Fair enough. Standard stuff:

Key logger on PC/laptop
Voice activated recorder in car
Tap the land line phone
GPS tracker in car
Examination of cellphone for high number of calls and/or texts to/from same number
Examination of email, especially sent folder as many remember to clean intray but forget sent (and waste basket)
Private Investigator

Are you familiar with Plan A?
Do you know what your wife's top ENs are?
Do you know what LBs you commit?

Acx, while it is painful to even remotely think that an affair is involved here, I too was blindsighted..

One of the qualities of my WH that I held in the highest regards was his position on affairs and how much he was against them.

Shame on me! I took that so lightheartedly and felt safe and never questioned WH or picked up on the signs until the damage was done..

So, yes, snoop, and utilize any means/devices just for your own sanity sake.

When I started getting that 'gut feeling' something wasn't right and I questioned WH.. I kept getting the "you're really crazy" responses!

Read, ask questions, we may hate what we hear but we are all here to help one another through what has to be the most difficult times of our lives!

What led to the starting MC in the spring?

Like others I think an A may be invloved, but it sounds like you are trying to verify that. Are you also checking back a few years? She may have had an A or a ONS and ended it.

I guess what I'm leading at is that it is possible for a spouse to just out of the blue tell you they don't love you anymore, but generally they have "felt" that way for a while before they say anything. Additionally, they usually have to "work" themselves up to that conclusion.

When she said 3 weeks ago that she doesn't love you anymore, did you ask how long she has felt that way? Did she feel that way before the MC sessions started? All I'm getting at here is how "rational" is she acting. If she says she has decided that she "never" loved you, then this is usually an irrational statement, suggesting a history rewrite and an A.

Did you ask her what she means by need some space?

We had been having disagreements over our kids, family time, lack of communication between us, and lack of sex, passion and affection for me among other things..... Before that she had suggested MC and I resisted, and then I finally came the conclusion that it was a good idea and we started going.

I didnt ask her directly how long, but she did say that it took her a while to say it. She did not say that she never loved me.

As far as space goes, she said that I was crowding and smothering her, too much affection I guess.

Of course we really do not have the whole picture yet, so it is hard to truly advice, but I wanted to answer to this:


Ok, two things here:

1. If she is having an A, then she wants her "space" to pursue the other relationship. She wants to be able to think about him, without you bugging her. She wants to call him, without you bugging her, etc. And if you should walk into the room while she is quietly talking on the phone, and you later say "who was that?" she will blow up and say "See! that is what I am talking about!! You but into everything I do! I can't have a simple phone conversation without you grilling me about it!!" In which case, you stand there dumb founded.

2. Sometimes, when a spouse senses that the M is in trouble, they get overly clingy, touchy, feely. Do you think this is you?
If you have become even more touchy, feely, desperate, clingy in the past couple of months, then it could be pushing her further away. She could be feeling like she does not have that "loving feeling" right now, but every time you enter the room you are hanging all over her, so she tries to avoid you even more.Which makes you even more nervous.. and the cycle continues.
If you think that may be the case - then you need to back off. Look for nice things you can do for her with ABSOLUTELY NO EXPECTATION of physical intimacy. If you leave flowers on the table for her - just leave them and expect nothing in return. If you pour her coffee in the morning, do it with no expectations. Keep doing these things. And eventually, your actions will speak volumes to her.

I want to point out soemthing to you - we are coming here sharing a lot of personal info, based on very personal experience. People here have been through all of this stuff and more. We are all familiar with key loggers, GPS systems, secretly reading emails, listening to voice mails, etc. We have all snooped before - to find information that we never really wanted to know
And yet when people here ask you what snooping you have done so far, you just answer wtih "I am tech saavy, I have it under control"

Ok, I am sure you are very tech saavy. But the posters here have real life experience with this stuff. if you would just open up a little bit more, share a little bit of what you have done so far, and how it is going, you would get more replies - and better responses. You do not need to share any personal info - we do not want to know your name or where you live! But if you share a little more about what you have done thus far, you may be surprised to find out that someone else will have another suggestion to make your efforts even more succesful.

And, even more important, someone else may read your post and get an idea from you. You are tech saavy - but many of us are not! and you are in a great postion to help other people, by sharing your own expertise.

OK, I hear you. I guess I am just on the paranoid side......

#1 has not been the case, and if she is talking to someone else she is doing a real good job of concealing it.

I would fall into the category of #2. I have been backing off but it has been a struggle for me. I have been giving her flowers, cards, notes etc. regularly and she seems to like it.

Regarding the spy stuff I have a GPS in her car which so far has shown me nothing unusual, checking phone records, and I just put a recorder in the car today. Have been checking her email for a while, and found nothing. I do know that she hates email and does not text, so that doesnt surpise me.

Thanks.

ACX ~ my husband also 'hated' email and texting but those combined with the cellphone were what was used by him and the OW.

My advice to you is not to say anything to you wife about 'policing' her. IF she is doing something, telling her will make them go underground. And if you don't find anything, you can tell her what you did when things get betetr.

It kinda shows :MrEEk:

It sounds like you are doing a lot of the right stuff, and I hate to keep sounding the A alarm - but frankly, your W is walking like a duck and talking like a duck. Know what I mean? (If it soudns like a duck.....it is a duck)

Thing is, if there were no one waiting to drive her away in the getaway car, she would be way more open to reconciling with you. If she were just mad about past issues, and you were bending over backwards to fix what was broken, there would not be much reason to talk D.

What about a neighbor? I think you said she is a SAHM. Some neighbor could be stopping by just to chat during the day. Just friends. Sharing their problems. And after awhile, the friends start to realize that they have a lot in common.....his W doesn't understand him, her H doesn't udnerstand her....
Also - she could have a secret cell phone. I know, hard to beleive.
My ex was not tech saavy, at all. Barely used his cell phone. Did not even sit at the home computer - only used his work computer for email. I knew where he was all the time. he never came home late, etc.
After he left I found out that he met OW through a work related function. They started chatting by phone, at work. They also emailed, only at work. And after a couple of months of that, they went to a Verizon store to get secret cell phones together. And apparantly he learned how to text real fast, because after he left, any time I saw him, he was texting.
He coached younger sons baseball team. I went to every game. As soon as the game was over I would rush home to fix dinner, and he would get home about half an hour later - after he put away the equipment. I found out later that she would show up at the ball field the minute I left. She was always just a friend from work, who happened to be driving by, and wanted to know if they won the game or not.

Honestly, there was NO WAY I would have guessed he was cheating.

How about a voice activated recorder? That is usually a good way to hear converstations on top secret cell phones....

Here is another question. Why do you think she is acting this way? forget her excuses - what does your gut tell you???

She is telling me that we need to work to rebuild our relationship slowly, and although she will not say so, I know she is skeptical that I will change my behavior long term. I also think she is punishing me for some of my past sins but again she will not admit so.

No way it could be a neighbor stopping by, I work at home alot and my hours are all over the place. At least not at our place or in our neighborhood for that matter.

The secret cell phone is always possible, but if that is the case she is hiding it somewhere else. I have looked everywhere.....

I am trying the voice recorder in the car and in the house. If there is something going on that should tell me.

My gut tells me that there isnt someone else and that she wants to work it out. I did alot of stupid stuff and it finally wore her down. I was not sensitive enough to her needs and she was afraid to tell me how she really felt. I think we are both to blame for the lack of communication that hurt our relationship, but I have taken the bullet for that.

AC,

The reason I asked if she was working or a SAHM was not to see how much spare time she has, but where she could have met someone that seems to be supplying her the ENs that you have not and also filling her love bank.

She works 2 or 3 days a week at like an office environment? or retail, or the food industry? How long has she been working?

Is she volunteering much more than she used to? Any cute young teachers there at school?

In the work or the academic environment, working side by side with the opposing gender can be exhilarating for a homebody that has just begun her life outside the home again.

And just because SHE would NEVER EVER do anything like that, there are no good prowling lecherous wolves that know very well how to lure a unsuspecting female into their good graces, with the most carnal intentions. They do this purposefully and with great precision, because this is how they define themselves.

Just a thought.

kirk

She has worked for about a year in a small medical office with a couple of other women and a male doctor who she cant stand......

She has been volunteering about the same amount of time, and the activities involve children so I doubt there is anything going on there.

I doubt there is anything happening at school or work but you never know....

Ok, well you may very well be on the right track with this.

So be sure and read the Harleys books, His Needs, Her Needs, and Fall in Love Stay In love. I also like the book: Divorce Busting, although it is not by the Harleys. However, it is a good compliment to theirs.

the more info you have about men and women and relationships, and how we all view things differntly, the better.

Uh-huh. Have you actually met this guy?

I thought the SAME thing.
Methinks she doth protest too loudly?

Of course, it could be that when I hang out here my affair-radar is pegged.

AC,

""I doubt there is anything happening at school or work but you never know""

All I am saying is that if there IS something going on, it will be someone she met outside the home, probably at work or volunteering and that she is in fairly constant contact with. So if you are going to snoop, give these areas a good looking into.

Of course she volunteers to work with the kids...just take a good look at the male teachers or male volunteers.

Maybe she can't stand the doctor, but what about the patients?

If you tell me the doctor is a gynecologist I will shut up.

kirk

Hit another bump in the road last night. I got upset when she brushed me off when I told her she was special to me and how much I cared for her. This led to another argument and she told me that I still wasnt giving her enough space, that I am around the house too much, always in her face, etc. She said she needs more time alone without me or the kids around, and that even when I am working in my home office that she doesnt feel that she has her space.

Some more old issues came out, and when I asked her why she never said anything before as always she said that she was afraid that I would get mad. One of the things that really frustrates me is that she insists that everything that has gone wrong with our marriage is my fault and she refuses to accept any responsibility.

I have continued to say "yes, you are right, I was wrong" but the fact that she refuses to accept that we were in this together and that she was also a part of the problem, well, that is really starting to wear on me. I did tell her last night that although I accept full responsibility for my actions and have apologized, that I am not going to be a doormat.

Afterwards I realized that I have not been following the advice I have been given and that I have been too clingy, but it is so damn hard not to want to be close. I am trying to be strong, but I cant keep my mind off of her no matter how hard I try.

I am going to try just completely backing off with no physical contact unless she initiates it and see what happens. I am also going to try to stay away from the house as much as possible, and hopefully that will help. Counseling is tomorrow so hopefully that will help.

Two things: First, you shouldn't be getting upset at her for not returning your words of affection. Second, her asking for more 'space' is a bunch of hooey. Don't avoid the house just because she says she needs 'space.' That being said, also don't be clingy, it's not attractive.

I just wanted to weigh in here a second.

I too was the last person anyone would have expected to have an affair, but I did. I taught Sunday School for years, active in the church and frankly looked down at people who committed adultery. I still had an affair.

I also had an affair with someone I "couldn't stand" originally. After we began the affair I rationalized that no one would expect me to have an affair with this person because everyone knew how much we disliked each other. Yeah, right.

Be careful.

AC,

Has she defined "enough space"?

Like.. "don't follow me around the house speaking endearing things to me all the time...do you have to be right up my A$$ every minute!!?"

Or "why don't you not come home for a couple days"..type of space.

I mean if you are in the living room and she is in another part of the house, is that "enough space"?

We have seen many waywards that will say I need my space and then they MOVE OUT to acquire that space, actually filling the space with the other person.

It does not sound like this is what your wife is asking for.

IMHO

kirk