"THEN WE'D AT LEAST HAVE SOMETHING TO ADDRESS, AND CLEAR STEPS TO TAKE."

Jayne, you do have something to address. You are miserable in your marriage. You have done resolving some issues, like the working in two different countries. You can do this, set yourself up for success, like you have been doing. Since the steps aren't clear, what about calling the Harleys?

You weren't enthusiastic about 15 minutes a week. Good to know. MB is not about sacrifice, is is about finding mutually agreeable solutions. Same thing with the never touching thing. Doesn't work for you. Good to know.

Jayne, if you read some of the articles, Dr. H recommends a 1 year separation in some situations, like abuse. I encourage you to reread the ones you find relevant.

I had 4 little brothers, and they destroyed everything in the house. We did what we could, but we were totally outnumbered. I mean all the photos, books, clothes, birth certificates, everything. Yes, we were able to order duplicate birth certificates, and social security cards. But I agree with you that you have the right and the responsibility to create order in your home.

I've wished that I found evidence of infidelity so I could have a "get out of jail free card." Because it was too painful living with a man who wanted nothing to do with me, who treated me like an annoyance, an obstacle. Do you feel like that?

Today, I don't feel like that. I feel like the cage is open, and that I'm not an annoyance or an obstacle. You all have good times, too, Jayne. Better days are ahead, hon!

I did send an email to the coaching center last night. Of course these things always seem to come to a head on a Friday night, leaving the whole weekend to get through...


The 15 minutes a week is something H won't do. I would love it, I'd love the 15 hours a week.

I'm not sure. I think it's not so much that I could then leave guilt-free, but rather there would be steps to take to recovery. Almost like (and I know this prolly doesn't make sense) that it would be easier to recover from adultery than from this slow smothering death.


How come I can't see it or feel it?

I might seem to be a 'real' problem that you can DO something about, but no Jayne, don't wish that on yourself.
You've BTDT remember?

Yes, and yer right... and I thought about saying that and then I remembered I was pretty much suicidal last time....

So you're right of course.

But the ones who SAA and are in recovery sure have a better M than I do.

I'm at a loss. I sure hope the Harleys can tell me what I need to do to restore love and intimacy.

I know that.
Before the A I was a strong woman who took no BS from anyone. I nearly walked away from my marriage several times, it was only a statistic I read when i was considering it that made me stay. I don't remember it exactly but when they questioned some people who had considered D but stuck it out 6 years after the fact, they found that generally they were happpier than they thought they might be, and were alot happier than those that did D.
Now I have to ask my H for reasurrence several times a day to be sure of his love. The act of asking makes me fear he will say 'not worth it' and leave. I don't feel strong enought to be on my own.

Your a strong woman too Jayne, I read it and hear it from you even tho I can feel your pain. You just want to be loved in the way that makes you feel loved. You are trying so very hard and H isnt getting it.
I wonder if this is a part of why you want to cosset the boys a bit, or is it that you had such a hard time at the beginning with them that you are trying to make it up? A few fights wont kill them and there is a difference between happy noise and bad noise. Bumps and bruises don't permantly scar... most of the time
I know you love your H, and even the bank balance is up and down, when he does make the effort you seem to respond with love again very quickly.
I read you thread and I waver with saying you are actually doing an ok plan A, and telling you to give him a fright.
Having said that you have all just moved and its stressful right now. I hear your WAW thoughts, I do understand.
EWIW I have similar things with Flick anyway, he doesnt like long conversations either. Consise it the goal in any communication, it's one of the reasons doing MB is soooo slowwwwww

Thanks lil for the encouragement.

There's a lot of things I do poorly or wrong. I don't give him respect and admiration. I believe that a woman wants to feel loved but a man wants to feel respected, and I don't do a good job of that. Like I admitted above, I often feel rejected and disgusted. Disgusted is not respectful.

I'm awful in the DS department.

I've wandered away from turning things over to God, in all the busy-ness of moving, new jobs, new schools, everything.

After dinner I stayed in the dining room where H usually spends the evening on the computer, so that he couldn't say the reason he didn't suggest we talk was because I wasn't around. He went to the garage and did stuff with the boxes in there until he was ready to go to sleep. He said something like, "If it's ok with you I want to wait until tomorrow for the talk you wanted." I asked if I had a choice, and he said he didn't know. I asked if he'd bring it up tomorrow and he said yes.

What do I want to say if he does bring it up tomorrow? Do I want to try (again) to tell him that I really need more intimacy, or do I try to ask him what HE wants, or do I talk about how I'd like our family dynamics to be different?

Hun, I suck at most of this stuff

Yeah, I think guys do seem to think admiration is the same as love (??) at least the one I interact with does. I feel a bit of a twit but I don't remember what sort of stuff you do to show him you admire him. The bits I do read seem to show you do it.
Did you ever ask him how he likes to be admired? Mind you, if your not careful you'll get the response I got tonight when I asked H how many text a day would he like. He responded by saying if he said 6 for example then each time he got one it would be in his mind that "theres one, wonder when my next one of 6 is to come, how so not spontainious" I had to explain that really I just wanted to know how many is too many.

Doing that fully relying on God thing...guilty. Its only been the last couple of weeks I have really spent any time with Him. Its ok, He sees all, and knows all, and is pretty forgiving to boot. He understands Jayne.

On the surface this seems to be a good thing. He acknowleged that he was aware you wanted to talk, even if it didnt happen so he isnt totally oblivious of your wants/needs/desires. It just sucks that the outcome wasnt all that useful too you. I really don't get why he "didnt know" when you asked if you had a choice, as he was the one determining that it wasnt going to happen, at least it seemd to be phrased in such a way to make me believe that had you said "actually no I would like to do this now" then he may have taken the opportunity to respond in what seems to be normal fashion....anger, shouting, hurt.
Which is MOST important to you. You can only fight one battle at a time. IS it worth battling over the less important stuff right now? I do wonder if perhaps it is time for you to tell him that you are feeling that you are an unimportant member of the relationship. I know you fear he will leave, or express that your not worth it to him. IS it better to fear this or know this? Does this fear contribute to your personal interection with him..."I'll hurt him before he hurts me", or maybe "There's no point to this because it isnt going to work so why bother giving my all, just do the basics"?

I'm not saying I hear this from you, its kind of just doing my own personal thinking out loud to you

I think that is it.

I'm thinking maybe what I want to say is, What can I or we do to provide a better home environment with the kids, with less yelling.

I'm tired of asking for intimacy. Not just asking for him to do things; I've tried asking him what I can do; I've asked him to fill out the LBQ and ENQ, and other things re. what can I do. That isn't working.

Maybe I'll just concentrate on a reasonable co-parenting relationship and a practical-matters (work, house, finances) relationship. Stop expecting - I guess I still have expectations, and that is the source of my disappointment. I'll read up on the 180 also. The other day I couldn't access the articles for some reason.

How does that sound?

It is hard to ask for intimacy. How are you going to ask that? If it were me, I would figure out exactly and specifically what I needed for me to feel intimate with my husband. And then ask for those specifics.

What specifically would he have to do to fill your need for intimacy?

1. Sex three times a week, if he does not want it on one or two of these nights, he can cuddle and pleasure YOU.

2. Interesting discussions 3 1/2 hour sessions a week. You promise you will not make these discussions demanding or miserable.

3. Loving acts toward you (what means love to you, him cooking a good meal, him watching his kids while you go out with friends, him picking up nice groceries for you all to eat?


What specifically would it be like if your marriage was closer and more intimate? What is it about the current lack of intimacy that you dont like now????

This will all help you articulate it in the best way when you talk to your husband. Does he need intimacy in some way also? What are his needs? can you figure out his needs?

Right before I read your post, I actually thought maybe I should elaorate on what I meant by "intimacy". Thanks for asking. I will answer, more to sort things out in my own mind (and for y'all ) but I've asked for these things specifically with H and don't want to ask again.

My ENs:

#1: Conversation *****
#2: Honesty and Openness *****
#2.1: Conv. and H&O *****
#2.2: Conv. and H&O *****
#2.3: Conv. and H&O *****
...
#2.9: Conv. and H&O *****
#3: Family Commitment ***
#4: Recreational Companionship ***
#5: Affection ***
#6: Domestic Support *
#7: Sexual Fulfillment *
#8: Admiration *
#9: Financial Support *
#10: Physical Attractiveness *

"Interesting discussions 3 1/2 hour sessions a week. You promise you will not make these discussions demanding or miserable. "

Wow, if he would just do this, I think I'd fall over dead. And happy.

I think what I would need in order to feel loving and intimate, would be:
A. If he would share with me what he plans to do for the day, especially on things that we need to coordinate schedules, cars, kids. (In all fairness he's better at this than he used to be.)
B. If he would discuss things with me and we could decide things together; right now he does what he wants, puts things where he wants, buys what he wants; if I mention I'd prefer it a different way he says "No, I like it there." If I mention that I'd like to get something, or do something with the house, he says "No I don't want that." The only way I could do something I want to do with the house would be to IB.
C. If he would discuss things like the kids' schoolwork, discipline, etc, instead of just IB.
D. If he would talk about stuff at work, especially the things that ppl assume he's told me.
E. If he would talk about *anything*. If he'd sit down and have a 15 minute conversation with me, just undivided attention, about *anything*, I'd feel good for days.

Well maybe not anymore. But up until a couple days ago.

Other things that would be bigger actions, that just ain't gonna happen:
F. A date night. Dinner at a nice restaurant, and a movie, and discussing the movie or something, anything, afterward. Kids with a babysitter.
G. Sitting down and planning a family schedule: a weekly date night, a weekly game night with the kids, a weekly traditional outing with the kids (like a movie, or mini-golf or biking or something); maybe setting up a tradition of getting movies on Friday nights for the kids; a schedule for who takes care of dinner which nights; what chores the kids are to do each week, and what their allowance is; a budget.
H. A hug and a kiss.

In my first post on this thread I talked about finally figuring out his most important needs, by snooping on his ENQ which he never finished and never gave me. Looking back at that post now, it seems I've made no progress. Well maybe I've cut way down on some of the LBs. From that first post:

"Well I managed to get a better idea of what my husband's Emotional Needs might be. ...His most important needs (he hasn't done the last page yet) seem to be Recreational Companionship (I knew that would be one), Admiration (that one too), and Domestic Support (that doesn't surprise me either).

... on his questionairre, he said for both Conversation and Open Honesty that I give him all he wants but he does *not* like the way I do it, and that he only wants me to share information about events of the day or future plans, not emotional reactions to significant aspects of life or about personal history."

So: Recreational Companionship, Admiration, and Domestic Support.

I can up the DS. I've not been doing much of that at all, mostly because I had that huge deadline which is now passed, and I was doing almost all the childcare stuff even leaving work early cus we didn't have after-school arrangements, and that didn't leave me any time for DS. My deadline is now passed and we now have after-school arrangements so I can afford to spend more time with DS.

I can try giving him Admiration too. Not really feeling it right now though. But if BWs can find something nice to say to their WHs surely I can find something nice to say to my faithful-but-cold H.

RC. That may have to wait until after we've finished moving in. I'd pictured us moving in together, as sort of a fun RC thing, sharing plans, discussing where to put things, etc. He's just IBing it, so it isn't RC.

Jayne I have a thought. Did any of these things happen when you were dating him or when you were first married?

The reason I ask is I would like to narrow down when the problems first started.

Is the guy just naturally unable to do these things or did he do them in the beginning but something "got in the way" or "caused him to stop doing the desired behaviors" so...now he is in the habit of NOT doing these intimacy producing behaviors?

You need to know what you are dealing with before trying to find and impliment solutions.

Are you trying to change his root, inate personality? Or are you trying to change the bad dynamics in the marriage that, over time, caused him to withdraw emotionally and not want to talk deeply to you or do intimate things in your lives?

"... on his questionairre, he said for both Conversation and Open Honesty that I give him all he wants but he does *not* like the way I do it, and that he only wants me to share information about events of the day or future plans, not emotional reactions to significant aspects of life or about personal history."

This is such a CLUE, a KEY actually.

This sort of tells me there is hope. And it sort of tells me that he has withdrawn partly because of the way you interact with him! This is great primarily because YOU can change! YOU have the power to change YOUR 50% of the interaction in the marriage! It is NOT like you are powerless to do anything about this withdrawal of his! I dont know, it just gives me hope for you two.

He's always been not very much of a conversationalist. (Conversationist?) I knew that part wasn't an ideal match. But he has changed, even less communicative than when we were dating.

So how exactly am I to change? He wrote that ENQ a long time ago - I'd have to check the date of my first post on this thread. Since then I think I *have* tried to talk about emotional things less to him. Which is essentially withdrawing, no?

I can try not talking about *anything* other than tasks, chores, etc. That could be considered a 180... except I've essentially been doing that lately, with occasional lapses esp. when he gives me a glimmer of hope.

I couldn't find anything on 180 using the forum search or the site search, but when I googled "marriage 180" I found a thread from the MB archives! Following one of the links, it said something about don't go back to pre-180 behavior right away, you have to keep it up for the results to last. Maybe that's it, maybe I need to keep on not talking to H about anything other than tasks and chores.

That's the opposite of what I'd call intimacy, which is what I was talking about in my first post when I asked how can we meet each other's needs when they are the exact opposite. For me to meet his needs of not communicating, is for me to be in withdrawal.

I have an idea here. Because of something that happened yesterday with my husband.

I think some men get tired of women's emotional reactions to things. It exhausts them to the point that they do not want to talk that way again with us.

Let me give a tiny example. Yesterday I was "getting all worked up" about the stock market and why I felt "I had to be successful" investing in stocks. Mine had gone down lately and I am impatient and want the market to go back up and I was feeling like a failure that I had not timed the market right. I started to get into emotional baggage from childhood that said I had to be perfect, and that my dad had always invested in the stock market and did well, etc. I got more and more excited and loud.

My husband said STOP. Please STOP THIS. There are only three choices. You can either sell everything at the bottom and get out, you can sell some weak stock and get better stock, or you can leave it alone and ride it out for a couple years.

I could have thought: "Waaaah, he does not care for me! He did not listen to me emote and explain my childhood difficulties, he does not C-A-R-E!!!!!"

I could have felt rejected. Instead I quickly realized that my dramatic emotions were taking over our conversation. They were exhausting my husband. They were actually painful to him and were HURTING him. They were almost an ATTACK on him!!!!!!

He was right in shutting me down. If I need to emote that way I can hire a counselor to emote to or come here to MB and let it all out. Why damage my marriage or my good communication with my husband? I do not feel in any way rejected by him or disgusted. I do not feel bad about myself either. I had been filling the air space with HEAVY and UNNEEDED emotion. This did not help either of us. I was LAYING my emotions on my husband. This would be like hanging a huge 300 pound millstone around his neck and expecting him to carry it for me.

Do you get the gist of what I am saying here Jayne?

Do your emotions explode onto your husband? Do 50% of your communications consist of straight emotional reactions?

Maybe you could do some research into how HE likes to talk, and see if you can get into doing it that way. Like does he want to talk about things logically? Realistically? Emotionally? (obviously not) He gave you a big clue about not liking the WAY you talk, so try to find something that's more comfortable for him. He may open up.

I hope you dont mind, Jayne sometimes it helps to write out a little story about your marriage. It may be way off, it is just my view. It is for you to correct or change or respond to or take action about.

Jayne meets her husband one day and they like each other. She notices they mesh in many areas. One area they do not mesh in is in a "personality trait area". He is naturally less communicative (by personality type) and she is naturally more communicative (by personality type). But while dating it works out OK.

Then they get married and live together and have two kids and she becomes ill and he nurses her to health and they move several times, get different jobs, span two continents for a while, and buy and sell homes.

Jayne as needs to communicate more than he does. Also, she is isolated from other women friends by lack of time and the new moves to different areas so her husband is her main source of communication. Both are stressed out from so many major life changes in a 7 years timeframe.

Those major life changes alone are enough to make any person crazy. It is all they can both do to get to work, unpack, eat, and raise the two kids properly.

Gradually thier different personality traits come to the forefront. Neither is wrong. They are both different in the communication area.

Many things happen because of this personality disconnect:

1. He has a home in Canada and she worries he is not able to make payments on it.

2. He gets a better job and they have to move

3. She needs daycare for the children which he does not quite take responsibility for.

4. She becomes emotionally hungry, emotionally needy, emotionally starved when the stress of thier lives impact her triggering childhood fears and issues.

5. She gets almost demanding of him emotionally since she has no other girlfriends she sees every week to help re-fill her emotional resources (which are very low) due to the moves and them settling in thier new life.

6. Lack of time to even LIVE THIER BUSY LIFE contributes to her not having any girlfriends locally to let off steam and causes her to not have energy to make friends.

7. Her husband has to (and is expected to) fill the roles of FRIEND, LOVER, CONFIDANT, COUNSELOR, PROVIDER, FATHER, COOK, CHILDCARE ARRANGER, MONEY MANAGER, INVESTOR, LISTENER, A PERSON TO VENT ON .

8. The husband cannot fill all the above roles perfectly and some not very well at all. Some of these roles he is not good at.

9. What roles does the husband ask JAYNE to fill? Well men typically are more independent so they do not need emotional friendships like women do and we know this man in particular is not comfortable with his emotions nor with touching or closeness.

10. Many of the roles Jayne asks her husband to fill are roles he is not good at. Perhaps half the roles she needs him to fill for her HE CAN NOT DO.

11. When the husband tries to fill roles for a wife that he cannot accomplish and is not naturally suited for, and should not be expected to fill, then he gets tired, frustrated, and becomes withdrawn since it is FUTILE for him to continue trying to do somethings that are painful for him to do and that do not fit his personality. Pretty soon, he realizes that Jayne is a bottomless pit of emotional needs and he cannot help her. So to try anymore is not only useless but does not help anyway. Since her emotional needs go on and on and on.

12. Jayne tries to fill her husband's needs but does not do a great job at it since he needs things that she does not need like "having fun", etc. She would have to find the time to fill his needs and they just have time for basic survival right now. She would also have to go outside her comfort zone to fill his needs. He wants fun and recreation and she wants emotional closeness. it is nearly opposite.

13. At this point neither one is getting thier needs filled, they are slogging through marriage and life one foot in front of another only living for BASIC PHYSICAL SURVIVAL as thier love is DYING>

14. Each one is DYING INSIDE.

15. He knows he cannot make her happy, she needs so much more from him then he can give.

16. She knows that she will never get from him what she thinks she wants and needs from him.

17. They are nearly giving up on each other, he is now almost completely withdrawn and she is desparate to make any kind of connection with him.

18. They still deal with the stresses of work, kids, lack of time, household tasks, and all the physical things they need to do each day to survive. There is no time or energy to get creative to get the inner needs filled.

19. Outer physical needs dominate today. Inner needs are crying out to be filled but no one has time to get to that.


How can both (they are such different people) get thier inner needs and outer needs filled, in life, and be happy with each other and feel successful and happy with the marriage and family?

How will thier love best flourish and survive?

How far can each one push thier "natural born personalitites" out of the comfort zones and learn to fill the other's needs in deep ways?

In what ways will they be able to "see the true personality" of each other and at the same time acknowledge that each other is different.... yet be able to bond with the each other?

How will they be able to embrace both the "sameness" they have with each other, and the "differences of each other" in a great way?

First, my response to cat's post which is shorter.

The types of conversations he likes:

Well, his natural state would be to discuss *nothing*. But when he reaches outside his comfort zone and tries to communicate more, he discusses things like:
- something he has picked out for the house, like a bedroom set or sofa
- running some financial thing by me; I'm not good at getting the task done, but sometimes I can spot a pitfall if he runs it by me
- reminder that the kids have cub scouts that night (for example)

That's about it I think. So I'm not sure what's to open up.

Um... I was talking about topics of discussion. I see you were talking about modes of conversation? I would say he likes to discuss plans; not dreams of the future, but merely immediate plans for tasks. He likes to discuss things realistically with no emotionally charged things.