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I know. I think I was being PICKY..
But, it's SOOOO IMPORTANT to maintain your SELF-RESPECT...
HEAD UP, CHEST OUT...not wishy-washy..to the point..
He doesn't need lots of EXPLANATION..it's not THAT COMPLICATED...
The message..I'M MOVING ON...
I think that is sooo KEY..for RECOVERY...SELF-RESPECT..."I'm not taking anymore of your crap"...
Lately, NOT2 and MOGI are examples of that on the FORUM...
My husband had to GET and KNOW that I would be FINISHED with him and NOT his FRIEND if he did not choose me as HIS WIFE...and he is the PROUD TYPE, too...
I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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I am not being a negative Nelly here when I say that Mimi's approach will also give you a more solid answer as to what Drac's position is in all of this. If he is a bonafide full time cake eater/full time renter, he'll let you know and then you REALLY can move on.
I made it very clear to the Z what I wanted to do and he made it clear he was unwilling. It has helped me a great deal to know that, as of now, there is no hope for him to 'come around'. One day, he could, but I can't see sitting and waiting for that to happen, putting my life on hold for so long. You could be waiting out a long drought.
Anyway, just thought I pop in, drop my $.02 and sail.
Lawyer's office called today; she is drafting up my limited divorce.
Me-BS-38
Married 1997; son, 8yo
Divorced April 2009
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Boy, I agree, and think it is about an ultimatum.
It comes down for a choice for him, does he want the friendship and the loving commitment that comes with reconciliation with his WHOLE heart, or the email-only, emergency-only, co-parenting that will happen for the rest of your lives.
I think he is having a hard time believing this is for good, he has not come to a place of regret yet, because it appears he thinks he can always "come back".
Have you reached that point where it's now...or never? Or will there ever be this point? Or will it always be left with..."when you want me I'll be waiting..." Or is it, "It is time to decide and stop playing with my emotions, wanting me hanging in the wings until you finish sowing your wild oats..."
What is YOUR choice?
Are you afraid if you made him make up his mind today, drawing a line in the sand, he would choose to stay away?
Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we are here we might as well dance!
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Bugs: Here are my thoughts: Drac,
You asked the other day via email if we are not speaking again, and I wanted to address that question.
I've thought about our recent conversations. It was last year that I told you that I could not speak to you while you continued your affair with "the ho". I don't know that I did a very good job of explaining 'why' (I had to stop having conversations directly with you, but I will try to be direct with you now.)
I simply can not stand to hear your voice. It just hurt too much. I had to protect myself from the continued pain of loving you still. I didn't want our marriage to end. Continuing to speak to you, to hear your voice made me unable to cope with the loss of the most important person/relationship I'd ever had in all my life, and the loss of The Love of my life. It was a stab in my heart ever time we'd speak.
Life has gone on since then. Divorce, new houses, new lives. The gaping wounds on my heart & soul are no longer controlling my very existence and have begun to heal.
I heard that "the ho" was gone, and seemingly for good this time. So, I opened the door to communication with you.
I invited the conversation. I enjoyed the interaction & the attention. Your call a few weeks ago took me by surprise, as did most of what you had to say. You said at the time you had been drinking, so I don't know if you recall it much. Several things you said did surprise me to hear, but what surprised me most of all was that it touched my heart. Repairing wounds faster than they had been being repaired. I, frankly, wasn't prepared for that.
I realize you are still seeking others for relationships. I believed, that you may have been interested in reconciliation.
Since possible reconcilliation does not appear to be one of your goals, then I can not continue having direct conversations with you. The potential further pain that would cause me would be far to great to endure again.
We can be co-parents, but I cannot be your friend. That is very hard for me to say to the person who was the best friend I ever had. I still harbor too much hope for us that it hurts too much to be just friends with nothing more possible in the future.
So, I ask that we stick with communicating via email, and only about the kids. As always, actual emergencies are a reason for a phone call. Still here: If Bugs is giving him an ultimatum, so be it. Drac CAN NOT think that Bugs will be waiting around in two-three or more years, pining away. She revealed herself. He responded. But..... She is putting the ball back in his court. "I am open to a future relationship with you. But I will not be open to you forever. IF you do, come to me and we can try." Pretty simple message, really. Bugs: I think you are handling this quite well. Stalkerboy needs to be sent away. Yes, YOU ARE A CATCH. But bite the right bait. Your worth the wait. LG
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Thanks everyone for the input.
Well, with chin up, chest out, and wearing my "What would Steve say" hat, I've made some modifications to the letter. Less wimpy. More simple facts of the choice Iam making for me.
Without a doubt, given the ultimatim Drac will take a pass on me. He's been clear about that. Now, is that because he thinks I'll still be waiting in the wings? I don't know. I don't know that he has any clue that I have continued to harbor hope for us all of this time. He's always perceived me as 'strong & decisive', so likely as he stated early on, he's convinced himself I've moved on long ago, despite any of the times that I've told him otherwise.
The point of the letter is to let him know why we aren't talking, why we won't be friends (by letting him know that I still have love for him), and at the same time letting him know that I'm not waiting around for him to 'finish sowing his wild oats'.
Honestly, I believe he's long been in the place of accepting that I've moved on. He doesn't really care that I continue to have love for him, as he does not believe reconciliation to something better is possible with me.
Yes, he would continue to be a cake-eater by having and using my 'friendship'. He doesn't know what we know about how that works - he's uneducated. I can't educate him until/unless he steps forward wanting that. Even unconciously, he's choosing the email only co-parenting with calls for emergencies only.
Yes, he took the bait at getting more when I opened the door, but he's only come as far as the threshold. He's not wanting to come on in. He's moved on.
And I move on, too. Don't get me wrong, I am honest enough with myself to admit that I haven't slammed the door. I've merely turned my back on it to attend to other matters in my own house. I still have a ear open listening for the doorbell ring.
BS (me)
ExWS -Drac
DD 9
DSS 15
D Day 11/06
Divorced 10/01/07
"You Can't Fix Stupid" - My Mom
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Bugs:
He knows there is a doorbell.
If he can't push it, then......
(((Bugsy)))
LG
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He knows there is a doorbell.
If he can't push it, then......
(((Bugsy))) EXACTLY.. 
I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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Hey Bugs, I have to say that I can so identify with some of what you are going through. Since exWW has been back from her "vacation" I have allowed her to visit with the kids some in our home. This was something she had wanted to do leading up to the D being final and I was against it because I thought it would be confusing for the kids and also would have been enabling her. I have only allowed it recently for the kid's benefit since they missed so much of the summer with her. Even though I feel like I do a good job of staying detached while she is here, I can't do it anymore because I still get into a funk afterward and, as I was afraid of, it is impacting DS7's behavior both while she is here and for some time after she leaves, and to be honest I am tired of having to deal with that myself. This is too close to what she wanted all along, which was a "friendly divorce" just like the example she threw out of Bruce Willis and Demi Moore (bleah, like Hollywood is a good example of anything to follow) So I'm borrowing against the advice you get as it relates to me. Hope you don't mind 
Divorced on 3/25/2008 but I have primary legal and physical custody of my 2 kids. Plan A Thread Plan B ThreadEphesians 5:25 - Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
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Bugs....
This isn't really what I was advocating. But maybe Steve steered you differently.
Have you already sent your message?
My "vision" of this would have been to start filling his lovebank. Make as many deposits as you can (for a limited amount of time...like a month). He needs to fall back in love with you. And I think that could easily happen.
Because your account balance isn't high enough to give ultimatiums....
So no...he's not ready for reconciliation. Because he doesn't have that "in-love" feeling for you -- YET --. My thought was to Plan A for a month. Get him CRAVING you.
You can't rush him into wanting to reconcile. Marathon, remember?
I'm so sorry I haven't been able to keep up with your thread.
I was working at the RNC and its been a crazy crazy week!
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I was working at the RNC and its been a crazy crazy week! Lexxxy, how old are you and what state are you Governer of? 
BS 33 EXWW 35 DS 5
OM1 9/06 - 03/07
OM2 04/07 - present
Divorced May 8, 2008
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ROFL...right age, wrong state 
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The reason I haven't agreed with Lexx is that he is such a CAKE-EATER..I think those are a different breed...
And to change, I think a WAYWARD needs to SUFFER...
But, of course, follow the plan as suggested by Steve...
My WH, the ultimate CAKE-EATER had to SUFFER and feel that he was REALLY going to LOSE ME..FOREVER...the point behind PLAN B...
He would have been a CAKE-EATER..FOREVER..and EVER..told me so..always wanted to keep me READY and WAITING..IF he EVER decided to STOP PLAYING OUT IN THE STREETS...
I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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Never mind - I read things wrong....sorry for the intrusion 
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Bugsy,
I would consult Steve if you are feeling wishy washy on this. On one hand, I agree with Lexxy, that Drac may need to begin FEELING something for you again, before being approached with an ultimatum, but on the other, more first hand experience, the cake-eater was alive and thriving in the Zombie. He did want home, the comforts and the parts of me that were easy-breezy. The overwhelming guilt/anger/entitlement-trio, when I would be sad or NEED something from him, was his guiding light and it lead us into another false recovery. There was no real commitment to change. There were plenty of WORDS ABOUT change, but no actions.
I dunno. It may just be really early in all this. It takes a LOT of willpower on both sides to make recovery work. It doesn't sound like Drac is even close to taking that leap of faith and endurance.
That is why I would follow Steve's advice at this juncture. How long did he advise you to Plan A?
Me-BS-38
Married 1997; son, 8yo
Divorced April 2009
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That is why I would follow Steve's advice at this juncture. How long did he advise you to Plan A? Excellent advice from my compadre here. Lexxy's words about marathon not sprint resonated with me. And you did kind of rush things, what with the showing of your cards and all. Not to blame or bash or anything. I think you should check in with Steve again and give him an update and see what he recommends. I don't believe that you are Done yet. Bugs
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Lexx:
Heres why, (unless Steve H has recommended it...) I do not recommend that Bugsy go to a true Plan A.
And I do not believe that she has given him an ultimatum.
Drac will cake-eat. Because its the type of guy that he is.
Bugsy gave him a "taste" of what he can have AGAIN.
That is the bugsy difference. It's AGAIN.
The M was good. Drac had some issues, and Bugsy has looked in the mirror of MB and realized the problems that she was bringing to a relationship. (Someone, yes, SOMEONE, is going to be the beneficiary of that.)
She let him in and dropped Plan B for a couple of days/weeks. Drac saw this. Drac responded to it. She has now plainly let him know that she may have gone to far and that DRAC has to come to HER to continue to possible reconciliation.
That could be construed as an ultimatum, but no it isn't it is establishing her boundary and why it was set in the first place.
The rest is up to Drac. And he is differnet than LilSis's H. Both went to Plan D, but LilSis's H didn't really move towards LilSis during her Plan A. Drac responded to it, but liked having BOTH. He will continue, if he can.
So, Bugs should go DARK again.
I always stated that she should have a copy of her Plan B letter handy to give to Drac if he ever asked to "hook-up" Or go faster then Bugs was comfortable with.
Reveal herself, and then see what he does.
He registers on Match dot com and has "visits" away that force DSS and DD to hang at relatives.
Add a little Whipped Cream to that cake.
Cuz he's got a big spoon.
LG
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Our suggestions are the same...just a different time line.
I totally agree that Bugs needs to close that door when he crosses her comfort-boundry.
BUT! I think he needed more time to see that it could be different/better with Bugs. I think she needed to deposit more units in the lovebank. I think he needed to remember how much he loved her. And to let all those thoughts along with the comparisons to HO to perculate in his brain.
He would have come to the conclusion that maybe this could work.
Then it wouldn't be so tough to pull him the rest of the way.
She hadn't really had the time or opportunity to convey some pretty important pieces....that he could be forgiven...that the family would REJOICE....that his kids would be happier.....that he would not always be the bad guy who screwed up....
He needs to get comfortable with those things. He's not -- YET, but he could be....
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One of my main concerns is what this was starting to do to YOU, Bugsy..
Like me, you are sooo in love with Drac still and like my Husband, Drac is such a CHARMER..almost a CASANOVA...
And it SEEMS like you were becoming almost ADDICTED to him yourself...waiting for his call, wondering about what he was doing...
And then with him REJECTING all of your WONDERFUL EFFORTS, I was AFRAID for you and the relationship...the posssible loss of love for him..which PLAN B protects you from...
I just so remembered the UTTER PAIN again of wanting it soooo much and finding that he just wasn't getting it...although my H, like yours, remained so ATTRACTED to me in many ways...
I went through periods like yours with him..when I wasn't posting on MBers..thinking that he would FINALLY get it...if I did the PLAN A type of stuff..
And once he GOT it, it really wasn't all that COMPLICATED to HIM..he didn't want to LOSE me...
The DARKNESS is what did it..although I FOUGHT doing it..that's why I'm such a FAN now...
I guess I keep saying the same stuff over and over again...
I just WORRY about you...
I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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Mimi
I was so pleased when Bugs followed in your footsteps to the letter - including selling the house and moving. That move was what woke your husband up.
Here's the difference. Drac didn't and hasn't and won't wake up. He is different than your Formerly wayward husband. Drac is not a renter or a buyer. He's a freeloader. Very very different. Women are disposable to him. He will give up what he loves before he will acknowledge the emptiness that he feels as a renter.
Your husband could not give up what he loves. Be grateful. But recognize. Drac is different than your hubby.
Cafe Plan B link http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2182650&page=1 The ? that made recovery possible: "Which lovebuster do I do the most that hurts the worst"? The statement that signaled my personal recovery and the turning point in our marriage recovery: "I don't need to be married that badly!" If you're interested in saving your relationship, you'll work on it when it's convenient. If you're committed, you'll accept no excuses.
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