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We are all capable of making major life screw-ups, and JustLearning helped me out a lot by getting me to concentrate on my WW's actions AFTER making such a major life screw-up, but to fully understand how she was recovering from her mistakes, I had to fully understand what she was recovering FROM. I so agree with this. It has helped me so much now that I know all the details and the whole story. Yes, the details are extremely painful, but my H's finally being willing to really talk to me about it and be open with all of it has made a huge difference in the way I see him. What he did was horrible, yet how he is now so willing to really take responsibility for it and wanting to figure out what got him to that point changes the whole dynamic between us. Before knowing the details this was impossible for me to see how we could R, now I have some hope. Good for you ... you have shown the strength necessary to work through the issues to create a BETTER future. I've always thought that if you don't have the strength to face a situation straight up, you likely don't have the strength to do the heavy lifting necessary to reach your ultimate goal. Congratulations on your progress!!!
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The stance that you are taking is basically a reflection on your own lack of confidence...IMHO.
Will you explain how you have come to conclude that I lack self confidence?
Knowledge does NOT take anything away...that fact she did it takes it away. Now that I know it was taken away...it is partly MY responsibility to take it back.
The fact that she did it makes showers with you less special for her (imo) now you have the knowledge that she did for him what was special for you? You know you, do you think that you will be able to shower with her again without thinking about her with him?
If we are consumed with highlighting our spouses falling short, we will miss the divine mysteries of marriage and the lessons that it has to teach us. As long as a couple is married they continue to display “however imperfectly” the ongoing commitment between Christ and his church. Thus, simply “sticking it out” becomes vitally important. Just sticking it out is victory in and of itself and creates a certain glory. Sacred Marriage
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IMO you should regret that knowledge. How are you better off by know that? Now, you are going to have a hard time having a shower with her.
I am just curious why would would want to have the positive things that you have shared together be taken away with knowledge? He is better off knowing if it helps him put the affair into PERSPECTIVE. It helps him recover by knowing a certain level of detail because the DETAIL helps him UNDERSTAND the dynamic of the affair. He needs that in order to recover. This is information about HIS LIFE that was wrongfully withheld from him. So correcting that wrong means giving him the information that he requests. Rebuilding TRUST means having no secrets with the OP to which the BS is not privy. That is how trust is rebuilt. introverts "stance" does not have anything to do with a "lack of confidence" but rather with a need to RECOVER. MoDaisy, I realize you know nothing about MB or adultery in general, so I would only refer you to these 2 articles to help you understand. You can't credibly give advice to others when you are not educated yourself. Please take the time to educate yourself on the material so you can give helpful advice. Joseph's Letteranother key article: Requirements for Recovery Dr. Harley; "The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy.
This information is important for two reasons: (1) it creates accountability and transparency, making it essentially impossible for the unfaithful spouse to continue the affair or begin a new one unnoticed, and (2) it creates trust for the betrayed spouse, providing evidence that the affair is over and a new one is unlikely to take its place. The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that
will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted." NOT having all the facts of the affair will prevent recovery and can even cause psychological problems.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I understand your opinion - I have read this letter and the additional information that you have posted -
Why are you afraid of opinions that differ from Dr. H's?
If we are consumed with highlighting our spouses falling short, we will miss the divine mysteries of marriage and the lessons that it has to teach us. As long as a couple is married they continue to display “however imperfectly” the ongoing commitment between Christ and his church. Thus, simply “sticking it out” becomes vitally important. Just sticking it out is victory in and of itself and creates a certain glory. Sacred Marriage
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I understand your opinion - I have read this letter and the additional information that you have posted -
Why are you afraid of opinions that differ from Dr. H's? Are you afraid of being contradicted? Surely you don't have a problem with that. You seem comfortable contradicting a clinical psychologist with 35 years experience saving marriages, so I can't imagine you would have a problem with the reverse. Do you? I think a more relevant question would be WHY are you giving "advice" about a subject which you know absolutely nothing. You have no credentials, no education, no experience, no track record at saving marriages, nothing.. Yet you contradict someone who has credentials and a long track record of successfully saving marriages. Does that make any sense to you? What would you say if I went over to the general dentistry forum and gave out medical advice even though I have no training and no experience in dentistry? Would that seem rational to you? Do you think it would be helpful to the posters there?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I don't want a debate on who's right and who's wrong...to each their own.
All I can say is that I ask for details because I want to know exactly what my W has done. I don't live my life by sweeping things under the rug...it doesn't work for me. If it works for you...fine.
I must ask you though...
If you don't ask details, and you still have questions...just how long do you think you are going to have to live your life without those questions being answered? If you need to know...you need to ask, or you are doing yourself a diservice.
Whether the question is "what did you eat for dinner with OP?" or "did you do it doggy style?"...if you have a need to know...you need to ask. Otherwise, you might as well just book a bed for yourself in the mental health unit of your local hospital.
JMHO
"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth"
Henry David Thoreau
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Introvert,
Agreed for detail people everything must be told.
Details provide a cheap lie detector too, the more details given and noted, the more likely they will contradict themselves later if they are still being dishonest.
For the medically minded certain activites expose the wayward to different health threats. For example there is some recent evidence that oral and anal HPV leads to increased rates of cancer in those places, apparently its not just a cause of cervical cancer.
NJ
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ldawk,
Just as an example for you, concerning details.
Last night I asked some more questions about my WW's affair. I was trying to see if there was any sort of consistency with her relationship with OM as compaired to ours. One thing that we enjoyed from the start of our relationship was showering/bathing together. Last night I found out that she did indeed jump into the shower with him (he was showering after sex...she decided to surprise him by joining him in the shower). Does this hurt?....f#ck ya. Did it make me cry?....f#ck ya. Did I have to sleep on the couch, because I didn't want to share a bed with my wife?....f@ck ya.
Do I regret asking the question?....f#ck no. IMO you should regret that knowledge. How are you better off by know that? Now, you are going to have a hard time having a shower with her. I am just curious why would would want to have the positive things that you have shared together be taken away with knowledge? I'd like to reply to this. Althought you are right, positive thoughts are taken away with the negative sometimes. But knowing all the details can help make the decision to stay or go for one. My hubby brought his OW out to our pool to "play" while I was out of town. I told him I'll never want to swim in it again nor will I want sex out there. That's his fault, not mine. I told him I never want to be brought to ANY place he took her, ever. Even if it was my favorite restuarant. If I decide the visions are too horrible then recovery may not happen. That's a possibility but I should be allowed to know the truth. My H should not be having sex with me somewhere that he had sex with HER too. Those visions will be in HIS head while he is having sex with me in the same spot and that's WRONG.
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betrayedmom,
Some people here disagree with me, but I think that...people are defined by their actions. So, with that outlook, it is essential to know what exactly their actions were/are, in order to make an educated decision on whether to stay or go.
Why anyone would want to be uneducated about their spouse is something I will never understand.
I agree wholeheartedly with you.
"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth"
Henry David Thoreau
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betrayedmom,
Some people here disagree with me, but I think that...people are defined by their actions. So, with that outlook, it is essential to know what exactly their actions were/are, in order to make an educated decision on whether to stay or go.
Why anyone would want to be uneducated about their spouse is something I will never understand.
I agree wholeheartedly with you. You are exactly right. And it doesn't mean one is "insecure" for wanting to know the facts ABOUT THEIR OWN LIFE, only that they have a NEED TO UNDERSTAND their spouse and the dynamics of the affair. It is impossible to build trust when a WS has SECRETS with the OP to which the spouse is not privy. That will prevent recovery, because every detail is information about the BS' LIFE to which he has a right. The idea that an OP is privy to SECRETS and the BS is kept in ignorance, is galling and disrespectful.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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betrayedmom,
Some people here disagree with me, but I think that...people are defined by their actions. So, with that outlook, it is essential to know what exactly their actions were/are, in order to make an educated decision on whether to stay or go. This is kind of where I start having a repeating argument in my head. My H cheated, lied, deceived, etc so those actions tell me one thing. Since d-day, H has been remorseful and contrite so those actions tell me something else. If his action's during the affair define him, do I ignore all other action pre-A and the present ones?  H having an A in the first place was already a big FU to me, but some details just piss me off royally and I struggle with them because of the personal nature they have. I was already in disbelief that my H could even step out on me but that he would do THAT (fill in the blank)...    :twobyfour:  Maybe it sounds bad but when I read some stories here I can look at my own and think my details aren't so bad. Other times I think mine are worse and I'm stupid for staying. Other times I'm just pissed and sad that any BS has to deal with this crap at all.
BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011
Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.
We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
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Since d-day, H has been remorseful and contrite so those actions tell me something else. If his action's during the affair define him, do I ignore all other action pre-A and the present ones? His actions during the affair DEFINE HIM. His actions AFTER the affair DEFINE HIM. Character is defined, not by being perfect, but in how we HANDLE our shortcomings. A person who redeems himself and make amends for his wrong doing is a big person indeed.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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The affair is not the sum of who they are...but it is a big part of the equation. How much of the equation is the question.
If some BS's are happy (loosely speaking, of course) just knowing the sum, that's their decision. I need to know the whole equation....but that's just me.
"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth"
Henry David Thoreau
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Since d-day, H has been remorseful and contrite so those actions tell me something else. If his action's during the affair define him, do I ignore all other action pre-A and the present ones? His actions during the affair DEFINE HIM. His actions AFTER the affair DEFINE HIM. Character is defined, not by being perfect, but in how we HANDLE our shortcomings. A person who redeems himself and make amends for his wrong doing is a big person indeed. I agree with what you are saying but at the same time A actions and post-A actions seem to be in direct conflict and then I drive myself crazy with which one matters most. I know no one is perfect and we all make mistakes but I even struggle has affair ending because I found out versus him ending it on his own. I dunno. Some days I feel like it's just semantics because either way I look at what he did...it sucks and he was a jerkn. I know he's trying to redeem himself and I give him credit for that but there are so many times the pain cuts so deep from the things he has done. Fog or not, he was an ahole to me and didn't care. That is hard to live with. 
BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011
Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.
We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
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I agree with what you are saying but at the same time A actions and post-A actions seem to be in direct conflict and then I drive myself crazy with which one matters most. BR, I don't really understand what this means, but I suspect you are making this more complicated than need be. He did a terrible thing and has to REDEEM HIMSELF. He has to EARN TRUST. Earning trust takes a long time of demonstrated trustworthy behavior. If you feel he is untrustworthy, there is a reason for that. It is because he has not proven himself yet. That is not a contradiction, but how trust is EARNED.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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The affair is not the sum of who they are...but it is a big part of the equation. How much of the equation is the question.
If some BS's are happy (loosely speaking, of course) just knowing the sum, that's their decision. I need to know the whole equation....but that's just me. I agree. The lines get blurred for me at times. If I heard my best girlfriend telling me her H did the things that mine did, I would be thinking what a fricking pathetic loser. It's only been 6 months since d-day so maybe this is just what I have to deal with until the images have more time to fade.
BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011
Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.
We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
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The affair is not the sum of who they are...but it is a big part of the equation. How much of the equation is the question.
If some BS's are happy (loosely speaking, of course) just knowing the sum, that's their decision. I need to know the whole equation....but that's just me. I agree. The lines get blurred for me at times. If I heard my best girlfriend telling me her H did the things that mine did, I would be thinking what a fricking pathetic loser. It's only been 6 months since d-day so maybe this is just what I have to deal with until the images have more time to fade. That's because he IS a pathetic loser...just like my WW was...MelodyLane's WH was...and your WH was(?)...is(?). The sum of who my W is, isn't a pathetic loser...but part of her equation is a pathetic loser. And, I'll speak for Melodylane and say that she probably feels the same way (forgive me if I'm talking out of place MelodyLane) about her H. I ask details to ensure I know just how much of a pathetic loser my W was...because that add's to her sum total...but it isn't the entire total.
"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth"
Henry David Thoreau
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My H will be the first to tell you he was a pathetic loser. But he is NOT that today. He is a GOOD MAN who worked hard to redeem himself and made full amends for what he did. He has been trustworthy for 8 years now. And he is cute, too! 
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I agree with what you are saying but at the same time A actions and post-A actions seem to be in direct conflict and then I drive myself crazy with which one matters most. BR, I don't really understand what this means, but I suspect you are making this more complicated than need be. He did a terrible thing and has to REDEEM HIMSELF. He has to EARN TRUST. Earning trust takes a long time of demonstrated trustworthy behavior. If you feel he is untrustworthy, there is a reason for that. It is because he has not proven himself yet. That is not a contradiction, but how trust is EARNED. H is not redeemed in my eyes yet but he is trying. What I mean is his A actions of course are terrible. If I hadn't found out some of the details of the A I wouldn't know just how bad it was. It still would have been terrible had I not found out about the details but now I'm disgusted by one or two specific details more so than others. Don't get me wrong, I wanted to know all. Pre-A I would think those specific details would have been the straw that broke the camels back and I'd be gone. But here I am...still here. Am I compromising myself and re-drawing my line in the sand? Maybe I am making this more complicated than needed. My brain is on overload looking at the events and detail from too many angles I guess.
BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011
Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.
We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
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I agree with what you are saying but at the same time A actions and post-A actions seem to be in direct conflict and then I drive myself crazy with which one matters most. BR, I don't really understand what this means, but I suspect you are making this more complicated than need be. He did a terrible thing and has to REDEEM HIMSELF. He has to EARN TRUST. Earning trust takes a long time of demonstrated trustworthy behavior. If you feel he is untrustworthy, there is a reason for that. It is because he has not proven himself yet. That is not a contradiction, but how trust is EARNED. H is not redeemed in my eyes yet but he is trying. What I mean is his A actions of course are terrible. If I hadn't found out some of the details of the A I wouldn't know just how bad it was. It still would have been terrible had I not found out about the details but now I'm disgusted by one or two specific details more so than others. Don't get me wrong, I wanted to know all. Pre-A I would think those specific details would have been the straw that broke the camels back and I'd be gone. But here I am...still here. Am I compromising myself and re-drawing my line in the sand? Maybe I am making this more complicated than needed. My brain is on overload looking at the events and detail from too many angles I guess. Ahhh...the old "now I have to re-work MY values and morals" dilemma. I went through this question at first, but as you move further on in recovery, you start to realize that you never had to chage your views on your values......your H has to change his....because he didn't have any.
"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth"
Henry David Thoreau
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