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Originally Posted by Tabby1
The fact that this letter is still in existance after 22 years tells me that it was forgotten about and, in essence, insignificant.

Then why doesn't she just SAY THAT? crazy She never says she forgot about it for 22 years.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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"This is supposed to be an ANSWER? That does not explain why you kept the letter for 22 years. This non "answer" sounds CAGEY and is no answer."


RESPONSE:
I never intended to keep the letter! I wrote the letter and I put it away not to be seen again. Kind of like journaling, I guess. When we journal, what do we do with it once it is written? Kind of like these blogs, also. WHY do we respond the way that we do to posts? I didn't realize the letter was still in my keepsake box all these years later. Do you have inventory of everly little belonging in your home? Do you honestly remember every thing and the reason you did things when you were 17? That is 22 years ago for me. IF I had known about the letter (that it was still in my possession)I would have never kept it as it served no purpose for me now or my marriage. There is no reason "WHY" I kept it. Kind of like if you know the drink is poison, why would you drink it? Of course you wouldn't drink it! What if you didn't know that the drink was poison? You couldn't make an informative decision as why not to drink it. So, bottom line, my answer to your question is "no reason". I forgot that it was still in my possession. Thank you for your insight as this is the exact conversation my husband and I have over and over. What do I keep missing?


married 17 years
w (me) 40
h 38
children 8,5,2


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Quote
I never intended to keep the letter! I wrote the letter and I put it away not to be seen again. Kind of like journaling, I guess.

What you say here would have been a satisfactory answer for me, but I don't see this answer anywhere in your posts. Why would you not say: "its only there because I put it there and forgot about it for 22 years?" I read over your posts several times and never got a CLEAR ANSWER explaining WHY you saved the letter.

Have you been more clear with him about the REASON?

In the absence of a clear explanation, your comments such as this one, would make me very concerned: "I said that the past is the past and it is was it is. This makes me the person that I am today."

Does he CLEARLY understand that you "FORGOT" about the letter for 22 years?

And what is "journaling?" Is that like DEAR DIARY?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by AntMatLex
I don't know how you will take this, so please don't be offended as I mean no offense. Is there any possibility that your husband has done something in the recent past (such as an affair of some sort) that would cause him to focus so heavily on your "perceived" infidelity? It may be way off in left field, but it seems to me he is really blowing this out of proportion for something that happened 20 years ago. Especially his suspicion of your phone calls, errands, etc.

Unless the letter was really that explicit and perhaps he feels jealous that you never wanted to do any of those things with him? Even if that is the case, his behavior seems over the top. I know you said you are older, wiser and that sex isn't everything, but for some people it is very important and one of their emotional needs. Is it possible that much of his frustration is because his emotional need for sex isn't being met and so when he saw the letter to another man which fulfilled his need, he felt intense jealousy? That could be why he views it as cheating-you have given something of yourself (albeit 20 some years ago) to another man that he never got, or got a different version of. If this is the case, he may not see the time as something that matters. The fact is, the letter made him see you as a more sexual being than perhaps you have been with him (or at least for some time) and to him, you keeping the letter means that you are still that person but you are not that person for him. Does that make sense?


NO OFFENSE TAKEN. Wow! You hit the nail right on! Thank you for opening my eyes on this angle! What you wrote in paragraph one crosses my mind but I do not believe it is likely. What you wrote in paragraph two describes the whole situation. It is as if my husband replied to this message himself but he does not convey his feelings in the manner that you just did. Okay, so what can I do to heal this situation? Do you think I should be a sexual being to my husband (I'm not being sarcastic) in hopes that this reassures him and to what extent?

married 17 years
w (me) 40
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children 8,5,2


Married 17 years
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Children 8,5,2
Gdar #2121170 09/04/08 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Gdar
I have a huge bag from highschool from all of my "notes" that were passed in class, from friends, old boyfriends. I havent read a single one in a good 10 years, but I still have it.
Heh heh, I had to laugh at this quote!
It's not just a "girl" thing. My DH has a bag (mind you an old black trash bag) that has all his high school stuff in it. I have run into it over the years and we have moved it...let me see...5 times in 17 years. Does he know exactly what is in it? NOPE. I know there is a poster from the cheerleaders that was put on his door the night before the big thanksgiving game. There is some football stuff and there very well may be a letter or a picture in there from his high school girlfriend. There is a box on the top shelf of his closet labeled "Top of Dad's closet" He packed it and taped it up when we moved from MA to FL back in 2/99....yup you read that right. We moved to WI in 8/05 and then back to FL in 8/06 and the box moved all three times and is still taped shut. You should see the man's closet. He will keep it up for a little while then slowly it gets messed up. Then he gets overwhelmed and ignores it. And don't get me started about the piles and piles of books he holds onto just in case he needs to reference them. Now, I have been guilty of being a bit of a pack rat myself but over the years I have become sick of the clutter and have thrown out lots of old stuff. Poor DH is ADHD and can't seem to focus enough to go through the stuff and decide what he really wants to keep. But he will get around to it, eventually rotflmao



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Originally Posted by amandagirl
I have been married for 17 years and together for 22. We have 3 children together. Happily married. Four years ago my spouce found a letter that I wrote, at age 17, prior to us getting together, about a sexual encounter I had. It was pretty explicit. I wrote the letter back then and I put it away in my "keepsake" box. It certainly wasn't for any one else to see or read. The letter was destroyed the evening it was discovered. Things have never been the same since and more so in the past 1.5 years. We fight constantly about this letter and sex. He feels he had been cheated on and that I must harbor feelings for this person because I chose to put the letter in the keepsake box and keep it.
Not really a helpful attitude, but you guys are fighting, and he may be looking for reasons why you folks are fighting. So to him, this may mean you pine for others.

Originally Posted by amandagirl
I don't deny that I wrote the letter or kept it. This is not the issue. The issue is weather or not I intentionally intended to keep such a grotesque letter and bring it into our marriage for some self serving purpose as he accuses me of.
No, the issue is are you willing to accept that he finds the letter troublesome. Which is more important, being right about your reasons, or your marriage? It doesn't matter if you had no bad intent by keeping it. Your refusal to accept that he was troubled by it is causing most of the problem here.

What is wrong with saying that while you did not intend to hurt him, this obviously hurts him and you want to stop hurting him.

Telling him you didn't mean to hurt him is not helpful. If he stepped on your toes dancing, would him telling you it was an accident make your crushed toes feel better? No. So telling him you mean no harm is a fruitless exercise.

Originally Posted by amandagirl
The keepsake box was not in hiding. He just decided to open it up one evening. He feels that I am in denial and try to defend why I had kept this letter for so many years. I never revisited the keepsake for the sake of rekindling these past feelings or wonder about "what if". He feels now that I just settled for him because I was unable to "land" this person I wrote about in the letter (or any of the other guys I had been with).
So he's insecure. Does he have any reasons to think this? Let's read on.
Originally Posted by amandagirl
I was 17 years old at the time. I was a stupid and inexperienced teenager! He brings up my past quite often these days as I had several sexual experiences prior to my spouce and I getting together. He says he feels he just doesn't compare now to the other men I had in my life (as a teenager). Our sex drives are very different and he equates sex/making love as my expression of love for him.
OK, so this is how he feels loved, and if he's not getting enough sex, or as much sex, or sex that is filled with the kind of enthusiasm as you wrote in the letter, he could feel as if he's not loved.

Originally Posted by amandagirl
His love language is physical contact. He strongly feels because of my past sexual experiences that this must be the reason for my low sex drive and sexual desire for HIM. Prior to getting married we did have a very sexual relationship and early on into our marriage. So the story goes...we had three children, our lives are busy, I am older and wiser now and know that sex does not equate love.
Bzzzzt. His feeling loved is based ENTIRELY on his emotional needs. You don't get to pick them for him. So you cannot say you love him and then say he is wrong about how sex conveys love.

It may not send a loving message to you. But when you don't have desire for him, you ARE sending the message that he's not loved. Look at the concepts here. Sex IS a LEGITIMATE emotional need. You cannot just dismiss it as you have done here, and say the problem is with him.

This problem is one you've helped create, by denying him his greatest emotional need.

Combine that with your enthusiastic and graphic text and you can understand why he might feel unloved.

You've just said his idea of what love is is wrong. Or you've said you don't love him enough to meet his greatest need. His need is not valid and therefore you don't need to meet it.

My advice is to meet that need with FAR MORE enthusiasm than you had as a 17 year old girl. Instead of telling him that sex is not love, tell him that you love him so much that you are enthusiastic about having passionate sex with him as often as he would like.

You cannot just dismiss his legitimate emotional needs in the fashion you've done here and expect him to act any differently with respect to the letter you kept for so long.

Originally Posted by amandagirl
I just do not have the need or desire for sex as I once did.
But apparently he does. Love is about meeting the other person's need. Your lack of desire for sex does not mean it's OK to impose this upon him. That is an unloving act to impose this unilaterally upon him.

Originally Posted by amandagirl
I have not cheated on my husband nor do I do anything to evoke suspicion.
He get's to decide what makes him suspicious, not you. So if your desire and enthusiasm have waned, he has cause for concern. It may not be that your are cheating. But he can legitimately treat your love as suspect. To him, you don't appear to love him, based on what you've said are his greatest needs and your response to them.

So he logically concludes you don't love him.

The letter and what was described is what he longs for, what his vision of a loving relationship is, and you tell him no, no, no, that's not love and you aren't getting any of that.

He's RIGHTFULLY resentful.

Originally Posted by amandagirl
However, he does not trust me and believes my days are consumed with my past relationships (as a teenager) and how my life must be miserable because I just settled for him.
He did trust you. He trusted you to meet this need and you don't meet the need. You did so with him and apparently with others before you met him, and with enthusiasm. So he has a valid point and valid concerns.

Instead of telling him his concerns are misplaced, why not address them in the most effective fashion possible. By treating his desire and needs as valid and enthusiastically meeting them. No excuses!

Originally Posted by amandagirl
He questions phone calls that come into our house, why I took so long at the grocery store, he checks my e-mails, etc. My life is pretty much consumed with our young children. So, my question is this...did I cheat on my husband?
You may not have cheated on him, but it seems he feels cheated, and for some reason. You have unilaterally told him that his sexual desire is wrong and that he should feel loved even though he is not satisfied sexually.

So he rightfully feels cheated.

If he knows you were more sexually active before, and you are less sexually active with him, then he has a legitimate question.

One should have the MOST and BEST sex with their spouse. Unless you are medically unable to, you should be having MORE sex with your husband now than with any other man you've ever known.

There are no good reasons not to have sex with your husband, none!

By not having sex with him, you are telling him you don't love him enough to take his desire and needs seriously.
Originally Posted by amandagirl
And, what can I do to repair this damage I have caused to my spouce. I did nothing intentional to hurt him and I certainly do not have alterior motives. He has said he doesn't ever believe he can or will ever forgive me for bringing this letter into our marriage. He said it took alot of work just to come to terms with my sexual past and now he finds this letter. He feels our marriage is a lie and now questions every other little "off" things during our 17 years of marriage that were never given a second thought as an issue.

married 17 years
me 40
spouce 38
children 8,5,2

Stop treating sex as bad. You may have had a checkered past. But if your husband wants sex 2 or 4 times each day, this is not a bad thing. Stop treating it like it is.

The letter and his reaction are merely symptoms. The problem is you are unilaterally telling him that he doesn't need that much sex, and that "real" love isn't sex.

You know what, real love includes lots of passionate, enthusiastic sex.

It's not the only thing. But I don't know of any way to have real romantic love with a spouse without it. As long as both of you are healthy enough, you should be all over one another every chance you get.

That's what I think the issue is really all about.

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Quote
Four years ago my spouce found a letter that I wrote

doesn't sound like you brought this into your M.

He sounds like he needs to deal with his jealousy, insecurity and anything else that contributes to the idea that this letter (and it's circumstances) have now destroyed the trust in you M and/or your M all together.

If you feed the chaos...

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continuous, how will that help the problem and how does that work with Marriage Builders principles? Telling your spouse he is "insecure" and to get over it is going to make the problem WORSE, NOT BETTER. Not to mention that it is very disrespectful. Saying that does NOTHING to alleviate his insecurity, I assure you.

Enlightened EX, great post! smile

I suspect Amanda's H is a lot like me in that he is a logical, black and white thinker. As such when he asked the question, why did you save this letter, he became alarmed when he didn't get a straight answer. *I* became alarmed when I read your posts, Amanda, and didn't find an answer to the most important question. Have you said straight out to your h, "I FORGOT THE LETTER WAS THERE IN ALL THESE YEARS?"

See, his biggest worry, in addition to not getting his sexual needs met, is that you saved it BECAUSE you are hankering for that guy. When in reality, it was only there because you forgot it! I would make sure he is CLEAR on that point because I did not get that key factor from reading all your posts.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Enlightened EX, great post! smile

I agree, great post!

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
I suspect Amanda's H is a lot like me in that he is a logical, black and white thinker. As such when he asked the question, why did you save this letter, he became alarmed when he didn't get a straight answer. *I* became alarmed when I read your posts, Amanda, and didn't find an answer to the most important question. Have you said straight out to your h, "I FORGOT THE LETTER WAS THERE IN ALL THESE YEARS?"

Melody, I think you may be a great sounding board for the OP. I did notice you jumped on this right away because you saw something others didn't. I agree with you about the way people process things and the OP may not understand how her husband thinks. I suspected she forgot all about the letter but didn't post (suggest) that because I thought you asking her directly was a great idea. For me I think I would have been like her. I would think I would have said I didn't know it was in there but I don't know if my wording would have been clear for my B&W thinker DH. In a way this post has helped me in understanding the B&W mind a little better. I am more of an emotional thinker so DH and I have to work a little harder understanding how the other processes things.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
See, his biggest worry, in addition to not getting his sexual needs met, is that you saved it BECAUSE you are hankering for that guy. When in reality, it was only there because you forgot it! I would make sure he is CLEAR on that point because I did not get that key factor from reading all your posts.
Again, great advice from someone who sees things from a different angle than the OP.


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Enlightened Ex, Everything you have said makes so much sense to me! My husband conveys these concerns to me, but not as elequently as you did, and so I tend to look at his needs as being selfish because I feel he is in the "you owe me" mode. I have read your post several times now and plan to use your tools with my husband which I am certain, no, positive, will help our relationship! I just needed a brick thrown at me, a second opinion, I guess, to realize that my husband is not simply being irrational and that his thoughts and feelings are TRULY justified and important to him. I agree, I do not get to decide his feelings.

QUOTE
""the issue is are you willing to accept that he finds the letter troublesome. Which is more important, being right about your reasons, or your marriage? It doesn't matter if you had no bad intent by keeping it. Your refusal to accept that he was troubled by it is causing most of the problem here.""


You are right, our marriage is more important than about who is right or wrong about the reasons. EYE OPENER! I will share this with my husband. Your post has the overtone of a MC and I thank you very much for that. I appreciate you honesty and not bashing me on this issue!

married 17 years
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Married 17 years
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Amandagirl,
I was sort of in the same position as your husband. Sex is one of my top emotional needs, and my primary love language is physical touch. Instinctually that is how I express love and feel that love is expressed to me. It is not one of my wife's top needs, and I went for a period of about 18 months in which this need was unmet for me. My wife did not want sex nearly as often as I did, and as a result I felt unloved and unwanted, even though she did all sorts of other little things for me.

It took her having an affair for me to do the research into how strong marriages are built, and I recognize now that I was not meeting her needs as well as I should have. She was just as guilty of not meeting my needs too, but the lesson we learned is that we have to identify each other's needs and meet them. It is a continually reinforcing process because the more I meet her needs, the more she WANTS to meet my needs, even if they are not her top needs. And vice versa.

What Im getting at is that both you and your husband need to identify your emotional needs and speak frankly about them and offer ideas how those needs could be met. As he works to meet your top needs, you will become more interested in meeting his need for sex, even though you have a different attitude towards it. As you meet his need for sex, he will more interested and proactive in meeting your needs, say conversation or affection, even if those are harder for him.

If you can't get him on board with the idea of emotional needs (some guys resist the thought that self-improvement is necessary), you can always just dive right and meet his need for sex without any return. You will probably notice your marriage improve anyways as the concept takes root subconsciously.


ex-WW had 2 PAs in first 2 years. Buh-bye.
Divorce finalized: 1/28/09
Now just living and loving again.
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