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Originally Posted by Galoot
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I will respectfully disagree with this premise. What a BS needs is the full and complete story to make a fully informed decision about their future. What you advocate in your post, in hindsight, is simply "sweeping it under the rug" because it was TOO painful for you to hear.

I believe you misconstrue. I was not "sweeping it under the rug." There were things I wanted to know and asked about which were necessary for healing and for moving on, such as to what she felt like when she fell in love, to what extent she felt guilt or shame during the A, the frequency and location of their rendevous, and, especially, how did it end, how she felt about him during and after it ended, what was said.

However, knowing the grimy little details of what they did in bed, or on the floor, as the case may be, didn't help me. Knowing how he performed anal sex on her, or how he taught her to give better BJ's didn't help me. Those kind of things were TOO PAINFUL to hear, and they didn't help me, either in deciding what to do with our relationship, or how to heal. In fact, they hindered our healing process. Some things are better left a mystery.

How did these details come about? Did you ask, then regret asking?


"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth"

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Originally Posted by Galoot
However, knowing the grimy little details of what they did in bed, or on the floor, as the case may be, didn't help me. Knowing how he performed anal sex on her, or how he taught her to give better BJ's didn't help me. Those kind of things were TOO PAINFUL to hear, and they didn't help me, either in deciding what to do with our relationship, or how to heal. In fact, they hindered our healing process. Some things are better left a mystery.

First, I'm not arguing with you ... different people see things differently, and I think its usually best to explore all sides of an issue.

For me, I would have to know these details to make a fully informed decision about whether to attempt R.

I would venture a guess that because these things were "TOO PAINFUL" to hear about, might be because you had never seen this side of your WW. Therefore, its important to know that she has this side to her, and that she may have been willing to engage in behavior with OM that she had denied you, as her H.

I truly believe that as BH's, we do ourselves a grave disservice when we make a life affecting decision without ALL of the details, no matter how painful they may be. It's very easy to commit to R too soon in our eagerness to stop the A and get our WW's back and important details get overlooked.

We are all capable of making major life screw-ups, and JustLearning helped me out a lot by getting me to concentrate on my WW's actions AFTER making such a major life screw-up, but to fully understand how she was recovering from her mistakes, I had to fully understand what she was recovering FROM.

I firmly believe that D is the proper response to an A, and it takes an exceptional WW to justify the hardships of R for the BH, and its imperative for the BH to know the extent of the betrayal before he can begin to judge whether his WW qualifies as the exception to that rule.

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Originally Posted by MyRevelation
[quote=Galoot]

I firmly believe that D is the proper response to an A, and it takes an exceptional WW to justify the hardships of R for the BH, and its imperative for the BH to know the extent of the betrayal before he can begin to judge whether his WW qualifies as the exception to that rule.

Well said. This is exactly how I feel too.

After disovering the A...D is basically the first and foremost option, IMO. Not until after everything is out and on the table can any WS make an informed decision on whether to R or not.

Ignorance is NOT bliss....not in this situation.


"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth"

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Originally Posted by ldawk7
Hi betrayedmom,

I do hope it helps you too......maybe we'll learn together smile I have asked my H so many questions....practically drilled him. I just got confirmation on 8/10, so since then I have had so many questions. At first he would get so mad if I questioned him. He felt like, "Well I admitted it so now let's just move on" That made me even more hurt and angry. When I first found out I told him that the one thing I definitely needed was for him to end it in front of me. He was against that at first, but agreed the next day and he followed through. So when I had questions after that he actually accused ME of lying because I had said that I only needed one thing to move forward. Now I just wanted to keep bringing up the past by insisting on talking about it. The nerve of him!! He was doing nothing to work on things...just wanted to move forward though. Thankfully, since then he has changed his thinking a bit and has answered questions. But it just seems that it leads to more questions. What I hear is very hurtful and that's why he says it's not a good idea and will just set me back further. But I feel like I need to know because I just need the truth......from him. It is hard to swallow the truth, but I think it's harder not knowing. It's kind of torture either way, but I desperately just want him to be telling the truth. Sometimes I will already know the truth without letting on and then I'll question him about it just to see if he'll tell the truth. I think it's the most destructive part of the whole betrayal.......being lied to for so long and then left to wonder if he will ever be trustworthy.

Wow, sounds just like me here. H wanted to just move on and not talk about anything. He keeps saying lets move forward but all those metal images keep flooding my mind. He will say he told me everything and then something will come out just on accident that he "forgot" to tell me. Then there are the heaps of lies he told me over and over during the affair and even after I found out,while he swore it was over but he was still calling her and meeting her. I don't know what's truth anymore. He's destroyed my trust. He lied about bringing her to our house. That makes me ill. I told him I don't know if I can live here anymore and he tried to act like it was a stupid excuse for moving. Like it was no big deal. I hate how he dismisses my pain.
I know what you mean about finding the truth and then questioning too. That's my plan now. I found out one secret already and have been trying to get him to admit to it but he hasn't. I can't say anything yet though because it will reveal my sources so it's killing me to bite my tongue for now.
I'm so drained from all the spying, the lack of sleep, the crying. I just feel lost.
I asked a few more questions last night and then just burst into tears. I just said "how could you?" over and over. I said "Was I that awful of a wife that you had to do this to me?" It's all so painful and fresh right now even though it's been over a month. I don't know how I'm ever gonna heal. I hope it fades with time eventually. HE keeps saying he wants to comfort me and be there for me when I'm in pain. The problem is HEs the one who hurt me. I feel like the battered wife who was just hit by her husband and then he holds her and says "OH honey, I'm so sorry, let me make you feel better."

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betrayedmom,

Someone here (can't remember who) said that talking about these issues with your WS is like "being raped, then going to your rapist for counselling"....truer words have never been spoken...except maybe by that Jesus guy.


"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth"

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Originally Posted by introvert
Originally Posted by MyRevelation
[quote=Galoot]

I firmly believe that D is the proper response to an A, and it takes an exceptional WW to justify the hardships of R for the BH, and its imperative for the BH to know the extent of the betrayal before he can begin to judge whether his WW qualifies as the exception to that rule.

Well said. This is exactly how I feel too.

After disovering the A...D is basically the first and foremost option, IMO. Not until after everything is out and on the table can any WS make an informed decision on whether to R or not.

Ignorance is NOT bliss....not in this situation.

I have seriously considered D. I thinl the decision would be much easier if we did not have 2 children together. It seems to be the biggest thing keeping me here and trying. My childen would be devastated by a divorce and as a mother I feel obligated to keep them from that pain. It's hard enough for me to deal with all this, I can't have my children grieving as well.
If there is any chance my WH can R and become a better man for his family I think that would be the overall best choice. I don't know if I will ever be happy in that and I don't know if I will ever fall back in love with him. He has destroyed so much. Fixing the furture doesn't erase the past but if there is a true change then maybe the memories won't be in my face all the time.
I can only hope.

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Originally Posted by betrayedmomof2
Originally Posted by introvert
Originally Posted by MyRevelation
[quote=Galoot]

I firmly believe that D is the proper response to an A, and it takes an exceptional WW to justify the hardships of R for the BH, and its imperative for the BH to know the extent of the betrayal before he can begin to judge whether his WW qualifies as the exception to that rule.

Well said. This is exactly how I feel too.

After disovering the A...D is basically the first and foremost option, IMO. Not until after everything is out and on the table can any WS make an informed decision on whether to R or not.

Ignorance is NOT bliss....not in this situation.

I have seriously considered D. I thinl the decision would be much easier if we did not have 2 children together.

It's not.


"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth"

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Originally Posted by introvert
Originally Posted by betrayedmomof2
[quote=introvert][quote=MyRevelation][quote=Galoot]


I have seriously considered D. I thinl the decision would be much easier if we did not have 2 children together.

It's not.


I think it would be for me. I'm not saying it wouldn't be painful but it would only be my pain. I can't look my children in the eyes and say "We are getting a divorce." "Daddy hurt mommy and she can't be with him any more." "We are moving to a new home and a new school and daddy won't be around for the holidays anymore" etc etc That all just seems worse right now.

I got this off Dr Harley's web site on Coping with an Affair:


One of the reasons I'm not so keen on dredging up the past as a part of therapy is that it brings up memories that carry resentment along with them. If I'm not careful, a single counseling session can open up such a can of worms that the presenting problem gets lost in a flood of new and painful memories. If the goal of therapy is to "resolve" every past issue, that seems to me to be a good way to keep people coming for therapy for the rest of their lives. That's because it's an insurmountable goal. We simply cannot resolve everything that's ever bothered us.

Instead, I tend to focus my attention on the present and the future, because they are what we can all do something about. The past is over and done with. Why waste our effort on the past when the future is upon us. Granted, it's useful to learn lessons from the past, but if we dwell on the past, we take our eyes off the future which can lead to disaster.

I personally believe that therapy should focus most attention, not on the past, but on ways to make the future sensational. And when a spouse comes to me with unresolved feelings of resentment about something their spouse did in the past, I tend to put it on hold and focus on issues that prevent mistakes of the past from recurring. I ask them to trust my judgment, and see what happens to the resentment when the marriage has a chance to become fulfilling. In almost every case, resentment fades, as I predicted. While the painful memories are not entirely forgotten, the most recent marital experiences which are fulfilling and enjoyable, dominate a person's thinking, and resentment becomes weak and infrequent.


It seems he is saying not to go over every little detail of the affair. Adding more horrible pictures could be disasterous.

He also says looking at the past helps us fix the furture. I guess he means by looking at past mistakes and learning from them. One past mistake I look at on my part was being so trusting. Overlooking things he was doing. Now I have no trust and I feel I need to trust in order to move forward. Seems impossible. I fear if I do trust him he will do it again.

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I respect Dr.H's opinion, but I think he's missing the point on this subject.

Yes, it's great to work on the present and the future. But, if you need to fix your marriage how do you do it if you don't know how broken it was? Without knowing details of the affair, and how far the mistake actually went, what exactly are you trying to fix?

You can't fix a flat tire unless you can find the screw that made it flat.


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First of all I would like to state that this is a decision that the BS gets to decide. The BS should carefully consider how much they want/need to know minus being influenced by the WS, OP, MC's, IC's, or any others regarding how much info they get to ask for.

There needs to be caution so that the BS doesn't ask for more info than they can currently handle, but in the long run there's no point in staying in a marriage that harbors secrets.

Also, even if the BS doesn't want to know more details, they may eventually end up learning more anyway, experiencing multiple D-days interfering with recovery.

I know a LOT about my WXH's goings on that he didn't want me to know. I found out more by seeking the info, asking others, others volunteering the info without me asking, and figuring things out in hindsight. He didn't give me much info when I asked. I would not have demanded to know a whole lot more if he had been willing to give up OW to work on saving our marriage. I was willign to put in behind us. I don't really feel like I need to know a whole lot more now. It is increasingly behind me.

When I discovered that my husband had a serial adultery problem I didn't really need to know more than that. I had found out about a ONS he'd had on a business trip (bimbette sent him a letter), handed him a pencil and pad of paper when he came home from work, and told him to write on ther the name of the OW. He answered that he woudln't know where to start! I got STD tested
and gave him a choice between MC or divorce. I never made him write down all the women's names because they really didn't matter to me at that point. He had a problem. The details didn't matter to me. (Also, I naively assumed that just because those OW were ONS's, lived in other states, and this was pre-internet, that they weren't that much a threat to our marriage, and he agreed to no more business trips, that our marriage would make it.)

But the latest OW was a co-worker, not someone he met out of town, and definitely not just a ONS. It was also what is sometimes called an 'exit affair' and a 'romantic affair. He fell 'in love' with her. AND I DID ask questions.

But his attitude was that I didn't have a right to ask, that it was something private between he and she that was none of my business. That definitely would have not worked in the long run, even if I didn't ask him for any more info.

IMHO it's not so much how much info is given as who is controlling the access to the info.

Of course how the BS goes about asking for the info may affect the process... but the bottom line is that the BS does have a right to ask for any info they need/want to find out. I think the suggestion I read in another thread (from ManInMotion) of writing down the questions is a good idea. That could help if the WS feels 'attacked' by the BS's questioning style or timing
(or help the BS eliminate that as an excuse...)

The BS just needs to make sure to have lots of support lined up to deal with whatever they're told.

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The advice listed by BWS is good in my opinion. You have to decide what you "really" need to know vs. what you think you "want" to know.

I would recommend that you not ask for details in the heat of a conversation. Take the time to think through what you want to know.

Like BWS mentioned, if you have details they might inhabit your future actions. If you get to a point of wanting to meet all of his sexual needs then it might make it that much harder if you have to deal with comparison issues.

Here is a quote from one of your other posts - "How do I meet this need of his when I have pictures of all the things he's been doing swirling in my head?"

How many more pictures do you want? What will those pictures do for you?

I wish you the best -
_________________________


If we are consumed with highlighting our spouses falling short, we will miss the divine mysteries of marriage and the lessons that it has to teach us. As long as a couple is married they continue to display “however imperfectly” the ongoing commitment between Christ and his church. Thus, simply “sticking it out” becomes vitally important. Just sticking it out is victory in and of itself and creates a certain glory. Sacred Marriage
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Originally Posted by MoDaisy
The advice listed by BWS is good in my opinion. You have to decide what you "really" need to know vs. what you think you "want" to know.

I would recommend that you not ask for details in the heat of a conversation. Take the time to think through what you want to know.

Like BWS mentioned, if you have details they might inhabit your future actions. If you get to a point of wanting to meet all of his sexual needs then it might make it that much harder if you have to deal with comparison issues.

Here is a quote from one of your other posts - "How do I meet this need of his when I have pictures of all the things he's been doing swirling in my head?"

How many more pictures do you want? What will those pictures do for you?

I wish you the best -
_________________________

MoDaisy,

You seem to be implying that she won't get those pictures if she doesn't get the details.

Well, she doesn't have the details and still has the pictures. It seems like she is doing exactly what you are recommending already, but she still gets pictures. It's not helping her and she needs to try something else...not stay status quo...IMHO.


"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth"

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I am not saying that she will or will not have mental pictures of what "might" have happened if she does not explore details.

I am saying having specific details my alter her judgement in the future.

For instance, lets say she finds out her H did something specifically for the OW that he has never done for her. It is possible that she will "watch" for him to do that for her as a sign that his passion for her is back. That might lead to future trouble for them.

I think that she should ask as many questions and get as much detail as she wants - I think that she should just be intentional about what she asks and that she should consider why she wants to know that. If his answer is going to help her heal then she should ask it. But if she is just asking questions because she is dealing with the pain and does not know why she wants to know then she should slow down a little.

What can she do differently?

Make a list of questions that you want answers to. Think about that list for a few days and reconsider asking it. Post that list here and ask us what we think of the questions that you have. After you spent time thinking through that list - ask away. Repeat the process as long as you need to.


If we are consumed with highlighting our spouses falling short, we will miss the divine mysteries of marriage and the lessons that it has to teach us. As long as a couple is married they continue to display “however imperfectly” the ongoing commitment between Christ and his church. Thus, simply “sticking it out” becomes vitally important. Just sticking it out is victory in and of itself and creates a certain glory. Sacred Marriage
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Originally Posted by introvert
I respect Dr.H's opinion, but I think he's missing the point on this subject.

Yes, it's great to work on the present and the future. But, if you need to fix your marriage how do you do it if you don't know how broken it was? Without knowing details of the affair, and how far the mistake actually went, what exactly are you trying to fix?

You can't fix a flat tire unless you can find the screw that made it flat.

Well that's why he oes on to say the past is to be used for reviewing the mistakes and what led up to the affair etc. EN's not met by each other etc.
I haven't asked for every detail of every sexual moment. I don't know if I can handle it, and if I had that image in my mind would it be worse than the things my mind creates. My H was into some pretty sick stuff. He says he only slept with her and used protection. Do I trust that? I don't think I will get the truth out of him if I ask. I think there are things he will not admit to me. I don't know what version of the story he will give me if I do ask. I will probably truely never kow it all. I may just have to accept that. Digging around all the time is killing me.

As far as fixing past mistakes and learning from the actions in the affair though, my biggest regret is being so trusting and naive. I should have been more assertive and forced boundaries on him. I feel like I could have stopped this from starting. The fact that it went on for months without me seeing it kills me. Maybe I just didn't want to see it? I know there were signs but I just couldn't believe he would do this to me.

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Originally Posted by introvert
betrayedmom,

Someone here (can't remember who) said that talking about these issues with your WS is like "being raped, then going to your rapist for counselling"....truer words have never been spoken...except maybe by that Jesus guy.

Funny you mention this. I accidently ran across my H bank records while paying a bill. Never thought to look there. I found some stuff that let me to ask more questions and turns out he brought her to our house! He ays they didn't hav sex in our house or bed but they got "sexual" at the pool. I was mortified. He has defiled my home now. I told him I may never swim in that pool again and may even want to sell our home. He thought this was an over reaction. I brought it up in counseling. The therapist said he has giving me a good reason to hate the house now. I changed the story for him and said"What if I was raped here and said I couldn't live here any longer because it hurt too much?" He said it wasn't a good comparision. The therapist said it was. I don't know if I feel like I was raped. Maybe abused.
I feel more like I'm in mourning. I'm mouring my marriage and my H. It's like he died and my life is over. I don't know if him changing will fix that feeling. I don't know if he can change.
He says he wants to. We are going to counseling. He said he will go to a recovery group and be open with me. WHy dont' I feel better? I still feel lied to for some reason.

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Originally Posted by betrayedmomof2
Originally Posted by introvert
betrayedmom,

Someone here (can't remember who) said that talking about these issues with your WS is like "being raped, then going to your rapist for counselling"....truer words have never been spoken...except maybe by that Jesus guy.

Funny you mention this. I accidently ran across my H bank records while paying a bill. Never thought to look there. I found some stuff that let me to ask more questions and turns out he brought her to our house! He ays they didn't hav sex in our house or bed but they got "sexual" at the pool. I was mortified. He has defiled my home now. I told him I may never swim in that pool again and may even want to sell our home. He thought this was an over reaction. I brought it up in counseling. The therapist said he has giving me a good reason to hate the house now. I changed the story for him and said"What if I was raped here and said I couldn't live here any longer because it hurt too much?" He said it wasn't a good comparision. The therapist said it was. I don't know if I feel like I was raped. Maybe abused.
I feel more like I'm in mourning. I'm mouring my marriage and my H. It's like he died and my life is over. I don't know if him changing will fix that feeling. I don't know if he can change.
He says he wants to. We are going to counseling. He said he will go to a recovery group and be open with me. WHy dont' I feel better? I still feel lied to for some reason.

Don't let him try and make you feel like selling the house is an over-reaction...it isn't.

My WW brought OM to our house to pack up her belongings (the belongings she thought she was "entitled" to anyway)...the day after DDay. Her clothes were easy for them to pack because they were all on the front step, but she brought him inside to pack up furniture and other items...(although they were nice enough to leave 1 kitchen chair and a table for me...talk about pouring salt in my wounds).

Anyway, back to the point I was getting at...I pretty much forced WW to sign the paperwork to sell our house. Even the thought of that fat slob in my house was enough to make me want to burn it to the ground. It was on the market for a couple months, while she still spoke with, and slept ot OM's house (once...but nothing happened :RollieEyes:)....then she put me through DDay#2. I then wanted to drastically drop the price of the house to get the h3ll out of it, but she initially refused to sign the paperwork to drop the price. Talk about a selfish [censored]...screws another guy, brings him into our house, then wants to call the shots and dictate when I can move on with my life. She finally caved, then we sold. I was moving on with or without her...she asked me if she could come with me so we can try to recovery. We have since moved to another town.

My point being...don't let your selfish husband dictate your situation. Take control of it...he will soon follow. If you need to move to help get some closure...don't ask him...demand it. If he wants to recovery and is sincere about it, tell him that a) you are either selling the house, or b) divorcing his sorry [censored].


"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth"

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Originally Posted by introvert
[quote=betrayedmomof2][quote=introvert]betrayedmom,

Don't let him try and make you feel like selling the house is an over-reaction...it isn't.

My WW brought OM to our house to pack up her belongings (the belongings she thought she was "entitled" to anyway)...the day after DDay. Her clothes were easy for them to pack because they were all on the front step, but she brought him inside to pack up furniture and other items...(although they were nice enough to leave 1 kitchen chair and a table for me...talk about pouring salt in my wounds).

Anyway, back to the point I was getting at...I pretty much forced WW to sign the paperwork to sell our house. Even the thought of that fat slob in my house was enough to make me want to burn it to the ground. It was on the market for a couple months, while she still spoke with, and slept ot OM's house (once...but nothing happened :RollieEyes:)....then she put me through DDay#2. I then wanted to drastically drop the price of the house to get the h3ll out of it, but she initially refused to sign the paperwork to drop the price. Talk about a selfish [censored]...screws another guy, brings him into our house, then wants to call the shots and dictate when I can move on with my life. She finally caved, then we sold. I was moving on with or without her...she asked me if she could come with me so we can try to recovery. We have since moved to another town.

My point being...don't let your selfish husband dictate your situation. Take control of it...he will soon follow. If you need to move to help get some closure...don't ask him...demand it. If he wants to recovery and is sincere about it, tell him that a) you are either selling the house, or b) divorcing his sorry [censored].

I mentioned on another post how it feels like I'm grieving my marriage and my husband. It's like he died and I'm grieving. The difference is there is a hope that he could come back, but I have so much doubt and pain clouding that hope right now.
The other difference is when you are grieving a true death, poeple know and are there to comfort you. I am quite alone in this. I have told a few friends and my sister in law who went through the same ordeal with her H years ago. I can't tell my family (they don't even live in the same state anyways)and I don't wish to advertise this kind of news so I have to put a smile on every day and act like all is normal for most of the world. That is so hard. No one know about my secret pain. No one knows I'm not just being lazy, I'm depressed.

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Why can't you tell your family?

Maybe you're depressed because you are alone. Wouldn't some more support help?


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Oh and I mean to add, that it's another reason for not moving right now. Obviously it would open up our marriage to everyone. We'd have to forclose on our house right now. I don't think we could sell in this market. I suppose I could make up some lie on why we are selling but just creates a whole mess with the kid and school etc. I dunno. Moving to another state would be wonderful. Getting away from "her" and knowing she is far far away would make me feel better for starters. It's not that I care if all his friends know what he did, I just don't want to lose respect for staying. I feel I'm doing right by my kids but some people don't see it that way. Some days I don't respect myself even. I feel like total crap and want to crawl into a hole.
I did show some baIIs to my H and I think he knows I'm close to leaving him. He's trying more to change and take the right steps towards recovery. I hope it's for real.

Joined: Jun 2008
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Originally Posted by betrayedmomof2
Oh and I mean to add, that it's another reason for not moving right now. Obviously it would open up our marriage to everyone. We'd have to forclose on our house right now. I don't think we could sell in this market. I suppose I could make up some lie on why we are selling but just creates a whole mess with the kid and school etc. I dunno. Moving to another state would be wonderful. Getting away from "her" and knowing she is far far away would make me feel better for starters. It's not that I care if all his friends know what he did, I just don't want to lose respect for staying. I feel I'm doing right by my kids but some people don't see it that way. Some days I don't respect myself even. I feel like total crap and want to crawl into a hole.
I did show some baIIs to my H and I think he knows I'm close to leaving him. He's trying more to change and take the right steps towards recovery. I hope it's for real.


You think? Maybe you need to make it more clear.

Last edited by introvert; 09/10/08 04:41 PM.

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