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Did I say "give up"? I did not.
If you accept that WH is currently a drunk who has abandoned you, just exactly what do you see are your options for a plan at this point?

Asking "WHY is he doing this?" .... is not a plan. The reason "why" is that he is a drunk.

Now what? You are perfectly aware of the "why". You cannot change the "why".

What I see is you wanting and hoping that you can so SOMETHING that will inspire your man to change his ways.

He is sick. Right now, he loves his sickness more than he loves you or loves himself. Until he hits his bottom he will not make positive changes.

Some are what is called "low bottom drunks" .... they have to lose EVERYTHING before they decide to seek help. Some are "high bottom drunks" .... they turn themselves around before losing everything.

To love and care about a "low bottom drunk" is just heartbreaking. The efforts to keep looking for ways to "help" the drunk often keeps the drunk from reaching bottom.

The hardest thing is to let them suffer their consequences. To not rescue them when they are in pain.

But, this is what helps the low bottom drunk in the long term.

I am truely sorry for your situation.

One of the skills of Al Anon is LOVING DETACHMENT.

Take a look at THIS LINK


Thank you for this post, Pepperband

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Originally Posted by CAZ3
You made a good point about MC. It may not be fruitful, but who knows if it may do something, spark something within him to help himself? More importantly, I want to find out how our relationship got to this point and my thought was that a MC might make it easier to get some of this info out in the open. I need this for me ... if my H doesn't love me, I want to hear him tell me he doesn't love me anymore and wants a divorce. He left me a note telling me he doesn't love me, but that's it. That and the fact that he left the house. I'm aware that if he does attend, he may not tell the truth...but he may.

CAZ, the point is that MC is for RECOVERY, and he is not capable of that as long as he is a practicing alcoholic. The MC cannot help him with his drinking problem and that is an essential step before recovery of your marriage can ever take place. Nor can any MC force someone into recovery against their will. There is absolutely nothing a MC could say to a drunk to "get through to him," I assure you. There is nothing anyone can say. Alcoholics do not learn like that.

There are no magic words that one can say that will make him bend to your will and it is unrealistic to believe so.

On second thought, there are SOME magic words that can help an alcoholic, but they won't come from a MC. They could come from a JUDGE, police officer, an employer, etc. Magic words can be: "you are going to jail or AA, take your pick, mister." or "you are under arrest for drunk driving. you have the right to remain sil......" Those are very magic words to some.

Practicing alcoholics respond to LOSS, nothing else makes a dent.

But sitting in a counselors office lying to a MC when one is completely resistant to recovery is a waste of time and money. The MC cannot help him with his drinking and there will be no recovery until his drinking is arrested.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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p.s. CAZ, please understand that I don't believe this is hopeless. But it is hopeless if you don't look at it realistically and stop wasting your time on fruitless endeavors. A much more effective tactic, IMO, would be to stop with the MC, go to Alanon and go into plan B. Remove yourself from his life entirely and only allow him back if he stops drinking. Otherwise he has no motivation to stop. And if he doesn't stop, you don't have a marriage anyway.

Last edited by MelodyLane; 10/23/08 01:09 PM.

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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CAZ, this is my first post to you but I've read through your whole thread today. I can relate to what you're going through because I went through the same thing. We are now into year five of recovery. We've been married 31 years and have four grown kids and four awesome grandkids.

First of all, your husband is lying to you about his relationship with the OW. They are/were having sex. Second of all, Pep and ML are dead on with their posts to you.

My DH is also an alcoholic (sober now for five years and a full-time student in Bible School studying for the ministry). He went off the deep end in 2002 and we went to hell and back. You can read my story by clicking the link in my signature. But there was NOTHING I could do to change anything about him, except finally let go. I didn't have MB when I was going through it, if I had, I would have saved myself a lot of time and heartache.

You do... have MB... that is. But while he's actively drinking, MB can't help your marriage. It CAN help you get through this, one way or the other.

My DH was one of those low bottom drunks that Pep talks about. Even losing me, our kids, our home, his job, his friends, being arrested for DWI, being in a serious accident that nearly killed him, didn't make him stop drinking OR come back to me. It wasn't until he decided for himself that he was destroying his life and everything/everybody around him that he finally came to his senses and got help.

What you can do during all of this is work on YOU and your own personal recovery. Protect the love that you have for this man if that's what you want, but let. him. go. for now.



Widowed 11/10/12 after 35 years of marriage
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“In a sense now, I am homeless. For the home, the place of refuge, solitude, love-where my husband lived-no longer exists.” Joyce Carolyn Oates, A Widow's Story
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Originally Posted by princessmeggy
What you can do during all of this is work on YOU and your own personal recovery. Protect the love that you have for this man if that's what you want, but let. him. go. for now.

EGG ZAK LEE

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
p.s. CAZ, please understand that I don't believe this is hopeless. But it is hopeless if you don't look at it realistically and stop wasting your time on fruitless endeavors. A much more effective tactic, IMO, would be to stop with the MC, go to Alanon and go into plan B. Remove yourself from his life entirely and only allow him back if he stops drinking. Otherwise he has no motivation to stop. And if he doesn't stop, you don't have a marriage anyway.

Thank you, MelodyLane. I'm going to continue with the MC because it helps me. That was the biggest reason for going in the first place...for me. H has already removed himself from my life. I don't know where he is living or anything. We've only spoken/seen one another a handfull of times over the past 2+ months. I took him off my health insurance and I'm about to remove him from auto insurance (I waited for him to do it, but surprise, ...he hasn't). I've only called him to confirm where we were going to meet to discuss finance, etc. And, again, that was only a handful of times. What else do you think I can do?

You are exactly right, if he doesn't stop drinking and spirling downward, we don't have a marriage.

Thx again,

CAZ

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Originally Posted by princessmeggy
What you can do during all of this is work on YOU and your own personal recovery. Protect the love that you have for this man if that's what you want, but let. him. go. for now.

Thank you. I appreciate your post, princessmeggy. I haven't read your story yet, but will do so over the weekend.


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Quick update ... WH called last Friday and left a message on my cell. He apologized for not making it to the MC appt, explained why and at the end said, "we'll have to reschedule that, I'm sorry about that. I'll talk to you soon and we'll figure something else out. Okay, Bye." I'm still very hopeful and have the same "don't give up on this M" attitude. I'm just wondering what I should think about doing next?

Should I ask him to meet me (not via a MC appt.) so we can talk? Should I let it go and not contact him for a little while? I'm asking b/c there are still so many things up in the air - our unfinished house, our bills, etc. And, he still hasn't looked me in the face and told me he doesn't love me anymore and wants a divorce. Obviously, we're not living together and he's not around - which says a lot. BUT, if he really does want out, I need him to tell me. And if he doesn't know what he wants, I need him to tell me.


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Should I try to expose the affair my WH is having, given my situation?

He abandoned me back in August. Don't know where he lives. He's driving the OW's truck. Last time I saw him and asked if he was seeing someone (I should have worded that differently....I should have used the word "affair") and he said, "yes and no, ...if you can call it that. I pretty much got my walking papers." That was BullS@#*. He was lying. He hasn't shown up to any of the three MC appts I set up, but has called to apologize for not making it and saying that we can reschedule. Why bother if he doesn't intend to go, but then feels the need to apologize and ask to reschedule???

Back to my intial question - should I expose the affair? I think I know the OW's name, but don't know where she lives.

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CAZ3,

I just read through your whole thread here and see that Pep and Mel have been giving you some excellent advice and that PM has chimed in as well.

These are the folks who can help you the most, assuming you are willing to take their advice. They have BTDT and got the scars to prove it.

I know that you feel the need to focus on the affair as being the problem and it does need to be dealt with if your marriage is to have any hope of recovering. In most cases of adultery, the affair is the primary problem to deal with above everything else. But your real problem is his alcohol abuse and until THAT is resolved there really isn't much you can do to save your marriage because as long as he is drinking, you frankly don’t really have much of one.

Addicts are "married" to the source of their addiction. In your husband's case, he is married to the booze. Until his relationship with alcohol is over there is really not a lot you can do for him.

But there is a LOT you can do for you. You might want to look into Healing Is a Choice from New Life Ministries. This is the website of Steve Arterburn and the authors of Boundaries, Dr John Townsend and Dr Henry Cloud.

As much as I dislike the whole codependence movement, you need to focus on one fact above all else: You aren't responsible for your husband's problems. You can't fix him, CAZ. Like all alcoholics he has endeavored to make his problems yours. But just like you aren't responsible for his affair, you also aren't responsible for his drinking. But you have probably shielded him from the consequences of his drinking for a while now and before you took over that job it was probably his mother that had that position in his life.

So he doesn't really have a problem with drinking because other people have made it their problem.

Now it's time to help him.

Help him to have a problem...

You see, it isn't merely the actions while drunk that are the problem. Those are the things that have consequences, some of them serious and are what loved ones and family members and friends of an alcoholic have to deal with on a daily basis. But the problem for the alcoholic is that they live for the booze. The booze is the most important thing in their life and until they get to the point that they hit bottom, it will be what they live for. Everything else they do will be to support the booze. Their interactions with others will be attempts at manipulation to avoid consequences while continuing to drink.

Unfortunately, the bottom for some is face down in the street with nothing left but the DTs. For others, the bottom can be getting called into the boss' office for being late one too many times. More are closer to the first than to the second.

While seeing a counselor might help you, I would recommend one who helps family members of alcoholics as your first choice. While marriage counseling might help you, what you really need right now is for him to reach the end of the road and realize he has to turn around or become lost forever, not just to you, but to the rest of his world.

I really believe in trying to save marriages. I wish I had the education to really help folks do just that. But as already pointed out to you by others, MB can't really work as long as there is an addiction of any kind. That is because as long as he is drunk, he is incapable of doing what it will take to make the marriage work and improve and actually recover from this and be stronger than it was before it happened. Until alcohol is no longer ruling his thinking and his greatest desire in life, I am afraid that there is little you can do to truly recover.

Now he may end his affair. He might even come to you and beg forgiveness, make all kinds of promises, tell you that he loves you more than life itself and all sorts of things people with an alcohol addiction do and say when they are trying to manipulate others into doing something for them and relieving them of the consequences of their choices and actions, that is, making the alcoholic’s problems belong to someone else. This is a pattern that is repeated many times in the lives of alcoholics until someone finally refuses to take responsibility for their mess.

Can your marriage be saved? Maybe it can, but not until he is sober. And being sober isn't about not drinking. You can not have a thing to drink for years and still be a drunk. It’s a condition known as being a dry drunk. It’s being not under the influence in the physical sense while the brain still operates as if alcohol is present. The thinking process still works as if the alcohol was still ruling the life of the alcoholic. (*Side note here: This is the difference between a former wayward spouse and a wayward spouse not actively engaged in an affair as well. Just not committing adultery does not stop the process of having a wayward mindset. It doesn’t fix what was broken to allow the affair in the first place.)

This has to come from him in order for it to affect his life for real and for good.

Sorry if that wasn't much help.

You need to focus on you right now. I honestly don't know if your marriage is going to survive this or not. I can say definitively that having a viable marriage in the future will only result from his dealing with his alcoholism.

The best I can do for you is to pray for you both. THAT is something I can and WILL do.

Mark

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As I told Mark before, thank you very much for your post earlier this month. I appreciate your being candid and honest even if it is hard to hear.

UPDATE * My WH's uncle passed away earlier this week. We both just saw him the first weekend in August (right before D-Day) and he had had a stroke, but looked good considering. It was hard to hear about his passing, but it seemed expected. I decided to go to the calling hours because I always liked his uncle and I know my WH's family and I'm close with them. I'm very uncomfortable about seeing open caskets and going to wake's, but this wasn't about me it was about paying my respects to him. Everyone thanked me for coming and his cousin told me to hang in there and said, "You are a ray of sunshine and god will bless you." WH's other uncle gave me a big hug, his aunt, etc. It felt really good. Then, I turned around and saw my FIL. He looked at me and said, "CAZ, I got your letter (I recently wrote to let him know about WH, what happened, etc. I said nothing bad about WH, just that he needs his family now)." FIL had the saddest eyes. We both hugged and he looked at me again and said, "it just brings tears to my eyes." He was referring to me and my WH. I hugged him again and I was about to break down into tears so I said, "I have to go" and left the funeral home.

Got a flat tire - noticed it earlier today. Called WH and left a vmail (I haven't seen him since 10/12 and haven't talked with him since the week after that) asking to borrow jack, socket wrench. He called me back within a half hour and said he's on his way to do it. He got here in 15 minutes and changed my tire using my spare. Then he said he'd follow me to the gas station to put air in the tire because it was pretty low. When he finished putting air in the tires, he said, "I'm really sorry about all of this. I know we need to talk and I need to give you money 4 bills and I left you hangin'." He was looking me in the eye when he was talking. I said, "when do you want 2 talk?" and he said "how about the wkd after next?" I said okay. Then he thanked me for going to his uncle's calling hours. I reached out to hug him and he hugged me back and said, "it really meant a lot to the ol' man." Then, we talked a bit more and he said, "we'll talk again soon." We both got into our cars. I pulled up to his car and got out. He rolled his window down and I asked him to get out of the car. He got right out and I gave him another hug....I squeezed him and said, "I didn't hug you like I wanted to earlier." Then, I just got into my car and left.

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Nothing has changed since last update on 11/29. WH is still not living with me, hasn't provide any $ for bills and hasn't come to "talk" with me about what's going on.

I started a plan of acting, instead of reacting. The first few months I solely reacted to what he did, said, didn't do, didn't say, etc. I'm sick of reacting. So, when I say I'm acting.....I mean I'm living my life - spending time with friends & family, new activities, not trying to contact WH, not planning my next move based on what he does or doesn't do. I know it sounds wishy washy, but I THINK I've let him go. I say "think" because I still love him and want to work things out so I'm not sure if that is truly letting go. I want to stay strong and I was really worried that holding on would only hurt me OR make me go crazy. I also thought that by letting go, I could some day get him back. And, when I say "him", I mean the H I've known and loved all of these years, not the uncaring, selfish, liar/cheater that he is now. I don't want THAT back.

Saw my lawyer again a couple weeks ago. I gave him the OW's name and some info I had on her (which isn't much). I'm not filing anything (I don't want a divorce, ... I would walk thru fire to work things out with my WH), however, I always want to be prepared and know all my options.

The holidays are rough. I always loved this time of year....I mean I was like a child when it came to Christmas. It's such a wierd feeling that this year I don't feel that way:-( But, I'm gonna try. My birthday was a few days ago and I made the best of it. It turned out to be a good day.

Thanks for listening.

Me: 32 (just turned!)
WH: 30
Married: 2 1/2 years
Together: 15 years (yes, we dated in HS, stayed friends during college (and both dated other people, then came together again and have been together ever since)
No kids

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