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:crosseyedcrazy: I sent the definition to help you get your head wrapped around the idea that you did abuse Lil' and you need to step outside of all the rationalizing that prevents you from accepting this. Well guess what!? I did abuse her, I finally get it, and do you know what made me finally understand? I thought back in time to a time early in our relationship, a time when the boot was on the other foot and I realised that I felt abused by her actions and therefore I must have done the same to her, in fact I probably did more as my A was much later in our relationship and also lasted for longer. I'm curious. Have you made face to face amends to your wife and children for all the lies and deceit and yes, abuse?
Have you gone back to all family and friends and exonerated your wife from any of the blame for YOUR A?
This is called cleaning up the wreckage of YOUR past. It is a step in the recovery process that shouldn't be overlooked. Basicaly the answer is yes.
Flick
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Flick,
I gotta tell you, I care very deeply for your W and always have felt a strong connection to her. She and I have spent many nights holding each other up and I am so happy for her and this chance.
I have watched you come here, take your lumps, walk away, but then come back and take the lumps and change.
Thank you for that.
She deserves the best and when you look at your stuff and own it, you are giving her the best.
BS 52, FWH 53, Married 1-1-84 D-day 5-14-07, WH moved in with OW Plan A 9 months, DARK Plan B 3-17-08 until 3-2-09 WH and OW broke up 1-09 Started over 7-09
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Well guess what!? I did abuse her, I finally get it, and do you know what made me finally understand? I thought back in time to a time early in our relationship, a time when the boot was on the other foot and I realised that I felt abused by her actions and therefore I must have done the same to her, in fact I probably did more as my A was much later in our relationship and also lasted for longer. Flick, Lil did not abuse you. She broke up with you and started a new relationship. She was single and had every right to. You, however, didn't respect her boundaries, showed up unannounced, entered her flat, and saw something that was none of your business. Witnessing that, I am sure, caused you great pain. But THAT was not abuse. on a scale of 0-10 Her abuse toward you = .01 /Both single and broken up. Your abuse from adultery = 10 /married and YOU CHEATED. This is just another example of you refusing to acknowledge the pain you have caused to the woman you vowed to forsake all others for. It is you, yet again, rationalizing and minimizing what you've done.
Recovery began 10/07;
Meeting my wife's EN's is my "thank you" that refuses to be silenced.
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Guilt and shame are not the same things. Shame is what you feel when you know other people are aware of what you've done. Guilt is something you feel even if no one else knows about what you've done. Not according to my dictionary. I stand by what I said. The WS dictionary? You can stand by it all you want, but it doesn't make it true.
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Guilt and shame are not the same things. Shame is what you feel when you know other people are aware of what you've done. Guilt is something you feel even if no one else knows about what you've done. Not according to my dictionary. I stand by what I said. The WS dictionary? You can stand by it all you want, but it doesn't make it true. shame (shm) n. 1. a. A painful emotion caused by a strong sense of guilt, embarrassment, unworthiness, or disgrace. b. Capacity for such a feeling: Have you no shame? 2. One that brings dishonor, disgrace, or condemnation. 3. A condition of disgrace or dishonor; ignominy. 4. A great disappointment. no mention of other people having to know anything.
Flick
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It's semantics anyway.
Guilt, shame - I think WS's feel both. My wife did. She knew what she was guilty of and was ashamed with herself for what she did.
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW) D-Day August 2005 Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23 Empty Nesters. Fully Recovered.
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Well guess what!? I did abuse her, I finally get it, and do you know what made me finally understand? I thought back in time to a time early in our relationship, a time when the boot was on the other foot and I realised that I felt abused by her actions and therefore I must have done the same to her, in fact I probably did more as my A was much later in our relationship and also lasted for longer. Flick, Lil did not abuse you. She broke up with you and started a new relationship. She was single and had every right to. You, however, didn't respect her boundaries, showed up unannounced, entered her flat, and saw something that was none of your business. Witnessing that, I am sure, caused you great pain. But THAT was not abuse. on a scale of 0-10 Her abuse toward you = .01 /Both single and broken up. Your abuse from adultery = 10 /married and YOU CHEATED. This is just another example of you refusing to acknowledge the pain you have caused to the woman you vowed to forsake all others for. It is you, yet again, rationalizing and minimizing what you've done. Strange that you are saying one thing to me and Lil says another. Which one of you is talking BS? STOP POSTING MATERIAL FROM HER THREAD ON MY THREAD. We do not read each others threads and it is not your place to run around spreading parts of our posts. Thanks for having no faith in what I say.
Flick
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It's semantics anyway.
Guilt, shame - I think WS's feel both. My wife did. She knew what she was guilty of and was ashamed with herself for what she did. Bigkahuna, where have you been? thought you must have gone bush:) . I agree it is semantics (great album, Aussie Crawl, remember?). How's the drought? You are in Oz eh? Things are going great here, I feel like Lil and I are making some big steps toward getting things sorted out at the moment, some people seem to think that it is all fog and nonsence, but Lil has not told me that so we are happy. Obviously still got a long way to go but we are getting there. I'm away from home tonight and I just want to go home to be with her, I spent too long away from her and now each extra day away is a day I could do with out. Hopefully only one more trip to this place to sort outt he house before I rent it and start getting some income from it. Really has been hard sorting out all of the things here, it was my foster fathers house until he passed away. Any way Lil is on MSN so I'm going to talk to her
Flick
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Hi Flick - my work is seriously cutting into my online time and I've also enrolled in a Masters degree part time. fun fun fun.
I've been away for work a lot and you post so infrequently it seems. LOL.
We are on the Central Coast just North of Sydney. Our water situation seems to have eased somewhat.
If you use MSN and want to chat, drop me a line and I'll give you my ID.
Last edited by bigkahuna; 10/01/08 03:44 AM.
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW) D-Day August 2005 Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23 Empty Nesters. Fully Recovered.
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Hi Flick - my work is seriously cutting into my online time and I've also enrolled in a Masters degree part time. fun fun fun.
I've been away for work a lot and you post so infrequently it seems. LOL.
We are on the Central Coast just North of Sydney. Our water situation seems to have eased somewhat.
If you use MSN and want to chat, drop me a line and I'll give you my ID. ( BK, got the email addy, you can edit it out if you wish. Hey, hope it all goes well with the Masters. You are right I don't post all that often, I have never been much of a writer, half of my family go from one Christmas to the next wondering if I am still walking on the earth or been drowned at sea (or some other intersting death, I'm not going to have a normal death far to common ) Will contact you when I get back to the farm. Cheers
Flick
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The following is a passage from NOT "Just Friends" by Shirley P. Glass about the difference between guilt and shame and why it's important: Guilt and Shame It's important not to confuse guilt with shame. Guilt is felt even if nobody else knows about the transgression. In the movie City Slickers, Billy Crystal's character turned down the idea of a fail-safe sexual affair. "It doesn't matter if nobody else would know. I'd know, and I wouldn't like myself." Shame is a reaction to external consequences that occurs when caught doing something "bad." When President Clinton apologized to the American public after many denials of infidelity, he discussed feeling shame but didn't mention feeling guilt. It appears that he regretted his actions after the fact because of their consequences.
Guilt Guilt works as a deterrent for extramarital involvement only when you perceive it before you act. After noticing the first tugs of attraction, anticipatory guilt helps to frame the consequences of your impulses, pulls you back from the edge, and keeps you from acting on your desires. After a wrongful act, wallowing in self-recrimination can serve as a way to avoid changing your inappropriate behavior. Allow yourself to feel guilty for five minutes only. Then it's time to take responsibility for reparation.
We have learned something interesting about who is likely to feel guilty and who is not. People who purposely set out to be unfaithful are usually guilt-free beforehand and afterward. Those who fall accidentally or unintentionally are more inclined to feel guilty. Because the new crisis of infidelity is about people getting swept away by "friendship affairs," we can expect genuine remorse from these unintentional betrayers.
Shame Shame doesn't deter infidelity in the first place, and a shamed response to being caught doesn't guarantee abstinence in the future. In fact, shame can generate a cycle that makes recurrence even more likely. For Donald, this shame cycle was powerful enough to become a compulsive pattern of Internet affairs. After his wife, Daphne, exposed his e-lovers, he felt ashamed. He told her, "I feel terrible. I know I've been bad. I'll try to do better." Although his feelings were genuine, they were all about him and how bad he felt. He wasn't able to empathize with his wife's pain because he was too self-absorbed. To escape from his misery, Donald turned once again to distract himself—in an Internet chatroom.
Donald and Daphne believed that his self-flagellation was a sign of rehabilitation. They didn't realize that shame frequently perpetuates the undesirable behavior. Shame is centered on the self. To heal the wound in his marriage, Donald had to stop the self-pity, take responsibility for what he had done, and enter more into Daphne's world.
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Strange that you are saying one thing to me and Lil says another. Which one of you is talking BS?
STOP POSTING MATERIAL FROM HER THREAD ON MY THREAD. We do not read each others threads and it is not your place to run around spreading parts of our posts.
Thanks for having no faith in what I say. Flick, I spend time posting to waywards in an effort to help them be accountable for their words, and actions. And in hopes of helping their M I read and post to betrayed spouses in an effort to help them see the Bullsh!t that their wayward or FWW is attempting to feed them. Now you want to accuse me of spreading gossip? I guess you don't understand this, but when I comment on YOUR thread, I am speaking directly to YOU about things YOU have posted and issues YOU have already spoken about or lived with Lil'. You almost had Lil' believing that what you experienced while dating was the same abuse that she experienced. You even caused several readers to ask her if she had an affair by claiming ("I thought back in time to a time early in our relationship, a time when the boot was on the other foot and I realised that I felt abused by her actions") and you expected that to just be glossed over without comment. I don't think so. I was attempting to hold YOU accountable and YOU didn't like it one bit. If all you want is someone to hold your hand and blow smoke up your a$$, then I believe you are on the wrong forum. You left critical information out of your posts and expected me to "just take your word for it". You forget I know you, just as I know myself it's the same type of Bullsh!t I was guilty of trying to get my wife and others to constantly buy into. You just think you're unique. You're not. Then you say, "Thanks for having no faith in what I say". What do you expect? It's as if you want an apology from me for YOUR behavior. And that's the same attitude I still see in you toward Lil'
Recovery began 10/07;
Meeting my wife's EN's is my "thank you" that refuses to be silenced.
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The following is a passage from NOT "Just Friends" by Shirley P. Glass about the difference between guilt and shame and why it's important: Thanks for that most intersting post. I see the point you are trying to make, and I agree with what you are saying. The problem is that I speak ENGLISH and you speak AMERICAN and we use the language in different ways. To debate this further would just be fairly pointless as we are both correct. I hope you understand the idea that I am trying to put across.
Flick
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Flick,
I spend time posting to waywards in an effort to help them be accountable for their words, and actions. And in hopes of helping their M I read and post to betrayed spouses in an effort to help them see the Bullsh!t that their wayward or FWW is attempting to feed them. TST I get the impression that you do no think I have made much progress at all in the weeks scince I returned home to Lil and my children, fair enough you can think what you want. It also seems that anytime i try to make progress someone will shoot me down and say that I am wrong or that I am looking for an appology. I don't need any appology, not from Lil and not from you. If you have no faith in what I say then what is the point of me posting anything? I may as well just type a load of lies and trickery, that seems to be what you think anyway. If you think I have left details out of my posts why do you not ask for more detail? BTW I am not a great fan of sitting in front of the computer typing long posts. The few long posts I have sent are not normal for me. I don't know what else to say to you. It is not easy to deal with a person who is unwilling to believe what I say.
Flick
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It's as if you want an apology from me for YOUR behavior. And that's the same attitude I still see in you toward Lil' Tst Can you explain this please? What is it that you are seeing that I am not?
Flick
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I see the point you are trying to make, and I agree with what you are saying. The problem is that I speak ENGLISH and you speak AMERICAN and we use the language in different ways. Give me a break. How come I understood it and agree with it? Yes, Americans might say "confectioner's sugar" and we might say "icing sugar" etc etc but the example from Shirley Glass was not in that realm of American/English misunderstandings.
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Dear All,
Regarding the on-going debate of shame vs guilt.
Flick and I have had a talk. The out come of that is he regrets his affair. He feels bad for making me unhappy. He wants to do anything to make up for it. He would feel this way even if no one else knew what he had done. He feels more and more shame/guilt everyday and believes it will continue to grow as he comes to a deeper realisation of the pain his actions caused to his wife and children. He does not think that the pain he felt from my fling at all compares with what he has done. He was just trying to explain he understood why it was considered abuse. He says he has tried to express this, but it seems to have been overlooked as there is more focus on the actual 'turn of phrase'.
I believe he feels the emotions that people want him to and will continue to do so. What it's called is now just pedantics.
Can this particular subject now be closed?
Lil
Recovered marriage, recovering self, life gets better everyday
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I see the point you are trying to make, and I agree with what you are saying. The problem is that I speak ENGLISH and you speak AMERICAN and we use the language in different ways. Give me a break. How come I understood it and agree with it? Yes, Americans might say "confectioner's sugar" and we might say "icing sugar" etc etc but the example from Shirley Glass was not in that realm of American/English misunderstandings. You have missed the point. All I am saying is that my definition of shame is slightly different to the american definition for the same word (and apparantly the definition you choose to use). Yes my definition comes out of a real dictionary and I am sure that the other posters definition comes out of his dictionary. In fact both definitions are correct in in english and american as far as I can make out. We just applied a different (but equally legitimate) meaning for the same word. Finally I would like to point out that I agreed with the Shirley Glass article, never said a word against it. The horse is dead, stop beating it.
Flick
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Whew, glad that one is over..............
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Whew, glad that one is over.............. Me too.
Flick
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