Today is the 11 week anniversary of my return home, to the wife and children that should have never been without me. Looking back at those 11 weeks and particularly thinking back to the way I was thinking about things is really quite satisfying. Satisfying because I can see how wrong all of my thinking was then (and how much better I am now). When I first came home I thought about the OW quite a lot, I didn't want to contact her but I wanted to know that she was alright. Those thoughts are still there but only once or twice a week and when I think about her I know straight away that I need to get my mind off her and on to something else, anything else.
I can also see that I was being tottally stupid and illogical, maybe I still am a bit but at least I'm getting it all together.

Lil told me a couple of days ago that I have now completed my list of requirments that she gave me when I came back. I have not even looked at the list in the last 11 weeks, it was emailed to me 5 months ago, and I would have to go and look at it to remember what is on the list. So I have done what Lil required without having to work my way down a list, I have probably taken longer to complete the list than some poeple would but I completed it mostly by doing what seemed right at the time. I did get a few helpful nudges in the right direction from peoples posts here, so thanks for that.

Lil and I have, together, done the ENs, LBs, Giver & Taker (G&T, hmmm I'm thirsty) 3 stages of conflict. Now we are going to do the 4 rules, buyers renters and freeloaders, and guidelines for negotiation. I am looking forward to getting these done, I find the book work part of MB to be a bit of a chore, but just like doing the dishes I know it has to be done, and the results are very pleasing.

We have been enjoying a few days with out the children. If the last few days are anything to go by we will both become very very over-weight when they leave home, we have been eating out every day. We have been motorbike riding and while out on the bike we had a bit of a chat (we have an intercom in our helmets) about the things (RC)that we want to do as soon as time allows. Walking in the mountains and camping are high on the list and so is a bit of SCUBA diving.

And did I mention that we have been eating out lots? Well, it is lunch time and Lil has the engine running, so I'd better run.
Just kidding about the engine running, but it is lunch time and I am taking her out, might get her to pay


One final thought - It has been suggested to me that "I dislike people on this forum". The truth is that I do not dislike anyone here. Some posts I find to be vexatious, but that is the nature of any forum or debate.

Have a happy day - I am

Very happy for you and Lil, Flick. There'll be some more bumps, but sounds like the tsunami has passed. Just keep tending to each other and the rewards will keep coming!

Much happiness to you both.

RHW

Sounds like you are doing well, Flick. Keep having fun with your wife. I think you HAVE done a lot of the relationship work. Hang in there.

Read me previous post before you read this one.


So things are starting to tick along quite nicely, but there is a problem. It is odd that all my life I have tried to get top marks in exams or whatever the test at hand may be and now I want to get what, on first appearances, is the poorest mark possible. OK enough of the criptic crossword clues, I WANT AN F

So what do I have to do to get an F and become a FWH?
I have done everything on Lils "coming home" list. I have done the MB programe (and continue) but Lil still will not promote me to "former", maybe I am not ready, so what do I have to do to make myself worthy of an F?
Is there something I have missed? Or is it just a matter of waiting until she feels ready to give me an F.

I know it has only been 11 weeks, I'll wait another 11 if i have to and then after 22 weeks I will wait another 22 and then if that isn't .................(this bit could get silly, you get the point) if that is what is required, then I will wait.

If there is some thing that I must do then I will do it, twice if I must.

All I want is one letter and it is not even a vowel:)

LMAO - you get it when Lil says you do and not a minute sooner. You are well on your way to earning it though.

Flick,

In this life course, an "F" isn't easily earned. While you may have come to see the light over the past weeks (and congrats for seeing it so quickly, although it probably feels like an eternity for Lil), your wife is going to take a long time to get over the incredible pain she's suffered. Think of it as her having been involved in a horrible car crash that messed up every bodily system she has. Months in hospital. Many surgeries. Much suffering. Learning to navigate the world again after the trauma. Much therapy required.

Yes, she's willing to forgive, bless her, and to work on the marriage, but her heart has taken a hit that will not heal overnight, no matter what you do.

Have patience, Flick. Just keep doing what you're doing. That, and time, will get you your coveted "F".

RHW

time....that's what it takes. 11 weeks means there are still a few raw corners she needs to take care of. Time...

Hi RHW, and others
I almost felt stupid posting my question, I was of the opinion that time was the key to the F. However the reason I posted the question is that Lil said I should ask you guys what it is that I need to do to get my F. She says there is something I need to do but she also says that she is not allowed to tell me what it is. (allowed might be the wrong word, suposed could be better?) So the question is what is it that Lil wants me to do that you guys probably know about (this is not an invitation to post information from her thread) and I do not know about, is there something in the MB programe that I have missed?
I am not really expecting to get an answer that satisfies me as if it were as simple as I had hoped the answer would have most likely been posted already.
Thanks for your input, I appreciate it.

My guess would be that she think that you still think that the OW was a wonderful woman, not just some ho. I may be looking at it through the filter of my experience, but that is something that drives me NUTS to this day.

My ex STILL thinks the OW is wonderful, even though she picked a married man, broke up the marriage and then cheated on him. To me, it was all so pointless. They ruined our marriage, broke up our family, and for what?

He does say he wishes he'd never met her, but still maintains that she is a great mother (even though she abandoned her 12 year old daughter for 4 years) and an excellent woman. Don't get me started.........

Flick,

I think Believer has nailed PART of what a BS needs to feel safe, whole, and hopeful for the marriage. As a BW, I sure agree that the WS needs to see the OP as undesirable, dangerous, etc, and spell it out to/for the BS. I've yet to hear that from my H and it bothers me no end. These aren't things you can force-feed a wayward. Gotta come FROM THEM. Otherwise it can seem to the BS as their ongoing "justification" for the A...and without hearing otherwise, we are left wondering if WS still remembers the OW as being SOOO good, even after "recommitting to the marriage." Blechh.

Another thing. Although Dr. Harley states that recovery does not require the WS to express real remorse over their selfish, hurtful behavior, I disagree. I NEED that, dammit. While I believe that what H learned from the mess he created will keep him faithful in the future (and that is HUGE), it still pains me--and others BSs, I'm sure--that he has never "gotten" the nightmare he inflicted on me. Pain that crushed me to the core and left me wondering "what could I possibly have done that deserved THIS?" I've seen my part in failing to meet needs and changed all that completely. I'm talking about the disconnect of the crime to the punishment. I believe a BS needs to see the wayward express heartfelt remorse for the A, for the lies, for the hateful things said and done...not just a global "I'm sorry."

Is it possible that Lil needs one or both of these things to heal?

I'm sure others will have more ideas for you.

RHW

rightthere - EXACTLY, it has to come from them. And I don't think Flick is there yet. My ex still isn't.

Maybe women look at if differently than men. I think there is a code of conduct between most healthy women that you DON'T go after a married man. Men might look at going after a married woman in a more competitive way.

And it shouldn't bother me at all that my ex still thinks highly of the OW, even though she dumped him. But then I think of all of the pain they caused. They hurt me, our 8 kids, my dad (who died during the affair), my mom and sister and my niece. They hurt OW's husband who was fighting in Iraq at the time, OW's daughter that she abandoned, OW's parents, her betrayed hubby's mom and sister and brother. Then there is my SIL who I was close with, my ex's brother, his wife and their kids. Also our friends, our church, and on and on.

For my ex to say that OW is a good woman is just a slap in the face to everyone.

I can feel that slap all the way to my own face, Believer, and I am affronted with you.

My FWH has not reiterated any of the glowing things he said about OW since he was actively involved in the A with her (and oh God, did that hurt). HOWEVER, he has never rescinded any of it, so I am left to assume that he still sees her that way, or at least have to wonder if he does.

But like Lil, I cannot ask him about it. I don't want to put words in his mouth. They must be HIS OWN. On the flip side, I don't want to hear that he still idealizes her, so if I ask, expecting the O&H he has been showing this past year or so, how would I handle hearing he still admires her???? Too painful to risk.

So I stay mum.

Could easily be what Lil needs too, but NO WAY will she ask. For the same reasons I can't. We'd all like to think he could figure that out, but like my FWH and your ex, it either hasn't occurred to him that she needs to hear it...or worse, he still sees OW through those rose-tinted lenses, as a wonderful, affirming force in his life. Blechhhh again. (I wish knew how to insert one of those little vomiting icon thingys.)

While I agree that we BWs must see it very differently from our waywards, I don't think the competitive angle factors into their inability or unwillingness to give us what we crave. They don't see how renouncing the OW IS part of the "just compensation" Dr. Harley so wisely prescribes. Seems incredibly arrogant and insensitive of them, but they undoubtedly have their own rationale. Maybe they just plain don't want to bring up OW's name, or relieve the shame, or remind us of what they hope we've forgotten. I know my FWH's default is to bury the past so that even HE doesn't think about it.

Wish I could take a page out of his book, but the imprint on my soul is indelible. He could erase it. Flick could erase it for Lil. But none of us should hold our breath waiting. Best we can do is work on getting over the resentment it causes.

If anyone has a better idea on how to deal with this, I sure hope you'll pipe up.

And Flick? Suggest you try this. You might just hit the jackpot.

RHW

See I believe that is an unrealistic expectation.

A WS is always vulnerable to an affair partner which is why NC is so vital.

Dr Harley talks clearly bout a low burning flame......

No doubt the WS's view of the OP changes over time and they become disgusted with their actions. It's a process. But to expect them to "see the light" and recant about OP is unrealistic. It's also likely to be unauthentic.

You are probably right, BigK. Maybe it is a female thing. So glad you are posting here and keeping us realistic.

At the risk of t/jing here but I don't think I am, it's a pertinent subject, I'll give my 0.2c worth.

The OM was my HS boyfriend. He was part of my family for 5 years when we were growing up. My father was his surrogate father after his own father left his family for the OW (ironic, huh?).

I found it very hard to see him as an evil person but he sure did an evil deed (as I did). When I bumped into him again after 2 years, I was SURE, absolutely sure that I was completely immune to him. But I wasn't.

All I can say is that now I would run a mile if I saw him. I know what my boundaries are but BigK is absolutely right, NC is for life and it's for life for a reason. I won't test my boundaries again. I learned a great deal from the events of 2 years ago. I really saw what I was doing and had done to my H. That seemed to be the missing part of our recovery.

Y'know, Flick, a long time ago on MB there were a group of us FWSs who had a thread going. Our mantra was "it is not my concern what the OW/OM does or doesn't do". It's true you know. You owe her nothing, you owe Lil everything.

FWIW I think you're doing great.

I am indifferent to the OM. He never crosses my mind. I'm sorry if that's all I can come up with and not what I know people want to hear.

Full moon?

I agree with Jen. I do think this is the most that a BS can realistically expect from the WS. Unfortunately rabid hatred by the WS for the OP is not usually possible. The BS would love it but it's not realisic IMO.

It does happen though BigK. It really does. I've seen it. I don't quite believe it, I wonder what's being hidden, but I have seen it. I've seen FWSs say they hate the OP.

One thing I am is truthful (another irony, huh?). I don't give a rat's patootie about the OM's life or what is happening to him. But, rabid hatred, truthfully no. I was too much of a willing party to hate the OM for what he did. I blame me and only me.

I tend to think this is to allay the fears of their BS and that they are willing themselves into it if you like. I do believe they could crash and burn if they breach NC.


And that is what I believe is realistic. My wife did care what happened to OM for a long time but now she is also indifferent and I am vigilant. His last breach of NC was only a few months ago. And My wife handled it properly.

That must have been so tough for you and your wife, BigK. I'm thrilled your wife handled it the right way. I'm so ashamed that I didn't when it happened to me.

This really sucks doesn't it. The need to be constantly vigilant. I see it with Rob. I see him waiting for the other shoe to drop. It won't. We don't do the "I love you's" very often (sheesh, we're 54 and 59, not that that should matter) but I said I love you as I looked into his eyes during "ahem". It was a magic moment. Palpable love.

My DD's fiance has the same name as the OM. We always say her name first. I can't start a sentence with her fiance's name. How sick and sad is that? My colleague at work has noticed (I'm sure) that I'm a bit funny when infidelity is mentioned. We were talking about my DD's vows. They want the traditional vows and my colleague and a girl who was in the same room at the time said "you don't need to say forsaking all others, that's a given". I nearly cried.

Yes it does suck.

I hear you Jen.