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SWW,

I think you need to stay to your plan. You know that she has a prepaid cell phone, you found the wrapper under the bed. You have also found condom boxes with missing condoms. There is just far too much evidence that shows that she is living a lifestyle that is not in support of your MARRIAGE! In addition, you have the suspicions regarding female interaction.

I think she will tell you whatever you want to hear. That is why you have to do Plan B before you go to Plan D IMO, because now if you take it back, she knows that she still can play you and have total control.

Plan B is about you getting in total control of what affects YOU and then making a choice of what to do from there.

I don't believe that you will TRULY know what to do until you have done a DARK Plan B and removed yourself from HER and this situation and then processed it. Perhaps during that Plan B, she will follow through on some of your requirements for reconciliation and you will begin to see some actual ACTION steps to recovery. Right now, she just talks.

Going to counseling should be in your Plan B letter, along with many other things. She needs to put her money where her mouth is.

IMO, if you continue to ask her for D, it will just complicate things because you aren't really ready for D, you are just ready for the pain to end.

Last edited by onlyUcan; 09/24/08 05:49 PM.

BS(me) - 40
FWH - 36

6 years of discovery.
Now - one day at a time....
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I haven't posted in awhile...but I agree completely with Only. She has shown you that she isn't invested in your M and now that she is feeling like you are really pulling away, she is trying to reel you back in. I think that you are susceptible to this manipulation (as many of us are) because you really WANT it to work out. The problem is, she knows that.

You need to go completely DARK. No contact with her for a length of time. Get in touch with what YOU want without allowing her the opportunity to muddy your thinking with her words. She needs to SHOW you with ACTIONS. And those actions need to be DRAMATIC. Every time you have contact with her, she is able to pull you back in just enough to make you question your decisions. You need to withdraw enough that you can really FEEL what your decision is.

I have had a HUGE change in my recovery, but it was something that came after I let go of my H and started to seriously focus on MY needs, MY desires, MY happiness separate from him. He may have sensed it, or it may have been the right time...either way, something shifted and I no longer feel like H is "sort of" former. I have absolutely NO DOUBT that he is committed to our recovery. It is a certainty that was missing from our recovery before.

Stay the course.

MogiSola


BW (me)
FWH (him - he's earning the F)
3 boys (4, 5, and 7)
M 1997
LT EA/PA 2004-2007
D-Day #1 Feb 2006
Joined MB.
D-Day #2 Feb 2008
D-Day #3 Aug 2008
Began REAL recovery Sept 2008.


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SWW,

You are making alpha-male money, why do you put up with this non-sense. Please take an inventory of your self-worth, don't tie your conception of yourself to this nutcase. I think you need to move on and get a woman worthy of your deciency, give her as little as possible. You've spoiled her rotten from what I've read.

God Bless
NJ

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Originally Posted by sickwithworry
JKT,

"The above is possible. But she also might be realizing that she lost you.

It happened to me. As fast as you can flip a coin, it all changed."


What happened in your situation if you don't mind me asking?

Sorry for the delay. Preps for FY09 have me juggling. Not I don't mind sharing, but it will be a short cliff notes version.

I was hit with the I Love you but I'm not in love with you speech about 4 months before retirement.

I had no idea of an A. I was alway comfortable having a very traditional wife, and could honestly deploy without concern for her actions. That being said, I took advantage, I did more than my fair share of abusing our relationship. When I was not deployed my time and activities took priority. I was very selfish. She also knew I'd had my own A 7 years prior.

That set the table for destruction.

I had no clue her desire for a D was result of her involvement with OM when she gave me the ILYBNILWY speech.

My response was all wrong. Begging to work it out, LB's, etc..

Months later, and nearing retirement, I gave in to D. I began job hunting actively, and found a position working in support of the aircraft I was so familiar with. Only problem was the location was 200 miles away from home.

I had dinner plans with my W one evening but cancelled our plans in order to met a friend who was in town partially to recruit me for a position.

The wife was suspicious as to why I had cancelled our plans considering how hard I'd been working to be a good husband. Her imagination got the best of her, she thought I was out with another woman. She called numerous time while I was out but my phone was shut off.

After dinner I had a dozen missed calls. I went to a quiet area at the lake to think about what I was going to do. I had pretty much checked out on the idea our M would survive. I now needed to plan the fallout of taking this position. mainly I had to consider the kids. I was not going to see them daily, custody issues, etc.

It was probably midnight when I got home. She was waiting on the porch bench less than happy.

I got questioned as to who I was with, where did she live, etc. I laughed... "Not a good response". I asked her why is it she was acting so jealous considering she wanted a D so badly?

When she got done, and gave me the opportunity to talk, I explained what I had been doing, and why I was out so late.

We "I" went to be about 1:30ish. By 3AM she woke me up crying that she wanted to work on the M.

She realized I had given into her request for D, that I was done fighting to save it. That our M and family was about to become broken at her request. Now the only hope for the M remained with her.

She went back and forth on her decision to work on the M, or persue D a couple times over the next month. Come to find out later, it was because of OM, who I was still unaware of.

Shortly after, she broke off contact with him. He showed up at a B-day party he knew she would be attending. Attempted contact but was shot down. He got jealous "Please", and decided I should know about their A.



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Justkeeptrying,

Very similar situations. My WW was convinced I was having an A. I wasn't but I was acting in a way that convinced her I was due to a female officer friend of mine. I now see the error of my ways in that regard. I went to dinner with her in DC one night. I told my WW I was going beforehand etc. and she responded "great", I now find out she was wildly jealous and told all her girfriends about it. It honestly never entered my mind that she would see more to it than what it was, friendship and professional. WRONG of me!

Heading home this weekend. We'll see what happens. I can't tell if WW is in withdrawals or is still in active/occasional A. I just don't know. I think she is going back and forth like a yo-yo because even if she is not sleeiping with OM charlie, she still bumps into him from time to time. Despite promises of NC etc. and my confronting them both it still occasionally happens.

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Okay SWW...TRUE story from the ABW3 file.

Twelve years ago I was managing a retail jewelry store at a mall in a nearby town. WW's mom was living in VA and WW was planning to take a trip up to spend the weekend and take our then 1 year old son. It was a Friday and I thought she was in route to VA but WW had instead decided to surprise me by staying home, getting a sitter, and coming to the mall to meet me at closing.

While leaving the mall that night, a female employee explained to me that she had parked her vehicle on the opposite side of the mall from the rest of us. I offered to take her to her car and instructed her to get in mine. Just as we both settled in for our journey "around the mall," WW pulls up in front of my car and automatically assumes I am about to dishonor my wedding vows and jealously accuses me of having an A.

The truth was that I was very innocently looking out for the safety of an employee. Within one week, WW starts the whole ILYBINILWY talk and begins spending evenings "out with friends."

Niavely, I trusted her and allowed 3-4 weeks to pass before becoming suspicious of her.

Long story short...this was the genesis of WW's first affair with our then pastor's son. Once I found out, I threatened him(sound familiar?) and even chased him once down a state highway pledging to "kill him (I'm sure I wouldn't have)."

After a 3 week separation, WW returned home, without any remorse, and I completely ignored what had happened without any consequences to her or the M. I THOUGHT I was doing what was best for my son.

Ten years later, I learn she is having an EA with a coworker...a chaplain.

Six months ago, she states the whole ILYBINILWY bull again and I learn about the new chaplain-OM. She even rewinds time back and says that she only left the original OM (WAY back when...) because he was afraid of me and fled. Justifying her current actions by re-writing our entire marital history.

You see, MY actions got me what I wanted then, but where have they gotten me now. I don't regret R 12 years ago because my two daughters were the end result...but, personally, I would have enjoyed twelve years of the happiness I'm experienceing now had I just followed the MB Plan (which I had never heard of then).

LESSON: Stop analyzing emotionally and follow the plans you've already pledged to initiate. Your sanity, happiness, and children are depending on it. Trust me!

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abandonedwith3 et. al.,

After reading yours and JKT's posts I am really at a crossroads. As I posted I am heading home tomorrow.

OnlyU advised to do the Plan B letter first and do a dark Plan B.

Funny thing is, I really am not sure I even want to go thru with it. If I get the jist of your post AB3, you seem to be saying that our WW's had it "programmed into their brains" to have an A (A"S) and used suspiscion of A's on our part to act out on what they wanted to do anyway.

I think my WW is really depressed and walled off emotionally. I think she needs help with it from a professional. She has closed off ties to anyone from her past including her family and old friends. She goes to bed by 7:30 PM every night, unless it's a party night, and is, I don't know just strange.

But you know, I can't beg someone to talk to me or get help. Oh sure she talks to me when she gets the impression I am going to bail, but other than that it's just updates on the kids etc.

My dad is in town and she hasn't brought my kids over once to see him. I think she is scared/embarassed because she knows he knows all about the A and doesn't want to face him. He is living most of the year on his ranch in Idaho and so rarely gets to see the kids, I'll remedy that this weekend.

I'll post a plan B letter here for y'all's inputs if you would be so kind, and I will try it, but at this point I am feeling that if she cannot make the effort to at least discuss these issues and wants to live with her head stuck in the sand forever, where does that leave me?

On another note, if anyone can answer this for me I would appreciate it. I have Sprint service for our cell phones. WW texts me while I am in New Orleans last week and since she is in my contacts her text comes in as from "WW" with her phone number. Then a couple of hours later she texts me again, but now her text screen name comes in as: "WW z1nwip, nip2. 1r" or something like that but with the same phone number. A series of numbers, letters, period and spaces. Being continuosly suspicious I wonder if she traded out her SIM card, or what?

We BH's make ourselves crazy, and I for one am past tired of it.

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A new SIM card should require a new phone number. Does she have a phone that sends "email" texts as well? I would call Sprint and ask them.

As for the Plan B letter, it is for YOU. Ab3 can tell you his input on Plan B since he did a Dark one. I suggested it because I think it will be the stage that you will be able to put all your fears and questions about R to rest.

Honestly, I don't see her ever changing and I'm hoping you get a D and get those kids out of that environment. (trust me, I am pro-Marriage)

You do need a Plan though, a plan that you can stick to so that you are always moving forward at some pace.


BS(me) - 40
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6 years of discovery.
Now - one day at a time....
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Like OnlyU, I too am 100%, absolutely, positively PRO-MARRIAGE!

Unfortunately, our WW's and society in general have this idea that marriage is a 50/50 partnership. It is not!

A successful marriage (like I'm an authority, LOL) is BOTH parties giving 90% while only expecting 10% in return.

SWW...you and I have not had that!

I am with OnlyU on the Plan B. Do it for your own sanity and to give WW the realization that you can and will go on without her. My guess is that yours will be a very short Plan B (mine was only about 6 weeks!).

Look at Plan B as your "Buffer Zone" between the drama and normalcy. Your life WILL become normal again and you will clearly be able to make decisions without so much "noise."

You seem convinced of what will eventually happen. Like OnlyU, I see D in your future as well. But...we aren't living your life...you are. You have to make your own decisions and consider MORE THAN ANYTHING the ramifications for your children.

God Bless!

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A new SIM card can be assigned to an existing phone number at anytime. With or without a new phone.

For example: A SIM card goes bad. The phone works fine. You call the service provider and active the SIM ID to the exsisting device. It nothing more than matching the card to the IMEI number on the phone.

Although SIM card failure is abnormal.

The strange display you received might be as simple as a different carriers phone towers processing. In otherwords, don't read into it unless you see a pattern in the same geographical location.

Good luck this weekend. Have fun, with or without her!

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thank you all,

heading out now. couldn't have maintained my sanity or sense of balance without you!!!

SWW

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Folks,

One last thought, stopped on the way home. If this thought is a fundamental aspect of this whole process and has been exhaustively discussed please forgive me all.

Upon reflection it seems to me that there is no desperation quite like that of a BS. It is the desperation to "save the M" right?? After all Marriage is a sacred thing, right. That's what we are fighting for, right? I think not.

The desperation of the BS has its roots in selfishness. Now don't get me wrong or anything, but i think if one truly analyzes it, it is the desperate pain that arises when someone closest to us has wronged us severely in the most personal way that causes us to react in a non-traditional way. In most circumstances we would lash out at that individual and cut them off without a second thought.

But we BS's try to get the offender to love us again; not for the sake of the M, but I think at its root, for our own self esteem. It leads us to very muddled thinking I believe.


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Makes sense. If one is just in it to mark territory, then this is not love.


But I, being poor, have only my dreams; I have spread my dreams under your feet; Tread softly because you tread on my dreams -Yeats
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Originally Posted by sickwithworry
Folks,

One last thought, stopped on the way home. If this thought is a fundamental aspect of this whole process and has been exhaustively discussed please forgive me all.

Upon reflection it seems to me that there is no desperation quite like that of a BS. It is the desperation to "save the M" right?? After all Marriage is a sacred thing, right. That's what we are fighting for, right? I think not.

The desperation of the BS has its roots in selfishness. Now don't get me wrong or anything, but i think if one truly analyzes it, it is the desperate pain that arises when someone closest to us has wronged us severely in the most personal way that causes us to react in a non-traditional way. In most circumstances we would lash out at that individual and cut them off without a second thought.

But we BS's try to get the offender to love us again; not for the sake of the M, but I think at its root, for our own self esteem. It leads us to very muddled thinking I believe.

Are you fighting from a competitive desire to save self esteem? Sure you are.

The fact that you recognise it means it's becoming a larger percentage than it should.




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There is truth to what you are saying when there has been no boundaries or boundary enforcements. This has been described as "enmeshment" and I must agree that I have suffered from this.

When we are not clearly defined as who we are and we are dependent upon another person to make us feel good, we are fighting for that "normalcy" that we have created.

I don't think married couples set out to do this, but it happens. It can happen in parent-child relationships as well.

That's just what I have learned through the whole process. The more I loved myself and learned to be whole and complete as "me", the less I was looking for reconciliation to be my fix all.


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Yes...Yes...and, YES!

I think you've got it SWW.

We are "fixers" and think we HAVE to fix the M if that's what's broken.

We want what we can't have and will figure out how to get it at almost ANY cost.

You've figured out what I finally did...I was trying to save my M just for the sake of my M...you know, to prove I could.

Truth is, I could have...still can if I choose. I'm still getting texts asking to come home from WW.

Funny thing though, while I would have killed to have gotten those when I was still at your stage in all of this, now I just ignore them.

When it stops being about pure, unconditional love, it's time to re-asses efforts at R.

I was desperately trying to save a M where love had dissappeared years ago.

We guys deserve the fairytale too you know?

Now, you're seeing the forrest more and less of the trees. Get into Plan B and make the decisions that are best for you and your children, then proceed accordingly.

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SWW,

I hope you pulled the Plan B trigger. I suspect you are rightfully coming to the end of desire to fight for your M.

At no fault to you, part time, long distance plan A is not getting it done.

-JKT

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Hi folks,

boy could I have used y'all insight last week but circumstances precluded me from posting. Sorry if this seems like a shameless bump, will post more in a bit.

AB3, JKT, OnlyU I am on the train! Whoo Whoo!

Well, maybe, but where is the train going?

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Well,

I could use some advice. I was at home all last week. My dad sold his house so I spent most of the week helping him clear out stuff to move to his ranch, as well as going thru 40 years of accumulated things, many of sentimental value. It was a rough week to be honest.

Since I am not yet in plan B I took the advice and did plan A while at home. WW is still not able/willing to talk about the future of our R, or any real serious issues at all, but we had a lot of laughs. It was, to be honest almost like we were in the dating stage again. She hugged me and kissed me and we hung out a lot. I could tell she was really trying to get along. I did tell her on Tuesday we really needed to talk though about the future and could we have lunch? She said sure and suggested a Mexican place we all used to go to.

We went thursday and had a 2 hour lunch, just chatting and babbling and laughing etc. about nothing in particular. As we got ready to go however, I suddenly realized that we hadn't discussed anything in regard to our future. So I said, hey, can we talk about stuff for a minute? She said ok and the conv. went something like this: (I am sure I am going to get some 2x4's for this)

Me: I think we need to talk about our R and where things are going?

WW: I thought we were, this was great, one of the nicest times we have ever had.

Me: I know, I agree. Maybe I just need to hear something from you that is more definitive, like yes I still love you and want to make it work. Something, other than acting like we are just friends.

WW: Why do you have to ruin it? You should know me well enough by now after 24 years that I am not good at expressing my feelings. And I don't want to. I don't want to answer any more questions about OM charlie, and I just can't commit to anything right now.

Me: It upsets me that you still haven't told me what I asked you about the A. I know it was going on a lot longer than you say and was much more involved. You just seem incapable of telling me the truth. I just don't see how I can trust you right now.

WW: I have told you the truth and if anything 5-6 times might have even been a little embellished since you seemed to be so convinced there was more to it. It seems though that now we can only focus on my A. That nothing else that happened between us matters and I am the only bad guy in this, your drinking was a real problem and I think it still is and if you can't do anything about that...(gets up and starts to walk out.)

Me: Stop, please, if you walk out that only tells me you can't sit still to work on this and that will end in D. (She stops by the table we talk a minute and walk together to the counter and pay bill and walk outside to talk for another 25 minutes.)I tell her I have admitted my past wrongs and have asked her forgiveness, but I got a 1 day "I feel awful for how bad I hurt you;" then "I still don't think I did anything wrong." She doesn't believe the words "I don't think I did anything wrong" came from her mouth.

WW: I am sorry, I know you just want me to fall on my knees, beg forgiveness and make all this right again. I know you want to start having SF again, but I just can't go there right now.

Me: I think if you were to just throw me a bone I could continue in the knowledge that I am not fighting this battle alone or upstream. Like Hansel and Gretel, if you could just put out the first breadcrumb I would know there is a trail at least.

WW: SWW, I am sorry, I know it's not what you want to hear. I just can't put my feelings out there right now.

Me: Well, I can't do this alone, I am very sorry WW, I didn't want it to come to this, but I see no option but to split up, maybe informally at first, I mean do you want a legal separation in order to date other people?

WW: There's no such thing as legal separation in our state, and no I don't have any intentions of dating other people, but I can't control what you do.

Me: I guess I was looking for something there as well, like you telling me you didn't want me to date others, but I guess you can't even say that as well?

WW: I said I can't control what you do...I just don't know but I can't talk about it, I just don't know.

Me: Well good lunch.

I walked to my car, went to my dad's and collapsed from exhaustion.

My cellphone rings and it's WW's ex BF (before the "new crowd") She asks how lunch goes and I tell her. She says she has been praying for us everyday, and that she knows how hard it is but to keep trying. She reminds me how WW has always had a "hard shell" around her and can't admit to anything wrong. She said WW now won't discuss the A at all and just looks at the ground when she asks how she feels about it, can she forgive herself and move on and reconcile etc. WW just can't talk or face it.

Friend says "SWW, it is HUGE that she has started wearing her wedding rings all the time, especially after how she talked about you and how she told everyone you were getting a D, and big that you are in the house when she told everyone she would leave if you moved back in" (even though she sleeps in DD's room.) She said hang in there, "crack that shell."

I left Monday and WW came over and was going thru some things at dad's before I left. She was picking up pictures of people and other things and putting them in a basket to take home, things she said "shouldn't get thrown away, they were special to your Mom."

I went to get in the car and she hugged me and said drive safely.

I am feeling stubborn today. I was confused last week and exhausted and to be honest it was so nice to get back to my quiet house in DC to decompress.

I am trying to consider a Plan B with the proviso that unless we get these issues in the open and she acknowledges she is going to make a good faith effort I don't see the point in going on. That I will plan B until she lets Mediator know she is ready to talk seriously, openly and honestly. I know WW, she wants to move on and pretend nothing happened and if enough time goes by spending time together as friends we will all forget about it and it can go into the huge bag of unresolved issues/guilt she has locked away since childhood.

I just don't think that's healthy.

I don't know whether to give this and God more time and be patient for Him to tell me what to do, or go to plan B and kinda force the issue. I began my PB letter (revised) this AM. Maybe that is what God wants me to do in order to be happy in the long run.

Whew, sorry for the long post...

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Did we ever talk about the possibility that she is bipolar or borderline personality disorder? Her behavior sounds so much like my daughter who is borderline. You may want to do a little research on it. The bad thing about it is that there is no cure and they usually won't ever get help. Check out the book Walking on Egg Shells.

SWW, I think that your conversation with her was normal because you haven't been in a firm Plan A or started a firm Plan B. These are the logical kind of conversations that we have when we are trying to fix things or logically make sense of something. No 2X4, it just is what it is.

You need the Plan B for you. She is not going to give you more than she already has. Not a stitch more, because she probably doesn't know how and may never learn how.

It's self survival at this point and being a whole person so that you can be there for your children and show them a better example.

I'm so sorry that you are in prolonged agony. I know this is hard on you.


BS(me) - 40
FWH - 36

6 years of discovery.
Now - one day at a time....
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