I would like some feedback on whether it's good for me to know all the details of my WH's PA. I have so many questions in my mind. I have been lied to for almost 3 yrs and now that I know the truth, I have so many questions about past events. I feel like I want to know everything, but I also know that it could give me even more horrible pictures in my head than I already have. Sometimes I think it may just be morbid curiosity and at other times I think it may bring clarity and understanding. Thanks for the input.

ldawk,

I'm a new person, so you can weigh my advice appropriately. I have had a long time to think about this because if the way I handled the A, but for me I need every detail.I am sure it will hurt, and it may mean that we can not stay married, but I know I can't stay unless I know.

It is a decision that only a BS can make.

What questions that are answered can not be unasked.

If you are a person that has to know everything then you will never reest until you do. Not knowing what happened in 1981 still leaves me wondering and guessing.

It has been said that an advantage of asking is that one will no longer dwell on what happened during the affair. Freeing them to finally move forward.

What a WS will hear will hurt, but time will help it to fade. This knowledge will not be forgotten, but fade enough to eventually not trigger on it when you recall it.

If you need it insist on being told. If you have doubts proceed slowly with your questions.

lhawk, you will have to know enough so that you have the RIGHT picture in your head of the affair. The level of detail will change from person to person. I needed GREAT DETAIL, no matter how hurtful, others need much less. That question can only be answered BY YOU by asking: WHAT DO I NEED TO RECOVER?

Another important factor is his willingness to answer all of your questions. That is even more important than the details.

[i][b]Requirements for Recovery[/b][/i]

The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.

I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail.

The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy.

This information is important for two reasons: (1) it creates accountability and transparency, making it essentially impossible for the unfaithful spouse to continue the affair or begin a new one unnoticed, and (2) it creates trust for the betrayed spouse, providing evidence that the affair is over and a new one is unlikely to take its place. The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that
will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted.

An analysis of the betrayed spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them.

After the first step is completed, the second step is to create a romantic relationship between you and your husband using my 10 Basic Concepts http://marriagebuilders.com/ca/to.cgi?l=qa080103bc
as your guide. While your relationship may be improving, it won't lead to a romantic relationship because you are not being transparent toward each other. Unspoken issues in a marital relationship lead to a superficiality that ruins romance.

Your nightmares are only the tip of the iceberg. They are but a small reflection of the suffering you experienced when you discovered your husband's affair, and the fear you have that the suffering will be repeated. You have no assurance that the affair is over because you don't even know who the other woman is. You are being asked to trust your husband, who has already proven to be untrustworthy. For all you know, he could be working with her, or you could be going to the same church, or she could be
your neighbor. And since he won't discuss the details of how the affair took place, you have no assurance that another affair will not take its place.

Infidelity is not something that can be swept under the rug. While those who have affairs want to forget about it and move on, those who are betrayed must take very specific steps before they can fully recover. In your case, those steps have not been taken, and as a result, your fear persists. I will send you a complimentary copy of my book, "Surviving an Affair," if you send me your address. It will describe these two steps to you and provide you with a roadmap toward full recovery. But the path will require full disclosure of all details.

Best wishes,

Willard F. Harley, Jr.

Thank you so much to you and everyone else who posted a response to this. I really appreciate your advice.

ldawk7,

I forgot to say how sorry I am that you are in this situation. My heart goes out to you. I know what it is like to have 5 children and be cast aside for someone else.

For me, the thoughts in my head were so bad I couldn't picture it getting worse. It hurt to hear the details. Some I still stuggle with; not so much the sexual part as much as things like gestures and gifts. I'm very glad my husband told me the details I wanted to know. OW contacted me later and tried driving a further wedge between me and H by cluing me in on certain details. I already knew so it took 99% of the sting out of her comments. My husband looked pathetic, but she had him beat by a mile and in a weird way that knowledge made me feel somewhat better.

Idawk7

I agree with Mel, you should ask about those things that you will need to heal. I would think twice (now in hindsight) about asking specific details regarding their sex. I asked my FWW about their sexcapades, and she answered. What I heard shocked me literally to the point of vomiting. I've always been rather mainstream / conventional when it comes to sex, while FWW has her wild side. Before we married way back when, FWW had a number of wild boyfriends with whom she was very active sexually. However, once she was ready to settle down, she married me. I'm the good boy type that a girl would want to marry, not the bad boy type to have 'fun' with.

However, in her A, FWW returned to the bad boy type, in spades. OM is a paroled felon and a real latino casanova. Their sessions would last up to 5 hours continuous through the night, involving every position and every type of sex in the book. this went on about twice a week for almost 3 months. FWW said each of them admitted it was the best sex either have ever had.

Needless to say, that didn't do much for my self-esteem at the time. It also created horror movies in my head. For months afterwards, anytime I saw FWW nude, all I could picture is what they had done with each other.

So, as the saying goes, be careful what you wish for.

I will respectfully disagree with this premise. What a BS needs is the full and complete story to make a fully informed decision about their future. What you advocate in your post, in hindsight, is simply "sweeping it under the rug" because it was TOO painful for you to hear.

IMHO, you are blaming the knowledge, rather than the decision you made with that knowledge.

Hi Idawk7,

I struggle with the same issue so I hope you post will help me. I keep finding out more details piece by piece. I'm sure I still don't know it all. My H says there's a lot and it's horrible and I wouldn't want to know. This is not the first affair and I know there are things from the last 2 he's kept from me as well. I doubt he will ever tell all even if I ask. I think he will lie to keep me from being pushed away from him. He's into really extreme sexual behaviors and I'm sure it would be painful for me to know about all of it. However I can't sleep because I think about what's he's done and then I toss and turn and wonder about what I don't know. It's agony.

My opinion on this is that if there is something you are contemplating on asking...you need to ask.

When I was asking questions...I'd get "I don't remember" in return. By KMS doing this, the mind movies I had in my head were all over the place. Until I actually got some answers (i.e. where?...how?...how often?..positions?...oral?...orgasms?, etc...), it was natural for me to just assume the worst. If no one tells you any different than how could you not assume the worst?

Anyway, if you are contemplating whether or not to even ask the question, stop contemplating.......you need an answer. Unless you want mind movie re-runs for a long time.

Thank you. I appreciate your kindness. I'd like to know your story and where you're at in this whole process. Thanks again for your thoughts.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2083811#Post2083811

Here is a link to my story.

Right now it's just one day at a time.

As far as knowing the "whole truth" goes...I'm not 100% certain I will ever know the whole truth (my WW lied even after OM told me the whole truth). Because of that the trust may never come back. I hope this doesn't happen to you.

I've learned that if I never trust her again...I will never know if I have the "whole truth"...trust and the truth go hand in hand.

Thanks galoot. I have to admit that what I already do know makes me want to vomit, yet it drives me nuts to think that he has private memories all his own. I think that part of the being accountable is that he has to admit to ALL of it. On the other hand, who's to say that what he would tell me is the truth. It almost seems like a no win situation. I'm either left to wonder and create my own pictures, or get the pictures from him. Either way, this whole thing sucks really bad. Have the pictures in your head faded at all or is it still to fresh. Also, you say you've seen her nude.....does that mean you've been able to be intimate with her. If so, how do you deal with the pictures in your head then? If I'm being too personal I'm really sorry and please feel free not to respond. It is something that totally scares and disgusts me though. The thought of being physical with him seems so impossible. It seems I would just be wondering if he was thinking about her and what it was like with her.....ugh!! It makes my skin crawl. I know that it is very fresh to me right now though so I do have hope that as we hopefully progress, those feelings will fade.

The private memories is a HUGE concern for me as well.

It's not so much that WW has those memories...but OM has them. He knows personal and private things about my W that I don't.

It really hurts to think about that aspect.

Your admission that these private memories are an issue with you means only one thing.......you need the deatails...just like I did.

Hi betrayedmom,

I do hope it helps you too......maybe we'll learn together I have asked my H so many questions....practically drilled him. I just got confirmation on 8/10, so since then I have had so many questions. At first he would get so mad if I questioned him. He felt like, "Well I admitted it so now let's just move on" That made me even more hurt and angry. When I first found out I told him that the one thing I definitely needed was for him to end it in front of me. He was against that at first, but agreed the next day and he followed through. So when I had questions after that he actually accused ME of lying because I had said that I only needed one thing to move forward. Now I just wanted to keep bringing up the past by insisting on talking about it. The nerve of him!! He was doing nothing to work on things...just wanted to move forward though. Thankfully, since then he has changed his thinking a bit and has answered questions. But it just seems that it leads to more questions. What I hear is very hurtful and that's why he says it's not a good idea and will just set me back further. But I feel like I need to know because I just need the truth......from him. It is hard to swallow the truth, but I think it's harder not knowing. It's kind of torture either way, but I desperately just want him to be telling the truth. Sometimes I will already know the truth without letting on and then I'll question him about it just to see if he'll tell the truth. I think it's the most destructive part of the whole betrayal.......being lied to for so long and then left to wonder if he will ever be trustworthy.

BUT...he is the last person who is qualified to decide what is your best interest. What will set you back more than anything is witholding THE DETAILS ABOUT YOUR OWN LIFE. The affair is information about your own life to which you are ENTITLED.

Has anyone shown you Josephs letter yet? Sorry if you have already seen it:

Joseph's Letter

It is torture either way...you're right. But, if you get the details, the torture you will have to endure is the making of your WH, and it should get better (for the lack of a better word). If you don't, you will keep on getting tortured...not only that, but it will be partly your WH torturing you, and at the same time a self inflicted torture.

I know I am new, and I am in alot of pain right now. But I think knowing the details is better. Especially about the sex, the betrayal aspect made me physically ill. I had assumed the sex would be wild and fantastic but the letters, which she kept, don't show that.

Also I have to say, we all have basically the same equipment, so if your spouse wants something why not do it. This may be a man perspective, since I'm a man.

I believe you misconstrue. I was not "sweeping it under the rug." There were things I wanted to know and asked about which were necessary for healing and for moving on, such as to what she felt like when she fell in love, to what extent she felt guilt or shame during the A, the frequency and location of their rendevous, and, especially, how did it end, how she felt about him during and after it ended, what was said.

However, knowing the grimy little details of what they did in bed, or on the floor, as the case may be, didn't help me. Knowing how he performed anal sex on her, or how he taught her to give better BJ's didn't help me. Those kind of things were TOO PAINFUL to hear, and they didn't help me, either in deciding what to do with our relationship, or how to heal. In fact, they hindered our healing process. Some things are better left a mystery.

How did these details come about? Did you ask, then regret asking?

First, I'm not arguing with you ... different people see things differently, and I think its usually best to explore all sides of an issue.

For me, I would have to know these details to make a fully informed decision about whether to attempt R.

I would venture a guess that because these things were "TOO PAINFUL" to hear about, might be because you had never seen this side of your WW. Therefore, its important to know that she has this side to her, and that she may have been willing to engage in behavior with OM that she had denied you, as her H.

I truly believe that as BH's, we do ourselves a grave disservice when we make a life affecting decision without ALL of the details, no matter how painful they may be. It's very easy to commit to R too soon in our eagerness to stop the A and get our WW's back and important details get overlooked.

We are all capable of making major life screw-ups, and JustLearning helped me out a lot by getting me to concentrate on my WW's actions AFTER making such a major life screw-up, but to fully understand how she was recovering from her mistakes, I had to fully understand what she was recovering FROM.

I firmly believe that D is the proper response to an A, and it takes an exceptional WW to justify the hardships of R for the BH, and its imperative for the BH to know the extent of the betrayal before he can begin to judge whether his WW qualifies as the exception to that rule.

Well said. This is exactly how I feel too.

After disovering the A...D is basically the first and foremost option, IMO. Not until after everything is out and on the table can any WS make an informed decision on whether to R or not.

Ignorance is NOT bliss....not in this situation.

Wow, sounds just like me here. H wanted to just move on and not talk about anything. He keeps saying lets move forward but all those metal images keep flooding my mind. He will say he told me everything and then something will come out just on accident that he "forgot" to tell me. Then there are the heaps of lies he told me over and over during the affair and even after I found out,while he swore it was over but he was still calling her and meeting her. I don't know what's truth anymore. He's destroyed my trust. He lied about bringing her to our house. That makes me ill. I told him I don't know if I can live here anymore and he tried to act like it was a stupid excuse for moving. Like it was no big deal. I hate how he dismisses my pain.
I know what you mean about finding the truth and then questioning too. That's my plan now. I found out one secret already and have been trying to get him to admit to it but he hasn't. I can't say anything yet though because it will reveal my sources so it's killing me to bite my tongue for now.
I'm so drained from all the spying, the lack of sleep, the crying. I just feel lost.
I asked a few more questions last night and then just burst into tears. I just said "how could you?" over and over. I said "Was I that awful of a wife that you had to do this to me?" It's all so painful and fresh right now even though it's been over a month. I don't know how I'm ever gonna heal. I hope it fades with time eventually. HE keeps saying he wants to comfort me and be there for me when I'm in pain. The problem is HEs the one who hurt me. I feel like the battered wife who was just hit by her husband and then he holds her and says "OH honey, I'm so sorry, let me make you feel better."

betrayedmom,

Someone here (can't remember who) said that talking about these issues with your WS is like "being raped, then going to your rapist for counselling"....truer words have never been spoken...except maybe by that Jesus guy.

I have seriously considered D. I thinl the decision would be much easier if we did not have 2 children together. It seems to be the biggest thing keeping me here and trying. My childen would be devastated by a divorce and as a mother I feel obligated to keep them from that pain. It's hard enough for me to deal with all this, I can't have my children grieving as well.
If there is any chance my WH can R and become a better man for his family I think that would be the overall best choice. I don't know if I will ever be happy in that and I don't know if I will ever fall back in love with him. He has destroyed so much. Fixing the furture doesn't erase the past but if there is a true change then maybe the memories won't be in my face all the time.
I can only hope.

It's not.

I think it would be for me. I'm not saying it wouldn't be painful but it would only be my pain. I can't look my children in the eyes and say "We are getting a divorce." "Daddy hurt mommy and she can't be with him any more." "We are moving to a new home and a new school and daddy won't be around for the holidays anymore" etc etc That all just seems worse right now.

I got this off Dr Harley's web site on Coping with an Affair:


One of the reasons I'm not so keen on dredging up the past as a part of therapy is that it brings up memories that carry resentment along with them. If I'm not careful, a single counseling session can open up such a can of worms that the presenting problem gets lost in a flood of new and painful memories. If the goal of therapy is to "resolve" every past issue, that seems to me to be a good way to keep people coming for therapy for the rest of their lives. That's because it's an insurmountable goal. We simply cannot resolve everything that's ever bothered us.

Instead, I tend to focus my attention on the present and the future, because they are what we can all do something about. The past is over and done with. Why waste our effort on the past when the future is upon us. Granted, it's useful to learn lessons from the past, but if we dwell on the past, we take our eyes off the future which can lead to disaster.

I personally believe that therapy should focus most attention, not on the past, but on ways to make the future sensational. And when a spouse comes to me with unresolved feelings of resentment about something their spouse did in the past, I tend to put it on hold and focus on issues that prevent mistakes of the past from recurring. I ask them to trust my judgment, and see what happens to the resentment when the marriage has a chance to become fulfilling. In almost every case, resentment fades, as I predicted. While the painful memories are not entirely forgotten, the most recent marital experiences which are fulfilling and enjoyable, dominate a person's thinking, and resentment becomes weak and infrequent.


It seems he is saying not to go over every little detail of the affair. Adding more horrible pictures could be disasterous.

He also says looking at the past helps us fix the furture. I guess he means by looking at past mistakes and learning from them. One past mistake I look at on my part was being so trusting. Overlooking things he was doing. Now I have no trust and I feel I need to trust in order to move forward. Seems impossible. I fear if I do trust him he will do it again.

I respect Dr.H's opinion, but I think he's missing the point on this subject.

Yes, it's great to work on the present and the future. But, if you need to fix your marriage how do you do it if you don't know how broken it was? Without knowing details of the affair, and how far the mistake actually went, what exactly are you trying to fix?

You can't fix a flat tire unless you can find the screw that made it flat.

First of all I would like to state that this is a decision that the BS gets to decide. The BS should carefully consider how much they want/need to know minus being influenced by the WS, OP, MC's, IC's, or any others regarding how much info they get to ask for.

There needs to be caution so that the BS doesn't ask for more info than they can currently handle, but in the long run there's no point in staying in a marriage that harbors secrets.

Also, even if the BS doesn't want to know more details, they may eventually end up learning more anyway, experiencing multiple D-days interfering with recovery.

I know a LOT about my WXH's goings on that he didn't want me to know. I found out more by seeking the info, asking others, others volunteering the info without me asking, and figuring things out in hindsight. He didn't give me much info when I asked. I would not have demanded to know a whole lot more if he had been willing to give up OW to work on saving our marriage. I was willign to put in behind us. I don't really feel like I need to know a whole lot more now. It is increasingly behind me.

When I discovered that my husband had a serial adultery problem I didn't really need to know more than that. I had found out about a ONS he'd had on a business trip (bimbette sent him a letter), handed him a pencil and pad of paper when he came home from work, and told him to write on ther the name of the OW. He answered that he woudln't know where to start! I got STD tested
and gave him a choice between MC or divorce. I never made him write down all the women's names because they really didn't matter to me at that point. He had a problem. The details didn't matter to me. (Also, I naively assumed that just because those OW were ONS's, lived in other states, and this was pre-internet, that they weren't that much a threat to our marriage, and he agreed to no more business trips, that our marriage would make it.)

But the latest OW was a co-worker, not someone he met out of town, and definitely not just a ONS. It was also what is sometimes called an 'exit affair' and a 'romantic affair. He fell 'in love' with her. AND I DID ask questions.

But his attitude was that I didn't have a right to ask, that it was something private between he and she that was none of my business. That definitely would have not worked in the long run, even if I didn't ask him for any more info.

IMHO it's not so much how much info is given as who is controlling the access to the info.

Of course how the BS goes about asking for the info may affect the process... but the bottom line is that the BS does have a right to ask for any info they need/want to find out. I think the suggestion I read in another thread (from ManInMotion) of writing down the questions is a good idea. That could help if the WS feels 'attacked' by the BS's questioning style or timing
(or help the BS eliminate that as an excuse...)

The BS just needs to make sure to have lots of support lined up to deal with whatever they're told.

The advice listed by BWS is good in my opinion. You have to decide what you "really" need to know vs. what you think you "want" to know.

I would recommend that you not ask for details in the heat of a conversation. Take the time to think through what you want to know.

Like BWS mentioned, if you have details they might inhabit your future actions. If you get to a point of wanting to meet all of his sexual needs then it might make it that much harder if you have to deal with comparison issues.

Here is a quote from one of your other posts - "How do I meet this need of his when I have pictures of all the things he's been doing swirling in my head?"

How many more pictures do you want? What will those pictures do for you?

I wish you the best -
_________________________

MoDaisy,

You seem to be implying that she won't get those pictures if she doesn't get the details.

Well, she doesn't have the details and still has the pictures. It seems like she is doing exactly what you are recommending already, but she still gets pictures. It's not helping her and she needs to try something else...not stay status quo...IMHO.

I am not saying that she will or will not have mental pictures of what "might" have happened if she does not explore details.

I am saying having specific details my alter her judgement in the future.

For instance, lets say she finds out her H did something specifically for the OW that he has never done for her. It is possible that she will "watch" for him to do that for her as a sign that his passion for her is back. That might lead to future trouble for them.

I think that she should ask as many questions and get as much detail as she wants - I think that she should just be intentional about what she asks and that she should consider why she wants to know that. If his answer is going to help her heal then she should ask it. But if she is just asking questions because she is dealing with the pain and does not know why she wants to know then she should slow down a little.

What can she do differently?

Make a list of questions that you want answers to. Think about that list for a few days and reconsider asking it. Post that list here and ask us what we think of the questions that you have. After you spent time thinking through that list - ask away. Repeat the process as long as you need to.

Well that's why he oes on to say the past is to be used for reviewing the mistakes and what led up to the affair etc. EN's not met by each other etc.
I haven't asked for every detail of every sexual moment. I don't know if I can handle it, and if I had that image in my mind would it be worse than the things my mind creates. My H was into some pretty sick stuff. He says he only slept with her and used protection. Do I trust that? I don't think I will get the truth out of him if I ask. I think there are things he will not admit to me. I don't know what version of the story he will give me if I do ask. I will probably truely never kow it all. I may just have to accept that. Digging around all the time is killing me.

As far as fixing past mistakes and learning from the actions in the affair though, my biggest regret is being so trusting and naive. I should have been more assertive and forced boundaries on him. I feel like I could have stopped this from starting. The fact that it went on for months without me seeing it kills me. Maybe I just didn't want to see it? I know there were signs but I just couldn't believe he would do this to me.

Funny you mention this. I accidently ran across my H bank records while paying a bill. Never thought to look there. I found some stuff that let me to ask more questions and turns out he brought her to our house! He ays they didn't hav sex in our house or bed but they got "sexual" at the pool. I was mortified. He has defiled my home now. I told him I may never swim in that pool again and may even want to sell our home. He thought this was an over reaction. I brought it up in counseling. The therapist said he has giving me a good reason to hate the house now. I changed the story for him and said"What if I was raped here and said I couldn't live here any longer because it hurt too much?" He said it wasn't a good comparision. The therapist said it was. I don't know if I feel like I was raped. Maybe abused.
I feel more like I'm in mourning. I'm mouring my marriage and my H. It's like he died and my life is over. I don't know if him changing will fix that feeling. I don't know if he can change.
He says he wants to. We are going to counseling. He said he will go to a recovery group and be open with me. WHy dont' I feel better? I still feel lied to for some reason.

Don't let him try and make you feel like selling the house is an over-reaction...it isn't.

My WW brought OM to our house to pack up her belongings (the belongings she thought she was "entitled" to anyway)...the day after DDay. Her clothes were easy for them to pack because they were all on the front step, but she brought him inside to pack up furniture and other items...(although they were nice enough to leave 1 kitchen chair and a table for me...talk about pouring salt in my wounds).

Anyway, back to the point I was getting at...I pretty much forced WW to sign the paperwork to sell our house. Even the thought of that fat slob in my house was enough to make me want to burn it to the ground. It was on the market for a couple months, while she still spoke with, and slept ot OM's house (once...but nothing happened :RollieEyes:)....then she put me through DDay#2. I then wanted to drastically drop the price of the house to get the h3ll out of it, but she initially refused to sign the paperwork to drop the price. Talk about a selfish [censored]...screws another guy, brings him into our house, then wants to call the shots and dictate when I can move on with my life. She finally caved, then we sold. I was moving on with or without her...she asked me if she could come with me so we can try to recovery. We have since moved to another town.

My point being...don't let your selfish husband dictate your situation. Take control of it...he will soon follow. If you need to move to help get some closure...don't ask him...demand it. If he wants to recovery and is sincere about it, tell him that a) you are either selling the house, or b) divorcing his sorry [censored].

I mentioned on another post how it feels like I'm grieving my marriage and my husband. It's like he died and I'm grieving. The difference is there is a hope that he could come back, but I have so much doubt and pain clouding that hope right now.
The other difference is when you are grieving a true death, poeple know and are there to comfort you. I am quite alone in this. I have told a few friends and my sister in law who went through the same ordeal with her H years ago. I can't tell my family (they don't even live in the same state anyways)and I don't wish to advertise this kind of news so I have to put a smile on every day and act like all is normal for most of the world. That is so hard. No one know about my secret pain. No one knows I'm not just being lazy, I'm depressed.

Why can't you tell your family?

Maybe you're depressed because you are alone. Wouldn't some more support help?

Oh and I mean to add, that it's another reason for not moving right now. Obviously it would open up our marriage to everyone. We'd have to forclose on our house right now. I don't think we could sell in this market. I suppose I could make up some lie on why we are selling but just creates a whole mess with the kid and school etc. I dunno. Moving to another state would be wonderful. Getting away from "her" and knowing she is far far away would make me feel better for starters. It's not that I care if all his friends know what he did, I just don't want to lose respect for staying. I feel I'm doing right by my kids but some people don't see it that way. Some days I don't respect myself even. I feel like total crap and want to crawl into a hole.
I did show some baIIs to my H and I think he knows I'm close to leaving him. He's trying more to change and take the right steps towards recovery. I hope it's for real.

You think? Maybe you need to make it more clear.

I came from a family of total dysfunction. It wouldn't doo much good to tell. Actually might be worse.

I have thought of telling only my sister. She has been through a bad marriage but she divorced. My family adores my H if I try to make it work and they "know" I don't think things will ever be the same. They may never accept him again. Then I have to deal with that.

No...then HE has to deal with that...not you.

I had pretty much a "Partridge Family" thing going on (until WW decided to screw it all up)...that ain't on me...it's on her.

It seems the more I hear at this point the worse I feel. I took in a lot at the beginning and was dealing with it. I asked for information then and gave me some but hid other stuff. Then I kept finding out more later. Each time I started to feel better I'd find out something else! My hubby seems to be a ses addict or something. He was very much into BDSM and liked a lot of sick stuff. It's one thin to look at porn, it's another thing to act on it. Knowing some of the stuff he did makes me sick. Really sick. I don't know that I can handle it all.

betrayed, you can't be worried about what other people think when you are trying to salvage your marriage. If people are going to thumb their noses at you, [censored] them. We have all probably felt embarrassed, stupid and ashamed for even considering giving our WS another chance. I wasn't going to hide my H's affair from our family no matter what. He has to own it and I wasn't going to make up anything to cover for him. My dad's first reaction was for me to pack up my stuff and kids and come home. When he saw that I was try to recover the M, he told my mom that he thought it was mighty big of me to give H another chance. You might be surprised how supportive people can be. If your family never feel the same towards your H again, that's his problem. However, I also will not tolerate my family or friends openly treating my H like dirt either.

As for knowing the details, I do think living in that house may hinder your recovery and you are not overreacting. Maybe in 6 months you'll have to look at how you feel living there. Hang in there.

"I don't know that I can handle it all."

You can handle this. Do you WANT to handle this?

Do you believe in God? Jesus? The bible as the inspire word of God?

I just found out that this has become a thread to discuss betrayed and not Idhawk -

Betrayeed - Have you started a thread that deals with the things that you are going though? It is ok that others have posted advice to you but I just got lost trying to figure out who was asking for what -

WOW!!! Thank you sooooo much, MelodyLane, for the link to "Joseph's Letter"....it is fantastic! I am very much in agreement with those of you who feel it's impt to know all the details. I had been trying to get them out of my H, but he would get so irritated with my questions because he felt it would "set me back". That in turn made me so angry b/c I viewed it as his own selfishness and lack of consideration for what I'm going through. That's the reason I initially posted this question here. I am one who wants to know every detail......I am already incredibly hurt by this, so I feel that knowing the details will at least help me understand it better. I then I won't have to imagine what happened....at least I will know b/c for me, the not knowing would drive me crazy for the rest of my life I think. Anyway, I copied "Joseph's Letter" and personalized it a bit then E-mailed it to my H. It made all the difference in the world!! He came to me and said, "Wow, I can finally see why it's impt for you to know all the details." So he has now allowed me to ask anything and has been willing to really discuss it. It has been the first sign that we may have some hope. He said he didn't want to talk about it at first b/c he just didn't want to have to deal with all that. I said too bad, that's part of the consequences of your choice. I feel that admiting to all the details and having to tell me about it all is part of the accountability he owes me and part of him having to really accept what he did. He agreed. I explained to him that if we're really going to get healthy and be able to recover, all the facts need to be on the table so we know what we're dealing with and can go into it or not without any misconceptions. Some of you have said the same thing and I totally agree. The only thing I fear a little is that even in giving the details he may not be telling the truth.......I don't want him to be just humoring me. That was another excuse he used in the beginning for not wanting to tell me everything...he said, "Everything I say to you is a lie anyway in your mind, so why would you believe my answers to your questions?" But after reading Joseph's Letter, his whole attitude changed and he has just become so much more open and not angry. After having really gone through the whole thing from beginning to end he says he actually feels much better now that EVERYTHING is out. His mood has changed and I think he has a lot more hope now too. Yes the details are painful, but the not knowing and trying to go forward with someone unwilling to be open and honest....completely transparent.....is more painful and is setting yourself up for possible failure IMO.

ldawk,

Just as an example for you, concerning details.

Last night I asked some more questions about my WW's affair. I was trying to see if there was any sort of consistency with her relationship with OM as compaired to ours. One thing that we enjoyed from the start of our relationship was showering/bathing together. Last night I found out that she did indeed jump into the shower with him (he was showering after sex...she decided to surprise him by joining him in the shower). Does this hurt?....f#ck ya. Did it make me cry?....f#ck ya. Did I have to sleep on the couch, because I didn't want to share a bed with my wife?....f@ck ya.

Do I regret asking the question?....f#ck no.

I so agree with this. It has helped me so much now that I know all the details and the whole story. Yes, the details are extremely painful, but my H's finally being willing to really talk to me about it and be open with all of it has made a huge difference in the way I see him. What he did was horrible, yet how he is now so willing to really take responsibility for it and wanting to figure out what got him to that point changes the whole dynamic between us. Before knowing the details this was impossible for me to see how we could R, now I have some hope.

introvert,

I can relate. When my H shared details about how it got started and what the rendevous was like, it so reminded me of the beginning of our relationship.......almost identical. Only we were in high school and he's now 41! It is very painful to think that special moments with your spouse are tarnished by the fact that he/she did the same thing with someone else. On the flipside, I find myself wondering when he asks me to do certain things or wishes I was a certain way, or in the past asked me to wear certain things, was it because she did that for him and was he wishing I was more like her? I question everything now which is sad to me, but I'm hoping that eventually the whole comparing thing will fade. I just let him know what I'm thinking now......everything....I don't hold anything back. I think it lets him know where I'm at mentally/emotionally and it also lets him see just how damaging his actions were. And like you, I have absolutely no regrets about knowing all the details. I finally feel like a weight is off my shoulders. It is what it is and now that I actually KNOW what it is I can start to deal with it.

introvert,

btw, I forgot to tell you that I loved your flat tire analogy.....very well-said.

I'm so sorry to take over the thread. I will post my own. Sorry Idhawk. I just felt so much like you are and I related to the same subject of knowing all the details etc.

Idawk and Introvert,
I just wanna make one more comment on the "asking questions" thing because I did last night. I found out that this whole thing started almost 6 years ago. I wasn't sure before but I am now sure that he's a sex addict. He says it all started just "looking" at porn but then it grew bigger and bigger until he was joing groups and going to BDSM parties. My H met with women, went to clubs, did all kinds of horrible things. I didn't actually ask much more than was it anal or vaginal sex and I know oral was involved etc. I don't need too many pictures...I got the point of it all now. I don't know how many women he's been with over the past 6 years. I doubt he even knows. The big question is now, what do I do? This changes a lot. I will post more on another thread on how I feel but it just goes to show how important information is. I was also very hurt by hearing it all but I don't regret asking the questions. I need to know. Hope that helped.

Betrayed..
Where are you going to post? IF indeed it is a sex addiction, there are bunch of resources I can give you to help you and your husband (if he wants it) through your journey.

If your husband is an addict and he really wants help and chooses a therapist, please make sure that he sees a sex addiction therapist. If none are available, then he should see an addiction therapist. Not all mainstream therapists believe sex addiction/compulsion/whatever you'd like to label it exists. Some inexperienced therapists may tell you that YOU need to loosen up in the bedroom, which won't help IF your husband is a sex addict.

For me, just by the fact of merely knowing my H was involved with someone else, I'm already dealing with comparison issues about EVERYTHING....not just the sex. Now that I know all the details about the whole thing.......how they met, how it progressed, what they talked about, what kinds of things they did together, how and where they would meet, how often, etc., I can at least have the clear picture of what went on and I don't have to guess or wonder or create all kinds of scenarios that would be swirling in my head anyway. For me the knowing the truth is what's important and my H admitting to the truth and facing all the ugliness of it openly with me is what I needed. I am very glad that my H was finally willing to talk so openly about it. Had he not, I don't think I could take any steps toward R. Before he was willing to talk, I felt like that if he wasn't even willing to face square on what he did and admit to all of it, how in the world would he be able to face all the work required for true R? I felt that he couldn't just pick and choose what he wanted to face and work on (what was comfortable for him).....he has to face ALL of it and take responsibility for it. Bottom line, imo, it's better to move forward on a foundation of truth then to always have questions in the back of your mind. Lies are what enabled the whole A to take place and stay hidden.......I don't want to move forward with any lies or anything hidden b/c I think it would come out later and then be even more destructive.

betrayed mom,

It totally doesn't bother me to have you post on my thread......I'm very interested in your journey as well. It's all related to the same topic, knowing details, but I'm new to this too so if others with more experience feel it's not appropriate then that's ok. I want to make sure I'm following the rules with this whole process too.

Thank you. I would like that info. I posted on Recovery. I don't know if it belongs there but I'm trying to recover so....

H is going to see a sex therapist. He also went to the Recovery group at church. At the least he needs to do this for our children. Our relationship is up in the air. I love him but...well just read the post.

thanks Idawk,

I was thinking of asking my H to put some of it in writing if possible. I want a timeline of events. Where he went, what he did etc. Maybe not explict details but how many women etc...
I still feel like he's holding back some. I really grilled him about a woman he was seeing like 5 years ago. I overheard a conversation he had with her and I have reason to believe there is more to the story he's giving me. I'm pretty sure I heard him say to her that "She doesn't know we were lovers and doesn't need to". At least that's what it sounded like. He had a cd of pics of her. She's a um..."model" ofo sorts AHEM! COUGH!
He was looking at her and I'm guessing masterbating to those pic. Why else would he have had them and kept them?
I just want him to confess it all. I need to know.

Also writing things down is good proof for such a reason as if maybe later on they try to take it back and say, "No I never said I did that", or change the story. A few times my H has done this. He said one thing to me and then denied saying it later. If I have it in writing then he can't deny it.

IMO you should regret that knowledge. How are you better off by know that? Now, you are going to have a hard time having a shower with her.

I am just curious why would would want to have the positive things that you have shared together be taken away with knowledge?

She kissed him hundreds of times (I'm assuming)...I still kiss her. She had sex with the guy...multiple times....and I still have sex with her. She had meals with him...I still eat with her.

Am I mad and miserable about it now?...yes. But, at some point I'll probably shower with her again.

Of all of these things that I now know about her affair, that I didn't know before...I am bound to take back...when I'm ready.
And. I will take this back too...when I'm ready.

You seem to think that ignorance is bliss...I don't live my life like that. The stance that you are taking is basically a reflection on your own lack of confidence...IMHO.

My WW did many things with OM. And if I don't know everything she did with him I would be nothing but ignorant. I don't like being ignorant...not with anything in my life.

I would also like to add that your last sentence is something that you should take a look at again.

Knowledge does NOT take anything away...that fact she did it takes it away. Now that I know it was taken away...it is partly MY responsibility to take it back.

JMHO

edit:

I'm glad you got me going on this, because it reminded me about "taking things back"...which I think I will do tonight, when I get home.

Good for you ... you have shown the strength necessary to work through the issues to create a BETTER future. I've always thought that if you don't have the strength to face a situation straight up, you likely don't have the strength to do the heavy lifting necessary to reach your ultimate goal.

Congratulations on your progress!!!

The stance that you are taking is basically a reflection on your own lack of confidence...IMHO.

Will you explain how you have come to conclude that I lack self confidence?


Knowledge does NOT take anything away...that fact she did it takes it away. Now that I know it was taken away...it is partly MY responsibility to take it back.

The fact that she did it makes showers with you less special for her (imo) now you have the knowledge that she did for him what was special for you? You know you, do you think that you will be able to shower with her again without thinking about her with him?

He is better off knowing if it helps him put the affair into PERSPECTIVE. It helps him recover by knowing a certain level of detail because the DETAIL helps him UNDERSTAND the dynamic of the affair. He needs that in order to recover. This is information about HIS LIFE that was wrongfully withheld from him. So correcting that wrong means giving him the information that he requests.

Rebuilding TRUST means having no secrets with the OP to which the BS is not privy. That is how trust is rebuilt.

introverts "stance" does not have anything to do with a "lack of confidence" but rather with a need to RECOVER.

MoDaisy, I realize you know nothing about MB or adultery in general, so I would only refer you to these 2 articles to help you understand. You can't credibly give advice to others when you are not educated yourself. Please take the time to educate yourself on the material so you can give helpful advice.

Joseph's Letter

another key article: Requirements for Recovery



NOT having all the facts of the affair will prevent recovery and can even cause psychological problems.

I understand your opinion - I have read this letter and the additional information that you have posted -

Why are you afraid of opinions that differ from Dr. H's?

Are you afraid of being contradicted? Surely you don't have a problem with that. You seem comfortable contradicting a clinical psychologist with 35 years experience saving marriages, so I can't imagine you would have a problem with the reverse. Do you?

I think a more relevant question would be WHY are you giving "advice" about a subject which you know absolutely nothing. You have no credentials, no education, no experience, no track record at saving marriages, nothing.. Yet you contradict someone who has credentials and a long track record of successfully saving marriages.

Does that make any sense to you?

What would you say if I went over to the general dentistry forum and gave out medical advice even though I have no training and no experience in dentistry? Would that seem rational to you?

Do you think it would be helpful to the posters there?

I don't want a debate on who's right and who's wrong...to each their own.

All I can say is that I ask for details because I want to know exactly what my W has done. I don't live my life by sweeping things under the rug...it doesn't work for me. If it works for you...fine.

I must ask you though...

If you don't ask details, and you still have questions...just how long do you think you are going to have to live your life without those questions being answered? If you need to know...you need to ask, or you are doing yourself a diservice.

Whether the question is "what did you eat for dinner with OP?" or "did you do it doggy style?"...if you have a need to know...you need to ask. Otherwise, you might as well just book a bed for yourself in the mental health unit of your local hospital.

JMHO

Introvert,

Agreed for detail people everything must be told.

Details provide a cheap lie detector too, the more details given and noted, the more likely they will contradict themselves later if they are still being dishonest.

For the medically minded certain activites expose the wayward to different health threats. For example there is some recent evidence that oral and anal HPV leads to increased rates of cancer in those places, apparently its not just a cause of cervical cancer.

NJ

I'd like to reply to this. Althought you are right, positive thoughts are taken away with the negative sometimes. But knowing all the details can help make the decision to stay or go for one. My hubby brought his OW out to our pool to "play" while I was out of town. I told him I'll never want to swim in it again nor will I want sex out there. That's his fault, not mine.
I told him I never want to be brought to ANY place he took her, ever. Even if it was my favorite restuarant. If I decide the visions are too horrible then recovery may not happen. That's a possibility but I should be allowed to know the truth. My H should not be having sex with me somewhere that he had sex with HER too. Those visions will be in HIS head while he is having sex with me in the same spot and that's WRONG.

betrayedmom,

Some people here disagree with me, but I think that...people are defined by their actions. So, with that outlook, it is essential to know what exactly their actions were/are, in order to make an educated decision on whether to stay or go.

Why anyone would want to be uneducated about their spouse is something I will never understand.

I agree wholeheartedly with you.

You are exactly right. And it doesn't mean one is "insecure" for wanting to know the facts ABOUT THEIR OWN LIFE, only that they have a NEED TO UNDERSTAND their spouse and the dynamics of the affair.

It is impossible to build trust when a WS has SECRETS with the OP to which the spouse is not privy. That will prevent recovery, because every detail is information about the BS' LIFE to which he has a right. The idea that an OP is privy to SECRETS and the BS is kept in ignorance, is galling and disrespectful.

This is kind of where I start having a repeating argument in my head. My H cheated, lied, deceived, etc so those actions tell me one thing. Since d-day, H has been remorseful and contrite so those actions tell me something else. If his action's during the affair define him, do I ignore all other action pre-A and the present ones? H having an A in the first place was already a big FU to me, but some details just piss me off royally and I struggle with them because of the personal nature they have. I was already in disbelief that my H could even step out on me but that he would do THAT (fill in the blank)... :twobyfour:

Maybe it sounds bad but when I read some stories here I can look at my own and think my details aren't so bad. Other times I think mine are worse and I'm stupid for staying. Other times I'm just pissed and sad that any BS has to deal with this crap at all.

His actions during the affair DEFINE HIM. His actions AFTER the affair DEFINE HIM. Character is defined, not by being perfect, but in how we HANDLE our shortcomings. A person who redeems himself and make amends for his wrong doing is a big person indeed.

The affair is not the sum of who they are...but it is a big part of the equation. How much of the equation is the question.

If some BS's are happy (loosely speaking, of course) just knowing the sum, that's their decision. I need to know the whole equation....but that's just me.

I agree with what you are saying but at the same time A actions and post-A actions seem to be in direct conflict and then I drive myself crazy with which one matters most. I know no one is perfect and we all make mistakes but I even struggle has affair ending because I found out versus him ending it on his own. I dunno. Some days I feel like it's just semantics because either way I look at what he did...it sucks and he was a jerkn. I know he's trying to redeem himself and I give him credit for that but there are so many times the pain cuts so deep from the things he has done. Fog or not, he was an ahole to me and didn't care. That is hard to live with.

BR, I don't really understand what this means, but I suspect you are making this more complicated than need be. He did a terrible thing and has to REDEEM HIMSELF. He has to EARN TRUST. Earning trust takes a long time of demonstrated trustworthy behavior. If you feel he is untrustworthy, there is a reason for that. It is because he has not proven himself yet. That is not a contradiction, but how trust is EARNED.

I agree. The lines get blurred for me at times. If I heard my best girlfriend telling me her H did the things that mine did, I would be thinking what a fricking pathetic loser. It's only been 6 months since d-day so maybe this is just what I have to deal with until the images have more time to fade.

That's because he IS a pathetic loser...just like my WW was...MelodyLane's WH was...and your WH was(?)...is(?).

The sum of who my W is, isn't a pathetic loser...but part of her equation is a pathetic loser. And, I'll speak for Melodylane and say that she probably feels the same way (forgive me if I'm talking out of place MelodyLane) about her H.

I ask details to ensure I know just how much of a pathetic loser my W was...because that add's to her sum total...but it isn't the entire total.

My H will be the first to tell you he was a pathetic loser. But he is NOT that today. He is a GOOD MAN who worked hard to redeem himself and made full amends for what he did. He has been trustworthy for 8 years now. And he is cute, too!

H is not redeemed in my eyes yet but he is trying. What I mean is his A actions of course are terrible. If I hadn't found out some of the details of the A I wouldn't know just how bad it was. It still would have been terrible had I not found out about the details but now I'm disgusted by one or two specific details more so than others. Don't get me wrong, I wanted to know all. Pre-A I would think those specific details would have been the straw that broke the camels back and I'd be gone. But here I am...still here. Am I compromising myself and re-drawing my line in the sand? Maybe I am making this more complicated than needed. My brain is on overload looking at the events and detail from too many angles I guess.

Ahhh...the old "now I have to re-work MY values and morals" dilemma.

I went through this question at first, but as you move further on in recovery, you start to realize that you never had to chage your views on your values......your H has to change his....because he didn't have any.

Introvert and Melody,

Thanks for the insight. I agree with you both. Today has been cruddy and I need to refocus on the recovery. That I have control over.

One thing you might want to keep in mind is that some, in fact many, affairs are the result of an infatuation. This is commonly referred to as "falling in love" or romantic love. But, it has a physiological basis. During an infatuation, the brain is flooded with hormones, namely PEA, which cause a state of ecstacy and euphoria, the feeling of butterflies and being in love. PEA is an analog of amphetamine, and in itself is addictive. So, the WS becomes addicted to the OP. Like any addict, they will do anything to get their next fix (i.e., to see and be with OP). This includes lying and deceiving. During an infatuation, their brain is really incapable of being considerate of anyone else other than themselves and OP.

However, the infatuation eventually wears off, usually about 6 months. The WS then often returns to normal, and becomes very remorseful about what they've done and the hurt they've caused.

Shortly after my FWW began her A, I read up on infatuations, and saw she exhibited all the classic symptoms. I decided to try to be patient, and give her to August to come around (6 months after what I could see as the beginning of her infatuation with OM). While it was very hard, come late July, FWW began apologizing, and commenting what it was like in the fog, and she couldn't now believe what she had done, and couldn't understand who she was and what she was doing during the fog.

So, I would say give some consideration, but not much weight, to what they said during the A. He wasn't him. His body was snatched temporarily during the time of the infatuation. But, the more important thing is that it was the real him that allowed himself to get into a situation that led to the infatuation. That is what he must come to terms with to prevent it happening again.

Boy do I hear ya here. I never would have thought my H would do this to me. EVER. Now that he has it's so hard to look back and see the good in our marriage. I broke down and cried the other nigt and kept saying "How could you!!"

I deleted all the pictures of us together off out computer during our last vacation when I know he was carrying on with the OW. I took him on a birthday dinner cruise and we had some nice family time. He said he had a great birthday. He took lots of pics of that and of the whole trip with my family etc. I deleted all the cruise pics. As far as I'm concerned he didn't deserve it. I don't want to remember it now. I know he was calling her during "our" time together. I counted 72 phone calls back and forth from them on his cell phone bill. 5 of them on his birthday. That makes me so mad. He was supposed to be spending time with me and he was thinking about HER. Makes me sick.

On my last birthday, FWW tried calling OM 22 times! ON MY BIRTHDAY!! And in between the calls she managed to find time to give me my birthday present - a new wedding band to replace the one I lost.

A little ironic, don't you think?

On my 25th anniversary, 5 calls.

This is the kind of stuff that kills me. I don't know how they can do it. It's like the WS has a duel personality or something. How they can look you in the face and say that "I love you", "I'm here for you" etc. My WH told me lie after lie right to my face. When I was visiting with my family he was here at home doing everything he thought he could get away with while I was gone. We'd talk on the phone like everything was great. How he could act like he was commited to me and then get off the phone and be with her. It just makes me sick.

Don't have the phone bill for that one yet but I know he talked to her because I saw phone calls on that date from her. On our 15th wedding anniversary. He sent me flowers too. Hypocryte.

I totally understand how you feel. My husband took OW for a ride on our Harley, letting her use MY helmet! Our Harley had been so much a part of "us" and that ruined it for me. Last month we got rid of our Harley and bought a new one, and I bought a new helmet. He also had her in our trailer, and we're getting rid of it too.

When they bring it home, they destroy the home.

I don't know if anyone else has experienced this or not, but we're told to expose, so I did, and now friends are avoiding me...they think I should dump him and because I chose to continue working on our marriage, they have instead dumped me pretty much. It's no wonder people don't want to tell other people! Now we're considered tainted because we stayed with them!

[/quote]
Now that I know all the details about the whole thing.......how they met, how it progressed, what they talked about, what kinds of things they did together, how and where they would meet, how often, etc.[/quote]

My husband has told me things I wish I DIDN'T know! For instance, did I NEED to know that he talked with her about his childhood? Why would I want to know that he was that intimate with her? This after telling me it was "no big deal", it was "just sex"...he LIVED with her for two months (he works 3 1/2 hours away from home), of course I know it wasn't a ONS! But neither did I need to know just how close he'd opened up to her, that just hurt.

Are you telling your friends the details? If that's the case, stop. While exposure is necessary I don't think that means you have to tell them all the details. Those are for you.

ETA: Of course if you are going with plan D, then fire away.

This is my fear. I have told only a few friends and I feel they look at me like I'm a fool for staying. They "say" they support me in what I'm doing but you can hear it in their voice ya know? It's so hard to pretend though. I hate putting on that happy face and pretending everything is OK when I feel like sh%$ inside.

If your "friends" truly treat you that way then they aren't your friends. People know you must feel like crap so perhaps they are afraid to make you feel worse and aren't sure what to say or do for you.

My husband has told me things I wish I DIDN'T know! For instance, did I NEED to know that he talked with her about his childhood? Why would I want to know that he was that intimate with her? This after telling me it was "no big deal", it was "just sex"...he LIVED with her for two months (he works 3 1/2 hours away from home), of course I know it wasn't a ONS! But neither did I need to know just how close he'd opened up to her, that just hurt. [/quote]

I brought this issue up in counseling. I looked at H phone bill and saw pages and pages of calls. Not only EVERY day but several times a day. I was like "What the he!! Were you guys talking about??" What did you tell her that you could talk to me about??" Not in all our entire marriage have I spent THAT much time on the phone with my husband. And THAT hurt!

We lost a son together about 7 years ago. He really became a dark person after that and didn't open up. Now I know he should have went to grief counseling (maybe me too) but didn't.
He wouldn't talk to me but would talk to her and his other mistress. He confided in them about his feelings. It disgusts me that he would tell her about my beautiful boy. She has no business knowing those detais. NONE. And he had no right talking to her about it. The EA sometimes hurts more than the PA.

It's not how they treat me. They do call and check on me. See how things are going. I just feel like they think I should be gone and don't respect me as much for staying. Maybe I should be gone but I'm trying to do what's right. You get no respect in this world for doing the right thing sometimes. Just life I guess.

I called my best friend when I discovered the A, I was in shock and beside myself. She's never been in this situation before and thought I should dump him. Now she's cooled it towards me and is moving on. I feel double betrayed. I have tried to avoid talking about my M with her since the initial discovery, but she constantly says belittling things about him and shows suspicion without basis. I hate to lose my friend entirely, but may have no choice since we are working on our marriage. I've tried to talk to her about that but haven't gotten anywhere.

vow4good,

I know what you mean about it really hurting to know the details, yet for me, if I didn't know them I wouldn't know if it really was just sex or something more. I needed to know how deep my H was into this relationship and what I was dealing with. By knowing the details I have been able to figure that out and try to move on from there. Now that I know he was just chasing her for SF and wasn't emotionally intimate with her does not make it hurt any less, but it does give me a better understanding of the situation.

I agree with you, I see that now. He'd told me it was nothing, just about sex (so why her instead of me?), but the more I learned, the more I realize he downplayed it. If he was telling her stuff and spending all his free time with her, and helping her it was more than sex, it was a relationship. He once referred to her as his girlfriend and quoted someone else referring to him as her old man...that hurt, ouch! I'm not sure I can ever get over this, I still cry my eyes out when I'm alone and it's been 3 1/2 months! I'm certain I'll never feel the same about him, our relationship, our marriage, trust, nothing!

It's been almost that long for me as well and I'm feeling the same things. I still have the emails that went back and forth. I didn't manage to get all of them but the ones I have were enough to make me ill. He called her his "soul mate", told her he loved her, talked about how much he loved to kiss her etc, etc. Yes and all the efforts he made to be with her and not me or even our kids! All the hundreds of calls to each other. Ugh. It's so heart wrenching to think about your spouse with someone else. It's the worst pain I have ever felt. Trying to love the man who caused me such anguish is hard. I mean I do love him (which is why it hurts) but getting over it all....I don't know how.

He had a CD of pics at his work. He threw it in the trash but I never got to see what was on it. He didn't want me to. Part of me wanted to see it and then I thought it might be a bad idea. It's gone now so I'll never know. Now it's kinda bugging me. He showed me the pictures that supposedly came from the CD which wan't anything dirty, just him and some people he was out with. He admitted he had sex with one of the women in the pics. I don't know if there were pic taken of that or not. I do know he took pics during some of his affairs. It was something he was into. I don't know....picturing your husband having sex with another woman in your mind isn't quite the same as seeing real pictures. It may be TOO real. I know whether I see them or not it will eat at me though. The whole thing eats at me.

I'm sorry to say I know all too well what you mean. I do not think I can ever feel the same again about my husband, our marriage, anything. Knowing he obviously didn't feel the same way about our wedding vows as I did really bothers me, and knowing he could lay aside the fact that I exist and neglect me so he could spend him time with her, really bothers me. Knowing he didn't care how I'd feel about his sexual activity and emotional involvement with some tramp bothers me. I mean if he cared so much, how could he do it? Just thinking I'd never find out isn't good enough for me, I want to know HOW COULD HE DO THIS?! I mean if anyone has been neglected in this marriage, it's me not him, yet I was faithful. I was always high in the sex dept. so why did he go outside our marriage? They talk about Plan A, h_ll, I've LIVED "Plan A" with him since we were married! I just don't get anything. I think he's selfish and incapable of loving at least the way I thought he would love me. I think he has lied to me from Day one and conned me and I don't think there's a lot of hope. I don't even know why I'm giving him another chance. Maybe it's just the anger because it's been 3 1/2 months since D-day, maybe my anger is kicking in. I feel like I have every RIGHT to feel angry and I'm tired of trying to understand and be nice!

Well you have every right to be angry, as do I. I'm at the anger phase myself. More angry at HER than him at the moment. I'm thinking of so many ways to lash out though none of it will probably do any good. I'm mostly just hurt when it comes to my H. How he could even say "I love you" and then be with her! UGH!!
Lived in Plan A too, yet I really didn't know it for the longest time. Sometimes I feel like straying myself and taking pics for him to see me with another man. He says he is sorry and trying to make things right but it's not taking away what he's done to me. It doesn't make me forget the lies he told me over and over.
I feel like leaving him would hurt him really bad and that is what he deserves. Sadly I know it will hurt my kids most and I hate the idea of that. Sometimes I feel like staying makes him hink "Yeah, I cheated and got away with it. I don't have to pay for my actions." It's a dirty secret I hate keeping. Then the ones you do tell you feel like an a$$ around them for staying in the relationship. It just feels like a lose-lose situation sometimes.

It IS a lose-lose situation for us, unless they "get it" and are truly remorseful and do everything they can to make this up to us by being the H they should be.
I was told that 6 mos. is the worst and I'm only at 3 1/2...I don't even want to see what 6 mos. feels like.
The things you are saying...what you want is for him to feel what you felt and know how bad he hurt you, how wrong he is...but having an A of your own would not accomplish anything good, it would just lower yourself to being like him and you really don't want that. Keep on keeping on, maybe someday this will all pay off for us all...at any rate, we'll know so we can make an educated decision.

i know for me, the details were excruciating but absolutely necessary for me to even consider moving on ... i had to and still have to know everything...and as i come with new questions, my WH is willing to give details...even if he knows they are painful... that's my personality though, some people are better off not knowing.

I'm sorry you are going through this, i know the pain, and it's primal!!

I asked. I was told everything. It hurt. I didn't like it. I still don't like it 2 1/2 years out. We're in recovery. You need to know whatever you need to know. I'll tell you the truth...find it all out now, and if you can live with it and they get the severity of what they've done, stay. If you can't, what's going to happen if you do find out someday? If it happens again, do what you have to do. I had suspicions that there was more to it than I was told for six months and I finally dragged it out of her - every single detail. I made her answer explicit and uncomfortable questions just to make her say the words. It changed her attitude towards what she had done. It became real.