Hi
I don't really know what to say.

For the last six months I have been having an affair with a woman who I met at work, today I left her and returned home to my wife (for the second time). The first time i returned home I did not think it was important to stop all contact with the OW. Now I can see that it is very important.
I know that i am very lucky to have a wife who is prepared to give me another chance, and I am going to make the most of it this time.
I just wrote a letter to the OW saying that all contact would stop as of right now.
Although I say i have returned home I am not actually staying in the family home as my wife has not invited me to come back to the house, I guess she wants me to prove myself first.
What should I do now to 1) prove myself to my wife and 2) to prevent the affair restarting. Is there anything I can do to make this process of rebuilding my marriage a little easier? Yes I know it is going to take time and be hard work but does anyone have any helpful hints?

Thanks
Fatty

Why did you have an affair? Why did you stop the affair?

I think you should invite your wife to post here. She's in pain and probably can use some support and advice from people here.

Hi Fatty, I'm an FWW. (Former wandering wife).

It's very nice to have a WS on here who is looking to prove himself and looking for answers. If you are willing to do the work, it is really worth it. My A was after 28 years of marriage. It was 6 years ago and we are now very, very happy and very, very recovered.

To prove yourself to your wife, you need to be trustworthy. She isn't going to believe you are trustworthy for quite some time. My H checked up on me for a long time - he even wondered where I was when I went to get a DVD or was late home from work. I always tried to put his mind at rest. I let him have access to my email, to my cellphone bills, everything. Yes, it felt awful but I couldn't really expect anything less. I'd been sneaking around for 18 months wihthout him knowing - that was one of the worst parts of all for him, that I'd been quite normal at home but was really a completely different person, one very capable lies and cheating.

To prevent the affair restarting (been there, done that too), NC for life is essential. It is the most powerful tool for waywards there is. It takes away temptation, it proves to your BS that you are genuine and, eventually, the OP just fades from your memory.

You have a long, hard road ahead of you. It all takes time. Your wife will be very wary of you. No one wants to suffer that sort of hurt again. It's been likened to losing a child and my H said that is just how it felt for him.

I had an affair because my wife was not spending enough time with me and spending too much time on her work, and I did not recognise the problem. The OW started out as just a friend and then just after Christmas it all went very wrong, I had been trying to support OW through a difficult time in her life and ended up getting too close. It all seems very obvious now, I wish I had seen the mistake I was making by spending time alone with the OW.
I ended the affair because I could see how much i was hurting my children and I could see how much i had too loose. I just wish i had followed the rule about no contact the first time i came back home, it would have (maybe) saved the affair from restarting. Also I ended the affair because I saw the OW for who she really is, she is not the sort of person that I would normaly assoiciate with.

And my wife has been on MB for the last 5 or 6 months, so in that regard she is one step ahead of me, it was her who told me to post here.

Thanks
Fatty

*link* to how the wayward get that way

it's long - read it twice

and welcome

we love the fact that you are here

Pep

Hmmmmm, "I had an affair because my wife was not spending enough time with me and spending too much time on her work.."

Actually you had an affair because you chose to have an affair. That's one of the first things you'll learn here. My justifications were "My H had withdrawn from me, my old boyfriend was my soulmate, etc etc". All complete rubbish. My own immaturity, lack of boundaries and selfishness caused me to have an A.

I had to look very deep inside me after the A and I didn't like what I saw.

*link* to a video

when you're tired of reading - watch this ( this will take 30 minutes or so)

it's gonna hurt - but that's part of getting over your adultery

Pep

t/j - Hey Pep, long time no see - end t/j

*link* to why "sorry" is not enough

when you're done learning all this stuff - you're going to be so well informed --- and we can help you apply what you've learned to your situation

Pep

You're looking good Jen

Welcome to marriagebuilders, and go glad that you decided to post here. There is a lot of information here that will let you and your wife recover and even have a much better marriage than before. That is the whole point, because there were probably some things that needed working on and that left the door open for an affair.

It is not an excuse for an affair, because that was your choice.

It is good that you have ended contact with the other woman. It may be very difficult at first, but after you go through withdrawal (almost like withdrawal from a drug), it will get easier. One day you will be very thankful that you stayed with your wife and family.

Even though you may still think the other woman needs you and is a good woman, good women DON'T get friendly with married men.
It could be that she made you feel needed and so you fell into the affair. But your wife and family are the ones who really need you.

You might start thinking about what tools you will use to get through withdrawal and how you will keep from contacting the OW.

You can start with apologizing to your wife and being remorseful. Your apologies should never be followed with a but, for example do NOT say "I'm sorry I hurt you, but you neglected me". Just say you are sorry and leave the but out.

Also in your no contact letter to OW, do not worry one bit about if the OW is hurt by the letter. All you need to worry about is how much you have hurt your wife and family. The OW knew you were married, she is not an innocent victim, she is a predator and danger to your family.

You have a lot of work ahead of you and you need to be consistent and do not get impatient and think your wife should just get over it. It is going to take years for your wife and family to recovery from this.

Have you done absolutely everything you can to avoid any contact with her including changing your email address and phone? Are you still working with her?


What's her user name here?

Be willing to be completely honest and open about every area of your life. It's going to be very difficult for your wife, so be prepared for that.

TryingtoLetitGo, that is very good advice. My H AND my MC told me that I followed everything I said with "but". Our MC said that saying "but..." completely negates everything that went before it. It's like saying "those are very smart, gorgeous pants....BUT your butt looks huge in them."

guess what Fatty - you and OW were both same "the sort of person" ...

You are not "better" than OW - not yet

don't let this stop you from climbing out of your self-dug hole

hang in there Fatty - hang in there

Pep

I posted this to your wife, so I will post it to you to - it is from the Harleys -

It's very common for the spouse having the affair to feel unremorseful. And it's common for the victimized spouse to feel that it wasn't his or her fault, either. So when an affair has ended, and a couple is ready to rebuild their relationship, neither wants to take responsibility. They both look at each other as having been very selfish, and they look at themselves as having gone the extra mile, with nothing to show for it. Why apologize for something that was the other person's fault?

There is a sense in which an apology is not really necessary. The only thing that's necessary is for the couple to take appropriate steps to rebuild their relationship. But an apology can certainly make taking those steps much easier.

S.C.'s wife is not sorry she had an affair. In fact she feels that it did her some good. She "finally did something for herself." That sure sounds like her Taker, doesn't it (if you don't know what a "Taker" is, be sure to read "The Giver and the Taker" in my Basic Concepts). Her Taker is only concerned about her happiness, and not the least bit concerned about S.C.'s happiness. It was her Taker that was doing the talking for her, telling S.C. that he had it coming, after what he had put her through with all of his drinking.

Taker's don't ever apologize. But they demand it of others. It was S.C.'s Taker that wanted an apology from his wife. It remembered that S.C.'s Giver had once told his wife he was sorry for his neglect of her while he was drinking, and now it was time for his wife to apologize for her offense. But at this point in their relationship, neither of their Givers are anywhere to be found, so there is little hope for repentance.

But now that the affair is over, does it do S.C. any good to try to pry an apology out of his wife? At this point, her feelings for S.C. are not the best, and any effort on his part to try to make her feel guilty will do nothing but withdraw more love units from an already bankrupt Love Bank. His best approach is to ignore the past, and focus on what he can do to start depositing love units. The more love units he deposits, the more her Taker will drop back and allow her Giver some room to maneuver. In fact, if her Giver shows up, she may surprise S.C. with an apology for the affair without him even asking for one.

S.C.'s best course of action is to create the best marriage possible by learning how to meet his wife's emotional needs, overcome Love Busters and create a unified lifestyle where neither of them would have second secret lives that can grow into affairs.

But in spite of what I've just said, I encourage each spouse, if possible, to override their Takers' instincts and apologize to the other anyway. The unfaithful spouse should apologize for having betrayed a valuable trust, for having hurt in the worst way possible the very one he or she promised to love and cherish. The victimized spouse should also apologize for having failed to meet important emotional needs that the unfaithful spouse had been promised at the time of marriage.

Why do I encourage an apology when the Takers are adamantly opposed to offering them? Because an apology is really in order (they did, in fact, hurt each other), and it also helps settle down the Takers, as long as they both apologize. S.C.'s wife knows that she did the wrong thing when she had an affair. It's her defensive Taker that will not let her apologize. But if she could let her defenses down for one moment and honesty express her Giver's regret for what she had done, it would give S.C. some encouragement.

But once apologies are made, a couple should move on to the business of rebuilding their relationship, and not dwell on the mistakes of their past. As much as you may want to talk about the affair or about any other mistake made, remember that every conversation on those subjects withdraw love units. And a Love Bank must first be overflowing with love units before you are in a position to waste any.

Totally off subject but I have to know, before I say anything else, because it disturbs me and maybe won't once I hear the reason...why did you chose the name Fatty?

Fatty,
Its good that you are posting here, and I think you will find the help that you need. Its mainly betrayed spouses here, but if you come with a humble heart and a desire to repair the damage you caused, you will get great advice. Come with a foggy mind and justifications, and you will get some 2x4s to the head.

One of the first things you need to change in your thinking is that you have to take complete responsibility for the affair. Your wife is responsible for 50% of the state of the marriage, but it was 100% your choice to have an affair. It simply isn't possible for her to be even partially responsible for a choice she had no input into. There are a number of ways to resolve conflict and problems in a marriage, but infidelity is nowhere on that list. It only creates more problems and potentially irreparable damage.

Recovery from infidelity is basically three-pronged. First you have your marital recovery. This is where you identify what made your marriage vulnerable to the affair. You start spending at least 15 hours of time together each week, identifying each other's emotional needs and meeting them, etc...
The second part is your BW's personal recovery. She has to learn to trust and love you again. You need to confess all details of the affair (that she decides she wants to know), become completely transparent to her, account for all your time, and end all contact with the OW (yes, this means leaving your job if you work together).
The third part is your personal recovery. You have some serious introspection to do to find out why you chose to have an affair rather than to engage in a healthy manner of conflict resolution. What were your boundaries? Did you have any? What did the OW appeal to in you, that allowed you to succumb to the temptation of the affair? What did you tell yourself to justify your behavior? What behaviors of yours made the OW think that approaching you in this way was ok?

You see, without identifying these factors, you cannot put new boundaries in place to prevent it from happening again. You will almost definitely be tempted again, and you need to be able to draw the line early and clearly.

Not "maybe", Fatty. I can assure you that if you had never had contact with her again, the affair would not have resumed. Do not allow yourself to mistakenly believe that a little bit of contact will do no harm or that you can somehow manage it. You can't... you have already proven that to yourself and your wife.

The only way the affair was possible is because you two were in contact/communication. The only way to protect yourself from the temptation and your wife from the pain is to never have contact with her again...never... never ever... period.

So if you met her at work, can you describe how you have ended all contact and any potential chance of contact?

Welcome to Marriage Builders.

she's NOT going to give you another chance. YOU have to earn another chance. IF you hurt her again, rest assured that YOU will likely lose your entire family forever.



That remains to be seen. BUT, I must say, you are NOT getting off to a stellar start by failing to take total and complete responsibility for what you have done. YOU had an affair because of a lack of character and morals on your part. YOU chose to screw another woman and that makes you both (you and the OW) the lowest of the low. YOU can change. But you need to accept what and why you had an affair.

And why are you so intimidated by strong, capable women? Look deep inside and figure that out. Are you really a weak man? Most likely the answer is yes...so what are you going to do to change?


How did you abuse your wife? Have you EVER hit her?

she's so far ahead of you right now that she is but a speck on the horizon.


well, you better hope your wife doesn't share your attitude. YOU are that type of person. YOU put another woman ahead of your wife and family. How much lower can the OW be? You are her.

Change.

Life will be so much better for you if you commit to ONE thing.

Develop and make a part of your life an absolute commitment to the truth. Live an honest life and things will improve quickly and dramatically.

Lie and expect disaster.

Consider starting with a clean slate by offering your wife two gifts. One, take a polygraph so that all historical issues are put to rest. Two, sign a post nuptial agreement that affords your wife anything she wants in the event of another affair.

In other words, put your money where your mouth is.

Fatty, do you still work with the OW?

Fatty,

I note that your primary reasons for ending the affair include how much you were hurting your children and how much YOU had to lose. Maybe you're not yet ready to forgive your wife for her failure to meet your needs, but I hope you will spend some time dwelling on how your "solution" to that problem was to destroy everything your wife believed was good and holy, leaving her traumatized and bleeding. And how very poorly your punishment fit her crime.

Everyone here has given you excellent advice. Pay special attention to what Andrew posted--he is dead on.

Since you have just ended the affair, it is critical that you have absolutely NO contact with the affair partner you now see as someone you would "never associate with." Pepperband nailed it when she said that YOU have been the kind of person you would never associate with. Can you see that? You have been the kind of person your WIFE would never associate with--and she has had no choice about the kind of person you chose to be for the past 6 months. Your job now is to convince her that you are no longer that dangerous, violent stranger who tore her apart, and that is going to take herculean effort on your part. Are you in for the long haul?

If you are truly ready to be the man you and your wife can respect, and it sounds like you are, please hear and heed what so many who've gone before have to say. They will not steer you wrong here. I applaud you for reaching out. Now it's time to get down to work.

Fatty,

I applaud you for being here. It is very rare to get a WH on these boards.

I'll forewarn you that you will get many 2x4s slapped upside your head on these forums. The vast majority are meant to grab your attention and force you to look inwards. Looking inside at our own flaws is a difficult process, but it's a critical one for you to go through. You're getting great advice.

The biggest one is to take complete ownership for what you did and make sure to never, ever say, "I'm sorry, but...."

If your BW feels hurt and rants and vents, then let her and be understanding. A WS doesn't really understand the intencity of the emotions surrounding the betrayal. These are storms you need to weather and it will be tough because you won't be able to predict or forsee the triggers. It can be as simple as a movie sitting on a shelf, a location, or a song. Little things can be huge triggers for the BS.

So the key words for you right now are openness, empathy, and patience. It's a long road to walk.

Best of luck.

Have you thought of how you are going to handle it when the OW attempts to contact you?

It would be best to change your phone numbers, stop her from getting on any internet social sites that you have, and let friends know that you want no messages from her. Usually the OW will continue attempting contact. And that is expecially true if you have given her money.

hi fatty,
read "what.how to heal" in the general discussion that is me. i started this today. i will talk to him about this. i hope he too also joins here. as a bs im proud of you being here.
good luck

Hi Fatty,

That's a good name, I had an uncle named FAT. (Francis Aloysius T)I never knew his real name until I was 14 yrs.old. But your name made me smile thinking of him.

Welcome to Marriage Builders!

I think I darn near could have written your posts. Been there done that! I hope you stick around. These folks helped me save my marriage and saved my life. I received a few 2X4's upside the head in the process, but they kept me on track.

I'm wondering if you gave the No-Contact letter to your wife to read and for her to mail or ???
You also mentioned you met this other woman at work, so does she work with you or ???
You say your wife is posting here, what's her user name ???

Start with these few things and some of the questions others are asking you. You will be amazed how much help is available if you are willing to be open and honest.

I picked the name Fatty for no real reason, you could say I am a fat head for having an affair (and you would be right). I am not over weight but I certainly am heavier than my wife.

No I do not work for that company anymore and the OW has also left there, also she moved to another town (about 4 hours drive). So there is little chance of seeing her again unless I make an effort to see her, AND THAT AIN'T IN MY PLAN!!!


Fatty

BRAVO to you! Now, use that as your mantra and you should do great. Congrats for coming here and putting yourself out there for help. It's impressive.

So, let's get down to business. Tell us what happened, and what your marriage was like before. What's it like now?

**EDIT**

Now just to be clear, I am serious about making good on repairing my relationship with my wife. I do know that I chose to have an affair and that it is totally my fault.

Fatty

Fatty - You need to understand that many of us on here have had our lives turned upside down by someone just like you. We've had to send our children to counseling, we've had to watch our children cry for their dad, and it's not a pretty sight. So, I do applaud you for coming on here because it will probably be pretty rough at first. However, I think in the long run you could do a lot of good and maybe help others.

Gee Fatty....imagine someone thinking it might have happened. In my experience, people that verbally abuse their spouse are a risk for hittng them also. Since the word abuse did not originate from me...but from the person you have abused, I think the question was in order.

It's a nice little wayward ploy to deflect attention with anger...so go ahead. I have seen it before.

So, how about that polygraph and post nuptial agreement sport?




That's a start.

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Fatty, we have an ignore button for people you don't want to hear from.

Did you read some of the articles on the main site? I found them very helpful.

NC really is the answer.

I don't have any advice as such - I just wanted to lend my support.

yes, there you go...encourage a WS to ignore some things that could help his wife. Good job Jen.

LOL, there was a time when you could have upset me, MEDC, but not any more.

Do you know what it's like trying to get a kiwi guy to talk? The very fact he's here is amazing.

I read a letter he wrote his BW, and it was quite expressive.

sounds like a wonderful bunch of people.

I think it is amazing too. I think he is the one who thought we were all crazy.

You've gone too far now MEDC.

How DARE you criticise my country. A country you know NOTHING about.

Hmmmm, isn't that interesting. You knew just which button to push to make me see red. Verrrrrry interesting.

What country are you and your husband from?

well, actually, based on your observation of kiwi men, I guess I know something now....hence, the comment.

I know people have different approaches, but imagine being a WS and posting here. It would be helpful to have some tricks to get through withdrawal, some coping mechanisms, some encouragement, and less disparaging remarks about Kiwi men.

I agree with believer. Less negative, more positives.

**EDIT**

Sorry if I defended your thread in any way. With your angry outburst here online - cussing and calling names - you have a LOT of work to do on yourself!

Fatty,

Have you called the counseling center? This could be a great place to get started, and it is YOU taking the lead. Have you sat down with pen and paper and begun the process of looking inward to answer questions about why you believe you were vulnerable to the affair? What do you think you need to begin working on?

Most of all, I think it's important right now that you find ways, on your own, without being prompted, of making your wife feel safe. The passwords are a good start. If you have any facebook, myspace, blogs, etc, have you deleted them?

This is tough stuff, Fatty, but it comes with the biggest reward.

Let's keep it respectful and helpful, please. Its ok to disagree, its not ok to cuss out and call names!

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--... ...--

Fatty

Fatty, thanks for answering my earlier questions.

But you missed the one where I asked what your wife's username is. Could you tell me who she is here on MB?

I wanted to offer some suggestions to you. Some of the first things that you need to do to ensure no contact are simple but necessary. BTW, these are all actions I took to demonstrate that what I said was what I meant.

I would recommend you begin by changing your cell phone number, your home number, possibly your work phone number, and all of your email addresses. Close any online account like MySpace, Facebook, Classmates, etc. where OW could contact you.

Next, all passwords for cell phones, emails, work, etc. need to be written down and given to your wife.

I would recommend that next you put pen to paper and make a list of the people you have harmed and lied to during your A. Quickly approach these people and expose the truth to them and ask for their support for your wife and your marriage.

I did a lot more than this, but this is a good place to start. Let me know what you think. Are you willing to do these things?

**EDIT**

You're losing your focus and purpose here. You're here to save your marriage and not here to counter-attack other posters.

Can you just read those "attacks" and respond to the positive posts? Your getting angry is not going to help you, your wife, and your marriage. It can only do damages to them.

Just respond to the positives ones for now and we'll see how it goes. How about start by answering tst's questions above?

Fatty,

You're going to have to look past all of that. When my WH posted here, he was defensive at first too, wanting to get his part of the story out, yet he always took full accountability and did his best to swallow the hard stuff and ignore the things that he either wasn't ready to hear or he felt didn't apply to him.

It's not worth walking away from a resource that could be CRITICAL for your Recovery. Pay attention to the questions that you are being asked and for the wisdom that is being given on your post. See the forest for the trees, so to speak.

Affairs are addictions and like a junkie, you are going to have withdrawals, it would be better that you have a support group that will hopefully help you NOT go back to OW and repeat this mistake and possibly lose your W forever.

Good luck!

Fatty,

I would kindly suggest that you follow tst's lead here. Forget about the bickering, and focus on who can help you. Tst has been there, and knows what need to be done in order to save the marriage, from the wayward side of things (Former Wayward, in tst's case ;))

you haven't had a kick come your way as of yet. you are only creating diversions to avoid getting to the meat of your problems with strong women and your temper.

the only person abusing anyone here is you...and the sooner you get to that fact and past your anger...the sooner you will be someone that is worthy of breathing the same air as your wife.

As for your church pastor, I think it might be a good idea to go see him. Most likely it has been a long while and I am sure you two have much to catch up on.

TST is a great guy and would be a wonderful example to follow here. I could not agree more.

Fatty -

I just want to let you know that I support you being here - I hope you don't leave and please, please take Trustdoe's advice about skipping over those other posts.

I am a betrayed spouse. My WH came home for a year, but never put actions behind his words.

It looks like you are putting in some action. It will take some time for your wife to give you her complete trust again. Continue doing things to build her trust. One block of trust on top of the other, one block of trust next to the other. Until it becomes a solid wall that no one can knock down.

There are many wise people here.

Hope to be reading your success story --

Best of luck,

Fatty,

I would say that you probably want to stick around.

Use the "ignore" button if you don't like someone.

Stick around, because your end purpose is to save your marriage, right?


You came in asking what you could do to save the marriage. You asked for concrete ideas.

Here are my ideas:

Read the links at the right side of the webpage.

Order the book "Surviving an Affair". Read it. Don't just skim through it, but really read it and think about what the ideas might mean for salvaging your marriage.

Order the book "After the Affair". Read that one, too. Because you need more than one perspective on affairs, in order to convince you that this isn't just a cult, or just one idea on how things might get done.

Then, pick up a copy of "Relationship Rescue". You might not like the author, but do it anyway. The work in the book is something you really need to take a look at IMHO. Because you show signs of having a temper, and you do cuss a lot. Your wife has apparently reported verbal abuse, and your behavior here would serve to confirm that report. So the work you would do in the book would go a long way to show YOURSELF what the problem is, and then might help your wife to begin to believe that change is in the wind for the relationship and the marriage.

See, your wife has been undergoing changes.

She wants to see YOUR changes, too. It is only fair that she SEE them to believe them, right?

But what you just displayed didn't help your cause. Let's say you were at work - would you have done that with your boss? Nope. See, you CAN control your behavior, you CHOOSE not to.

You need to CHOOSE better behavior all the time.

Wife needs to see it all the time. That's where the SHOW IT comes in.


I would also advise you to fill out the Emotional Needs Questionnaire, and ask your wife to fill one out, too. Then, take a hard look at your wife's ENQ. What have you missed on your wife's????? What haven't you been doing for her EN's? Because in the state of the marriage BEFORE your affair, well, part of that is on YOU, and part of that is on HER.

You were not meeting her EN's, and she wasn't meeting yours, chances are.

So now that you have her ENQ in your hand, work on meeting her top 3 needs as best you can. Do it consistently. Make it your priority. And when you get a chance, throw in #4 and #5 for fun.

Finally, stop being a taker. Become a giver - and you will be completely shocked at what this does for your self-esteem. Start giving to your wife, because this is what you did when you first met her.

That might be enough for now, Fatty.


but first and foremost, stop blowing up at everybody

simmer down


SB

**EDIT***

We have a wayward that needs help and is HERE, please give us a chance to help him.

I say this with all due respect for the work you do here.




note from Revera: please email us with any concerns instead of bringing it here. thanks

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Believer, what does this mean?

>>>>/......^^^^^^))))))^^^^^!!!!!

Hope everyone can settle down so theis thread doesn't get locked. How I wish my ex had posted here or even cared to read here. He had no interest at all and now we are divorced.

I've been reading and posting to LilDoggie for months, hundreds of posts. She loves her husband and he has always been an excellent husband. They have had a relationship that many would envy.

Let's try to HELP and not criticize. Fatty doesn't know us and I think it takes a lot of balls for him to post here.

he verbally abused her, cheated on her, came back and left again....I think it is time to raise the bar a bit.

Can he become a good husband. Sure he can. But please...excellent husbands do not do this stuff.

SL - Just trying out my morse code. I studied it for over a year. I'm only encouraging him and telling him to hang in here. Nothing that would be edited.

MEDC - He has many, many years of being an excellent husband. Have you ever posted to his wife before?

well then perhaps the word ALWAYS was the kicker B. As far as who I posted too....I have almost 8K posts. I couldn't tell you if I have posted to her before.

As you are not prone to exaggeration...please tell me what was abusive on my part. I expect that kind of stuff from Jen...but not you.

Fatty, I apologise for bickering on your thread.

Now back to business. It sounds like you are doing everything right. How do you feel about your wife right now? One of the things I found difficult was wondering if I'd ever get back all the "feelings" I'd had for my H before my A and whether he could get over his hurt and anger. I knew they were there but everything was very muddied and muddled for us.

Fatty, I've finally figured out who your wife is. I've been reading some of her posts. It looks like you are already working on some of the honesty and openness necessary to begin a recovery.

Schoolbus posted to you earlier about some of the books she recommends. When I first started in recovery, I dove into the books pretty quick. I was amazed at how much it helped me. I would read SAA and HN/HN ASAP.

On a different note, your cellphone plans may cost you some money to change, but it is a necessary step no matter the cost.

I hope you continue to post here. I'll be back tomorrow to see how you're doing.

I agree with those who say let's keep it respectful. Even if you have a problem with Fatty, it would be doing his wife a great disservice to completely alienate him from a place he willingly came to for marriage help.

Yes, he will get some 2x4's, but we could pad them a bit.

Fatty, please stick around. You will find MUCH help here, and meet people who will help pray you and your wife through this. Don't give up!!

Kia ora fatty! (Thanks google!)

I can't tell you ho thrilled I am that you have decided to give it a try with us "crazies"! Please stick around. It takes all kinds ya know, different strokes for different folks... keep the goal in mind. Your marriage is what's important here, right? Don't let some marks on a computer screen keep you from the help that might save your marriage.

Everything schoolbus said. Believer too, of course.

I've always said y'all could very well become one of the success stories here. Please keep posting.

Hey medc,
Just a few things i'd like you to know, and they do not all relate to the quoted post.

1) the term "sport" is quite offensive when applied to a grown man in my country, please do not use it again.

2) I think it would be good if you stopped going on endlessly about vebal abuse of my wife, we have discussed it and we agree that "abuse" is too strong a term for what was said. Also she used the word asult not abuse and that, to us, means that I expressed myself in a verably forceful manner, as is normal for people who are having a disagreement. Anyway my wife and I have discussed this matter and WE have moved on to other far more important issues.

3) I understand that you have been hurt by curcumstances in your life, but don't take your anger and hurt out on me. In return I will do the same. Yes I am also angry and hurt by the things that I have done, not anywhere near as much as my darling wife but hurt all the same, and ashamed.

4) Please do not presume to know more about my, sorry our, situation than I have shared with you, that is the path to misunderstanding and un-helpful comments from both of us.

I intend to share much more of what i have done in the past and what i am doing now to fix the damage the I have caused. But please give me a little bit of time to write these things as I have a few rather pressing obligations, my wife is the first of them, the children are right up there too, that is followed by my work as an on call firefighter (not the job where i met the OW)and a need to get my fathers estate sorted out. This might sound like an excuse to get out of answering peoples questions but please trust me it is not. I have no great love for sitting in front of a computer screen, it is one of the tools I used to keep the A going and it was the prime tool in restarting it.

Thanks for listening
Fatty

Prov. 15:1

Hey Fatty, it's really hard not to focus on the negative posts. I know ALL about that. It's really been only one person who's been negative. I thought I'd stopped rising to that particular bait but obviously not, if today was anything to go by.

You've been given a lot of great advice. I hope mine counts as "great advice" lol. You and your wife need to talk, to really communicate. My H and I found that really hard to do without our MC present. We'd been married 28 years and thought we communicated really well but we were/are both conflict avoiders and always avoided anything that might cause a disagreement or an argument.

But....we did talk after my H found out. We talked and talked and talked. I was honest with him. He was honest with me. We also cried (yes, even my taciturn H) and we even managed to laugh. We raised our voices for the first time in our marriage too, but we were COMMUNICATING.

Really, to find out what your wife wants - ask her. It sounds like you have done some very good things. The most important thing is to keep out of contact with the OW and make sure it sticks.

BTW, just so you know. I'm a JAFA. Your wife knows that and doesn't hold it against me, I hope you won't.

Hey mate that's fine, I am an ex-JAFA.

Thanks for the good advice.

Fatty

Fatty,

you will get much diverse advice from different posters here on MB.

Guaranteed yu won't like a lot of it. Waywards here, even waywards trying to do the right thing get jumped on sometimes. By far the majority of posters are betrayed spouses.

You abusing them feeds into that. No one promised you a rose garden or a free ride.

Accept that you won't get an easy ride until you show yourself to be fully repentant and remorseful. EXPECT to get called out by folks when you are spewing fog.

Don't let people who tell you what you want to hear tickle your ears.

Don't get into slanging matches.

When you start following this advice, listening and not reacting if you don't like what you are being told you will probably find the road will get a little less bumpy.

IF you think something is abusive, notify the moderators. There's a button at the end of every post for you to do just that.

Listen, learn and be humble. That will win you a lot of friends.

Remember this board and the vas majority of posters are in the USA so bear in mind there are cultural differences and don't react in mock outrage if someone says something you find culturally insensitive.

And change your username to something less self depreciating.

Translates to:

"HANG IN THERE. YOU MAYBE THROWN OFF MB BEFORE YOU EVEN START. YOU CAN PUT IDIOTS ON IGNORE."


WS's understandably, have a tendency to be met on MB with condescension and a bit of name calling. It's the nature of the beast (BS) somewhat.

Fatty will not receive group hugs for his decision to post here.

The use of the ignore feature should be used very selectively, IMO. One can miss out on some valuable advice even though that advice is sometimes delivered on the end of a 2x4.

I can see that others have already jumped on this, including some who were WS's themselves.

OK, as others have said, you have to own your own behavior. That means that anything that even sounds like you are blaming your spouse for your own decisions has to go.

So what if I re-wrote this as:

I had an affair because I wanted to spend more time with my wife and when I couldn't spend as much time with her as I wanted, I made the selfish choice to have an affair.

Wouldn't that be more accurate and put the blame for the decision right where it belongs?

I think your wife is wise and it seems that you are gaining wisdom everyday.

NC is critical. Affairs are fantasy. Marriage is work.

I'll read more. However, I would encourage you to check your words before you write them, and make sure you are not blaming others for your choices as you did in the beginnings of this post.

I'll agree not to call you sport when you are adult enough to accept the following truth. AFFAIRS ARE ABUSE, PERIOD.

If you can't accept that truth, then perhaps those calling you sport are not far off.

Right now, I would put too much stock in your wife saying the term doesn't apply. I'd put far more stock into what Dr Harley calls affairs. He equates them to the rape of the marriage.

So unless you are going to sit here and tell me rape is not abusive, I'm going to trust the good Dr when he equates an affair with a horribly abusive act.

I can imagine it's hard to comes to grips with that.

However, I think anyone who would argue he's beyond being called sport, would be able to own this, and agree that his affair was one of the most horrible acts of abuse he could perpetrate against his wife.
Comparing hurts and assuming what others are doing is not a good tactic.

Just focus on how you hurt you wife, how your actions WERE abusive, and never mind how much you hurt, or anyone else may be hurting, etc.
As long as you don't presume either, like you did in #3 above. If you are serious about how others should no presume, then it would be more credible if you didn't presume about others either, such as those who answer you.

Not to presume myself. I can't imagine how it could be comfortable to be in your shoes right now. However, I ask that you try to find the truth in what folks are saying. I'm sure everyone shares a little truth. Find that, use that. No need to defend.

If you are looking for a rebuilt marriage, fighting folks here is just a waste of energy. If someone is not helping, or you feel attacked, then ignore the emotional content and look at the facts.

For example, you seem defensive about the abuse comments. Yet the facts are Dr Harley compares affairs to the rape of your spouse. He should know. He faces thousands of couples.

That's a fact, and it's one I believe you'll need to come to grips with.

Why not set a time and say you'll be back on ___________________.

Even if you just spend 5-10 minutes and tell folks you are back it will demonstrate that you value the advice and feedback and update folks on what is going on.

Finally, you have the choice, to be defined by what you did, or to be defined by what you do.

I think you have to look at what you did, accept the full weight of what that means, and then decide and act so that you are not going to do that again.

Men who do that are the ones no longer called sport.

no problem...I was not aware of that.



I would strongly suggest that if you wish for the abuse issue to die down, that you demonstrate an ability to control your temper. When a BW uses that word and then her WH shows up here proving the label...well, it isn't s stretch to call it an ongoing problem. Hopefully this will be the end of that.


I am not doing that at all. I am looking at your situation and responding appropriately given the details and your responses. Some people here will cater to dysfunction...I am not one of them. Please read BK's post. It sums it up quite nicely for me.



your anger and aggression is really typical for a wayward. So, what I know here is based on your spoken words, anger, aggression and experience. I will certainly be willing to start over with you....wipe the slate clean...but please know that I will call you to the carpet for typical wayward behaviors.

I think it is good that you have waded into an uncomfortable place by posting here on MB. I would suggest that in addition to listening with less defensive ears...that you seek out TST (both here and possibly via email). I have not seen a FWH that has earned respect and admiration like TST. I am proud to call him friend. And if you think I whacked you with a 2 x 4...well, TST saw a lot worse.

Be well and keep up the good work. Change is a good thing.

I'm curious...
Did I miss who his wife is on MB? Perhaps this is not relevant but I thought it might give a little perspective as there are always two sides to every story. If it seems unimportant to others...I'll follow your lead.

Hi Fatty-very glad to see you here! I'm a FWS myself, and I don't think our marriage would ever have recovered as wonderfully as it has if it wasn't for this forum...It was a Godsend to Mr. W and I...

I'd ask that you take all forms of advice from all the people here...I know it sure helped me...Even the stuff that at the time I found "harsh"...In fact, it was that stuff that eventually helped me the most...I found that the ones that stung particularly bad were usually ones that had at least a kernel of painful truth to them...I reacted at the time and wanted very much to pick a fight here though...I think that is just part of this walk...

What I began doing instead was opening my eyes enough to see that since I had been so very wrong in the past that it was certainly a possibility that I was again and tried all the advice on for size...I continue to do that now...I look at ME first and see if that is where the problem truly lies...I've found that to be a very beneficial exercise that has served our marriage greatly...your mileage may vary...



Hey, that made me laugh...I did not know that...I'll tell ya why it made me laugh though...We (Mr. W and I) used to do a lot of white water rafting trips-well, I was in a "raft", he is more of a kayaking sorta guy...ANYWAY, the river guides used to call all of us non-local types "sport"...Only later did we learn what that stood for: "Stupid People On River Trips"!

Like BK (aka Big Kangaroona the silly Aussie )said, this forum is mostly populated by we Americans...It is also American Owned and Operated...I'm afraid you "silly furriners" will just have to overlook cultural differences and know that no offense is intended...


I understand Fatty...But did you realize that by MEDC posting that to you, that you and your wife TALKED about it? That his posting almost gave you guys a "common enemy"? That you might even have bonded a bit over it? See this board serves many purposes, some of them unspoken...There are posters that willingly sacrifice your liking them for the benefit of your marriage! See how that works? Kinda neat, huh? Mr. W and I got a lot of that very thing...Consider it and see...I'm a firm believer that I can learn something from EVERYONE that I come into contact with - even if it's to learn what not to do!

Jen, (KiwiJ) comes to mind for me there...I'm not sure that I've ever told her that her "falling off the wagon" is what made me fully grasp the importance of NC...That when I watched her battle the affair addiction once again that it convinced me that I could not possibly attend my high school reunion that Mr. W and I had planned on going to...(OM would have been there)...She helped our marriage immensely and she didn't even know it...I owe her a BIG THANK YOU for that...(Hope you are reading Jen! THANKS A MILLION!!!)

Come at this humbly in all ways Fatty...It WILL help you and your wife very much...


Fatty, I really don't believe that MEDC posts out of "pain", but what if he did? Would it be kind to point that out to him? Really trying to be empathetic towards people here will also help you guys...No kidding...Try it and see...

I understand your frustration Fatty...Really, I've been there myself...I hope you can benefit from what I'm telling you since I've walked this path before you...Really, focus on your wife and yourself...Lashing out on the board at others won't serve your purpose for being here, even though it might "feel good" to do at the time..."Feelings" can't be trusted as I know you've found out the hard way...Use logic and reason instead...Consider that you are new here and might not know all the ropes just yet...Remember that you aren't a victim of anything other than your very own selfishness...When you approach with that attitude, you'll come out a winner...I guarantee it...I wish you well...I'll be around and offer anything that I can...

Welcome to Marriage Builders!

Mrs. W

ETA: Hey, I'm just remembering when Jen got offended by a term that we Americans use in a completely different way than you Kiwis do...lol...Anyway, I'm thinkin' if any of you guys are gonna choose to be offended by American stuff said here on this American forum then I am gonna choose to be offended when any of you spell "realize" as "realise" or any and all of the other places that you all discriminate against the poor, poor letter "Z"! After all, isn't it all about ME?

My understanding was that his wife wanted to keep their threads separate. She did not want to read his and I think she did not really want him to read hers. I have followed events recently, but have not been a part of the support groups of these two folks.

Regards,

Edit: *deleted*

-... . .-.. .. . ...- . .-. --..-- / .. ..-. / -.-- --- ..- / .-- .- -. - / - --- / -.-. .- .-.. .-.. / -- . / .- -. / .. -.. .. --- - .-.-.- .-.-.- .-.-.- .... .- ...- . / - .... . / -... .- .-.. .-.. ... / - --- / -.. --- / .. - / .-- .. - .... --- ..- - / -... . .. -. --. / ... -. . .- -.- -.-- .-.-.- / .--. .- - .... . - .. -.-. .-.-.-

translated.

Believer, If you want to call me an idiot...have the balls to do it without being sneaky. Pathetic.

Fatty ( I don't care for that name much, I must say),

I haven't read this full thread but something that was quoted and then I found on my own on the first page stuck with me.

You said

When reading all of this a single thought comes to my mind. When faced with a problem such as I bolded in your quote, how many different ways of handling this problem could you name? Was having an affair near the top of this list? Was it one of only a few strategies that was on the list?

It seems to me if you want to truly recover your marriage, you need more arrows in the quiver when addressing problems, and the one arrow you used, should be removed from the list of possible actions.

In a very simple minded way that is what this site is about. Offering you more tools to handle problems in marriage so that the one you did use, can be tossed as a viable strategy.

Once your W knows you have expanded your ability to deal with problems such as this, I think you will find recovery will begin, I mean true recovery.

The other part is how you protect your boundaries, your vows (which are really promises to yourself, who else can enforce them), and your HONOR. You need to understand the slippery slope you were on and develop ways to recognize and avoid it in the future. But, most of all you need to figure how you allowed yourself to fail your promises to yourself.

I hope you do the reading here. Then think about it. It is far deeper than some seem to understand. It is also harder to do than it would seem from the outside.

God Bless,

JL

I think it's an excellent idea to report it to the Moderators, not just for your own benefit but also for the benefit of those reading along. It can be painful to watch. When we (both the Betrayed and the Wayward) arrive here, most of us are in tremendous amounts of pain due to natural consequences and I just don't see the benefit of--or understand the need to--add to that.

But you, Fatty, have another option that most don't have--your BW is here on board with you!! So you could talk to her about what is going on here and then decide what to do (or not) about it--together! How cool is that?!

Take care

MEDC said

your anger and aggression is really typical for a wayward. So, what I know here is based on your spoken words, anger, aggression and experience. I will certainly be willing to start over with you....wipe the slate clean...but please know that I will call you to the carpet for typical wayward behaviors.


Fatty says

Sounds good to me, end of the agro from me!

Fatty

Well done, do you know morse or did you have to Google it?
I am pleased that that someone posted the translation, helps when we all know what is being said. However I hold nothing against the original poster for posting in morse.
Have a happy day.
Fatty

Good morning Fatty. So, leaving aside the bickering between us all, I think you're getting excellent advice.

Have you been reading the posts to your thread? I specially asked Just Learning to look at your thread. JL is neither BS or WS but he's very wise (and very old lol - sorry, that's a joke that's been around the board forever - he's over 60 - not that old). He was one of the first people who responded to me on MB and I owe him a HUGE debt of gratitude for what he did for me and my H.

Yep you missed it.
Has only been mentioned once though so it would have ben easy to miss with all the chaos that I started on this thread.

Lil Doggy, or something like that, not sure of the spelling, I don't read her threads and she dosen't read mine - we discuss them together as we see appropriate. So please don't go dragging her posts into my threads and don't post mine in hers. thank you.

Fatty

Fatty:

Are you here for some help?

To find some way back into a household that has been blown up by your actions?

If yes, then there is alot of help here. Your BS has been getting excellent advice and you MUST have noticed.

If yes, then one day the posts that seem like 2x4's right now, YOU will be helping to deliver to the next WS who shows up and trys to defend his errant ways.

There are many different ways to be given advice. And EACH of them is employed here.

Read, try to understand, and then try to employ things that make sense for you. You have many miles of road to travel in recovery. Something may seem not to make sense right NOW. But they will. Its a narrow path, but it can be done.

LG

What? "Self depreciating"? I don't see it that way, just a name that popped into my head and I foumd it slightly funny. But hey if you've got any ideas let me know what they are.

Also thanks for the rest of your post, noted all the good points.

Thanks
Fatty

This reminds me of Hu and his thread.

Yes is the answer to your questions.Looking forward to more of the great advise.

Fatty

****edit****

Have you written the NC letter yet?

Are you and BW going to go to a pro marriage counseling? How about the kids. Are you looking into family counseling too?

sorry for 20 questions I just wanna know where you are standing at/sitting at

What else are you doing at home to show your BW that you are making a change?

BS!

Fatty is NOTHING like you.

He has come clean w/ his BW.

And he did not pretend to BE her.

Translation: No one calls you out for lying and gaslighting your BW there.

"Fatty this is not a place for a strong willed WH"

Hmmmm, strong willed? Strong willed is fine. Defensive and justifying are not. Fatty hasn't been defensive and justifying - just the normal fog.

Funny isn't it. I'm strong willed, very strong willed, some may say bossy, but I gained a great deal from MB. It saved our marriage.

I have made friendships here that I value as much as my real life friendships, some are BS's some are WS's. There are also many other FWS's on MB who are respected and well liked. It's not a matter of toeing the party line either. It's a matter of listening to exceptionally good advice and making the changes you need to make.

Whoa...hang on there Hu. I said this reminds me of you and your thread, in a sense of how it kinda went downhill in a hurry...fog related?

Didn't mean to imply that Fatty is like you, Hu....you're in a class of your own....thank God. Best of luck in your other forum.

Hug your wife for all of us and let Fatty get the advice he needs here.


Sorry for the T/J....unintentional.

Nope do plenty of that there, just not in the abusive manor the BS's do here.

Good luck to you Fatty.

Fatty - please don't listen to hu. He is a WS that has pretended to be his wife on here or something. I couldn't read through his entire thread. So, just ignore him

How are things going for you guys today? Just try to get those 15 hours a week in together. I also read (and I believe it was here) that it's best to limit relationship talks to 15-20 minutes, otherwise it gets too emotional for both parties. Not only that, most people's attention spans aren't much longer than that for intense discussions!

Hu and Fatty are NOTHING alike!

Fatty, please disregard anything HU has to say. He has demonstrated severe mental issues.

This is a GREAT place for WS to get help. Just ask TST, Mrs.Wondering, and countless others!

if you were "strong willed" you would have never been a WH.

...and, I might add, he'd be able to hang with us.

I think you might be confusing strong - willed with having strong willpower.

I equate strong-willed more with being hard-headed and stubborn. HU is defintely those things!

OK, back to helping Fatty.

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861716213/strong-willed.html

just a dufference in how we use the words.

Yes, I agree. I was thinking of it more related to the synonyms listed here:

http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/STRONGWILLED

Hello,
I am going to try and start this thread all over. The first attempt was rubbish and created way to much friction, the wrong sort of friction. Sure there was some good stuff came out of it but it was getting lost in fallout.

SO

I have been having an affair. For the last 6-7 months I have been screwing a woman who is not my wife. I was not forced into doing that and it was my choice to do it. It was my foolish behaviour that got me into a possition where the affair could start and it was my sneaky behaviour that allowed the affair to grow. This is the way I have thought for the last few days scince I decided to come back to my wife, sometimes I don't express myself clearly and that has caused a few teething problems here.

Scince my return home I have been working on meeting my wifes EN and I now know that her number one need is affection, and number two is openess and honesty. I have told her all of my passwords for email and other internet accounts and she has my permission to look at anything she wants, any time. I even told her the name and password for the "secret" email account. I have deleted all of the OW contact details from my cell phone and email programes and destroyed all paper copies as well. Thankfully I have a shocking memory and can not remember phone numbers or email addresses so it would be hard for me to recreate them, not that I want to I am committed to staying married to my wife for the rest of my life. Yes I know it will be a long hard road to get "back in to her good books" and regain some amount of trust, IT IS WORTH IT. I replaced my tooth-brush as the one I had been using was given to me by OW and I knew that seeing it everyday would just remind me of her and make recovery more difficult.
This morning I found myself thinking about things to do with the OW, as soon as I realised I was thinking of her I put my hands over my ears and said la la la la to distract myself, I told wife that that was what I was doing and, together we discussed somethingelse to keep my thoughts from wandering back.
I am seeking out a good counsillor to help both of us in our recovery and will be spending regular time with my pastor and church elders to help me refocus my entire life, after-all an affair is not just a marriage destroyer it also takes out big parts of the rest of our lives, I need to rebuild all of my life not just my marriage - of course the marriage is the top priority!
I am hoping for a fine day today so that I can take a few motor bikes for a test ride, yes it does sound self-centred untill I tell you that wife has just got her motor bike licence and we are looking forward to riding together, and I am also looking for a bike that will suit her too.
Wife has just reminded me that there are photos of OWs home and stuff in a bunch of pics that I have, they will be handed to wife to destroy, actually just went and delt with that, another tiny little step in the right direction, many many more little steps needed.

More later,

Fatty

Fatty, welcome to MB'ers. You will find a lot of support here and people that have walked in your shoes. Learn from them and take care of your wounded wife and things will go well.


A call to the Harley's might be a good idea if you can work it into your schedules and budget. While it isn't cheap...this is not an area to try and save money.

Welcome back from the dark side.

MEDC

Fatty, this is good stuff. I am so encouraged to see it.

This line is so true..great insight!

I am seeking out a good counsillor to help both of us in our recovery and will be spending regular time with my pastor and church elders to help me refocus my entire life, after-all an affair is not just a marriage destroyer it also takes out big parts of the rest of our lives, I need to rebuild all of my life not just my marriage - of course the marriage is the top priority!

MedC is right...the coaching with the harleys is worth the money.

W and I will be doing our 3rd session on Thursday.

Set a phone session up, get your wife on board with the MB principles, and surprise her with a phone session....wish my WW would have taken these steps for us...your BW will really appreciate the effort.

hu7668,

Thank you for that advice, I choose to ignore it, I am staying here!

Fatty

Nothing to add, just lot's of

Good man. He'll just spew his lies over there anyway...get called out...then run somewhere else, while his BW suffers...all because of his lack of balls.

Yes I wrote the NC letter as soon as I walked into the house and wife posted it. Actually I didn't really write it, I just copied the one out of the "surviving an affair" book. It does seem like an easy option and if I were doing it today i would write my own, but all the same it is done and done seriously.

Yes we are looking for a councillor.


Thanks
Fatty

I HAVE ALREADY SAID " I AM STAYING "

Thanks
Fatty

If you were serious about recovering your marriage, wouldn't it be wise for you and your wife to get your information from a common source?

I doubt philanderers.com will be of much use to your marriage, but go ahead and try.

Oh, and nice job on the fresh start, Fatty. There are many wise people here, once you get past the pushiest few members.


When I read "Fatty", my first thought was a less-than legal cigarette-like object....but that's just me.

I see your point Medc, but one moment (OK 7 months) of weakness does not make that my "normal" character. I slipped up big time, I know that but I will climb out of this hole and being strong willed will help me to overcome the things that may try to get in the way. I do not agree with the phillosophy of "once bad, always bad" or any other re-wording of that that you might like.

Do you see my point?

Fatty

Taking the wrong meds, freaking out and shooting someone is one thing.

7 months? That's a whole lot of pre-planning, ducking, dodging, and lying.

Obviously, if it wasn't part of your character to begin with, it sure became a part of it during that time.

Hitler was strong-willed.

Being a good person and being strong willed do not go hand-in-hand.

Just be a good person.

Fatty,
What will you do when you have the same feelings that came up for you after the 1st relapse - 4 or so weeks ago? What is your action plan?

Have you considered writing a Personal Recovery Plan that includes how you will recover your M too? I think it's important to fix the man and then the marriage.

That way you can secure your future and put all this behind you at some point.

Good luck!

I would never question advice...I just hope you don't take this statement as an excuse to have an affair while "fixing the man before fixing the marriage", fatty...like my WW did.

That is not a term that we use in NZ for that type of cigarette-like object. It is a slang term for a gentlemans "parts" but that had nothing to do with choosing it.

Any way must run, things to get done before the rain comes.

Fatty

Hey now, I resent that being a strong willed person and all. If I didn't know better I'd think you were saying us strong willed people are bad

Fatty, i see your point...but as you can note that was directed at HU7668...not you.

Always note the RE: on the reply heading.

Hitler, strong-willed? I would rather put him in the "mentally Ill" box.
We could debate that for hours, but that is not what we are here for.
Anyway I have already admitted that I was not myself for the period of the A. Well obviously I was myself but I was out of character. Now I am rebuilding my marriage, my life and myself. My strong-will and my commitment to my wife/marriage will help me to do that.

Fatty (back in character)

Oh dear, a slight goof there, sorry.

Definately not like Hu...it's official.

I've posted to your BW off and on through the months you've been wayward.

She is a strong woman.

She is right to ask you to work on your issues.

Three forms of recovery:

Your personal recovery
Your BS's personal recovery
The marital recovery


Your BW has been working and growing while you were off with OW. She has made incredible progress. She understands many of the basic concepts here, and has learned some of the things that the marriage will need to undergo in order to make it more affair-proof.

You CAN have a better marriage, but there are some things you need to consider.

What were the problems in the marriage at the point of the affair? You need to be really un-emotional when you consider them. You cannot blame the state of the marriage on your wife, or on you - it belongs to both of you. So evaluate that "state of the marriage" back then. What contributions were you making? Were you meeting her needs then? If you were meeting some, what were you doing right and why? What were you not meeting, and why not? Think about those things, Fatty. I don't mean for you to just pass this one over lightly.

The EN's you DID meet are just as important as those you didn't. And to be honest about them - don't say "I was terrible at everything", or "I was perfect at everything".

Then, take a look at her EN's for right now. Think about meeting them today. They have changed - and the job now is to meet them.

The other thing to understand is that the EN's will CHANGE as time goes by. This isn't a one-time deal - the job from today and forward is to look at these EN's, and understand that you need to look regularly at them. To see how they evolve, and to see if you are meeting them. And to be sure that you are communicating on what YOURS are also, so she can meet yours, too. It's a two way street, and the street CHANGES. Be sure that you understand that concept, because it is now a lifelong change in your marriage.

But you also have another job, which is making restitution for your affair. That will be tough. Meeting her needs is one thing. Making changes in yourself is another. But you will have to ask your wife what her expectations are, what she thinks she will need to see for "restitution". She may not even know at this point. And you may have to accept that answer for now. Be ready to accept that answer, Fatty. Her pain right now might leave her not knowing what restitution could fulfill her.

But I do know this - she has not wavered, not once, in her desire to restore your marriage. Not one time has she said she would be better off without you. Not one time has she said she has lost her love for you. Not one time has she said she wanted to give up on you.

You DO have a chance with her. You are one LUCKY SOB.


SB

Hi onlyUcan

Great question! I have been thinking about it on and off today and I don't really have an answer for it. You can be sure that I will be talking with wife about it tonight. It is possible that those feelings will not surface this time, my reason for saying that is that there are some very different curcumstances involved this time. The first time I came back to my wife I did so for a bunch of wrong reasons. I was deeply depressed following the death of my father and I returned home for the comfort of familiar surroundings and familiar people. I was seeking comfort, not a looking to fix anything. Also the A was still bubbling away in the background.
This time I have completely seperated from the OW. There are many many reasons for leaving her and at least as many for not going back. There is only one reson for coming home - that is to fix my marriage/life/self (OK so maybe that is 3 reasons).
So why do I feel a little bit protected from the possibility of being hit by withdrawl, simple I have come to a point where I have a strong dislike for the OW. The A died. The A was over before I returned home, yes only just over but over all the same.
Now I expect you all to tell me how silly I'm being with this train of thought, and I am open to that suggestion, but please don't forget that just a few lines ago I did say that this is going to be discussed with wife tonight and together we will make a plan - we have always come up with the best plans when we work together and share ideas.

I have not yet written a personal recovery plan, but I do intend to. A writen plan is the only sort worth having IMO.

Thanks
Fatty

I don't think it's a silly train of thought at all. It was easy for my FWH to do the NC letter(s) when he relapsed because he truly wanted to be with me. He truly loved me and OUR family.

But what he failed to safeguard against, until this time around was what he would do in the face of stress. I think it's terrific that you are talking to lil about this and working these things out together.

Just remember that it takes committed action and it's long term. When you feel stress, find other outlets that can release it.

Another thing that I have noticed my FWH do is even when we fail, for example, both of us get back into our habits of disagreeing, he has picked himself back up and changed his behavior and actions, even right in the moment in front of me. It's really been an eye opener for me and caused me to focus on how I can react differently too.

You 2 could truly be a great inspiration down the road for people who recovered after a Dark Plan B. I'm very happy for you.

Fatty,
If I may, I'd like to address this from another angle. Yes, I'm so proud of you for sticking through this and getting the help you need. But, I'd like to see you grow through the good that you are doing for your wife. I am a victim of my H's Ea. This, I believe was his single most foolish choice he ever made in his 43 years alive!

So, what are you doing for Mrs. Fatty? When is the last time you told her she was beautiful? When is the last time you complimented her on her outfit or the dinner she cooked. I dont' mean a general thought, I mean a true-blue compliment. Because we, the BW, feel so inferior after our H's A, we are totally unsure about everything we used to feel secure about. Your wife may seem on the outside to be the most secure and strong person you know, but inside she's probably a mess.
So, my advice is this. Pay special attention to her. Look her in the eye and simply smile. Touch her when you walk past her. Kiss her on the lips...not the cheek. Heck, make out with her -- whatever happened to that after marriage??? You will start to heal if you see her start to heal. Make her feel special. In the end, her recovery will be the key to your recovery. The longer the time goes by with no contact from OW, the easier it will be to love your wife all over again.

Maybe this is too simplistic, but I know from my point of view it's what I need. Good luck

I felt the same way when I was invited back into my W's life. It's not a silly train of thought. But actions need to follow. I would suggest you begin putting together a list of actions/precautions you can take to provide a deeper level of protection for you and your wife.

Dr. Harley calls these actions "Extra-Ordinary Precautions" or "EP's" for short.

You see your inability to protect your W is what led to the door opening that allowed the affair to begin.
1)You allowed yourself to be alone with another woman.
2)You allowed yourself to listen to her problems.
3)You shared your own problems.
You made the choice, for whatever reason, to NOT protect your wife and your marriage.

Hence, the need for EP's in your life.

I copied over my list to give you an idea of what I'm talking about. I hope it helps you.

Putting this in writing and following through will re-establish protecting your wife. Protecting your wife MUST be your number one job if you want to restore your M.

This is AWESOME.

While I'm sure your wife felt gut-punched to know you were thinking of OW, the confidence and trust gained by that one action of yours were phenomenal. I don't think it's possible for anyone to explain just how vital those volunteered bits of painful honesty are to a BW.

It would have been so easy for you to keep your thoughts to yourself. So easy for you to tell yourself you didn't want to bring it up because it would only hurt your BW.

Yet you confided in her.

That is so very big!! Your W is no dummy. She knows you're going to think of OW. She has fears so deep and dark that you can't begin to comprehend them yet. When you volunteer information like this, and ask for her help in dealing with the situation, you shine a great big floodlight on her fears. They scamper way back into the corners to hide for a little while, and your W gains a bit of strength, and trust, and comfort as a result.

You are so very much on the right track.

I agree with turtle. You did the right thing by telling your BW that you had thoughts about OW.

My W goes day to day telling me that she never thinks about him......it's a lie, and I know it. How would I react if she told me she was thinking about him tody?...not sure...but, isn't it my right to find out? My W is just trying to protect herself from my possible negative reaction (selfishly, as usual).

It's nice to know that you have enough respect for your BW to tell her, even though there is a chance of her reacting in a negative manner. You've shown her respect by doing so. Kudos.

Very good idea!

I posted to you on page 1 or 2 of this thread - I linked some reading I thought would be useful for you. I was wondering if you'd had a chance to read (watch the video) any of those links?

As far as writing out a plan goes - the MB site is full of helpful templates.

Out of curosity - what sort of work do you do - not a specific company perse - but are you in sales, medicine, technology, science, labor ETC. Sometimes knowing what type of work you do helps us gear our approach. For instance - I work in medicine, so making comparrisons to something in my field helps me understand the marriage building concepts more clearly - and application of the concepts is smoother when we can relate to the examples in context to our lives.

best of luck and again - welcome

Pep

Yes, dead right, guilty on all three counts. I am ashamed and embarrassed that I did allow those 3 things to happen, but not ashamed to admit it because admitting that I did get those things wrong is helping me to fix myself so that I can become the H that my W has always been intitled to. Also by admitting that I did get those things wrong re-enforces the need for me to avoid those situations again.


Thanks for that list, it is a great starting point for my own EP's. Clearly some of yours will not apply to me and others will need some modification and yet others will need to be added to take into account the differences between our situations.
Very helpful,

Thanks
Fatty

To be honest no I have not yet looked at those links, however I have set aside some time tonight to look at them (you did indicate that they would take a bit of time to get through). So thanks for sending them to me and I am sure they will be very useful.


What sort of work I do? Well there are many answers to that question, I have several jobs and depending on the situation I quote a different occupation. I am a part time farmer on the farm that we live on and I also do part-time milking on other farms. I have a bussiness copying old sound recordings onto CDs(that I operate from home), I am a part-time fire fighter, and for a few months recently I was a full time caregiver for my father during his fight with cancer. Before the A I was involved with Scouting, a local museum and operating a radio station - all on a voluntry basis. Oh and I was also working nights at a store, stacking shelves - that is where I met the OW, so I don't work there now (she also has left) and I don't tend to shop in that branch, too many bad memories.

In earlier times I was an enginneer andthen I moved to the radio industry as a disk-jockey for about 11 years, that job is where I met my wife, she rang up one night to request a song and we just started talking and talking and talking.

Well I bet that was a longer answer than you were expecting

Fatty

Fatty,

I'm really glad you have stayed around. I sense that your defenses aren't up so high and you are really working with your W on recovering your M.

She knows how special and treasurable I think that is. I for one and grateful and glad you are here and really hope you know that you are helping us.

I know you know there are rough days, weeks and time ahead and people on here have very real feelings, but they care deeply about each one of us on here and in the end all we want are for marriages to be restored.

Mrs Fatty is LilDoggie, she is about 100 pounds, we both found it slightly amussing to have her called Mrs Fatty, thanks for the laugh.About six months ago. I had to ask her.Complemented her on a dinner a few weeks back and as for her outfit that would be a couple of months ago (we are farmers and we don't dress well most of the time, it just the way it is) so when we do get dressed up there is normally a complement.

I know this. And I am working on it, still I value your input.
I don't know, what did happen to that after marriage, we never slowed down, we have always enjoyed each other in that area. I ahve started kissing her lips again, I found I could not kiss her lips when I was in the A. So to be able to share that with her again is wonderful for both of us.

Thanks
Fatty

Really, you should be proud of what you're doing, now!

Geee thanks

But really pride is not something I am feeling about things.

Pride comes before a fall.

I'll just keep aiming at being happy and making my W happy.

Appreciate your comments, i really do.

Fatty

cool -




I'm so sorry. Many of us, myself included, have shared this heartbreaking yet rewarding experience.



Wonderful Many interests makes you interesting.




Yes - it is great you gave us more than we expected

Thanks!

Yes, you do sound interesting, and so it your wife.

Glad you are still here posting and your thread is heading along the MB path.

Hiya Fatty;

Your answer to fiori drove something out of my braincell. It is about intimacy. I didn't understand the concept until my wife taught me. Think about how often you touch your wife, tell her she is beautiful and/or cook a meal for her. Think about cuddling and conversation. Think about a finger making slow waves on her back for about 20 minutes or so, or longer.

The more, the more often, the more sincere, the better. A marriage is like a farm, needs cultivation. So be a farmer in your marriage. Er, and hard work too

All the best.

Larry

Good luck today. Hope you can get back home soon, and hope you are not tempted to contact the OW.

Hi Believer,
I did not end up going out of town yesterday, I am heading off today (friday),and returning tomorrow (saturday), just got some legal affairs to take care of, might pick up a few things from fathers house while I'm there too. I'll be spending most of my free time with family and all of my phone records go to LilDoggie and she has access to all of my internet accounts so if I were stupid enough to make contact with OW she would find out.
Speaking of internet accounts, I have now deleted all of my social networking accounts and also deleted my "secrect" MSN account, there are now only a few email addresses left and they are all bundeled together so W can check them all with one click.
I have not yet changed my cellphone number but I will talking to the phone company next week and sorting that out.

As you can see I/we are taking prcautions to avoid/prevent contact with OW and by talking and writing about them it helps re-enforce in my mind the importance of NC.
Yes it would be better if W could join me on this trip away but because of her commitments on the farm and the complete lack of alternate labour to replace her (even short term) and due to time constraints on my bussiness, it is just not possible this time. I will be staying with family and they will keep an eye on me.

Sorry if it sounds like I'm "going on" a bit, I just started writing a very short reply and forgot when to stop.

Fatty

This is good stuff, Fatty. Keep it up.

Wow Fatty you def do alot of differerent jobs! Loved the way you and LD met over a call in.

Glad you are improving and working on yourself and you W. And WTG on kissing her on the lips for the first time again!

Im sure there will be more good things to be told to us and keep listening to everyone here. Doesnt mean you have to follow what one says!

Best of luck going out later on.

Having the same cell number worries me. OW don't often give up easily. And any contact at all will put you right back to Day 1 of NC.

I know you think you are over her, but it is kind of like an slcoholic who is "over" getting drunk, or a heroin addict that has decided to stop slamming. Affairs are very addictive, and it is not so much the OW, but how an affair makes you feel.

Anyway, prayers going with you, and you can always check in here for support. We'll all tell you "NO FATTY NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Did you make it through your trip okay? Hoping you did.

Hoping to hear you made it through your trip with no contact attempts from OW! Remember, if she DID try to contact you, even if you ignored her, it is crucial that you let your wife know ASAP.

Fatty, how was the trip?

Be honest now. Did you break contact with the OW or did she contact you while you were on this trip by yourself?

Hi Fatty -

(It makes me feel mean to call you that. I'll have to pretend you're really slim so it's like the way people sometimes call really tall people 'tiny'. I hope you come up with a posting name that's doesn't sound as if you're putting yourself down LOL)

My WXH had several false recoveries because he failed to resist the temptation to allow contact with the OW.

So it's making me sort of nervous that your last post said you were going on a trip and you haven't posted again since...

Did you have contact with the OW?

"The first time I came back to my wife I did so for a bunch of wrong reasons. I was deeply depressed following the death of my father and I returned home for the comfort of familiar surroundings and familiar people. I was seeking comfort, not a looking to fix anything. Also the A was still bubbling away in the background."

My WXH did this too. Do NOT ever do this again! It is very cruel to the BS to basically use them to meet some of your emotional needs when you know you are not done with the adultery yet. Now it's going to take even more work on your part to convince your BW that you aren't doing the same thing again.

"This time I have completely seperated from the OW. There are many many reasons for leaving her and at least as many for not going back. There is only one reson for coming home - that is to fix my marriage/life/self (OK so maybe that is 3 reasons).
So why do I feel a little bit protected from the possibility of being hit by withdrawl, simple I have come to a point where I have a strong dislike for the OW. The A died. The A was over before I returned home, yes only just over but over all the same."

Rut-Roh...

It is an addiction. It doesn't really have that much to do with the OW specifically, I TOTALLY believe you that you've started to notice her flaws, that you two maybe were having arguments, that you're starting to see that she wasn't really better than your wife... BUT you are still very likely to have withdrawal symptoms because your body produced certain chemicals that gave you a high when you were committing the adultery.

Booze is not better than orange juice either but if you're addicted to booze you are going to have withdrawals when you stop drinking. Simply KNOWING that booze is bad, and acknowledging that it wasn't right for you, and deciding, or even FEELING, like you don't want it anymore, doesn't all by itself do the trick.

'They' say that it takes about 3 weeks to get through the worst of the withdrawals, then another 6 months to get through residual withdrawal. If you have any ocntact with the OW during withdrawal you will have to start all over again.

Don't make the same mistake my WXH did, getting back in contact with the OW and having to start all over again, over and over. He put himself (and us, BW and BC) through so much additional needless suffering. He would get a temporary fix from renewed contact with the OW, but it wouldn't last long, then he'd want to come home again, CONVINCED that THIS TIME he could handle it, was over the OW, then once the withdrawal symptoms kicked in again he'd go get another fix from the OW...

And I ASSURE YOU that my WXH and the OW's adultery had ended too.
They'd have a big fight, break up for good, they never wanted to see each other again, he even called her vile names... but then he'd need those chemicals again...

At times I practically begged him to read the info about the chemical addiction caused by adultery. I tried to warn him that if he made contact with her all that he'd aleady gone through for withdrawal would be wasted, that he'd just gone through torture for nothing and would have to do it all over again. They "broke up for good" dozens of times! (A few false recoveries - the rest I was in Plan B for to protect myself)
Eventually she was convinced he was a mad-man, hated him, told him if he ever tried to contact her again she'd have him arrested, and dumped him for an OM. He was heartbroken (still don't think he's over it - years later) AND GUESS WHAT? He STILL had to go through withdrawal, all those withdrawal symptoms, just as if he was doing it for hte first time.

BTW, by then his daughters had lost all respect for him, one has nothing has nothing to do with him, and the other two only see him a few times per year.

He was SO SURE he wasn't going to have withdrawal problems and/or that he could handle contact with the OW...

Be VERY careful.
Follow all the rules - no excuses.
PLAN for what you are going to do when you have withdrawal symptoms or when she tries to contact you.
Claiming you don't have to worry about it is NOT a plan!

Fatty, how are you doing?

Whether you have good news or bad news about your trip and NC, this is the place for you. The Marriage Builder principles will help you build a better life, and we will be glad to help facilitate that!

Heya Fatty...how's it going?

Everything going well down that way? I've not talked much with Lil lately, so I have no idea what's going on. I hope that things are well.

Hello everyone.

Hey I know I have not posted for a day or two but I had a few things on. My mother was visiting over the weekend and Sunday was my daughters birthday, so I spent my time with my family and left the internet alone.

My trip away was great! I never contacted the OW and she has not made contact with me.
I just went and did what I had to do and then came home.
I have thought about OW a few times, but I always refocus myself and just tell myself to keep looking forward and don't look back.


I am happy with the way things are going between Lil and I. Obviously we have a long long way to go.

Tomorrow night I am taking Lil out to a restaurant up a mountain that is almost in our back yard, we will be staying there the night, I hope the approaching storm brings a fall of snow. Lil was really happy when I told her we were going and even happier when she figured out where we are going.

Fatty

Snow?! LOL, we're breaking 100 here in Texas!

Anyway, what a great idea!

Sounds great, Fatty! Keep up the good work.

Cat,

I was thinking the same thing! My thermometer says 101 in Texas, and here's Fatty talking SNOW....

Yikes!






SB

Good for you fatty. Keep up the great work.

Hey, you don't need to feel mean! I am a part-time firefighter, that means I need to be fit. I run up stairs for fun and for fundraising. I have run up the stairs of the Sky Tower in Auckland four times and will be doing it again next year. I am also planning a trip to Seattle in March 2009 to run the stairs of the bank of america tower, all of this is done in full firefighting gear. So you can probably guess that I am not a fatty and I am am not trying to put myself down, so please just treat it as a nick-mame.
Fatty (166 pound)

Glad you are still keeping NC with the OW. I was worried about it. And it is nice that you and the Mrs. can get away, even if only for a short time.

"Hey, you don't need to feel mean! I am a part-time firefighter, that means I need to be fit. I run up stairs for fun and for fundraising. I have run up the stairs of the Sky Tower in Auckland four times and will be doing it again next year. I am also planning a trip to Seattle in March 2009 to run the stairs of the bank of america tower, all of this is done in full firefighting gear. So you can probably guess that I am not a fatty and I am am not trying to put myself down, so please just treat it as a nick-mame.
Fatty (166 pound)"

Thanx so much for posting that!
I feel much better LOL

Glad to hear you've been sticking to the no contact and have a romantic date planned with yor wife.

SNOW?!?!?

Aw man, send us some of that stuff.
(I'm a figure sk8er and have lived in Alaska twice. Summer's OK but I am seriously missing wintertime LOL. I keep catching myself humming Chirstmas carols, as sweat is dripping down my back LOL)

LilDoggie and I had a wonderful time the other night. We went up the mountain and had a nice meal and a few drinks. After feeding and watering we had a sauna and LilDoggie had a roll in the snow, I decided the decent thing to do was to watch (just in case someone came along)- actually I just thought it looked too freakin' cold. We figured we should use all of the facilities so we had a spa as well. The only thing wrong with the night out was that we had to get up at 6am to get home in time for milking the cows and getting our girl from the sitter and get her off to school.

I am heading away again this weekend (probably just sunday), just a bit of a test ride on a bike that I'm thinking about buying and will also be going to a memorial service at the hospice where Fred (my father) passed away ,that is the main reason for the journey, just thought I would do a couple of other things on the way, so will be looking at a motorbike for Lil and catching up with a good friend before he heads back to work in Azerbaijan for another 5 weeks.

We have sorted out a new cell phone number for me, and LilDoggie is getting my old phone and number, so if anyone forgets that i have a new number they can get it from her when they ring.

See ya
Fatty

FATTY IS DEAD, LONG LIVE FLICK Actually Fatty is not dead, I have just changed my name. Flick is one of my regular nick names - as in "Flick the little fire engine" an old kids story that was recorded for radio way way back in the 1950's.

Streaming audio of Flick story

LOL, Flick. I love it. I started singing as soon as I saw it.

Flick - My ex and I rode a Harley and lots of fun going places. Here there are all sorts of people that ride, constant rallies, poker runs, charity runs, runs to Laughlin, Sturgis, lunch, dinner, etc. Nothing like riding to enjoy the scenery and the smells, with the wind blowing in your face. Very fun and relaxing.

STURGIS???

OMG How big IS that rally? We just spent the past few days in that area househunting, a difficult thing to do since ALL the houses in the area rent out every bedroom and large closet to bikers! We left a couple days before the official start, and even after driving 6 hours we still couldn't find a vacant hotel room. We (H&me, two kids and two cats) slept in the car at a rest stop.

We're now in Canada. After driving 20+ hours, we still came across some bikers, driving the same direction as us *away* from the rally, wearing "Sturgis 2008" t-shirts.

Well, Stugis is one of the biggest - I think around 450,000 usually go. We went twice, and I understand how hard it must have been to find a place to stay.

My favorite is the Laughlin River Run, which is in Laughlin, Nevada on the Colorado River. The area is beautiful - kind of like Sturgis, but with a river too. I think around 50,000 usually show up for it. We went for 15 years, and it was lots of fun. The only thing that griped me was the cost. You have to get 3 nights in a hotel at about $900.00. The following Monday, you can get a room in the same hotel for $15.00.

Okay, Flick, I've been talking to your wife.

Yes, it's SO easy to do all the right things. It's like being on auto pilot. But to REALLY mean them and to REALLY understand what you've done, you've got a lot more soul searching to do.

Your wife says you tell her "you've learned your lesson". Big whoopsies. I don't think you're even halfway there yet to being the husband you should be.

Have you ANY idea what she's been through? Do you really think it'll all go away just because you want it to?

Do you understand that she needs to process it, to go over it, to deal with it until SHE decides she's ready. You are a very lucky man. I like Lil a lot - she's a great girl and someone I'd be proud to call friend. I don't even think you know how lucky you are. She's forgiven you and how do you repay her? The typical kiwi smart remarks and using humour to deflect serious issues.

Thank you for sharing that with me.

It really is a pitty that my wife did not see fit to share it with me herself!

Kind regards

Ok, I can see there's some barely repressed anger in there. Maybe I'm reading your post wrong but that's how I see it.

I wrote that post to you off my own bat. Granted, it was after reading Lil's thread. Look, I've been in your shoes. Don't forget I was the wayward one.

Do you want Lil to tell you things like that? She'd do anything to open up communication with you both and move forward. If you want to hear all that she's feeling, I'm sure she'll gladly tell you.

I know this "walking on eggshells" stage very well. My H and I had been married 28 years when I had my A and, during recovery, it was the first time we'd ever had to watch what we said to each other. It was horrible.

Edited to add: I was probably a bit harsh last night but I SO want you both to make it. I DO like you, you know but I think you are a tad manipulative and a bit of a charmer. Takes one to know one. I KNOW you want to do the right thing and you've come here to MB which is great. I was so grateful when I arrived at MB. If I hadn't found it my H and I would be divorced. We wouldn't have had a clue what to do. I wouldn't have had a clue.

I learned so much from reading other people's threads. BS's threads. I learned so much from reading the articles on the main site. I learned so much from people who took the time to talk to me.

Yes, a bit of a charmer........ Are all NZ men like that?

Anyway, I will give him credit for maintaining NC, coming back to his rightful place in the home, and making a great effort.

As we all have been mentioning, this stuff takes time.

Are all New Zealand men like that? Hmmmm, there's a certain taciturn ruggedness about them that's quite appealing.

lol, I married an Englishman.

I only know one. And he DID marry a very strong and capable woman. I forget who said they liked strong women. She was my boss, a lieutenant in the Navy, with a degree in business, AND engineering at 25. A lot of the American men didn't like her because she was smart, spoke her mind, and was a bit of a slave driver. But her NZ guy seems to love her - they are still married with 2 sets of twin boys.

TWO sets of twins??? All boys??? OMG she better be strong and capable.

Flick, you know we're all rooting for you and Lil to live happily ever after, right? And preferably with each other... We aren't just trying to bash you. We tell her straight stuff too, remember. Like when she asked you to be open and honest, and then you were, and she complained...

I agree that she should be open and honest with you, not just come here to whine. I don't think that's what she was doing, but maybe it seems that way to you, maybe not. I dunno, just throwing something out there, and I haven't had time to post to her lately so she didn't "send" me here...

I agree with you, that it's a pity Lil couldn't share that with you herself. Do you think she tried, or why do you think she didn't succeed?

Well, I'm not Flick, but I think that she is just very busy, and excited about the wonderful things that Flick is doing, but still a bit cautious.

She is used to getting support here, and it is a habit. As she feels more and more secure with her hubby, she will rely on telling HIM all of her thoughts. This is still all very new.

Yes, I'm not saying she *was* whining to us instead of being O&H with Flick. I'm just wondering what he may think is the reason behind her sharing or not sharing or trying or not trying to share.

How ya doing Flick!

Hi tst,

I am doing just fine. It seems that Lil is having a tough time at the moment, feeling that she is not getting support from her friends in the same way that she has come to expect. But as a couple we are slowly growing back together and starting to be a bit more comfortable with each other.
We are working our way through parts of the MB programme and have done the EN survey and the results are a little bit suprising. Next we are going to look at love busters, Lil asked me to read part of the book but it seems to have been taken off my bedside table, must ask her if she knows where it has gone.

I have maintained NC and have only found my thoughts wandering to the OW a few times, I want to know how she is. I know that I can not find out and I have no intention of trying to contact her but the thoughts are there still there sometimes and I know that with time they will go away.

Lil is getting fed-up with the farm, calving is always a hard time and you always feel like you are working for nothing, delayed gratification on a big scale. I would go and help her but I don't think it is a good idea - we worked together on a previous farm and both agreed to never work together again. I supose I should get back into the kitchen and do the cooking and cleaning for us. I have rather fallen out of the habit of looking after the house. That will take a bit of the work load off Lil.
She asked if I could mow the lawns today, did half of them - the rest can wait till daughter has picked up all of her "mess" from the back lawn.

I don't know if I have mentioned that I have a new cell number, also got a new cell phone that is much nicer than the old one.

Well time is ticking on and Lil will be home soon so I had better get going and start peeling potatoes and cleaning up the lounge.

bye

Good to hear from you Flick! I'm glad to hear that you are reading and implementing the MB material.

Also, must say I think it's a wonderful idea to do some meals. LD will surely be pleased to have that burden taken from her. Sounds like you both are working to build a fulfilling marriage. Have patience, it doesn't happen overnight, but you're on your way!

Keep working on Meeting each others EN's and spending 15 hrs together.
Have you read "Fall in Love, Stay in Love"? If not, then I recommend you read it soon.


I'm glad to hear you completely understand NC and the impact it has on your recovery.

15 hours? We do that easily. We have always spent a lot of time together, but now we focus on "enjoyable" time together and it is not hard to do. I wish we had known how important it was when we first got married.
As for reading "fall in love stay in love" I'll give it a go, I think that wonderful wife of mine has got a copy of it here somewhere.


The more I learn about the way an A develops and maintains its appeal, the more I understand why I can not contact the OW.

Lil told me the other day was three weeks scince I came home. It seems like longer, we have made some big progress in that time, there's a lot more to do still, but we are mostly happy together now.

Well must go and get ready to go to town with Lil, we have to go and see the accountant and the bank and then to lighten the mood a nice cup of coffee and maybe a spot of lunch.

Glad to see you still posting. I hope you will come to feel comfortable here. Sounds like you are doing all of the right things.

Please let us know when you no longer feel concerned about the OW. I'm just curious because you are an actual live WH. I want to know the timeline. If you don't feel comfortable sharing, that is okay too.

Flick - I saw this by another poster - Schoolbus - she has a way with words and I wanted you to see this -

Is the OW "right and good"? Is she that perfect fantasy that you nuked your marriage for?

Nope.

Here's why.


That OW is someone who came into your life and made sure that she attracted you. You saw her as a love candidate, and you were married. She KNEW you were married.

I wonder - would you want a wife who has no regard for marital vows? Your OW has none. She lacked regard for YOURS. She did not care that you were married.

If you ended up with her, married her, she would bring that attitude into that marriage. Something to consider. Not "good".

Your OW, did she consider your children, and the impact her presence in your marriage might have on them? IMHO, any person who intrudes on a marriage that has children involved, has no moral standing. She was willing to put herself and her own selfish desires above YOUR CHILDREN and their needs, Not. ABOVE THEM. You should never choose anyone who would put themselves above your children - that alone tells you a great deal about her character. Neither "right" nor "good".

How often did your OW say negative things about your BW? About how much better a woman she is than your BW? She said those things in order to drive your wife out of your life, to help you push your wife away - make you hate your wife in your mind - drive a wedge into your marriage, in her selfish desire to "have" you, not to "love" you. There is a difference, you know. Not "right", and no, not "good".



And that fantasy...............

OW was always able to get herself ready for you, had time to shower and dress up. Your wife? She woke up in the real world with you, sometimes in work clothes, sometimes from painting the garage, sometimes from digging in the garden...

OW was always able to put on the candles before you got there, and clean the house. Your wife? She was doing great to have your dinner ready between getting the kids to dance class and catching the dog that got out the gate yet again, and oh, since you forgot to pick up milk on your way home she ran and got it, and "somebody" broke the toilet paper holder again so she fixed that...

OW gave you hand-made love cards every time you met for secret sex rendevous. Your wife?

She made love to you that first time you two were together - remember where and when that was? How you felt then? Make your mind go there - it's reality and THAT IS LOVE.

She bought that sexy outfit once that didn't stay on long and ohhhh she looked great - remember that? And you two made love...that's reality and THAT IS LOVE.

She wrote you love notes once and twice and three times, and more, and you read them and remember them, and probably have them stashed somewhere. She has given you gifts over the years for birthdays and Christmases and "just because", and you kept some and laughed at some and don't even know what happened to others. She lost your socks and stayed up with you when you were sick.

She raised your children.

She probably wrecked one of your cars.

Or you wrecked hers!

She shared more than one laugh with you, and a thousand tears.

And she has stood next to you in the best of times, and is standing right there now, in the very worst of them.

Your OW........gone. Because she was a fantasy, and for all the reasons you can see and more............

Your wife is reality.

Your wife is love.


You make a choice every day about love. You accept it or reject it. You give it or take it.

If there is one thing I have figured out about love, is that it is found where you GIVE it.

Odd little fact.

Ok, wow.
I took a few exerpts from this to show my H. I've tried to tell him that her lack of regard for our children should have made some impact on him but he never seemed to really 'get' that. Maybe if it is coming from someone else he'll see it's not just my jaded impression of her. Oh that dumpy red-head!! Sorry///had to get that out.

fiori-

SB has an advanced degree in linguitsics and seems to always nail it.

This post by her hit me hard because my ex always thought the OW was so wonderful. She said that her 12 year old daughter was the most important thing in the world to her, but she abandoned her to live with my husband for three years.

After D-day I asked him how a good woman could go after a married man. That is just never anything most women would do.

And I had frequent contact with OW's betrayed husband who was fighting in Iraq at the time of the affair. When he got home, he told me that his wife woke him up at 4:00 in the morning by showering and blow drying her hair. She was getting ready to go out to breakfast with my husband.

And that is why SB's post spoke to me.

It has been a long time since I posted anything and Lil is getting a bit grumpy about that.

I have been away a little bit and that has kept me off the internet, but mostly I have been playing with my new motor bike.
I have also been rather depressed over the last week or so, the death of my foster father just over 3 months ago is still the source of lots of sorrow and very gloomy thoughts, I just can't quite come to grips with the idea that he is dead. I have just started to sort through his house and it really is a bit to much to deal with sometimes.

Lil was doing her best to help sort through some papers the other night and she came across a letter that a previous fiance had writen to father after I left her. I had no idea that she had written the letter and when I read it I could not beleive how guilty I felt for what I had put her through. The similarity between that situation and my recent A really struck me. Yes I had an A when I was with my former fiance, I do not think she knew about it (she never said anything) but I know it killed our relationship. She was (most likely still is) a wonderfull woman, very pleasing to the eye and smart too, very similar to Lil. I have sent an email to her (well someone with the same name) to see if it is her and if it is I will send her another email to tell her that my foster father has passed away (she was fond of him), just incase she is interested, but mostly I want to let her know how sorry I am for putting her through so much pain and I will tell her that there was an A during our relationship and that I am sorry. I have told Lil that I am doing this and I think she understands that is something that I feel I must do. I feel like I need to apollogise for the things I did wrong in the past, I feel like if I don't go back and say sorry for the previous A then I can't be honest with myself about the recent A. I am being open with Lil about my contact with my ex-fiance.

I am going away this weekend, with a bunch of guys from church. We are all going to "Promise Keepers" a big conference about how to live a good Christian life and be a great husband. I feel like a fraud to even think about going, I almost wish I could just back out of it. "Me a Christian?" some advertisment I am! What a joke.

I don't find myself thinking about the OW so much any more, maybe I'm getting over it or maybe I just have so much else to fill my head with that she has been pushed to the side. When I do think of her I do not have a feeling of wanting to contact her, I just want to know if her situation is turning out alright, I ran in to some old work mates the other day and I could have asked them but I did not, I know that if I ask other people how OW is fairing then it is just the same as picking up the phone and ringing her - I can't go down that road again, Lil would never forgive me and there is a very good chance that I would never forgive myself.

I went and got the tests done for a bunch of STIs or STDs or VDs (depending on when and where you went to school) and the results for most of them came back today, so far so good. Crossing my fingers now that the last one comes back clear as well.

Well that's all for now.

Hey Flick,

Good to hear from you again!



Doesn't sound like you had POJA on this before it was done. All decisions need to be subject to POJA or they are Love Busters like "Selfish Demands" and "Independent Behavior"
LINK





Read Psalm 51

Enjoy your trip to PK and remember that EVERY man there is a sinner.

Flick,
Even Christians make mistakes...don't be so hard on yourself.

Oh, Promise Keepers will be great! I do look at you as an honorable man, at least what I know of you through your wife's eyes.

My dad died last Novemeber and I am still very sad about it and think of and miss him daily. It takes a long time to feel any better.

Hang in there, Flick, and keep doing what you are doing.

Flick, whatever happened to writing out your Extra-Ordinary Precautions?

I posted mine. You commented that they looked like a great starting point for yours. Are you ready to post yours here?

Also, wanted to ask how you are doing with this section of "Radical Honesty"??



Here's a quote from Dr. Harley:

CURRENT HONESTY

"In good marriages, couples become so interdependent that sharing a daily schedule is essential to their coordination of activities. But in weak marriages, couples are reluctant to provide their schedules, because they are often engaged in an assortment of Love Busters. They may know that their spouses would object to their activities, so they tell themselves, What they don't know won't hurt them. They have what I call a "secret second life."

But there are many who really have nothing to hide; yet they feel the need for privacy. They are offended when their spouse asks where they've been or what they've done. They feel that their spouse should trust them, and not assume the worst.

I'm dead-set against privacy in marriage, because it creates an unnecessary barrier to problem solving. When you and your spouse married, two became one. That means that prior to marriage, you had no one but yourself to consider when you made choices, and now you have each other to consider. There should be no part of your life that is off limits to your spouse, because literally everything that either of you do will ultimately affect each other. Privacy breeds incompatibility because it represents a part of your life that is off limits to accommodation.

Even when activities are innocent, it's extremely important for your spouse to understand what you do with your time. Be easy to check up on and find in an emergency. Give each other your daily schedules so you can communicate about how you spend your time. Since almost every thing you do will affect your spouse, it is important to explain what it is you do."

thank you, thank you, thank you....I copied/pasted this for the sweet hubby too!

I copied that for my WH to read also. Hopefully, it will get through.

I took my sweet time about writing these, thanks for the reminder to get it done. I copied a lot of your one TST, they are very good, I also added several of my own that fit our situation.


Extraordinary Precautions:

a) I am responsible to protect my wife at all times.
b) I will give full access of all my business records to my wife.
c) I will agree to give all passwords, account codes business and personal to my wife.
d) I will not put myself in an advice giver role with another woman, unless my wife is present and has given her prior approval.
e) I will defer to my wife as the advice giver when it involves another woman, unless she specifically calls on me.
f) I will not spend any time alone with another woman with out the approval of my wife.
g) I will not share my problems or concerns with another woman.
h) I will not share my infirmities with another woman.
i) I will openly share my daily schedule with my wife.
j) At any time she requests, I will trade cell phones with my wife for the time she deems necessary.
k) I will allow only men to provide individual counselling
l) I will always defer to my wife regarding any outside activity and will agree to eliminate any activity she feels is interfering in our relationship or the relationships of our children.
m) I will not travel out of town for business or personal reasons without making frequent contact with my wife.
n) When travelling without my wife, or a member of the church, I must stay at least 100 kilometres away from OW place of residence.
o) I will not go to the store where the OW and I used to work without my wife
p) If the OW makes contact with me I will immediately inform my wife and show her all text messages, emails etc.
q) If I start to have “feelings” for another woman, despite these precautions, I will immediately tell my wife.
r) I will return home after work and not stop off to visit people on the way home.
s) I will not install or operate messaging type programmes on the computer in my radio shack.
t) If at any time my wife desires it, I will enable GPS tracking of my cell phone.

Hi tst
Radical Honesty - I think I am getting the hang of it. It really is a very simple idea but putting it in to practice and doing it all of the time takes a little bit of getting used to. I am telling Lil about everything that I do and, and I am telling her a lot more about the things I am thinking than I used to. Still I know that I could still tell her more, just need to keep being radically honest about everything and at some stage it will become second nature.

Those sound good, Flick, way to go!

I just wanted to drop in and say hello. Hope things are going well for the two of you.

Just want to say that the OW in my A was not at all like that. She never made any special effort as far as cooking or dressing to please me. Her house was a bit dirty and her animals ran wild in the house, on the kitchen bench and all. She spent most of her time on the internet and only changed out of her PJs if she had to leave the house.

She also never said anything negative about my wife, not to me.

I AM NOT TRYING TO DEFEND HER. But I'm sure it sounds like I am.
I just want to let you know the way it was.

At first the OWs animals and her dressing in PJs were acceptable to me but as time drew on and reality started to creep in, I started to see that she was not the right woman for me.

There were things that we did together that were very enjoyable, and I'm not talking about the bedroom, I am talking about things like taking the dogs for a walk down to the park and going for a walk in the bush and exploring a tunnel that the army had left behind in a training exercise. In short OW was filling my need for RC. Now that is my wifes role and we are enjoying doing similar things, but we don't walk dogs together, we only have a cat and he won't let us put a collar on him, ha ha ha.

I know that what I did and what the OW did is wrong, but I will not spend my time putting her down, she is as human as you and I and I do not have the right to judge her - that is Gods job.

I do not need to "destroy the OW" I need to recover my marriage.

Believer, your original post is ,I guess, a portrait of a typical A, and it is very good.

I remain comitted to NC
I remain committed to restoring my marriage.

I had a thought the other day.

"Men want to have sons, partly because their wifes do not fulfill mens need for recreational companionship"

I have two daughters, I always wanted to have a son but that never came about. I am very happy with my girls.

It was just a thought and not really about me. Just something that came to me while I was at Promise Keepers.


What do the rest of you think?

Well, Flick, I guess we women look at things differently than men. In my life, I have been hit on by several married men. For most healthy women, that is a no-no. There are too many available single men. And most women feel a sisterhood with other women.

You say that the attraction was walking the dog, exploring caves, etc. That doesn't seem enough to decide to leave your wife and family. I urge you to look into yourself and figure out the "why" of the affair. Dave Carder in his book "Torn Asunder" talks about the message of the affair. Very often it doesn't involve sex.

Personally I think you may have the white knight in shining armour syndrome - just a good man who was trying to help a damsel in distress. But I don't really know you, so you will have to search for the reason.

I like your bike, and glad that you bought it. Hope that you have many days of riding pleasure.

Hello
things are going great, Lil just got her new motor bike yestreday and she is teaching me how to ride at low speed, ha ha ha.

I just got back from a weekend away, at Promise Keepers, and I was so pleased to be back home. I hated the weekend away, I just wanted to be at home with Lil, I missed her. We couldn't stop texting each other all weekend.

Hope things are going good for you two too.

Flick - we posted at the same time.

But I would like to hear more about PK and you wanting a son.

To me, personally, this is a HUGE EP and it makes me happy for Lil to see that this is one of yours. I think that many separations and PA's could be avoided if this EP was used often.

Things are going well over on this continent also...thanks for asking. Just trucking along...doing better some days than others, you know how it is. I saw a pic of her bike...it's awesome. Ike and I have been talking about getting a bike...or a moped...LMAO. Something for us to ride around and laugh on...you know.

I'm with B, I want to hear about you wanting a son.

Glad to see you working on these.

I do have a few suggestions:


f) I will not spend any time alone with another woman with out the approval of my wife.
(it is no longer acceptable for you or me to be alone with another woman....we never should have allowed that behavior in the past and never need it to exist in the future)Make sense? Our job is to protect our spouse!!! Hence, EP's!

m) I will not travel out of town for business or personal reasons without my wife's enthusiastic agreement and making frequent contact with my wife.
Do you need to travel out of town for business?

You need to, at minimum, eliminate traveling alone for personal trips! Your not single, you are married. Make sense? Either find a way to make the personal trips with your wife or don't go. Might seem harsh, but this is how you protect your wife.

n) When travelling without my wife, or a member of the church, I must stay at least 100 kilometres away from OW place of residence.
Again, you shouldn't be traveling alone.

o) I will not go to the store where the OW and I used to work without my wife
Is it necessary to go to this store for any reason? If not, then change this to "Never for any reason".


Any thoughts?

****edit****

Still waiting to hear about your desire for a son and PK.

OK I see your point, but Lil and I have decided that the wording will stay as it is. The times when I will possibly be alone with women might include when I am doing relief farm work (this is only very intermittent and generally I work alone). Also my recording work requires me to pick-up and deliver product to a mainly female client base, they are also, almost entirely, without exception over the age of 65, Lil is not threatened by them and feel ill just thinking about it. There is currently one woman who Lil will allow me to be with socially, she is 70 and her husband is an elder in the church – generally I go to visit him but sometimes he has had to pop out for a little while so I have a cup of tea while waiting for his return.


OK this time we will change the wording. We will add “enthusiastic agreement” apart from that it stands.
Yes I do need to travel out of town for business sometimes, my investment advisor and lawyer and my rental property are all in Wellington (our capital city) and there are very good reasons for not changing them. Also when I am in Wellington I always stay with my mother and maintain regular contact with Lil.
As far as personal trips without Lil, I see your point but because of Lils work commitments there are times when I will travel out of town alone for personal trips. Keep in mind that the towns around us are only 10 minutes apart and are small so travelling out of our town is unavoidable. Longer (overnight) personal trips are always family based and when Lils contract expires in 9 months time she will join me on those that she has missed in the past. She is already attending more than in the past.


Same answer as above. And are you suggesting that I stop attending events with the church mens group? I doubt that you are.


Yes it is necessary. Small town, few shops. And the OW doesn’t work there anymore, and lives many many miles away, there is only a very slight chance that I would see her there if she was visiting her friends at the store, if Lil is with me we would both be out the door like a rocket.


Yes the difference in the nature of the geography of New Zealand and (what I know of) America, means that we do tend to travel from town to town to do such simple things as visit friends for an afternoon or go to a shop that does not exist in our own town. These trips would be no different to most Americans travelling from the outskirts of a large town/city to the centre of the city. We just haven’t gotten around to filling the gaps up on the map

OK I need to make something really clear - - I do not want any more children now.

I always liked the idea of having a son. It would have been nice to be able to teach my son how to fish and shoot as badly as I do it would have been nice also to have my son in my scout troop. It would also have been very satisfying to know that I had done my part in carrying on the family name. Oh well stiff sh1t, we had one kid together and she has a genetic fault, so we decided to put the brakes on the baby making machine. So it is something I think about from time to time and particularly at events like PK.

Promise Keepers was a bit of a let down this year. It is the third one I have been to and this year I found that the speakers were very very similar to last year and there was no truely new material. Also I found that one of the speakers, who was talking on marriage, was saying a bunch of stuff that does not line up with MB philosophy. The basic idea that he was preaching was that "if anything is wrong with a marriage it is the husbands fault". MB says that marriage is two equal shares I am responsible for my 50% and my wife is responsible for her 50%.
He was also saying that men should take charge of all areas of the household and only use their wifes as cooks, cleaners, secretaries and supplementary income earners. What happened to that smart chick in Proverbs 31????

Mostly I like the PK events but this year just wasn't where I wanted be be. I missed my wife and wanted to be at home with her.
I think I will skip PK next year, but will decide that when next year comes.

Hello Darling,

As discussed..

Tst Thread

Love you
xx

Flick,

The entire point of EP's is to make your wife feel safe. If you have given this list to your wife and allowed her to make ALL the changes that make her feel safe, then you have completed the task. I would suggest you review these with Lil every month for 6 months and see if she needs you to add anything to your list.

If you are discussing things together and defaulting to what Lil wants/needs on your list to make her feel safe, then you are doing well.

Sorry to hear PK did not live up to all you had expected.

Jolly good. We discussed them as we wrote them and your post just made us discuss them more. Even though we did not change them much it was a good confirmation that we had written a good list of EPs.
Thanks for taking the time to read my EPs and comment on them, I do appreciate it.

Oh, I know exactly what you mean by having wanted a boy. I had 2 boys, and no girls. Now I watch my sister and her daughter and envy their relationship. She enjoys a whole other part of life that I've never experienced - shopping, talking, etc.

I did have step-daughters, and we were close, but when the marriage ended, most contact with them did to.

I love PK and support them through contributions, but I think that they go a bita overboard by giving men so much responsiblity for the marriage. But some men NEED that. You are not one of them. You have been a good husband, father. Not perfect, but your wife still loves and respects you. So I think you have done well for most of your life.

It is interesting to hear about where you live. Here it is just one long city from Mexico to Los Angeles.

If you want to get an idea of what the place is like have a look on Google Earth (or maps) at the land around "Mount Egmont, Taranaki, New Zealand".
We might set up a video camera on the bike one day and post a few clips on the interweb for y'all to look at.
Weather is not great today, cloudy and cool 9C(48F), so I might leave the bike in the shed today , unless Lil gets enthusiastic and wants to go for a ride on her "LilHonda" . I'll just turn my heated grips on and at least I'll have warm hands.

Flick logs off, still singing to himself "first gear, it's alright, second gear hold on tight, going faster, alright...."

SO flick, after the EP's what is the next step?

Flick:

I never been a member of Promise Keepers, so I will just point out what's wrong with this statement:


The MB philosphy is about the 50/50 marriage. PK seems to be directed at MEN. And as such, it is what the MAN should be doing.

If your Marriage is in bad shape, WHAT are you doing to FIX IT?

- Talking with your spouse to find out what is wrong?
- Spending time with your children to learn more about them and to provide a proper role model?
- Providing income that helps support your family in a manner that is acceptable to your spouse?
- If you can't provide the financial support noted above, are you working on ways to correct, and being honest with your spouse about it?

I won't get into the wife working part of your statement, as mine has for our entire M. And I would reject that part of PK.

But pointing out that you are 100% responsible for your M, and then you stating that you like the MB 50/50 model appears to be backsliding to me.

Right now? It's 100% your responsibility to fix it.

You have been doing well, but stay on track, and focused.

LG

bu

Oooh, I'm awful glad to see converts to using the good word!

Just dropping in to see how you're doing and to let you know ppl are here for you. I'll back off now and leave you to tst, BK and LG. *wave* I hope they keep posting to you!

I'll keep posting if flick engages....

I actually think marriage should be 100%/100%. Both spouses need to put all their effort into the marriage, just like you would put all your effort into a new relationship, you should not put less effort into you marriage than you would put into an A or a new GF/BF.

Gosh, I'm embarrassed. I tried to look it up on google earth and ended up in New Guinea. But I finally found NZ and saw Wellington, but can't find Naki. Is it in the south, west or east?

B, it's our kiwi slang.

The 'Naki is the affectionate name we call Taranaki. If you find Mt Taranaki on google earth you'll find where Flick and Lil live.

Jen- Are they in the east, south or west? I'm looking on google earth, but it's a big country.

lol, if you're looking at a big country you're not looking at NZ. j/k

They are on the west of the North Island. It's the roundy bit that sticks out beneath the skinny bit.

Oh, I found it! But I thought they lived by the ocean.........

They do.

Hmmm - Naki doesn't seem to be all that close to the ocean.

Hi Bigkahuna,
well we just finished doing the LBs. Lil says I AO & IB and she would know, after all she has been living with me for 14 years.

We also have done the ENs and we were both a bit suprised at what eachother stop ones are. Lils top 5 are Af, H&O, SF, C and Ad.

My top 5 are RC, PA, SF, C, and Ad.

Then we are gonna do the LBQ.


And of course we are both doing what we can to put it all in to practice.

I see your point, BUT I passed my school exams in maths and what you are proposing is a mathimatical impossibility. It also goes against Dr Harleys teachings. See SAA, or BC for details - sorry can't recall exactly where it is.

Basically, I own 50% of my marriage, my wife owns the other 50% - that makes 100%.
As far as the A goes that is 100% mine, my doing, my mistake, my choice.

So if you are not giving your marriage your ALL (AKA 100%) What else are you putting your energies into? Is it as important as your marriage? Did you give your affair everything you've got?

Both spouses putting all into their marriage isn't a mathematical impossibility. It makes a marriage fulfilling.

You identified the top EN's - excellent. How well do you both do at meeting those needs and do you have a plan to bridge the gap?

Flick, please don't let HeavensDoor, who is a troll, engage you in conversation. It's a waste of emotional energy.

Abd btw, I'm glad you and LilDoggie are doing better!

Again, as stated in a previous post, it is simple maths, 50% + 50% = 100%. If I take responsibility for 100% of the marriage then what does that leave for my wife to be responsible for? As far as fixing my marriage then the responsibility slides toward me, maybe something like 70% 30% (Lil and I just had a quick chat about this), I am afterall the one who just about destroyed the marriage by having an A. If I were 100% responsible for fixing the marriage then Lil would be required to do nothing and I can't see how that would work.

As far as the comment about women working, I was just echoing the PK message. My wife, Lil, has worked for most of our married life and is the main worker now and has been for the last few years. I am only employed on a casual basis and only work a few days a month, however my income is above the national average. What I am trying to say is that Lil and I are both happy with the way we bring money in to the house.

As already stated I am 100% responsible for the A. I am not totally responsible for creating the evironment that made the A look inviting. Am am the only one who decided to have an A and see it through.

Thanks for your thoughts, always good to have another view point, it keeps the brain working.

I explained myself clearly enough. I am sure you understand my point, as I understand yours.

I take 100% resposibility for my 50% of the marriage, if I were to take 100% of the responibility for 100% of the marriage then I would be making my wife an unequal parter in our marriage partnership.

I am sure you understand what I am saying.
Let us not disagree about the way we use words to explain such simple things.
OK?

I'm guessing you are trying to be witty with the comment about passing your school exams, but I really do hope you got my point which is that each spouse needs to put forth 100% of their effort into the marriage. If you approach marriage (especiaaly during recovery) from the mind frame that you own 50% of your marriage that may be a slippery slope and lead you to only put forth less than 100% of your effort. So my point in a nut shell is that each spouse needs to give their all, regardless of how you want to quantify that with numbers. Please note I am not trying to be arguementative, I just wanted to clarify what I meant by 100%/100%.

I don't think we disagree Flick. You both share responsibility for the health of your marriage; you both give your marriage everything you've got - does that state it better?

What about the other questions in my post?

(I see you edited your post - I agree - let's not get lost in semantics)

I am pleased you clarified what you meant, as it was not clear from your original post.
I do not disagree with what you are saying. In fact I totally agree.

I don't understand why you thought I was not(or would not) put in a full measure of effort, that was not the topic of my original post (I am sure that if you look at the original post you will see that).

However, as I have said to BigKahuna, it has been an intersting chat, ta.

Oh if you don't like my wit just ignore it, it is not intended to cause any offence.

We actually went right through the lot. Our lists are very silmilar in some ways and very different in a few.
Here is the full list for both of us from top to bottom

Flick - Lil
RC - Af
PA - H&O
SF - SF
C - C
Ad - Ad
Af - RC
H&O - FS
FS - PA
DS - DS
FC - FC

Our 1 & 2 are very different, Lil says she can't figure out why RC should be so important, but she accepts it, and she can't get to grips with it being so easy to do. She has made a big effort to take up a bunch of my interests and I would love to take up some of hers but she honestly has none (please feel free to ask her). She also has very little trouble with PA, she is a very sexy woman, there were a few changes, no more sitting around the house in her work (farm) clothes.
I have made an effort to show Lil non-sexual affection, it has paid off, I never knew how important it was. Lils number 2 is a tuff one, having been so sneeky for so long it is a bit of a major adjustment but I am trying.
We both have the same number 3,4 & 5- so that's just easy as.
In our bottom 4 we both share 3 of them so that helps things along too.

So things are really going rather well as far as the ENs are concerned. There are a couple that each of us need to work on but on the whole I think we've got it nailed. Still there are a few wrinkles to sort out but they are really just a matter of getting used to filling each others ENs and coming to grips with the fact that doing these simple things is so satisfying to the other person, when they don't matter very much to us.

I have bought a motorbike, always wanted one and now I have some spare cash I figured why not. So once I got my bike I had to find one for Lil too. We picked her bike up about 10 days ago, now I am teaching her how to ride round in circles in a carpark, and teaching myself how to handle a road bike again too (haven't ridden for almost 20 years). We are both looking forward to hitting the open road when the weather gets better and going to places that we have not been before. One of our first long trip in the summer is going to be to look at some old railway viaducts, it will involve a 3 hour ride and then a 2 hour walk then another ride home (or a motel for the night before going home). It's the sort of thing that I have always enjoyed doing and Lil says that it all sounds interesting too.
I know that someone will pick up on the fact that I am not taking up any of Lils recreational pursuits and as I have already said she dosen't have any. She used to read books ALL THE TIME, this meant that there was no time left for her to do other things (or as she just said "I didn't like to move my [censored]") When she started to look at my pass-times she decided that they looked quite interesting and could be fun so she has taken up many of them (actually she just told me that she only started doing them as a part of her plan A to get me back - clever girl it worked. She still says that they are enjoyable and she is pleased that she has become involved in them).
There are pass-times that Lil used to do before we started working on farms, mostly craft type things like cross-stitch and I used to do a few little ones from time to time, it gave us something to talk about and that was important as we did not have television. I would still join her in doing craft things if she did them, she says she ran out of time and at about 300 hours for a medium sized cross-stitch it is easy to see that a full time job and such a time consuming hobby do not go together well. She has said that when we move off the farm and a little closer to town she would like to do ballroom dancing, I am looking forward to dancing with her.

Well I guess I've covered RC quite well, sorry about the long post. I might explore my thoughts on some of the other ENs in the next few days (after the weekend).

OK - I'll wait till I see the rest of your reply before responding

Done

Look forward to your reply

OK - Thanks for your reply.

So lildoggie doesn't have RC - that's fine.

Harley talks about building a mutually satisfying lifestyle. About building compatibility.

What sorts of things did you do together when you were courting? If lil is happy to d your RC things - I don't think that is a problem. It's when you both do RC alone that there's a problem and you grow apart.

OK. As part of the EN survey, did you each rate each other on how good you are at meeting each others needs? Did you develop a plan to make up for the shortfall?

For instance...... lil has a top need of Affection. She might say she would like you to do xxxxx 5 times a day. Do you have a plan to do xxxxx 5 times a day? That kind of thing.

Did you buy the Basic concepts DVD? It's pretty good and inexpensive. Harley talks in that DVD about us forming habits! It's really a good resource flick.

Flick:

Outside of the famr thing, are you sure you didn't marry Flamingo?

She's a librarian for gosh sake, and she can read some books!

But... I have to be the one to get her [censored] of the couch.

She would rather stay put, but if I plan something, she goes, and has a good time.

Riding on the motorcycles and traveling the countryside sounds like excellent RC time.

Try the ballroom dancing. We square dance. It gets us out, gets us active, and gets us in each other arms.

It's EASY to grow apart in a Marriage. Changing those bad habits into better ones, where you do things together, is an MB concept that we had to learn.

And BK is right. If Lil's #1 EN is affection, that is really easy to meet, but you HAVE to do it. And when you do, it gets ALOT easier. Back rubs, hugs, holding hands, kind words. They have a tendency to multipy quickly as you get better at this MB Stuff.

LG

Flick, I have a question for you. Do you feel guilt and remorse for the way you treated your wife? I don't mean a twinge of mild guilt, I mean do you HURT for the abuse you put her through? Do you long to make her life easier, to show her your devotion and affection, and protect her from ever feeling similar pain again?

BTW, this is not a trick question; I'm seriously asking.

Hi

That is an interesting question, or serveral interesting questions.

Do I feel guilt and remorse? I would say yes, however the biggest single emotion would be SHAME. I am ashamed of what I have done, shame comes from a knowledge of guilt and genuine guilt leads to remorse. So yes I do, I just can't understand how much hurt I have caused her, she can explain it but if I do not experiance the same situation then I am unlikely to understand how she really feels.

Your next sentance/queston seems to be a bundle of questions, not just one question, so I will answer each one.

Do I long to make her life easier? Now that is an interesting one, I could almost write an essay on it. If we take the question at face value then the answer is yes I do want to make her life easier, it seems like what everyone would want for their wife. The question that needs to be asked now is "just how easy do I want to make her life and what is an 'easy life'?" I could make her life easier by hireing a maid, and not letting her work, getting a job and supporting her financially, that sounds like a easy life to me. However I do not think that she would enjoy that sort of life for very long and therefore that would not really be an easy life.
I think that you are asking if I want to make it easier for my wife to trust me and thus make her happier and that would lead to a "better" life. In that case the answer is yes.
The rest of the question, "to show her your devotion and affection and protect her from ever feeling that way again?" There are three parts to this, DEVOTION - yes I want my wife to know that I am devoted to her. AFFECTION - that is her top EN, I don't see what is so great about it but it is important to her in the same way that RC is important to me so I will show her as much affection as she wants, I do not think I will ever be able to show her too much affection. And then there is the PROTECTION aspect - I would almost class that as a "no brainer" it is why I am doing MB. I never wanted to make her feel the way she feels now or the way she felt when she found out about the A, or the qway she felt when I said I was not going to come home.

Now for the short answer, YES.

Just one final thought, you ask "I mean do you HURT for the abuse you put her through?" I would have to say the honest answer is that I do not. The reason I say that is because I do not feel a hurt and I do nt see what I did as abuse. I would use the words "deep and honest guilt" in place of "hurt" and that is what I feel, well honest guilt, the feeling of guilt gets deeper with time, as I discover how much stress and grief I put her through. The abuse is something I am still coming to grips with, I understand that I did it and that she feels that way, but I don't fully understand it yet.

9 dictionary results for: abuse
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
a·buse /v. əˈbyuz; n. əˈbyus/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[v. uh-byooz; n. uh-byoos] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, a·bused, a·bus·ing, noun
–verb (used with object) 1. to use wrongly or improperly; misuse: to abuse one's authority.
2. to treat in a harmful, injurious, or offensive way: to abuse a horse; to abuse one's eyesight.
3. to speak insultingly, harshly, and unjustly to or about; revile; malign.
4. to commit sexual assault upon.
5. Obsolete. to deceive or mislead.
–noun 6. wrong or improper use; misuse: the abuse of privileges.
7. harshly or coarsely insulting language: The officer heaped abuse on his men.
8. bad or improper treatment; maltreatment: The child was subjected to cruel abuse.
9. a corrupt or improper practice or custom: the abuses of a totalitarian regime.
10. rape or sexual assault.



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[Origin: 1400–50; (v.) late ME abusen < MF abuser, v. deriv. of abus < L ab&#363;sus misuse, wasting, equiv. to ab&#363;t(&#299;) to use up, misuse (ab- ab- + &#363;t&#299; to use) + -tus suffix of v. action; (n.) late ME abus < MF abus or L ab&#363;sus]

—Related forms
a·bus·a·ble /&#601;&#712;byuz&#601;b&#601;l/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uh-byoo-zuh-buhl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation, adjective
a·bus·er, noun


—Synonyms 1. misapply. 2. ill-use, maltreat, injure, harm, hurt. 3. vilify, vituperate, berate, scold; slander, defame, calumniate, traduce. 6. misapplication. 7. slander, aspersion. Abuse, censure, invective all mean strongly expressed disapproval. Abuse implies an outburst of harsh and scathing words against another (often one who is defenseless): abuse directed against an opponent. Censure implies blame, adverse criticism, or hostile condemnation: severe censure of acts showing bad judgment. Invective applies to strong but formal denunciation in speech or print, often in the public interest: invective against graft.
—Antonyms 3, 7. praise.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
.........................................


What we did to our spouse' was nothing short of abuse!

You can minimize it all you want but it is still abuse!

You didn't guilt your wife or even just make her feel bad, you didn't hurt her, as in cut her with a knife, YOU abused her as in F'ing someone else while you were married.
You chose, just as I did to commit adultary. You lied, decieved, punished, blamed, and emotionally twisted anothers life, (YOUR WIFE'S). ALL to protect yourself selfishly and you were willing to sacrafice your wife in the process. Etc. Etc. Etc.

It's not a word game. It is a simple admission that YOU did abuse your wife. It is not to say you are not attempting to restore and repay for the vile act YOU committed. It is simply admitting to the truth and knowing that you both can be healed from this.

You are doing many of the actions necessary to recover, but IMO, you must acknowlege the abuse and know that is what YOU did during your A.

I'm curious. Have you made face to face amends to your wife and children for all the lies and deceit and yes, abuse?

Have you gone back to all family and friends and exonerated your wife from any of the blame for YOUR A?

This is called cleaning up the wreckage of YOUR past. It is a step in the recovery process that shouldn't be overlooked.

Guilt and shame are not the same things. Shame is what you feel when you know other people are aware of what you've done. Guilt is something you feel even if no one else knows about what you've done.

Flick - that is so sweet that you came to MB to protect your wife. I really see the effort in THAT. Look around and count how many men came here because there wife was posting. There are just a couple. So I admire you for that, because you are DOING it, and that says so much more than words.

Flick, thank you for taking time to thoughtfully answer my many questions. I see so much progress!

Of course there is still room for improvement, and I pray that your marriage will continue to thrive and grow, and that one day you and your wife will be happier than you ever dreamed.

Hang in there!

Hey TST,
if it is not a word game then why did you send me a full copy of the definition of the word?
Like I said in the original post, the abuse idea is something that I am still getting my head around. Once I have got my head around it then I will, I guess, be in a better possition to fully own up to it and accept it.

Not according to my dictionary. I stand by what I said.

We are getting happier and happier with each passing day. It is really nice to see Lil happy.
Thank you.

:crosseyedcrazy:
I sent the definition to help you get your head wrapped around the idea that you did abuse Lil' and you need to step outside of all the rationalizing that prevents you from accepting this.



so how about my other questions?

Well guess what!? I did abuse her, I finally get it, and do you know what made me finally understand? I thought back in time to a time early in our relationship, a time when the boot was on the other foot and I realised that I felt abused by her actions and therefore I must have done the same to her, in fact I probably did more as my A was much later in our relationship and also lasted for longer.




Basicaly the answer is yes.

Flick,

I gotta tell you, I care very deeply for your W and always have felt a strong connection to her. She and I have spent many nights holding each other up and I am so happy for her and this chance.

I have watched you come here, take your lumps, walk away, but then come back and take the lumps and change.

Thank you for that.

She deserves the best and when you look at your stuff and own it, you are giving her the best.

Flick,

Lil did not abuse you. She broke up with you and started a new relationship. She was single and had every right to. You, however, didn't respect her boundaries, showed up unannounced, entered her flat, and saw something that was none of your business. Witnessing that, I am sure, caused you great pain. But THAT was not abuse.

on a scale of 0-10
Her abuse toward you = .01 /Both single and broken up.
Your abuse from adultery = 10 /married and YOU CHEATED.


This is just another example of you refusing to acknowledge the pain you have caused to the woman you vowed to forsake all others for. It is you, yet again, rationalizing and minimizing what you've done.

The WS dictionary? You can stand by it all you want, but it doesn't make it true.

shame (shm)
n.
1.
a. A painful emotion caused by a strong sense of guilt, embarrassment, unworthiness, or disgrace.
b. Capacity for such a feeling: Have you no shame?
2. One that brings dishonor, disgrace, or condemnation.
3. A condition of disgrace or dishonor; ignominy.
4. A great disappointment.

no mention of other people having to know anything.

It's semantics anyway.

Guilt, shame - I think WS's feel both. My wife did. She knew what she was guilty of and was ashamed with herself for what she did.

Strange that you are saying one thing to me and Lil says another. Which one of you is talking BS?

STOP POSTING MATERIAL FROM HER THREAD ON MY THREAD. We do not read each others threads and it is not your place to run around spreading parts of our posts.

Thanks for having no faith in what I say.

Bigkahuna, where have you been? thought you must have gone bush:) .
I agree it is semantics (great album, Aussie Crawl, remember?).

How's the drought? You are in Oz eh?

Things are going great here, I feel like Lil and I are making some big steps toward getting things sorted out at the moment, some people seem to think that it is all fog and nonsence, but Lil has not told me that so we are happy. Obviously still got a long way to go but we are getting there.

I'm away from home tonight and I just want to go home to be with her, I spent too long away from her and now each extra day away is a day I could do with out. Hopefully only one more trip to this place to sort outt he house before I rent it and start getting some income from it. Really has been hard sorting out all of the things here, it was my foster fathers house until he passed away.

Any way Lil is on MSN so I'm going to talk to her

Hi Flick - my work is seriously cutting into my online time and I've also enrolled in a Masters degree part time. fun fun fun.

I've been away for work a lot and you post so infrequently it seems. LOL.

We are on the Central Coast just North of Sydney. Our water situation seems to have eased somewhat.

If you use MSN and want to chat, drop me a line and I'll give you my ID.

BK,
got the email addy, you can edit it out if you wish.

Hey, hope it all goes well with the Masters.
You are right I don't post all that often, I have never been much of a writer, half of my family go from one Christmas to the next wondering if I am still walking on the earth or been drowned at sea (or some other intersting death, I'm not going to have a normal death far to common )
Will contact you when I get back to the farm.
Cheers

The following is a passage from NOT "Just Friends" by Shirley P. Glass about the difference between guilt and shame and why it's important:

Flick,

I spend time posting to waywards in an effort to help them be accountable for their words, and actions. And in hopes of helping their M
I read and post to betrayed spouses in an effort to help them see the Bullsh!t that their wayward or FWW is attempting to feed them.

Now you want to accuse me of spreading gossip?
I guess you don't understand this, but when I comment on YOUR thread, I am speaking directly to YOU about things YOU have posted and issues YOU have already spoken about or lived with Lil'.

You almost had Lil' believing that what you experienced while dating was the same abuse that she experienced. You even caused several readers to ask her if she had an affair by claiming ("I thought back in time to a time early in our relationship, a time when the boot was on the other foot and I realised that I felt abused by her actions") and you expected that to just be glossed over without comment. I don't think so.


I was attempting to hold YOU accountable and YOU didn't like it one bit. If all you want is someone to hold your hand and blow smoke up your a$$, then I believe you are on the wrong forum.
You left critical information out of your posts and expected me to "just take your word for it". You forget I know you, just as I know myself it's the same type of Bullsh!t I was guilty of trying to get my wife and others to constantly buy into. You just think you're unique. You're not.

Then you say, "Thanks for having no faith in what I say". What do you expect?

It's as if you want an apology from me for YOUR behavior. And that's the same attitude I still see in you toward Lil'

Thanks for that most intersting post. I see the point you are trying to make, and I agree with what you are saying. The problem is that I speak ENGLISH and you speak AMERICAN and we use the language in different ways. To debate this further would just be fairly pointless as we are both correct. I hope you understand the idea that I am trying to put across.

TST
I get the impression that you do no think I have made much progress at all in the weeks scince I returned home to Lil and my children, fair enough you can think what you want.

It also seems that anytime i try to make progress someone will shoot me down and say that I am wrong or that I am looking for an appology. I don't need any appology, not from Lil and not from you.

If you have no faith in what I say then what is the point of me posting anything? I may as well just type a load of lies and trickery, that seems to be what you think anyway.

If you think I have left details out of my posts why do you not ask for more detail? BTW I am not a great fan of sitting in front of the computer typing long posts. The few long posts I have sent are not normal for me.

I don't know what else to say to you. It is not easy to deal with a person who is unwilling to believe what I say.

Tst
Can you explain this please? What is it that you are seeing that I am not?

Give me a break. How come I understood it and agree with it? Yes, Americans might say "confectioner's sugar" and we might say "icing sugar" etc etc but the example from Shirley Glass was not in that realm of American/English misunderstandings.

Dear All,

Regarding the on-going debate of shame vs guilt.

Flick and I have had a talk. The out come of that is he regrets his affair. He feels bad for making me unhappy. He wants to do anything to make up for it. He would feel this way even if no one else knew what he had done. He feels more and more shame/guilt everyday and believes it will continue to grow as he comes to a deeper realisation of the pain his actions caused to his wife and children. He does not think that the pain he felt from my fling at all compares with what he has done. He was just trying to explain he understood why it was considered abuse.
He says he has tried to express this, but it seems to have been overlooked as there is more focus on the actual 'turn of phrase'.

I believe he feels the emotions that people want him to and will continue to do so. What it's called is now just pedantics.

Can this particular subject now be closed?

Lil

You have missed the point. All I am saying is that my definition of shame is slightly different to the american definition for the same word (and apparantly the definition you choose to use). Yes my definition comes out of a real dictionary and I am sure that the other posters definition comes out of his dictionary. In fact both definitions are correct in in english and american as far as I can make out. We just applied a different (but equally legitimate) meaning for the same word.

Finally I would like to point out that I agreed with the Shirley Glass article, never said a word against it.

The horse is dead, stop beating it.

Whew, glad that one is over..............

Me too.

Today is the 11 week anniversary of my return home, to the wife and children that should have never been without me. Looking back at those 11 weeks and particularly thinking back to the way I was thinking about things is really quite satisfying. Satisfying because I can see how wrong all of my thinking was then (and how much better I am now). When I first came home I thought about the OW quite a lot, I didn't want to contact her but I wanted to know that she was alright. Those thoughts are still there but only once or twice a week and when I think about her I know straight away that I need to get my mind off her and on to something else, anything else.
I can also see that I was being tottally stupid and illogical, maybe I still am a bit but at least I'm getting it all together.

Lil told me a couple of days ago that I have now completed my list of requirments that she gave me when I came back. I have not even looked at the list in the last 11 weeks, it was emailed to me 5 months ago, and I would have to go and look at it to remember what is on the list. So I have done what Lil required without having to work my way down a list, I have probably taken longer to complete the list than some poeple would but I completed it mostly by doing what seemed right at the time. I did get a few helpful nudges in the right direction from peoples posts here, so thanks for that.

Lil and I have, together, done the ENs, LBs, Giver & Taker (G&T, hmmm I'm thirsty) 3 stages of conflict. Now we are going to do the 4 rules, buyers renters and freeloaders, and guidelines for negotiation. I am looking forward to getting these done, I find the book work part of MB to be a bit of a chore, but just like doing the dishes I know it has to be done, and the results are very pleasing.

We have been enjoying a few days with out the children. If the last few days are anything to go by we will both become very very over-weight when they leave home, we have been eating out every day. We have been motorbike riding and while out on the bike we had a bit of a chat (we have an intercom in our helmets) about the things (RC)that we want to do as soon as time allows. Walking in the mountains and camping are high on the list and so is a bit of SCUBA diving.

And did I mention that we have been eating out lots? Well, it is lunch time and Lil has the engine running, so I'd better run.
Just kidding about the engine running, but it is lunch time and I am taking her out, might get her to pay


One final thought - It has been suggested to me that "I dislike people on this forum". The truth is that I do not dislike anyone here. Some posts I find to be vexatious, but that is the nature of any forum or debate.

Have a happy day - I am

Very happy for you and Lil, Flick. There'll be some more bumps, but sounds like the tsunami has passed. Just keep tending to each other and the rewards will keep coming!

Much happiness to you both.

RHW

Sounds like you are doing well, Flick. Keep having fun with your wife. I think you HAVE done a lot of the relationship work. Hang in there.

Read me previous post before you read this one.


So things are starting to tick along quite nicely, but there is a problem. It is odd that all my life I have tried to get top marks in exams or whatever the test at hand may be and now I want to get what, on first appearances, is the poorest mark possible. OK enough of the criptic crossword clues, I WANT AN F

So what do I have to do to get an F and become a FWH?
I have done everything on Lils "coming home" list. I have done the MB programe (and continue) but Lil still will not promote me to "former", maybe I am not ready, so what do I have to do to make myself worthy of an F?
Is there something I have missed? Or is it just a matter of waiting until she feels ready to give me an F.

I know it has only been 11 weeks, I'll wait another 11 if i have to and then after 22 weeks I will wait another 22 and then if that isn't .................(this bit could get silly, you get the point) if that is what is required, then I will wait.

If there is some thing that I must do then I will do it, twice if I must.

All I want is one letter and it is not even a vowel:)

LMAO - you get it when Lil says you do and not a minute sooner. You are well on your way to earning it though.

Flick,

In this life course, an "F" isn't easily earned. While you may have come to see the light over the past weeks (and congrats for seeing it so quickly, although it probably feels like an eternity for Lil), your wife is going to take a long time to get over the incredible pain she's suffered. Think of it as her having been involved in a horrible car crash that messed up every bodily system she has. Months in hospital. Many surgeries. Much suffering. Learning to navigate the world again after the trauma. Much therapy required.

Yes, she's willing to forgive, bless her, and to work on the marriage, but her heart has taken a hit that will not heal overnight, no matter what you do.

Have patience, Flick. Just keep doing what you're doing. That, and time, will get you your coveted "F".

RHW

time....that's what it takes. 11 weeks means there are still a few raw corners she needs to take care of. Time...

Hi RHW, and others
I almost felt stupid posting my question, I was of the opinion that time was the key to the F. However the reason I posted the question is that Lil said I should ask you guys what it is that I need to do to get my F. She says there is something I need to do but she also says that she is not allowed to tell me what it is. (allowed might be the wrong word, suposed could be better?) So the question is what is it that Lil wants me to do that you guys probably know about (this is not an invitation to post information from her thread) and I do not know about, is there something in the MB programe that I have missed?
I am not really expecting to get an answer that satisfies me as if it were as simple as I had hoped the answer would have most likely been posted already.
Thanks for your input, I appreciate it.

My guess would be that she think that you still think that the OW was a wonderful woman, not just some ho. I may be looking at it through the filter of my experience, but that is something that drives me NUTS to this day.

My ex STILL thinks the OW is wonderful, even though she picked a married man, broke up the marriage and then cheated on him. To me, it was all so pointless. They ruined our marriage, broke up our family, and for what?

He does say he wishes he'd never met her, but still maintains that she is a great mother (even though she abandoned her 12 year old daughter for 4 years) and an excellent woman. Don't get me started.........

Flick,

I think Believer has nailed PART of what a BS needs to feel safe, whole, and hopeful for the marriage. As a BW, I sure agree that the WS needs to see the OP as undesirable, dangerous, etc, and spell it out to/for the BS. I've yet to hear that from my H and it bothers me no end. These aren't things you can force-feed a wayward. Gotta come FROM THEM. Otherwise it can seem to the BS as their ongoing "justification" for the A...and without hearing otherwise, we are left wondering if WS still remembers the OW as being SOOO good, even after "recommitting to the marriage." Blechh.

Another thing. Although Dr. Harley states that recovery does not require the WS to express real remorse over their selfish, hurtful behavior, I disagree. I NEED that, dammit. While I believe that what H learned from the mess he created will keep him faithful in the future (and that is HUGE), it still pains me--and others BSs, I'm sure--that he has never "gotten" the nightmare he inflicted on me. Pain that crushed me to the core and left me wondering "what could I possibly have done that deserved THIS?" I've seen my part in failing to meet needs and changed all that completely. I'm talking about the disconnect of the crime to the punishment. I believe a BS needs to see the wayward express heartfelt remorse for the A, for the lies, for the hateful things said and done...not just a global "I'm sorry."

Is it possible that Lil needs one or both of these things to heal?

I'm sure others will have more ideas for you.

RHW

rightthere - EXACTLY, it has to come from them. And I don't think Flick is there yet. My ex still isn't.

Maybe women look at if differently than men. I think there is a code of conduct between most healthy women that you DON'T go after a married man. Men might look at going after a married woman in a more competitive way.

And it shouldn't bother me at all that my ex still thinks highly of the OW, even though she dumped him. But then I think of all of the pain they caused. They hurt me, our 8 kids, my dad (who died during the affair), my mom and sister and my niece. They hurt OW's husband who was fighting in Iraq at the time, OW's daughter that she abandoned, OW's parents, her betrayed hubby's mom and sister and brother. Then there is my SIL who I was close with, my ex's brother, his wife and their kids. Also our friends, our church, and on and on.

For my ex to say that OW is a good woman is just a slap in the face to everyone.

I can feel that slap all the way to my own face, Believer, and I am affronted with you.

My FWH has not reiterated any of the glowing things he said about OW since he was actively involved in the A with her (and oh God, did that hurt). HOWEVER, he has never rescinded any of it, so I am left to assume that he still sees her that way, or at least have to wonder if he does.

But like Lil, I cannot ask him about it. I don't want to put words in his mouth. They must be HIS OWN. On the flip side, I don't want to hear that he still idealizes her, so if I ask, expecting the O&H he has been showing this past year or so, how would I handle hearing he still admires her???? Too painful to risk.

So I stay mum.

Could easily be what Lil needs too, but NO WAY will she ask. For the same reasons I can't. We'd all like to think he could figure that out, but like my FWH and your ex, it either hasn't occurred to him that she needs to hear it...or worse, he still sees OW through those rose-tinted lenses, as a wonderful, affirming force in his life. Blechhhh again. (I wish knew how to insert one of those little vomiting icon thingys.)

While I agree that we BWs must see it very differently from our waywards, I don't think the competitive angle factors into their inability or unwillingness to give us what we crave. They don't see how renouncing the OW IS part of the "just compensation" Dr. Harley so wisely prescribes. Seems incredibly arrogant and insensitive of them, but they undoubtedly have their own rationale. Maybe they just plain don't want to bring up OW's name, or relieve the shame, or remind us of what they hope we've forgotten. I know my FWH's default is to bury the past so that even HE doesn't think about it.

Wish I could take a page out of his book, but the imprint on my soul is indelible. He could erase it. Flick could erase it for Lil. But none of us should hold our breath waiting. Best we can do is work on getting over the resentment it causes.

If anyone has a better idea on how to deal with this, I sure hope you'll pipe up.

And Flick? Suggest you try this. You might just hit the jackpot.

RHW

See I believe that is an unrealistic expectation.

A WS is always vulnerable to an affair partner which is why NC is so vital.

Dr Harley talks clearly bout a low burning flame......

No doubt the WS's view of the OP changes over time and they become disgusted with their actions. It's a process. But to expect them to "see the light" and recant about OP is unrealistic. It's also likely to be unauthentic.

You are probably right, BigK. Maybe it is a female thing. So glad you are posting here and keeping us realistic.

At the risk of t/jing here but I don't think I am, it's a pertinent subject, I'll give my 0.2c worth.

The OM was my HS boyfriend. He was part of my family for 5 years when we were growing up. My father was his surrogate father after his own father left his family for the OW (ironic, huh?).

I found it very hard to see him as an evil person but he sure did an evil deed (as I did). When I bumped into him again after 2 years, I was SURE, absolutely sure that I was completely immune to him. But I wasn't.

All I can say is that now I would run a mile if I saw him. I know what my boundaries are but BigK is absolutely right, NC is for life and it's for life for a reason. I won't test my boundaries again. I learned a great deal from the events of 2 years ago. I really saw what I was doing and had done to my H. That seemed to be the missing part of our recovery.

Y'know, Flick, a long time ago on MB there were a group of us FWSs who had a thread going. Our mantra was "it is not my concern what the OW/OM does or doesn't do". It's true you know. You owe her nothing, you owe Lil everything.

FWIW I think you're doing great.

I am indifferent to the OM. He never crosses my mind. I'm sorry if that's all I can come up with and not what I know people want to hear.

Full moon?

I agree with Jen. I do think this is the most that a BS can realistically expect from the WS. Unfortunately rabid hatred by the WS for the OP is not usually possible. The BS would love it but it's not realisic IMO.

It does happen though BigK. It really does. I've seen it. I don't quite believe it, I wonder what's being hidden, but I have seen it. I've seen FWSs say they hate the OP.

One thing I am is truthful (another irony, huh?). I don't give a rat's patootie about the OM's life or what is happening to him. But, rabid hatred, truthfully no. I was too much of a willing party to hate the OM for what he did. I blame me and only me.

I tend to think this is to allay the fears of their BS and that they are willing themselves into it if you like. I do believe they could crash and burn if they breach NC.


And that is what I believe is realistic. My wife did care what happened to OM for a long time but now she is also indifferent and I am vigilant. His last breach of NC was only a few months ago. And My wife handled it properly.

That must have been so tough for you and your wife, BigK. I'm thrilled your wife handled it the right way. I'm so ashamed that I didn't when it happened to me.

This really sucks doesn't it. The need to be constantly vigilant. I see it with Rob. I see him waiting for the other shoe to drop. It won't. We don't do the "I love you's" very often (sheesh, we're 54 and 59, not that that should matter) but I said I love you as I looked into his eyes during "ahem". It was a magic moment. Palpable love.

My DD's fiance has the same name as the OM. We always say her name first. I can't start a sentence with her fiance's name. How sick and sad is that? My colleague at work has noticed (I'm sure) that I'm a bit funny when infidelity is mentioned. We were talking about my DD's vows. They want the traditional vows and my colleague and a girl who was in the same room at the time said "you don't need to say forsaking all others, that's a given". I nearly cried.

Yes it does suck.

I hear you Jen.

Hi everyone,
sorry I haven't been keeping up with the thread for a few days, my father-in-law turned up on Wednesday and we have been busy with him and with Lils birthday and then there is DD16, she has been causing more than her fair share of problems.(probably my falut).

But anyway I'm here now, for a few minutes.
I have just looked quickly at the posts and I am going to have to read them again.

I am not ignoring you, I am simply busy with my family. I am sure you all understand that.

FIL leaves today and DD16 is back to school tonight, so the world is slowing down again.


Regards

Hi

I finally got back to read all of the posts and far out there is a lot of stuff in there to think about.

The idea that Lil wants me to express my hate for the OW is fair, it is also unrealistic at this time. It is likely to remain unrealistic for a long time to come. It is not that I admire the OW, it is just that hate is such a strong emotion that it takes constant work to keep it up. Just like love needs to be worked on and maintained. What I'm trying to say is that to remain in a state of hate towards the OW I would have to constantly think about OW in a negitave way, I think my time is going to be better spent by thinking about Lil in a possitive way. So the idea that indifference is as far as most waywards can go is looking like a good theory to me. Now let me tell you that although I do not hate the OW I do hate what she (and I) did. My thoughs about the OW are limited, they do not center on the physical aspects of the A, they are more general and are more in relation to MY experiences, just like the way anyone would think about any event in the past. I guess these are just things that I have to try and remove from my thoughts.

I am going to make a few changes to replies I give to Lil when she asks me about OW. Up till now I have only really said that the only thing OW was good at was in the bedroom, this was really meant to say that OW was not good at very much at all, what Lil was hearing was that she was no good this was not a very good result. I am now going to stop saying that OW was good at anything, and that is actually pretty close to the truth, she was selfish and mean and not just to me but to just about everyone around her. How did I fall for THAT!

I love Lil and I will do anything for her.

Interesting Flick - I do not believe my wife after 3 years hates the OM either. She, like you, hates what they did but indifference comes close.

I think this is realistic.

"I am going to make a few changes to replies I give to Lil when she asks me about OW. Up till now I have only really said that the only thing OW was good at was in the bedroom, this was really meant to say that OW was not good at very much at all, what Lil was hearing was that she was no good this was not a very good result. I am now going to stop saying that OW was good at anything, and that is actually pretty close to the truth, she was selfish and mean and not just to me but to just about everyone around her. How did I fall for THAT!

I love Lil and I will do anything for her."

YAY FLICK!!!!!! This make me feel so much better!!!!!!!! And now I do understand what you meant by the only thing OW was good at. I didn't realize that before.

Take care, and prayers to you and yours.

I would much prefer that Ike feel indifference toward the OW than hate. Hate implies strong emotions and I want him to feel nothing for her. Therefore indifference is a wonderful thing.

Yes, spot on, my thoughts exactly. why waste effort on hating someone when you can put that effort into loving someone who is going to love you back.

Yes i am Flick - not Lil, she just went to bed and I am going there too.


Flick

This IS Lil, not Flick

I love you Flick

xx

Ain't that sweet? I am a lucky guy.

I have had a tuff few days.
I have cleared out the last of the stuff from my foster fathers home. It was a sad and stressful couple of days watching everything get packed into boxes and then loaded onto the truck. It was almost like having him die all over again, the finallity of his death was driven home. I was pleased to lock the door and get on the road back to Lil and home.
Then on Thursday all of the furniture and stuff arrived here and it all got unpacked and sorted. We will be sorting this stuff out for a while yet.
Seeing all of his things here was hard on both of us and a few times we just had to stop and take a few minutes to hug each other and regain our composure.
The whole experiance has made me a little bit agitated. I have been a bit blunt and snappy with Lil, only a little but that is still a little bit too much. I have tried to be extra nice to her when I realise that I have been a bit sh!tty, I think she understands, I guess I should talk to her about it.

Apart from that stuff things have been going fairly well.
We have started to make some employment plans for next year when we move away from fulltime farming, well when Lil moves away from full time farming. We are going to both work part time for part of the year and work a seasonal job for another part of the year. That will give us an income that will keep the bills paid and leave enough money to have fun and enough time so that we can get out and have that fun. In truth it sounds like a perfect plan but I am nervious about the change, I know it can be great but I fear that there is a real potential for it all to fall in a heap and be a bit of a disaster for us. Everything has risk, we know that, I guess it is just a matter of watching what is happening and if things are going pear shaped (financially) then we need to change the plan to fix things.

Lil sort of told me off today. She said it had been 14 days scince my last post on MB. She wants me to post more. I did agree to post regularly when I came home, so it is only fair that she kick me for not doing that.
I am tired and I am going to bed - it has been a long day, several long days. I am going to sleep zzzzzz zzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzz ZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZ

Flick:

I haven't posted to you in a while.

Lots of interesting stuff on your thread.

I'll start with posting. Lil thinks you should be posting more?
I would think you need to have a discussion about that. Flamingo has never posted here and never will. Many posters NEVER get to more that 25. Putting this stuff on this site, truthfully, puts it out there for ALL to see. And, for guys especially, it kind of hard to open up that way. In spite of that, you still do. That's a plus. You can use this site to explore what YOU need to explore, or just provide a guage to where you were to where you are to where you are going.

Recovery is a marathon, not a sprint. This thread can be your stopwatch to HOW you are doing.

That said, maybe Lil's request that you POST MORE, shows that you are backsliding in your recovery efforts somewhat?

Changing our very natures is hard. And since we were wayward, we have a LOT of bad habits and behaviors to change. And it is SO EASY to slide back down that slope to some of those same habits and behaviors. Doesn't mean that we end up in an A, it just means that some of those habits and behaviors are starting to seep back in. And that can be VERY Troubling for the BS to see. Your not protecting yourself. And that's maybe why Lil asks you to post more. To reinforce those boundaries, Habits and Behaviors.

You asked about WHAT you still need to do to earn the "F"?

Folks have pointed out that you should no longer be protecting the OW, and maybe you should feel "hate" towards her.

A very valid point about the "hate". To "hate" her is an active emotion. Indifference is truly the best state to get to, and how I feel about my OW after 3 some years. Flamingo may still hate the OW, and she is allowed to. And there are many things about the OW that make me angry now. However, I went in eyes open. So did she. She and I, were intent on destroying many things. It may not have been intentional in the beginning, but the continuance of it certainly moved it closer to the bulldozer of destruction. My actions during that time were bent on destroying the family that I had, and all my morals. I realize that now.

And that's how you earn your "F" You admit/understand and correct those things in yourself that allowed you to persue destruction of your family. And your betrayed spouse can see it everyday, that you are no longer persuing those actions.

Or, you can ask Lil. Just because SHE tells you what SHE needs to earn your "F", doesn't mean that you didn't earn it. And we out here are just guessing, otherwise. Each couple has what IT needs to recover. Kiwi, and BigK, needed what they needed. Flamingo and I needed what WE needed. Lil and Flick? may need many of the same things to happen, but there are particular things that you two need.

LG

Hello everybody

I'm back. Well actually I never left I just stopped posting for a few weeks.

Fair go if anyone had told me how this year was going to turn out I might have been tempted to book a year long holiday to avoid the whole year. But if there is one thing i have learnt this year it is this, 'running away will not fix anything'.

I tried to run away from a marriage that needed fixing, and guess what, it still needed fixing when I came back home.

Lil says we are four and a half months into recovery. It seems like longer, not because it is a drag or anything like that, but because I feel so very happy and comfortable here at home and when I am with Lil. I thought it would take a long time to feel this happy and settled again.

I'm not saying that everything is perfect, it is not. It is getting better and better and we now have a marriage that is working, it still needs a good tune-up to get the most out of it.

Last month was a bit of a failure as far as spending time together, there was just so much other stuff going on that we never seemed to get any real time together, this month is off to a good start and should continue to be good. It was just one of those months when nothing went right (Lil has told the story, so I won't retell it).

I had a great experiance the other day, I was driving along and I realised that I had forgotten OWs name, not her first name but her surname was just not there and I felt quite good about that. I kept on feeling good about it until I suddenly remembered her name, that really pissed me off. I know that as time goes on I will forget more and more about the A and about OW and I'm looking forward to that.

Lil and I are getting ready for a 'toy run' this weekend. A big group of motorbikes spend the day riding through several towns in our area collecting toys for kids who might not get anything for Christmas otherwise. It takes most of the day and that means that I get to spend most of the day with Lil hanging on to me, I like that! Also we get to spend the day talking to each other and we will talk about a whole big heap of nothing mostly, you know just chatting about nothing, I like that too!

Well I was going to do a big post but I am having a hard time getting my thoughts down in words today.

It's good to see you here. I'm glad to hear you are putting 15+ hours together back up on the priority list. It's easy to let it slip when things go crazy in life. And you've had plenty of crazy with all you've been dealt the last few months with your daughter.

You've mentioned that you received an inheritance. Would you consider using some of that inheritance to "tune-up" your marriage at an MB weekend? It could very well turn out to be the best investment you could make.

You could make it a nice vacation for the two of you starting it with an MB weekend.

Any thoughts?

Hi, Flick.

I too, am a FWS, having confessed to my BH 5 weeks ago. I just finished reading this post from the beginning. You are an inspriation to me as I try to repair my marriage. And you and Lil are to be commended for all the work you're putting into your relationship. Thank you for posting and letting us follow your struggles, successes, and ongoing recovery. Us other waywards can learn from and gather strength from your experience. Thank you.

I wish you and your family all the best.

-Looking4

Hi Looking4

Thanks for your reply, it has been a hard four and a half months, but well worth it.
I have not read your posts, so I don't know your story - I will take a look later (I'm keeping Lil off the computer at the moment - it is her turn).
I am interested in the fact that you are already calling yourself a FWS. After 4.5 months of recovery I still am not regarded as F, just a WS. Have you earned your F? I think I am getting close but still not there yet.
Just something for you to think about, and like I said I don't know your story yet.

Hey tst
nice to hear from you again.
I have an opinion (and thoughts) on just about everything
My thoughts on your suggestion are

1) Great idea.
2) We are already making one trip to the States early next year and our time is too short to fit in any thing beyond what we have planned already
3) The majority of my inheritance is not cash. It is investments and property, and with the present economic situation it would be foolish to cash any of it in at the moment. I am not saying that our investments are more important than our marriage, I make investment decissions in consoltation with Lil and we are in agreement.
4)With the up coming change in our employment and general lifestyle it is important to protect our investments.

Are MB weekends held anywhere else apart from USA? Where can I find a list of upcoming weekends?

I think this is something that Lil and I would be keen to look at a little further down the track, when we are a little more settled after we get off this farm and have some real time to do our own thing.

MB Weekend

I'm a self-proclaimed, FWS, Flick. But my husband telling me that he "believes me" when I answer his questions, is a big step that helps me believe I deserve the "F".

I know what happened. I know how I got into the affair mess. I know how it ended. And I know what I am doing and what my husband is doing to make sure I don't ever do it again. I'm learning and living MBs, I'm in therapy, I'm praying, communicating O&H with my H, and confessing to friends, family, and church members who can help me stay honest. Radical Honesty is my mantra. I know I can't ever, ever, ever hurt anyone again as I have hurt my H. And I don't ever want to feel like I did during, after, and since the affair -- the guilt, remorse, shame, lack of self-respect, hurt, disgrace... I will never do it again. Nothing is worth the pain I've caused so many people, and the loss of dignity, integrity, friendships, and possibly my family that I'm experiencing... I know I'm a FWS as long as I stay honest about my ENs and everything else, whether my H stays with me or not.

My story: Cheated on my then BF in 1992. Married BF in 1994. We've been dating (off and on) or married 25 years. Started drifting apart when 5-year-old was born. Married co-worker with 3 kids told me Feb '08 that he was attracted to me and had been for 18 months. Totally unsuspected. (We had been good friends for 5 years.) We live two time zones away but would be on same business trips 2 to 3 times a year. I denied him a couple of advances. We started talking, IMing, texting, and emailing more. I shared with the OM (a Christian like me) my broken marriage stories. Started the EA. Became a PA when we were on a trip in April. We both felt guilt and fought the attraction. He wanted to stay with his wife, I needed to fix or end my M. We cooled it the end of May/early June. OM's BW discovered the PA 6/21. NC text from them to me that same day. Last contact occured 7/24 when I learned I was going to be laid off and I wanted to know what co-workers knew of our affair. (OM and I had be on work-related email threads and on conference calls but never one-on-one after 6/21.) OM and BW replied to my email together. That was final contact. I confessed to my BH 10/26 of last spring's PA and confessed to my pre-marriage infidelity 10/29. Working like crazy to stay married to BH.

Good luck to you.

And I am a self-proclaimed astronaut, it dosent mean I'm going up to the space station anytime soon - or ever.

I firmly believe that the F should come from the BS, not the WS. Only the BS can truely see the changes that have occured outwardly, you may have chaged a lot of things inside of you but it is all for nothing if those changes are not showing on the outside, where other people can see them.


Yes your A had a big impact on your life. But it is nothing compared to what you made other people go through. I hope you continue to feel shame for a long time to come, you should, everytime you think of the A you should feel shame and guilt, and use those feelings as tools to protect your family from another shameful event. I still feel shame and guilt, even though my marriage is in a wonderful recovery, they serve me as reminders of why I am still having to put in the extra effort and go the extra mile for my W.

Oh this world is full of "Christians like me" and you and your OM an my OW and the list could be very very long. Being a Christian makes very little difference. When you are sinning and outside of Gods will for your life it may as well be a plastic badge on your shirt, it is just a label, it won't help you or me! The only thing that can truely help us is the grace of God when it is our time to be judged.
A sinning Christian and a sinning non-Christian, which one is better?

Hey good luck with everything. I do hope you see a glorious recovery in your marriage. Just remember that your H is angry with you because you did a bad thing. It will take him quite some time to recover from that and you are the one who will have to show him that it is worth his while. Is he also doing MB? I hope he is.

Thanks for that.

Flick, I've seen so much progress in you the past few months. That makes me happy for you and for for Lil. She seems to be an amazing woman, and with all she's had going on, she needs you now more than ever.

I pray for your recovery to continue.

15+ hours. Lil and I just about did it in one day! OK not quite. But we did a full 7 hours of uninterupted quality time. We both had sore bottoms when it was over but it was a great day. We went on a bike ride around the mountain that is in our back yard. It was a Christmas fundraiser, collecting toys for children who might not get anything else.
The intercom on the bike was never quite for long, we kept finding new things to talk about, until we turned and headed for home so we could each go back to work, the last stretch was a bit quiter as we had run out of things to say and run out of energy and just wanted a rest before milking all the cows.

We are now looking at our next motor cycle adventure, somewhere nice and quite, a place where the roads are level and the car drivers open their eyes and see you before they cut you off. A place where motor cycles are praised for their tiny little carbon footprints and gas is still under a buck a gallon.

Dreams are free

Sounds wonderful, Flick! I think you are both making love bank deposits with the motorbike riding!

It has been a while since I have written.
I could make all sorts of excusses, the long hot summer days, the fact that I have been sooooo busy at work (I haven't) and the rising cost of electricity making the computer to costly to run. ALL A LOAD OF RUBBISH, I have just been to slack!

Lil and I celebrated our 13th wedding Annv at the begining of January and we got each other nothing. This is normal, it falls so close after Christmas that we are all gifted out, we do not want to get anything else, we get gifts for each other on other days - days that have no special meaning. When I say we give each other nothing I mean nothing solid, nothing material (no I am not trying to hint at sex - we didn't partake this year). This year I gave Lil the words to a song (it's on the music thread) and she gave me an F as in FWH. It is a gift that I wish I had never needed, a gift that I am proud to have earned and a gift that I will treasure always as a reminder of how close I came to destroying my marriage and how lucky I am to have a wife who cares enough to fight to get me back and to fight to get our marriage back. I am one lucky man.
So how is it all going?
Lil and I drove past the OW house, which has been on the market for several months, she has not lived there in that time - if she had I would not have driven past it, it is on a main route so is a bit unavoidable, any way we saw that the house had sold and we were pleased that by the house being sold it would remove OW from our district, one less reason for her to come back here. It also stops that house being HER house, now it is someone elses house and that does not stop the memories but it does put some distance between the memories and the now. What I mean by memories is more of the "big picture" memories, I make a big effort to not revisit the details of what took place, that could be like an alchoholic thinking about how good it used to be to have a few drinks and then before they know it they have a drink in their hand.

So how is the recovery going? I reckon we have to be doing very well, we are making each other happy and spending time together and getting through some hard family times together and we know we can rely on each other to be there and hold each other up when the going gets hard.

We had the greatest time away the other week, camping and motorbiking and eating all the wrong food and drinking just a little more than we should, it was great. Not too long now untill the next adventure.............

It all sounds too possitive to be true dosen't it. Well there are still days when I do think about the OW, this has been fueled to some degree by a breach of NC, NOT BY ME OR LIL, a friend or aquaintance (I don't know who) of OW contacted Lil and said that OW has a new boyfriend, I thought about that a little bit for a few days and then realised that it was a good thing and it had nothing to do with me. It is a good thing because it puts me out of her mind (possibly) and that could strengthen NC and it has nothing to with me because she is in the past and it is a past that is not being preserved in a favourable way in my mind.
I wish Lil had not shared it with me but it was a breach of NC (sort of) and she had to tell me about it, that's the rules. Any way we are doing what we do best, we are moving on.

DD16 is being a real pain in the neck now, her latest comunications are just completely off the scale - the details are elsewhere on the MB forums so I will not repeat the tale - this is putting Lil and I under a lot of pressure and the good news is we are getting through it quite well together.
I did have one bad day when I completely lost my cool with DD16 and had a big ugly angry outbust at her, not the best way to handle things.

Well time is ticking on and I am getting sleepy so I am going to bed - good night.

Bump for Coho