Where to start... Ok, This isn't my first experience with MB, unfortunately my last experience ended up in Divorce after 12 years of marriage. But, I still believe in the principles of MB and am trying to incorporate them into my current relationship. I should note (because my GF brings it up all the time) that I'm somewhat jaded when it comes to male-female friends; my x-wife had an affair, and is now married to, my best friend.

My GF and I have been together for over a year now. Shortly after we met we moved in together; six months later our relationship ended after a drunken night of picking fights. We were on the outs for two months; still in each others lives, but not together. We decided that we were both miserable apart from each other, and we would give it another try, this time taking things much slower. So, she moved into the house across the street, and things have been pretty good, up until the past month or so.

I'm not sure what's going on, but I'm to the point where I want to just give up; throw my hands in the air and let her fall on her face. We had a mutual friend (male) when we were together the first time; but him and I had a falling out and are no longer friends. She maintains this friendship, much to my disappointment. Oh, I think I may have forgotten one important part... they were lovers once; had a two month relationship that ended, but blossomed into them becoming "best friends"...

I've tried to comprimise; I've made demands; I've nearly begged her to cut ties with him... It seems the more it bothers me, the more she pushes the issue. Finally, I said OK, enough is enough, if you're going to be friends with him at least have the common courtesy of letting me know when and what you talk about. She did, for about three days. Feeling like something was wrong I checked her phone, and saw that they had been texting SEVERAL times a day, and he was using pet names such as "sweetie", "honey" and "babe". This, of course, led to another huge fight between us... I'm stuck. I Love this woman with all my heart, and one day I want to call her my wife, but I cannot do that while she is lying to me, being deceitful in her actions or in-actions, etc. I'm out of ideas and nearly out of patience. I need to find a way to resolve this before she completely destroys my Love for her.

One other thing that may be of importance... My GF lost her father when she was 14, and seems to hold on to male friends much longer than female friends. In fact, she has very few female friends at all. She is in counseling (part of the agreement we made when we got back together), but her counselor is only getting 1/2 the story, and tells her that I could be manipulating or trying to control her by making demands on who she can or can't be friends with...

Read this sentence you wrote over and over. You know all about divorce. You know all about infidelity - and the lies and deciet that go along with it. Why would you want to make this woman your wife if you know exactly where it will lead? Yes you love her, but you are not bound to her. You don't have to relive this kind of pain. Why would you want to?

JAB, what I see here is a test drive that did not pass the test. First off, she persists in remaining "friends" with old lovers. That is a set up for an affair right there. Secondly, she is telling you that she does not care about your feelings by continuing her "friendship" with this fella even though she knows it upsets you.

So here you have a wife candidate who has loose boundaries that are likely to lead to an affair who does not respect your feelings. Not only that, but you have shacked up with her and your relationship ended after a drunken brawl.

My question to you is: ARE YOU NUTS? How can a person in his right mind expect to find happiness with a person who has no respect for his feelings, who gets drunk and fights, and who hangs out with old lovers?

The problem is YOU and your tragic judgment, my friend. Your refusal to use common sense is the problem.

You're exactly right. My head tells me everything that you've said, but my heart tells me something different, which is why I'm still here. I've gone through this before, and I learned when to trust my gut & heart over my head. No, I'm not legally bound to her; we're not married. BUT, I've committed myself to her, and to our family, so I'm not going to just walk away.

Walking away, in my opinion, would be the easy route; I've never been one for taking the easy route for anything. Maybe I'm fooling myself, maybe this will end badly, but I'm still holding out for the fairy tale that I know is possible...

MelodyLane... WOW! You were one of my supporters the last time I was here; it's been a few years, but I have not forgotten the wisdom that you and others shared with me!

Ok, I've used the analogy that she doesn't care about my feelings because she's still friends with him. She counters with "If you don't want me to be friends with him, then YOU don't care about MY feelings"...

Am I nuts??? Looking at it from a purely logical standpoint... YES! But, as I said in an earlier post, I just can't walk away, at least not yet. I never thought I'd have the strength to walk away, but when my x-wife had her 2nd affair that's exactly what I did; without hesitation. So, I know that I can, but I don't believe it's time to do that yet.

When we are getting along it is the most amazing thing I've ever experienced; 2nd only to the birth of my children. This is how we are the majority of the time, until lately. We talk about marriage, we talk about our future, we even make plans. But, when I tell her that I have to see that she's going to be truthful and honest with me, she says she feels like she's not worthy and I'm testing her. When I tell her that I don't approve of her friendship, she says I'm trying to manipulate and / or control her.

I do not trust this guy; he is a snake in the grass (that's being very nice), but for some reason she believes everything he says, and regards him as "a father figure". This may be another issue for me, since my x-wife had an affair with my best friend, who she also described as a father figure...

I just need to know if I'm sticking my head in the sand, or if I'm over-reacting because of my past experiences. And, if I'm over-reacting, how do I change that?

Thanks,
Tim

Deja Vu... are duplicate threads in two days necessary?

I still say walk away. You don't want to, that's your choice of course. Just prepare yourself for a life of heartache with this one. You beg her to stop a certain behavior, she knows it bothers you, and her response is to give you the finger. She's not your wife and there's not children. Cut your losses.

You are not "stuck." This is a disaster waiting to happen.

That is really cute and all, but the bottom line is that HER FEELINGS about her former lover and her continued association are DAMAGING TO YOUR RELATIONSHIP. You don't negotiate things that will HARM your relationship. She is clearly putting her friendship with this man BEFORE YOU.

And you consider this a potential marriage PARTNER? Are ya NUTS??

So, simply ask yourself this: do you want to be married to a woman who does not respect your feelings and has no protective boundaries. She has TOLD YOU she that REFUSES to affair proof your relationship. And this is marriage material to you?


There is no logic and no common sense being used here, Biker. You can logically see the problems here and choose to ignore them. You are setting yourself up for another disaster by using poor judgment.

You already know that this relationship will not work yet here you are.

Why would you set yourself up for a repeat? Is the sex THAT GOOD? Do you see how using NO common sense in your selections is setting you up for problems?

Do you have ANY STANDARDS WHATSOEVER in choosing a wife? ANY AT ALL? Or is it all based on the feeling de jour like a teenage girl?

Do you realize that FEELINGS CHANGE and if you married someone who has no respect for you and who carries on with old lovers and gets into drunken brawls that you WON'T FEEL THAT WAY FOR LONG?

Sorry black_raven, but I thought I might get some more visibility in this thread. Necessary? Maybe not, but I can feel my Love for her eroding by the day, so maybe I'm just a bit desperate to find a solution before I lose my Love for her completely. I put up with as much as I could last time before letting her go, but now I feel like I walked out on her when she needed me most, when she was at her lowest point.

I know I'm not "stuck"; bad choice of words on my part. Maybe being between a rock & a hard place is a better way to put it.

TEENAGE GIRL TALK!!

Following your feelings is a sure fire way to end up in the ditch, my friend. And that is exactly where you are headed. FEELINGS are very deceptive and will always lead you wrong.

You are a MAN, not a teenage girl.

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Jeriamiah 17:9


He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered. Proverbs 28:26

Since you've been here before, I assume you are ensuring that you practice no Love Busters, and you know all her Emotional Needs and are meeting them? If so, and she refuses to cut off the friendship, it's a sinking ship.

However, if you are not actively being the best potential husband you can possibly be, you need to address this first. Work on yourself. Then come back and see if she still hunkers down about her friend. It sounds to me like he's providing something to her that should be what YOU give her. Whatever it is - affection, appreciation, laughs, admiration - figure it out! If she gets it from you, she won't be so desperate to hang on to him.

cat, they are not married. They are dating.

Yeah, I saw that I left out a word; just went back and fixed it.

So you can understand why it would not make sense to try to meet EN's, etc. These principles are for marriages, not for dating situations where there is no committment. Dating is a job interview for marriage. If they can't get past the job interview, there shouldn't be a marriage. Its like test driving a car. You don't overhaul the engine of a car you are test driving because it is not yours. If the engine is unworthy, you simply don't buy the car.

We just did the ENQ and LBQ within the past couple of weeks, so I now know some things that I wasn't doing that I need to be doing to meet her EN's. This is why I think we should have some more time to work through this, and not just walk away.

My first thought was that I'm not giving her everything she needs; if I was she wouldn't be seeking something elsewhere...

MelodyLane, maybe that's where the disconnect is. We have "committed" to each other without taking vows. We've both been through a lot of $h!t in the past and had both given up on the "outdated concept of marriage"... Had... This is the first time since my divorce that I've even considered marriage; before my GF I was completely against EVER getting married again. However, as it stands right now, I consider her my wife and that's why we're exploring and implementing MB principles.

I disagree that the concepts won't work for dating couples, if the intent to be serious is there. But that wasn't my point. We're only hearing his side. He may be exaggerating her part, or he may be leaving out things he's done or said that could be affecting the situation. She could not even have any intention of being serious with him, and feels he's being ridiculous if they're just dating.

JAB, I would point out that there is no disconnect at all. Feelings are not truth. If I test drive a car and I tell the owner that I am "committed" to buying it, but don't buy it, then my committment is just empty talk.

There is a huge difference between dating and marriage, and I think that is part of YOUR disconnect. You are not married, your relationship could not even survive shacking up.


Yet you insist on calling her your wife. I don't think the problem lies in the "outdated concept of marriage" but in the judgment you use in selecting an appropriate partner. No marriage can overcome a bad choice in partner selection.

But, I see that anything I say is going to fall on DEAF ears, because you are committed to "following your heart," and there is nothing I can do or say to help someone who is committed to such folly.

I wish you the best...

JB, I've been putting a lot of thought into what marriage is and should be over the last few months. I live in a society that gives you full "marital" rights, recognition and responsibilities after living together only 6 months. You can claim each other on taxes, benefits, as beneficiaries for pensions etc. You can sign a mortgage together and open a joint account. You can have and raise children together. People will include both of you in invitations to events. You can visit in the hospital when the other is so ill they allow family only. You become each other's next of kin. And when you break up, the law will treat the division of assets, custody and visitation exactly the same way as if you had been married. So really, what is the difference?

But there still is a big difference. I haven't fully worked it out, but I know there is. One thing, for me at least, is the extended family. You don't feel connected to them in the same way if you are living together. Perhaps if your spouse's parents live close by, or brothers and sisters, but not the rest. I actually felt a pang when I didn't receive birthday cards from Wstbx's family this year - even though I don't know most of them very well. It is clear that I am divorcing them as well. I'm sure I would feel that way had we been just living together - even in the same amount of time.

Other differences - you CAN just leave. Sure, the law can be called in and courts can divide your assets but when you walk away, you are still yourself. I have been Mrs. WstbxH for so long. It even says so on my checks (which, BTW, is a royal PIA to try to change). Had we never married, I would have still been just me. I know - men don't typically change their names, but it's more than just the name.

And to elaborate on what ML says about dating being a job interview for marriage. If that's what you are looking for - marriage, that is - then that's exactly what it is. You may also date in attempt to get sex. You may date to get a free dinner. You may date for any possible "perk" of dating. Or you may date to stave off loneliness. While the former reasons are rather shallow, their honest reasons. The latter reason is actually more dangerous because you end up in situations that you are in right now - deep into a relationship that is likely going to end in disaster and heartbreak.

So if you are interviewing her for marraige, she failed. If you aren't interviewing her for marriage, why are you dating/living with her?

Disagree. That would be like doing an engine overhaul on a car you are test driving. Dating is supposed to be a SELECTION PROCESS. If the engine blows up in the test drive, common sense dictates that you don't buy the car. It makes no sense to work on "concepts" if that hurdle is unscalable. This is not a dating site for teenage girls, but a marriage recovery site. There is no marriage here.