOO BUSY FOR ME! The pouring affection on me stopped. The misery from him stopped... he seemed... happy-- without me! He pretty much just acted like he DIDN'T CARE anymore. Like I didn't matter to him one way or the other. And I probably didn't. I drained his love bank pretty good... I think the point here is to NOT get where he was... completely drained, before you start acting like you don't care (or not caring in actuality). If you can hold up a front that you "don't care" even if you do-- then you have the chance of her waking up-- and then you still have the gas to keep going when she does, rather than the way we did it-- I didn't wake up until he was REALLY out of gas.

It wasn't ever like "plan B". It was more along the lines of a 180. He didn't know of this site at the time.

At least start with the 180, if you really feel strongly that plan B is not the way to go. But you have to actually DO it, you can't half-heart it. Both plan B and the 180 are all or nothing deals. Doing it half-@ssed is gonna HURT your cause more than HELP it, because then you'll be like the boy that cried wolf, and she won't believe you when you really do give up...

You have nothing to lose. I really think plan B is in order... (not even 180).

E.

Wow E, I can't believe how similar we are in status. I've been trying to find someone a little closer to my situation in age, young marriage and no kids.
I'm waiting to see what WW does now that she has seen a lawyer yesterday. Haven't heard from her yet but I know she won't call, just email. She has been really plan B'ing me yet if I do call her she'll call right back and "try" talking....
I guess if she is pushing for he sep I'll need to play fair and give her the info she needs to get the papers drawn up but besides that I will not being talking about the relationship or anything. After that I guess it will be plan B. I'm in the 180 already and I do feel better already and 95% there that I know I can make it on my own.

Edit: Should I say any words like, I'm keeping the door open but I can not have contact with you while I know you are with OM and not willing to work on our marriage???Anything like that? I'm not sure if a plan B letter applies to my situation (maybe write somethign along the same lines but revised to have no mediator, just come to me when you've decided to work on the marriage. because she's already plan B'ing me and really not having any positive contact of anything...

You are ready to be on your own (almost), your WW is currently in an affair and probably going to start divorce proceeding soon...why are you still accepting her phone calls?

My wife went to lawyer yesterday, told me in an email last week. We are in Canada so we need to have a separation for 12 months before you can file for (no-fault) divorce.

I wasn't accepting her phone calls. I called her once in the last month and a bit, she lets it go to voice mail then called me back. She does NOT text, email(only in response to my Plan A ones over the last month, and when responding always has something in reference to moving farther apart), or call me anymore at all on her own behalf. Hasn't since I confronted her on the PA just over a month ago.

UPDATE: WW sent me an email yesterday and told me she saw a lawyer. That the lawyer will be sending me a letter in the next few weeks, just so I know. That was all the email said.

I met up yesterday with her BF (this BF is friends w/both WW and OM!) that had been away for the two months. We talked for about 3 hours. She's known her for 13yrs. Niether one of us can really make any sense of what's going on(of course we can't!) but it looks like through combining our information the PA didn't start any eariler than mid-June and I confronted her mid-July.
Sounds like word is starting to get around about the A to friends for BOTH WW and OM! Some of them are upset, making comments that WW isn't like the "old" person she was etc.
BF said that WW has been getting jealous over that last 6-8 months of all the younger girls at her work 18-22 that are out partying and enjoying life and she has been really hanging around with them in groups at the bar and parties. It has been making her question how happy she is in life etc..

I am also in Canada, and the last time I checked (a few months ago) infidelity is grounds for immediate divorce as long as it's uncontested...which your WW is probably going to agree to.

So, your plan now is to go hang with "her" best friend to spill your heart out...just so "her" best friend can go back to her what you spoke about?

C'mon man...stop talking to "her" friends, put her and all of "her" friends on ignore, and go plan B/D.

She's gone man...sorry.

Intro, are you saying my WW is filing herself for at fault or just saying that she would probably agree to it if I asked for it????

Yes you are right that she can admit to infidelity and we can proceed with an at fault divorce. In talking with a lawyer about both sep. or immediate divorce, the lawyer said it gets quite a bit more complicated and expensive to do the immediate at fault divorce. It should only be used IF a person feels VERY strongly about "fault".

When I confronted her about the PA I had given her 3 options...
1) separation, if she feels that there is ANY hope of rebuilding our marriage.
2) admit to the infidelity in court for at-fault divorce if she feels it's really done.
3) come home and work on the marriage.

She clearly said, "No, I'm not coming home"
I said then do you want the sep or the instant? She kept saying "I don't know". I left it at that. Saw her a few days later and told her I STILL want to save our marriage, I love her, etc...she couldn't seem to face me..said I guess we should get the sep in place....

Let's start this way:

AWH--

What IS your plan? It seems right now your waffling amongst plans A/B/D....

YOU NEED A PLAN!

And stick TO IT!

Whatever you choose, DO IT.

Waffling amongst plans entirely defeats the purpose of ALL of the plans.

You need to pick ONE PLAN and go with it.

Do you have money to call up the Harleys? They can help you make a plan.

Let me reiterate: YOU NEED A PLAN.

I'm gonna suggest its too late for plan A. YOU NEED PLAN B... LIKE LAST WEEK!

Lets make a plan... get you started on it... today.

Those that fail around here are those that DO NOT HAVE A PLAN. If you follow one of the plans... NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS with your M, YOU, PERSONALLY, will SUCCEED!

But you have to follow A PLAN!

E.