How about bringing her here to the forums?

There's really not much more advice to give to you until you have a fully recommitted W to work with, and something has to shake her out of this delusion of hers.

Just prep her that she will NOT get a free pass on any BS justifications, and as long as she's honest with everyone, there are many on here, including many FWW's, that will reach out to her. Let her know to expect a few 2x4's, because its bound to happen, but for her to simply concentrate on those posters who are sincere in their advice and ignore the others.

I can also see a benefit in having some of the FWW's advise her about the toxicity of her BF so you don't have to be the bad guy on this point.

At this point, what do you have to lose?

P.S. - FF is out of her office today on customer calls, but I think she has some perspective that she'd like to share later concerning YOUR state of mind and approach to this, but I'd rather her relay her own thoughts.

I think you're (F?)WW is very much in Renter/Freeloader mode. Perhaps she's waiting for those "good feelings" to come before she does anything that resembles "working" on your M. In the interim, it's going to be "business as usual", which will likely including hiding contact with OM (because that's going to a source of "good feelings" for her).

I think you really have a choice to make here. You could continue with a really good Plan A, drop the M and R talk for awhile and hope that she gets those "good feelings" for you eventually and then "buys in" to your M.

Noname2,

I ran across Want2Stay on another thread and gave him a "heads up" to check out your thread. FogFree and I were discussing your situation last night, and we both thought that Want2Stay could help you out, as I think his experiences would be very pertinent to your situation ... and as luck would have it, he posted this morning and I got the opportunity to send him here, and he said he would check out your thread.

LISTEN TO HIM ... he could very well represent the "voice of experience" for you and your situation.

NN,

I'm going to try to give you my perspective on how being a strong and assertive man can possibly jolt your wife back into reality. I may ramble, so bear with me!

Whenever MR discovered my infidelity, he DID NOT waiver, he DID NOT balk; he was absolutely the MOST confident and unflinching that I had EVER seen him when he confronted me. He asked me immediately where I wanted to be and the way that he relayed that question to me shocked and jolted me to my core. I said "Here" and even before he knew about MB, he demanded NC. I think by now you have read our stories, and know that I did email the POSOM a few days after the NC call, but I thankfully got out of the fog rather quickly and never looked back. MR has had a couple of severe F-it days, and rightfully so, and with ALL of them, I was terrified that I was going to lose him. I never in my life had dreamed what it would be like without him, but on those days, I DID think about it, and did not care for that possibility in the least. His assertiveness and forcefulness on those days had a way of cutting through any type of crap that was going on--I knew he was serious, and that I'd better get my head out of my [censored].

Before all of this, I knew that MR loved me, but I really had no idea just HOW MUCH he really did love me. Whenever he stood up for OUR MARRIAGE and ME, I was stunned by the depth of his love and commitment, and that had an impact on me that no one can imagine. It immediately said to me that I mattered and that I was worth fighting for, and the way that he stood up FOR me and TO me was powerful beyond words.

I'm guessing that your wife is a lot like me--I don't know her so I can only guess--she loves a strong, confident man who will fight for her. Show her that you ARE that man, NN. If she sees you being confident and strong and standing tall, instead of letting her run over you, you might be surprised with how she reacts. If I'm reading your thread correctly on what happened last night, you did exactly that when you confronted her. I'll bet it got her to REALLY thinking about what her life would be like without you, and by that I mean SERIOUSLY thinking about it-what the ramifications could/would be. So this morning she says that she wants to work on the marriage--the important question is DO YOU??? I believe that you do, but you also have every right to divorce her if you so choose. I believe that you will fight for your marriage, your wife, and your girls. If she ever does FULLY commit to recovery, she will one day be appalled at her behavior over the past year.

NN, I hope that some of the things that I have said will strike a chord with you, if not, I apologize for wasting your time! But I truly believe that you are a good and honorable man, and I am so hoping that your wife will see this, if she doesn't already. Be strong, be assertive, and be confident in standing up TO her and FOR her--you are totally in the right here.

I wish you the best. Let us know how things go tonight. We'll be thinking of you!

Today at about 9am I was at work and got a call from my wife. She works from home. She said she was laying on the floor and there was blood all over, she said she just woke up. So I immediately left work to get to her. I got home in about 15 minutes, I kept her on the phone the whole ride home. She was laying on the floor and felt too weak to get up. She had been sitting at her desk working and must have passed out, she hit her head and nose and the blood had come from her nose. Her face was covered when I got home. I quickly cleaned her up a little and took her to the ER.

They didn't find anything wrong with her. She had a number of tests done. Her blood pressure was low so they gave her a couple IV's. It finally came up and they let her come home. She has a EKG monitor on her here tonight and needs to take it back tomorrow. She has to see a neurologist now to determine if she had a seizure.

We didn't do any relationship talk today. I spent the day taking care of her and making sure our girls didn't causer her too much stress tonight. Today we were able to put all of this crap behind us and work together. I don't know if this will have any affect on her thoughts or not but I sure felt close to her today.

FogFree

Your post does help me. I know what I need to do and am trying to do my best. I am focusing on myself now and being the man I used to be. I have slipped a couple of times but overall I have been myself again.

Just a heads up, have the cardiologist check her for neurocardiogenic syncope. Info, the brain doesn't communicate with the heart and there is a drastic BP drop. seizure may follow. If she has a history of "fainting" this may be her case.
It usually shows up in childhood or early adulthood, sometimes it goes away, sometimes, not. Dehydration, stress will bring it on. Have the docs do a tilt table test on her. I know this disorder up close and personal. Beta blockers will help the condition. It is electrophysiological. Best of luck on this GF

NN,

My thoughts are with you and your wife. MR and I won't be around this weekend, we'll be out of town, but will check in as soon as we can. Hopefully, your being there for her during this will help wake her up. And I truly hope that there is nothing seriously wrong with her. Let us know what the doctor says today.

Keep your chin up! You've got people here rooting for BOTH of you.

My MIL is really concerned about my wife. She thinks she needs help dealing with stress and anxiety. MIL thinks she exercises too much and doesn't eat enough. This one I don't really go for as I see her eat and she does fine. She has worked very hard over the past 2 years since our last daughter was born to get back into shape. She has done a great job and looks great.

My wife does need some help dealing with anxiety and stress. I wanted to get her friends opinion. Even though I don't care for this friend right now we were friends in the past. So I sent her an email this morning asking what she thought. Here is part of her response.

I think if you're going to ask her to see a doctor regarding any of the things you're worried about, this is the most appropriate time (with what happened yesterday and everything). She wants nothing more than for you to take care of her and show her you love her even if you think it's going overboard. She wants attention from you. I'm sure she's told you that she wants you to do things without her having to ask for them. I've talked to her already today and she's stated she was feeling pretty good about you calling her to "check in" on her.

I'm not planning on dumping my story on this friend but what she said was encouraging to me. I know my wife wants me to take care of her and not have to ask. The fact that she made a comment to her friend today is good I think.

I will be talking to my wife this weekend and telling her that we need to talk with her doctor about her issues. If she could manage her thoughts better maybe she wouldn't be spending the majority of her time wondering if she is doing the right or wrong thing all the time. She needs to be able to relax and just have a good time.

NN2,

Welcome to MB. Sorry for the circumstances that brought you here. I sure hope with the billing I got from MR I can live up to the hype. I've read your thread and a lot has happened so excuse me if I jump around a bit.

A little background on my situation. My DW had an EA/PA from 7/06-2/07 with the producer/engineer of a demo cd I had arranged for her to record for our 10th wedding anniversary. She confessed 2/17/07 and we spent about 9 months right were you find yourself now. I call it "Recovery Limbo." Where the WS sort of gets what they have done but holds onto the entitlement of it and refuses to commit to rebuilding. It is a living H3LL! Things got so bad in our situation that in 12/07 I told my DW LaLa that I wanted a D. I was done and she knew it. I'll be honest with you. I was scared beyond belief. I couldn't imagine not spending the rest of my life with LaLa. I hated the fact that I would be tearing my family apart, but I could not take anymore. Everything changed when I took a stand. When I defined what I needed in order to continue with recovery instead of the crumbs I was being given LaLa took notice. She came here that night and began posting. Now, we are about 10 months into recovery and things are so much better. We are rebuilding one day at a time together. You need to take action now, NN. The longer you let things go along in this state the more damage you are allowing to be done to yourself. It will make actual recovery that much more difficult once your DW is onboard with recovery. LaLa has become the model FWW(hate labels) and I still have issues because of the damage I allowed to be done.


First and foremost....DO NOT LEAVE YOUR HOME UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!

As Pom told you, this would completely screw your chances at custody should your situation turn towards D. More to that, I've read where your WW is seeking to live the single life and go out to bars and stuff. You should be documenting all of it in case you need it in the future. Anytime she leaves your children in your care so she can do "her own thing" or "get space" it should be documented. I still see a lot of hope in your situation, but you need to be prepared in case things do not turn around.

The Toxic Best Friend
I hate to say it, but really she has to go. LaLa had a toxic BF. Actually, I considered her one of my good friends too. She lived next door to us in our first apartment and we had known her for 10+ years. She enabled and supported LaLa's A. She was a single mom who didn't need no man. You know the type. Encouraged my DW to go out and do the bar scene and all the same stuff you are going through. Luckily, my DW and her had an unrelated fight and the wool was pulled from LaLa's eyes. She almost immediately saw her XBF for the loser she was and quit all contact with her.

This BF is not a friend to your marriage. Married people have NO business trolling in bars. Especially since you mentioned that this BF is separated from her DH. I would suspect that she is also involved in some type of A. You know the saying misery loves company? That may be exactly where this BF will lead your WW. I know for a fact that is what LaLa's XBF tried to do. Today, she has lost her job, her house, custody of her DS and her 16 DD had a baby by a man that is now in jail making her a 37 year old grandmother. She almost took my DW with her. You gotta love karma....

It's your call though. At the bare minimum, I would say your boundary should be no more bars. Period! It's a consequence to the choices she made.

Withdrawal
There was some concern mentioned that your WW may still be in contact. I don't necessarily believe that is the case. You say you have all the bases covered as far as snooping goes so contact may not be the case. We went through about 10 weeks of withdrawal before LaLa started to snap out of it. Mostly, because the POSOM proved to be a real loser. So, I can see if the fantasy of the A was as strong that your DW could still be in withdrawal. Plus, the WW clings to the fantasy of it all to avoid looking in the mirror at the choices they have made. Hang in there and don't take anything she says to heart. It's all FOG BABBLE at this point until she faces reality. LaLa wrote a fantastic post you should check out. It's called " Inside The Wayward Mind ." It will give you an idea about just how ridiculously thick the FOG can be.

What you should be doing now
FF and MR have given you some awesome advice. You need to be in Plan A and appear as attractive to your DW as you can. Do the things you did when you were dating to make her fall in love with you. Show her that you have changed the justifications she used to have the A. Remember, you are 50% responsible for the conditions in you M that led to the A, but your WW is 100% responsible for the choice to have the A. The key is though do not be a doormat. Define your boundaries and stick to them. Formulate a plan on how you will handle everything should she not agree to make an effort toward recovery. Plan for how you will secure your finances, cancel all joint bank accounts and credit cards and have an idea who you would use should you need to consult an attorney for D. Maybe make a list of your requirements for recovery. Hope for the best, but plan for the worst. Take control of the only person you can which is YOU. You have some serious soul searching to do NN. I know exactly how incredibly difficult it is, but you must find the courage to take a stand. Continuing on your current path will only serve to cause you untold amounts of pain. I'm not going to lie to you and say that there is not risk in this stance, but in reality you have nothing to lose at this point. You are taking a stand to save your M. One where you can both be happy again. Nobody deserves what you WW choose to do. Since your WW is unwilling to read the books, I too would suggest that bringing her to MB would be a great idea. I'm sure LaLa would be willing to offer her advice and help her understand how to heal your M. Hope some of what I have said helps your situation. Hang in there and keep the faith......

Want2Stay

p.s. Sorry about your WW health issues. This is a perfect Plan A opportunity for you to take care of her and show concern. She will remember this once the FOG clears.

Want2Stay thank you for the post.

I will not leave my home. I have been told that here and by all of my friends and family. Sometimes I think it might make her realize what she has but I know legally it would be stupid for me to do.

The toxic best friend was at least having an A in the past. I found this out by listening to BF and WW phone calls. I have been friend with BF and her H for years. I sold BF out when I saw her H that night. The BF was mad at me for awhile but in the end she realized it wasn't my fault she did it. The H is a friend of mine and I would have wanted him to share the info with me if it were the other way around. My wife and BF have bee arguing a little more as of late. Things aren't working out good for BF in her separation and my wife is actually telling BF the truth. I have heard these phone calls. Maybe my wife is seeing the light a little bit in BF marriage and hopefully in ours too. BF and my wife may do their friendship in by themselves. They have gotten into arguments in the past and not spoken for months, hopefully this happens again now.

I really don't believe any contact has been made with OM. I can find no evidence of it. I just think she is still hooked on him a little.

I have really been trying to focus on myself as of late. I have seen that over and over here on these boards that I need to stand up for myself and take care of me. I will continue to do this. I do have some work to do though, I know that. I have talked to my wife about what I want and expect in a wife and in our recovery. I did get my point across the other night. I will not back down again and I refuse to be lied to anymore. I've taken enough and she knows that.

The fact that she fainted yesterday and got banged up is not good, but does give me an opportunity to show how much I care. I have been doing just that, and will continue to take care of her, I know she appreciates it.

We had a very good weekend. There was no relationship talk. She seems to be putting in more of an effort than she has in the past. We talked and joked around this weekend in a different way than we had in the past. She just seemed to care about myself and us more this weekend. I don't really know how to describe it, it's just a feeling I have.

We go to see the doctor today to see if she broke her nose when she fainted last week. Then tomorrow we see a neurologist. This situation has given me a good opportunity to take care of her. Her friend did make a comment to me that my wife was happy that I had been checking on her, so that is good. She does like the fact that I'm taking care of her.

Just an Update:

My wife has been very upbeat with me the past few days. Every time I talked to her on the phone yesterday and this morning there is just a different tone in her voice. She seems to be happy and eager to talk to me. I'm sure some of this may be due to her fainting a week ago. But maybe that incident woke her up a little bit. I don't know but things just feel really good right now.

I really need SF and it has been almost 2 months. I have not asked for this I'm just living my life. Our 8 year anniversary is on the 16th. We have a nice dinner and evening planned. Hopefully that will be the night but I'm trying really hard not to ask for it because I don't want to seem needy.

I am taking her in this morning for an EEG test. The doctor thinks she may have had a seizure last week. So she still cannot drive a car. Tomorrow we go in for an MRI of her head. Then next Wednesday we meet with the doctor to go over the results. Hopefully they can rule out the seizure. If not she may not be able to drive for 6 months according to the doctor.

I'm happy to hear it sounds like things are progressing and your wife is coming around.

I hope everything goes well at the dr's and your wife is OK. Keep us updated.

Everything with my wife is fine. All the tests have come back negative. We meet with the neurologist on Wednesday, so we should know more then.

I lost it tonight. I asked her if she was ever going to touch me again. She asked what I mean. She said she rubs my back in the morning once in awhile. I want her to kiss me not me having to kiss her. I want her to sit next to me during our tv shows. Of course I want SF, but anything else would help know. Is this normal for her to not want to touch me?

She said she wishes she could go back to the past week when there was no pressure on her about us. I would like that too but I just want my wife to show me some form of affection. I know I shouldn't look needy but I did break down tonight.

She is not ready to just yet. That's the downside of Plan A. with someone who is in withdrawal. You have to meet their needs without having them meet yours. To make this work you're really going to have to be patient with her. I'm not and expert so hopefully someone who is will weigh in here. It may be a long time before she will be interested in touching you, kissing you or having SF. Right now I know that would be a huge deposit in your love bank.

She also doesn't probably understand that when she rejects you for SF she's essentially rejecting you, not just SF. Does that make sense? You're desperate for that contact to prove that she still loves you. She's not getting that. She thinks it's just SF that you want.

Glad all the tests came back fine.

Well on Tuesday of this week it will be our 8th anniversary. I went out to buy a card today and just like on her birthday I got pissed off reading all of the cards. They all talk about love and it just pisses me off because none of them fit my wife. I finally settled on one. I bought some other stuff, I have a whole day planned for her. We work that day but I am going to leave flowers and a couple other things in her office before I leave for work. This is one of her biggest needs that I hadn't been meeting before.

Do I want to do any of this? No. I have no desire to do anything for her right now. She doesn't give me crap in return and I don't know how much longer I can do this. we have plans to go out that night but again I don't really care. Why do I have to just keep meeting her needs when she doesn't do anything in return? How long does this take?

We cannot afford to D right now. I have spent this weekend looking for a second job so that hopefully by spring time I can tell her to go F herself. I am really having a hard time giving with nothing in return. I am doing my best but this really sucks.

It kills me to think about ending this but I want to tell her tonight when she gets home that I don't want to be married to her anymore. How long until she starts to come around?

Perhaps some of the veterans will weigh in on the time limit here. I'm not sure there is a certain time limit- it is probably different for everyone.

I don't see how you could do Plan B living in the same house since you say that you cannot afford to divorce. My main point is that it will take alot of hard work to see some results and that it may not turn around as fast as you'd like.

Have you thought about counseling with the Harley's??

I have some bad moments this weekend. I reverted back to my old self a couple of times. I tried to start something up with her when we got home Friday night and she didn't want too. I asked if she was ever going to again and it just went downhill from there. I was doing good staying away from that.

Last night we went to her work party. Towards the end of the night we moved to a different spot and I stopped to use the bathroom. When I got back to her I stood next to her and she pretty much ignored me. I went off and talked with a couple of the guys I know there. For the next hour she just ignored me. This upset me and I told her about it on our way home. Again this is what I had been avoiding and not showing that it bothered me.

Today she was out and she called to ask me about something. During this she got upset with me about something and I just laid into her. I am done with her making comments to me when she gets upset, so I just let her have it.

This was a bad weekend. I don't know why it took until now for me to look at my actions. I'm not going to justify any of her actions but my job now is to be strong and confident, pretty much the opposite of how I acted.

It's hard but I will keep plugging away here but at the same time I'm going to plan for my future without her.

Are you still keeping up with your snooping to make sure there isn't any further contact with any of the OM?

If there isn't any contact, she is still probably in a state of withdrawal in which it is hard to meet her ENs and she won't be in a position to try to meet any of yours. This is from "Coping with Infidelity, Part 3":
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5061_qa.html
I've read that a rule of thumb for withdrawal can be expected to be about the same time of the A...it turned out to be true for my H. How long was your W's EA?

I believe I have read the best thing you can do while she is still in w/d is to avoid LBers rather than trying so hard to meet her ENs. I can understand how it must be getting hard for you as you haven't had your ENs met in so long. Hang in there.