Wow. I can completely relate to her! Well, almost completely. I'm an excellent mother, one of the best IMHO, but I went straight from Dad to big brother raising me when Dad left to abusive, controlling fiance to my now-H. I was never just me.

Even to this day, I still feel like a scared 16 year old. Even today, I feel guilty having a drink or doing something on my own, even having sex! I guess I stalled out in my teen years, and never got to experience life as an adult who made her own decisions. It IS terrifying to live like that. I was just telling someone in Divorced (thread: giving her space and then selling myself) to back off and let his wife start being in charge of things, so that she can get a sense of adulthood.

The best thing you can do is expect more from her, and accept nothing less.

I hope it is not a problem that I can't really relate at all. I think that I made the world where she could stay a kid, but in doing that I had to be an adult. She is also not that psyched to become an adult.

6YL

"She is to eat dinner with the rest of us, every night. Somehow she always skips this."

Wow! How long has WW skipped dinner?

"And no more girls nights or weekends away, she is not sure she is willing to give this up. I'm thinking it will be a condition of staying with me."

This has to be non negotiable. Also frees up WW to provide 15 hours of alone time for the two of you.

Girl nights out no good.
Date nights good for both.
WE's away no good.
Date WE's away good for both.

Road,

She is always at home during dinner but will usually do things like snack before had or go do her hair or something like that. She has always done that, and according to MIL she did that as a child as well.

I'm wondering if this is going to be too hard for her to do. She has alot of time to herself, she seems to need it. She is not IMing or talking on phone or anything. She can barely even type.

6 yrs.

I try not to give advice, but want to share my experience with you. I too had the plan of leaving as soon as my kids were finished raising. I worked on this plan for two years. See Emotional Needs "Internet Affair" and "Fantasy Sex" for more info. I was very bitter towards my H and let my children know I was staying so they would have a father. My plan didn't turn out like I thought. My children are bitter towards me and often tell me things that are hard to hear. They see, hear and feel the problems their father and I have, but in their hearts they want us to work them out, not divorce. since we have started working on our marriage they have ALL had relationship problems that mirror ours. Like us they have invested the time to fix their relationships. I have been amazed at how this worked out. They are regaining their respect for their father and I both through watching us. We discuss, not fight, we talk and Listen. We even write out contracts to sign between each other.

Children Learn What They Live
By Dorothy Law Nolte, Ph.D.


If children live with criticism, they learn to condemn.
If children live with hostility, they learn to fight.
If children live with fear, they learn to be apprehensive.
If children live with pity, they learn to feel sorry for themselves.
If children live with ridicule, they learn to feel shy.
If children live with jealousy, they learn to feel envy.
If children live with shame, they learn to feel guilty.
If children live with encouragement, they learn confidence.
If children live with tolerance, they learn patience.
If children live with praise, they learn appreciation.
If children live with acceptance, they learn to love.
If children live with approval, they learn to like themselves.
If children live with recognition, they learn it is good to have a goal.
If children live with sharing, they learn generosity.
If children live with honesty, they learn truthfulness.
If children live with fairness, they learn justice.
If children live with kindness and consideration, they learn respect.
If children live with security, they learn to have faith in themselves and in those about them.
If children live with friendliness, they learn the world is a nice place in which to live.

Copyright © 1972 by Dorothy Law Nolte

I think we are in a slightly different boat in that my kids are very supportive of me, even if I were to divorce. I have never expressed bitterness toward W but I have allowed her to be basically absent. You are right that the kids are like little clones of me, so they should learn from my mistakes. I can see places where I went wrong in this.

I think you're both underestimating her. I really think counseling would help her a lot. But I also think that, once she starts getting the hang of living like the rest of the women who are mothers/wives, she will enjoy it, and start getting a lot of positive feedback from being more conventional. I think dinner is a great start, but you might segue that into her cooking dinner, her washing up after dinner, her shopping for food, making menus...she'll get into it. IF you make it enjoyable and not drudgery. All of those things are GREAT things for her to do with you and the kids. And it's great stuff for the kids to be doing to learn to take care of themselves later.

6years,

You did not ALLOW your W to be a child. She chose to be a child and since you were willing to do all of the work, she has continued to be a child.

Now that you are getting down to brass tacks, IF she choses to continue to be a child, she WILL lose you, but more importantly she WILL lose the kids. It is her choice. She joins the family and pitches in, OR she remains a child and becomes an orphan. Her children are going to grow up and the one closest to being grown isn't interested being a father figure to his mother, nor a husband figure. I doubt your daughters or sons will be either.

Sounds like counseling went pretty well.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

It went well and it felt alot like a blame Gabe feast to me. W is pretty scared about what it is going to mean to her. I'm surprised I'm not more upset that we have not even discussed the A yet. I feel like we are working on something that could help.

W seems to have thought that once I got over the A, We were just going back to the way it was before. Today she seem to realize that we are never going to do that.

6years,

Counselors do TALK. Get used to it.

Yes things are changing, although in reality they had already changed your W just did not know it, and you didn't know all of the reasons why they had changed.

It will be her call if she wants to become part of the family. If she does not, then you have decisions to make. I think your children have already made their decisions.

I don't know if it is too late to sway them, but it will definitely take your W coming on board with the concept of being a responsible adult and doing her share for OTHER people not just herself.

God Bless,


JL

"She is to eat dinner with the rest of us, every night. Somehow she always skips this."

"She is always at home during dinner but will usually do things like snack before had or go do her hair or something like that. She has always done that, and according to MIL she did that as a child as well."

It prolly isn't anything like this, but I thought I'd ask: does she have an eating disorder, or has she ever had one, or showed signs of one?

Jayne,

No eating disorders, she has always maintained a healthy weight not super thin but healthy.

1) Did I think W had high or low self esteem? My answer is low, compared to mine. I was (unfortunately not true now) the only man she had ever had sex with. Plus we got pregnant before getting married.

I'm confused by this. You were asked about your wife's self esteem and you responded about sex partners and pregnancy. Why is that?

You know that women derive their self esteem from many sources, right? For example: awards/promotions at their job, compliments on their cooking, keeping the home clean, having a nice yard, how active and fit they are, learning new skills, changing their own oil, putting up wall paper, being asked for advice, getting a solo in the church choir, sewing her own clothes, canning her own food... the list is endless.

I'd be surprised if her self esteem hinges much on how many sex partners she's had or whether or not she was pregnant when you married. She may be ashamed that you're no longer her one and only, and she may have been or still be embarrassed that she was a pregnant bride, but I don't really see that either of those would be sources of high or low self esteem for her.

Turtle,

I was pointing out that it may have damaged her self esteem to get pregnant out of wedlock. And then when that happened I handled it well and took charge, she was hysterical. Not really about the sex thing but I agree it reads that way.

Okay, that makes sense in that you were focusing on her self esteem compared to your own, and tying it in with how you each dealt with the pregnancy/marriage/parenthood. You moved forward with purpose, and she sort of came unglued.

Given that you were supposed to be focusing on the time before the A, it makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the response.

Turtle,

We are focusing on the time before the A. Currently we are planning that W will start having dinner with the rest of the family tonight. She is going to help D16 make dinner tonight, I'm not going to help. We will see how that goes.

It feels a little like we are ignoring the elephant in the room with the A but we are going to start talking about that at the next session. W still won't agree to no more girls nights and weekends away, but I am standing firm. It may be unreasonable but I have told her that if she goes on another one then she should not bother to come home. Maybe I will have a different stance later but she has told me that it is important for her to be a mom and I am dealing with alot of crap to give her a chance., so for now that is my boundary.

Right now for me, if she can't work on the mom stuff then I would just as soon see her leave for good.

6:

About this:


That's good. Let her do what she thinks SHE should be doing.

Then this:


No, your not. Somebody, (the MC), is able to speak to you and her. In person, and offered a PLAN. That paln is to look into the M prior to the A to find out what was going wrong, and what to fix. You know MUCH about the A. You need more, I'm sure. But its time to follow the plan of the MC. If you let us know how the MC is going, we can tell you if you need to throw the red flag.

And this:


Excellent boundary.

Excellent progress so far.

LG

6,
Has your W read any of the materials on the site such as Trueheart's letter?

W of 6,

There is one really important thing you need to get here. Every time you go off and do a girls night out or weekend away, you are stabbing your H in the heart. You are rubbing his face in your "need" to be independent. This independent, selfish "me time" is an absolute barrier to recovering a happy marriage.It is your independent and selfish attitude of entitlement that led to your affair. You absolutely must get rid of it to be capable of being in an adult relationship.

You can choose to stop hurting your H. The time away from your M and home responsibilities is not something you "need." It is absolutely killing your M.

I understand you can't fully see or believe this right now. I am telling you that you should give these things up and devote the time instead to happy recreational time WITH your husband and kids. You will see a world of difference. Stop escaping and you will soon see that your escaping was causing many of your own problems.

Chrysalis,

Dinner went ok. D16 chose a large salad with grilled chicken. Pretty easy so prep was not too difficult. W sat and ate with us but it was awkward.

After dinner, W was trying to negotiate about the girls nights and weekends. I calmly said it is not happening. Then she said maybe she should take some time away and learn how to be a grown up. I said your kids are growing up now, this is not practice. She said she thinks she needs to live alone to learn. She thinks we can date and still have SF but she would live by herself and take care of herself.

I kind of lost it at this and I told her to go ahead and move out then she will never be a mother to the kids and I will file for D the day she leaves. She said she doesn't know what to do. I said try working hard at something for once in your life. She went down stairs to sleep so first night on the new bed is alone for me.

I'll call the MC tomorrow.

6, have we discussed her childhood before? The more you tell us, the more I feel like there's something wrong with her.

It's possible she's saying she needs to live alone because trying to live up to your expectations is just too hard. But it's also possible that her odd behaviors like not eating with you, and having to go out with friends all the time and the inability to grow up or be responsible are signs of some sort of mental illness.

Just something to consider.