Jim this may not be exactly what you are looking for - but perhaps it will give you (and others ?) some food for thought.

The second book H and I read together during our recovery was written by Gary Smalley. You can Google to find his web site. One of the things Smalley talks about is the buffalo / butterfly differences between men and women. Smalley uses this analogy to show men how they unintentionally harm their wife. How things that seem small to a man can crush his wife. His approach is similar to Dr Harley's with only subtle differences. One of Smalley's books has a chapter titled "How to Drive Your Wife Away Without Even Trying". It's a nice way to piggyback the knowledge you get from this site.

Just your showing interest is very encouraging!

Pep

You know, that would be horrible to have your husband think such a thing WHEN IT IS NOT TRUE. Would you be willing to drop this notion that she had SEX with the OM and APOLOGIZE if she takes a polygraph? I think the least you can do is afford her an opportunity to demonstrate her honesty to you. Would you be willing to give her this opportunity? I think that would be a very kind and considerate gesture on your part.

And when she passes the test, would you be willing to apologize for your false accusation?

She did not say this, it is my feeling. I want to give MC a chance to bring it out.

Jim, do you think your MC understands how important this is to recovery after an affair? Many MC do not understand this because they are not trained in the dynamics of adultery or in how to save a marriage.

MC is awesome and really seems to subscribe to a lot of Dr. Harleys beliefs. I am thinking in two different directions about her willingness to admit SA.

Let's say we reconnect. She may think that we are now happy so there is no point in bringing it up.

The other possibility is she will feel we have a strong enough bond that she can now bring it up. I just cannot be sure which way it will go.

Knowing her like I do, I think she would rather not bring it up. I am hoping the MC will show her how important it is to admit everything before total reconciliation can take place.

As I said, we are just over two weeks into recovery mode. Time will tell.

That is what I am concerned about. And that is a huge problem. Because there can't be a recovery if it is based on deceit. All of the truth has to come out in order for there to BE a recovery. You will not have a moments peace as long as this lie remains between you, nor will you be able to ever trust her. [nor should you]

You obviously can't trust someone who is lying to you. That is impossible.

Recovery is CONTINGENT upon honesty, not more lies and not more deceit. Her affair is pertinent information about your life to which you have a right.

Jim,


This is good news on both paragraphs I quoted. I guess I misunderstood. I thought she was still in contact and wanted to be friends with him, sorry about that.


You are taking a risk that the lie will always be a wedge between you. If she has any guilt it may stand in the way of her letting herself be 100% invested in rebuilding.

My plan was to take my A to the grave and it was the guilt that about killed me once my DH and I started to reconnect.

I also agree with Melodylane. She stated this:


You have to have a solid foundation in order to rebuild properly. If you rebuild on a lie, it will be like rebuiding on a pile of sand.

If your W has nothing to hide she should be fine with taking a lie detector test, IMO anyway.

LC

I understand the need for her to reveal the truth. What is so hard now is the fact that we are reconnecting. This weekend has been good. As we continue rebuilding, she may reconnect and fall back in love with me. The problem will be that she will be afraid if she reveals the truth, I will not be able to handle it or will refile for D.

I say I can handle it but I would imagine that it is like someone who is terminally ill passing away. You know it is coming and you accept it before it happens but when the event actually happens, it still hurts.

She has a solo session with MC on Tuesday and I have a solo on Wednesday.

Hi Jim,

Glad to hear things are going well. I'm still a bit leary about OM's divorce, 1100 text messages and your wife filing for divorce a week after his is final.

"I say I can handle it but I would imagine that it is like someone who is terminally ill passing away. You know it is coming and you accept it before it happens but when the event actually happens, it still hurts."

Spot on Jim. I'm not sure if you see the Mac truck bearing down on you. I also want to say that you are handling this extremely well. Almost too well. Sometimes I think "we", as in BS's (betrayed spouses) do this because we desperately want something from the other person. Usually, we want to stay married and we want the other person to commit to staying and trying.

One more question. Have you ever had an affair? Just a random thought that entered my mind because I haven't heard the hurt and anger yet. My thought was maybe you are understanding because you have been guilty of an indiscretion or two yourself.

Please understand Jim, I am not making accusations. Having been through this myself I seem to have developed an insatiable appetite for the psychology of an affair - both sides of the equation. Just trying to pick your brain a bit.

Keep us posted and good luck with the counseling.

-Shattered

She filed in June, 6 Days after D-day. OM's D was final first week of August.


No, I have been faithful. My first posting here was almost 2 months after d-day. Trust me, I went through the hurt, anger, LB moments, roller coaster, rage and so on. 6 weeks in this house were downright nasty. I cried daily. I was devistated. When D-day hit I had the same feeling in my chest as when I found out my father died when I was 12.

I took it upon myself to read HNHN's after a pastor told be about it. I recognized that I really missed the mark on being a husband and a father. I never knew about EN's.

I am not offended by your question. Even though I read just about every page on this site in the last 6 weeks, I did not notice that the forum existed until this past week.

PA confirmation can be achieved by DNA sampling of her unmentionables. According to the CheckMate website, samples can be retraced as far as two years.

During a moment of honesty with your FWW you may want to share that the marriage bed needs to be clear of any cloud of distrust. Explain that regardless of outcome you will still be there for her. Continue that you love her but don't yet fully trust her. Ask her not to make you conduct tests unnecessarily.

I have not been able to find this thread can someone post a link to it for me?

Here you go:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1940653#Post1940653

Thanks for the bump. The post by armywife was interesting.

I think I am strugling with my wifes lack of remorse or visible feeling of guilt. While trying to allow her to emotionally reconnect to me, I am being loving, perhaps too much so.

So I read story after story here on MB. So many signature lines and stories end with divorce. This really stinks.

WW is out of state with a female friend and the friends kids. I miss her and cannot imagine life away from her. She only left yesterday morning.

OM is working and his vehicle has moved around in his driveway so I don't worry that she is really out meeting him.

Just venting for the day, sorry.

LC:

How much time past between the time you felt like he was starting to meet your EN's and the time you were reconnected with your H again? I am really struggling here the last two days. I am chugging away at Plan A. All her EN's are being met and she has gone from ICE COLD HATE to cuddling, hugging and kissing. Still no SF at all for me. The problem is my EN's are not being met and I am starting to feel like I want to bail out.

CJ,

I read your thread and see you are both working with an MC and have read a SAA & HNHN? That's a good start. There are other books that are also helpful but it appears you need a plan instead of more books.

What plan? A plan where you both help each other recover. Often when the Xws starts recovery, the BS gets tired.

In reality a good recovery plan doesn't require the BS to work hard but it does require the Xws to work harder to get back the real family status.

Work to attain a clear mind, calm heart and lots of patience.
Both of you need to get your mind and heart in sync so that you both have the same priorities.

Recovery takes patience and effort. It often takes longer than the length of the original A. Ask your MC to help you both with a plan.

Hope this helps.
Orchid

I have read HNHN and SAA. We are working with a MC.

There are two issues to deal with in our situation. One is my missing all her EN's. Two is her A.

I have corrected myself in terms of meeting her EN's which I was missing for years. I took it upon myself to learn, read, arrange MC and so on. I am working my A$$ off here.

The second issue is her A. To date, she will not even acknowledge anything more than a friendship. She does not admit to an EA nevermind a full blown A, which I believe it was. Other than attending an occasional counseling session, she does not seem to be doing much to help us. We were chatting earier this week and I mentioned someone we know who had an A. Her look went very cold and she was staring off, very distant. It seems she has a lot of guilt inside. I think she needs to come clean, admit everything and we can move forward. I aso think she sees the changes in me, feels really guilty and does not want to admit to the horrible mistake she made.

I am about to head off to the MC right now for a solo session and I am going to mention this.

Sorry Jim I do not have an easy answer for you. You see, I felt the need to keep secrets much longer than I should have so it added a lot of time for us.

I'll try to keep this as short as possible and use a time line. My circumstances are a bit different than some because I was working on rebuilding our marriage, but my DH had no idea that was what I was doing or that I had had an affair. Hopefully this will show how I went from stone cold hate to appreciating so much about my DH.

May 1997 my resentment started building toward my H. Things got progressively worse and by 2002 I couldn't stand to have him sit next to me, let alone touch me. I cringe every time he got anywhere near me. Everything he did and said got on my nerves. IOW, I couldn't stand my H.

May 03: A started with a friend we had known for 5 years. He was also a coworker/neighbor and my best friend's BIL.

Aug 03: I started to catch FOM in lies and my head started to come out of the fog.

Sept 03: I ended the A by telling FOM I just could not be doing what we were doing. At that point my plan was to take the A to the grave. At the same time I found an infidelity debate board comprised of mostly woman who were BS's, WS's and FWS's, who kept trying to convince me why I need to tell my DH about my A. I thought they are all crazy. Why in the world would I tell him about something he had no clue about?

Fall 03: I read HNHN and asked DH to do the same. We didn't fill out the EN questionnaire, but did apply a little of what we learned. I started to soften just a little and did start to have a little hope, but when things don't go as well as I planned I found myself still on the verge of wanting to leave. I continue to feed my secret account. Thinking of our girls and their well being is what kept me from leaving for many years. I was to the point that I didn't think I could stick it out until the youngest was 18 (at the time she was 7.) I knew what it felt like to be happy and alive and was not going to settle for what I had settle for before. We kept plugging along.

April 04: DH and I went on a trip to Hawaii w/o our girls. We always traveled with our girls and this was the first trip we took alone in 13 years. Prior to the trip I told myself if we had nothing to talk about except our girls, I was done. Big surprise, we had a fabulous time and really connected. It was at this point I started softening the most.

Problem: Guilt started to hit hard which resulted in me having a MAJOR panic attack on the plane ride home. Little did I know this was only the start of my major anxiety disorder, (lying, cheating and having secrets will do that to a person who normally would be walking a straight path)

April 04 to Dec 04: As the guilt grew so did may anxiety to the point I was on the verge of a nervous breakdown. Our marriage was improving by leaps and bounds. I read book after book applied things I learned and my DH was following right along. The better things got the worse I felt. It didn't help that I was still working with and living by my FOM. As my guilt grew so did the unhealthy anger I had toward my FOM. I was making his life a living he!!, going between lashing out at him to explaining why I was acting like such a freak,. I'm sure to him it appeared I had multiple personalities. I felt so completely out of control of myself (a very scary feeling).

I can't count how many time I told FOM I was wigging out over the guilt and I needed to tell my H. He would reply with "If you tell you will be ruining 4 lives" or "If you tell I will just tell people you are making it all up." On top of his words I was still posting on the debate board, had the ladies telling me I had to tell and it was all making sense as to why. My head felt like it was literally spinning.

At that point I developed what I call a proverbial ping pong game going on in my head. I had constant thoughts of whether or not to tell. My mind would bounce back and forth with these words. "I need to tell him about the A", "I can't tell, things are going so well it will throw things backward or worse yet, he will leave me." Back to "I need to tell, etc etc. This went on until Sept 04 when I ended up in therapy. My therapist worked wonders and I finally got my head back on straight by Dec 04 and then I knew I had to confess.

Once I confessed the whole truth I knew we could finally start to recover together. To this day my DH tries to make sure he is meeting my needs and I do the same. My advice, keep doing plan A it really does work. It sounds as if she is opening up to it, which means it is working. She should continue to soften and hopefully start to reciprocate.

IMO, if she is hiding things and she is anything like I was she will be afraid to open up, do your best to make her feel safe to do so. Communicate it to her. Let her know no matter how bad she thinks it is you are willing to listen. If she starts to talk, bite your tongue and let her finish. If she did have an A, don't say, "I knew it", "I told you so", etc etc.

After my confession my H hugged me, I felt so safe and knew I did the right thing. 2 weeks after my confession he asked for all the details and after I told him everything he hugged me. Again I felt safe and didn't regret for a second telling him. (regretted the A, but not confessing)

Something to think about, If your W really had nothing more than a friendship what does she have to do to prove that to you? What could she do to make you believe her? Talk to her about this. Tell her why you feel it was more. Talk, talk and talk some more.

I also highly recommend reading The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman. It is a good book to pair with the MB principles. You need to make sure you are speaking your W's love language and also make sure she knows what your love language is. (this will make sense if you read the book.) Reading this book made my whole life make sense.

Also check out Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass. She may see some similarities in her friendship and an emotional A.

Now when I look back, it's hard to imagine the time in our marriage that I honestly hated my H. I cannot imagine my life w/o him in it. I also know there is no way we could have what we have now had I not confessed.

Share my story with her and maybe it will help. I have a great amount of respect for my DH for being willing to work through this mess, especially because I had myself convince he was going to leave me if he knew.

LC

LC:

First of all, thank you SOOO much for spending the time on that response. I think it will help.


This is helpful. I guess I need to realize that it will take her a lot of time to get through this and reconnect.

Let me start by saying my W and I have barely talked about her A. She will not acknowledge it was an EA, let alone a full blown PA. She is not reading HNHN, SAA or any other book. She insists it was a friendship and our entire problem was my not meeting her EN's. I readily admit not having a clue about EN's. As of now, all of the R is on me and only me. She attends MC but that's it. It seems very one-sided and unfair that I was missing the EN's, she had the A and it is all on me to make better. I know this is normal and how it must be for now but that does not make it any easier.


You responded in my other thread about my situation as well as the "proof" of a PA. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2110791&fpart=2

I think I will always believe it was a PA. If I am crazy and nothing more than an EA occurred, I guess I just need to keep going with PLAN A and hope she snaps back. My MC advises AGAINST bringing up the OM at this time. She is reconnecting and he feels that over time she may feel more secure talking about it. If she is not ready, bringing it up would only push her away at this time. Remember we are barely 2 months past D-day.


I think this may be going on in her head but I have no way of knowing. MC says don't bring it up. He is going to work in one-on-one sessions with her to give her guidance.


This is what I am thinking and trying to do. You said yourself that you became afraid to open up because things were going well. I cannot share your story with her at this time although it helps me greatly. I need to keep going with PLAN A. Thanks you again for the time.