MG,

""I feel like we made a lot of progress, but I still have a nagging feeling that I don’t know everything. I’m just not ready to fully trust her at this point.""

Nor should you trust her at this point. Keep in snooping mode.

You did make a huge amount of progress. You are communicating.

As far as that "nagging feeling" - I STILL HAVE THE NAGGING FEELING. After over 4 years it is still there. I don't think any of the betrayed ever get rid of it. How can we?

Whether it was 2 times or 10. That doesn't really matter does it?

The nagging feeling is a part of the same baggage as the movies in our heads, the 8 x 10 glossies and the other IMAGINED obsessions we torture ourselves with. As time goes by the intensity of these things diminish.

Some of us need ALL the details. When we get them, maybe more than we bargained for, we will still have that nagging feeling. The only person that knows the entire truth is the wayward and OP. And even if we would get the whole truth, we would keep thinking there was more.

So take that "nagging feeling" and stick it in the same compartment with the movies and imagined scenarios and try to jam the compartment waaayyy back on the back burner of your brain.

Focus on the Plan A, try to empathize with her, avoid relationship talk for a while and be your old groovy attractive self.

IMHO

kirk

+1 on SF...

2 time or 10, doesn't matter. It also fits into the intel he has.

Speaking of Intel. I understand leading by example, but trust has to be earned. You have good reason to keep your sources secret until she re-earns your trust.

One good weekend is not enough.

MG,

I did post the below to Andrew:

He said, "if they say it happened once and once only and they are genuinely sorry about it, there's a pretty decent chance you are getting the truth. BUT, if they say it happened twice or three times, in my experience, it has nearly always been the case that it was going on for significantly longer and happened quite a bit more. They usually admit to twice, but not more because that way they can acknowledge that indeed it was more than once, but they don't have to admit the true extent of their relationship, sexual and otherwise, with the OP."

This was advice given to me by an old family friend, a 30 year divorce attorney/mediator and also a psychologist. When I was telling him my story, he interrupted a few times and said, "I bet she said this, right?" At one point he said he was looking at the ceiling and observing the track lighting. He said, "SWW, these things are just like the track lighting i am looking at, WW is following the script right down the track and can't get off. Here's what she's gonna say next..."

He was dead on. She later admitted to a 2 month fling with SF 5-6 times. I still don't believe that is the extent of it.

I understand the line of thinking that leads to , "1 time or 10 times; what's the difference?"

For me it was important. I wanted to hear the truth from her lips. I have not gotten it.

It was an essential element of re-establishing trust, and despite the difficulty for her to address these issues head on, it would have proven to me that she was willing to walk thru the fire to get that trust back.

I want to say, I have no idea whether your WW is being completely open with you. Maybe she is.

Thanks everyone.

SWW, that is exactly what I was thinking. I just have this feeling that I am still just getting bits of truth and a lot of BS. I understand the logic of 2 or 10 what's the difference. But, to me it's also a trust issue. How can I ever trust her again if she can't be totally honest with me about the details of her affair. I'm seriously considering asking her to take a polygraph, but I think it's probably best to give her a little break before I push her any further.

She is actually engaging with me and the kids today. It's almost like she's trying to act like nothing happened. I get this feeling that she thinks that after this weekend that it's past us and we can just move on and forget everything. She has a rude awakening coming if that's the case. I will give her a break for a few days, but this is far from over. I am unfortunately one of those that needs every detail before I can process everything and I won't stop until I believe that she has told me everything.
For what it's worth, I'm pretty much in agreement with you SWW. I think that I can handle whatever has happened if I jsut know that she is being totally honest with me.

i was the same way. somewhere around here is joseph's letter. maybe someone will post it. u are getting close to needing it.

Mgolfer,

One of the reasons it makes a difference between 1 and 10 is the following statement she made to you. Things may get out of hand once while flirting, but more than once and certainly 10 times isn't getting out of hand. It is suspension of guilt, morality, and vows in a predetermined way.

I am not saying you cannot forgive 10 times, but her reasoning doesn't seem to resonate with some of the things I think you heard from OM and his Dad.

I'll be frank with you. I have never figured out if it is better or worse for the WS to be "in love" with the OP. If it is love, then suspension of moral code and violating of boundaries makes sense in the context of this "in-love" feeling. It also brings up issues of if they love each other "where do I stand?".

However, if there was no love, and she just felt attracted to him and flirted with him and then started an affair, that leaves some deep issues with regard to even her most base motivations and boundaries. Yes, you don't have to fight "love for the OM", but you are looking at someone who thinks it is alright to violate their morals, vows, and marriage as long as they don't get caught.

The ever popular "I didn't mean to hurt you" suggests that as long as she could get away with it she would consider it.

I think counseling is a must. I think you need to see a real change in her perspectives on things, and to tell if they are you do need more details, not exactly of what they did, but of what she was thinking and how she justified her violating her boundaries and her vows.

Clearly there is something wrong with her perspective and for your marriage to recover her perspective MUST change. Otherwise you will never develop the trust that a good marriage has.

I would suggest you consider things from that point of view.

God Bless,

JL

The changes in her mood will astound you! Prepare for it! The changes in your mood will NOT be as perceived by you as much as you perceive your wife's mood changes.

I got the "truth" (whatever that was at the time) in a long draw out time period (3 weeks) and, in reality, I couldn't tell you where the truth started or ended....and my FWW at the time, probably couldn't either....fatasy does that to the affair partners....it's as thoght they have been hit with a big "STUPID" stick. Reality is, is that it takes time for the endorphines to wear off.

Ulitmately, (and this is VERY DIFFICULT) you need to toss out the fact that you have been married to this woman...for now, at least in the way you have always interacted with her.

Treat her (while maitaining boundaries)as just a friend....(quite a bit later on, you can get you answers to your questions, if you even want them at that time!)

You need to make her feel "safe"....she needs to feel assurred that she isn't going to live with someone who is going to bring this up all the time....Remember, you love her....and it is NEVER good to hold ANY resentments against those you love....this actually gets easier once YOU feel like she is starting to re-commit.

As you re-establish the friendship part, constantly take the pulse of where you are....it will feel erratic at first....but you should see a slow improvement in the overall relationship...this may take several weeks to months....You MUST LET HER initiate ANY relationship talk.....DON'T DO IT! Initially it will aid in her thinking that she will have to live with this hanging over her head for the rest of her life. And in reality, she will, but it can't be YOU who reminds her of that....it is YOU she needs to take comfort in....that CAN and WILL happen if YOU want it to.

Keep working on yourself, and NEVER underestimate what THIS BOARD can provide you with as assistance....it truly is invaluable.

God Speed,
MWIL

JL,
That’s my concern. I wouldn’t like it any more, but I could understand it better if there was some emotional element to this affair. I’m just having a hard time getting my hands around the fact that she could be with this guy multiple times and it just be a physical thing.

Also, I haven’t seen her going through anything close to the withdrawal described by many on this board. She moped around for the past week, but I get the distinct feeling that she was more upset about the consequences and embarrassment associated with her actions than actually missing this kid. Now, it’s like nothing happened and she’s ready to just move on with life.

She even tried to initiate SF last night. It had been over a month since we had SF and it’s like she thought we could just go back to the way it was a month ago. It really pxxxed her off when I turned her down. I simply stopped her and told her that “while I love you and look forward to reclaiming the physical part of our relationship that I couldn’t do this until she had a complete battery of STD tests run.” She stormed off yelling “I told you we used protection every time but I guess you still don’t believe me. You’re such an Axx.” I followed her to the basement and reminded her that I had no reason to trust her at this point. I told her that the only truth I had gotten from her in the past month was when I confronted her lies with facts and backed her into a corner.

She claimed that I was exaggerating. I reminded her that “it was only flirting” and then “it was only some kissing” and finally, when I presented her with undeniable facts, it was “okay, I slept with him once” and even that was a lie because it’s now twice. I have not willingly been given one bit of truth during this whole nightmare. I then brought it back to the issue of the night and told her that “I have no reason to believe that you used protection every time and therefore I have no way of knowing if you’ve been exposed to any number of STD’s because if this kid is like most college guys, he will sleep with anything that’ll spread her legs.” That was probably a little much, but I was getting angry myself at that point. She spent the rest of the night pouting like a child.

MWIL,
In the 17 years I’ve known her, this is all really out of character. She’s never done anything like this that I can tell. Is it possible for someone who has been a loving and caring wife and mother for all these years to suddenly turn into someone this cold. I understand the fog associated with most affairs, but is that fog still present when it appears to be totally physical with little emotional attachmetn. I just feel that there’s way more to this than I know at the moment because none it makes any sense to me. If anyone has any ideas, I’m open to trying anything at this point.

Doesn't it makes sense that this is completely about her? She's having a midlife crisis, and this hot young thing thinks she's still sexy. Can you imagine how much of an ego boost that must be? For probably one of only a handful times in her life, someone is putting her on a pedestal, even if it's just lies. And it makes her feel good to be wanted.

I think if she was scared of getting older, looking older, etc. and someone made her 'feel' young and beautiful, it could be a slippery slope that proceeded very quickly. She is probably not cold but the feeling of someone younger 'wanting' her overwhelmed her. She thought she would not get caught and it might help your marriage (yea right, but Waywards brains do not function normally). I think for your cause it is better that she does not seem to be in the fog and that she is embarassed and ashamed of what happened. That is one thing that keeps most of us from doing anything this terrible.

I think she is lying about the 2x part, but then again it does not matter if it were 2x or 100x. What matters is that she has not come clean and told you the truth. I see not telling the truth as not being committed to the marriage (however she is still in protect her marriage by lying mode). I had to have the Truth and if I ever find any little lie, I will be going straight to Plan D. JMO

mg71,

This was PERFECT. You are making her "OWN" her actions, and she is again feeling how far the consequences of those actions reach. This will help her understand just how bad she F'd up, and how badly it has damaged your relationship. IMHO, it doesn't hurt at all for her to get glimpses of your ANGER ... think of it as RIGHTEOUS INDIGNATION.

Now to fit this in with the rest of your post:


First off, if this is truly "out of character" for her, then that bodes well for potential recovery.

I experienced a similar situation with my FWW ... a short term limited PA with no emotional attachment ... just the thrill and excitement of someone else paying her too much attention ... and I also got a good dose of the cold anger you are experiencing. There is one particular phrase that I still struggle with because it was so unnecessary and out of character for her to purposefully inflict such pain.

It is my belief that in these cases, this cold anger comes from the repeated and continued embarrrassment and remourse of having to face the consequences of their actions rather than the normal fogged out withdrawal from a more emotional A. They want so badly to just sweep all of this under the rug and get on with their lives, that they get extremely angry and defiant when they have to keep facing the consequences of their actions.

My FWW had led the life of the proverbial "good girl" without experiencing any real major life screw ups, and now that she had F'd Up BIG TIME, she was ill equipped to handle the consequences that were now RAINING down on her from multiple directions. Later that anger was channeled inward in the form of guilt as she began to take ownership of her actions, but originally she was looking for someone to lash out at, and I too became that convenient "a$$" just as you are now.

You're instincts are serving you well ... possibly better than an BH I have witnessed here at MB, but now is not the time to ease up and catch your breath. You will need to continue to challenge her anytime she trys to blame shift or repeat outright lies. The quicker she owns her stuff, the quicker her emotions will turn inward and real recovery can begin.

I struggled with the same issues you are for some time, but JustLearning spent quite a bit of time with me until I understood that for someone who truly made a "mistake", the measure of their character is how they react AFTER having made that mistake, rather than the lapses in judgment that led to the mistake.

FogFree (my FWW) and I now have a relationship comprised of two equal partners, rather than me defining myself by my past major life screw ups, while putting her on a pedestal of perfection.

“I told you we used protection every time but I guess you still don’t believe me."

This statement stood out to me when you posted it!!! If someone had sex only two time why would you say "Everytime" wouldn't you say 'Both times"???? Everytime makes it sound like more than two to me!!! But that is just how I processed that statement.

The big trouble with lies is keeping them straight...especially when you're angry and not thinking carefully. Sometimes the truth just accidentally slips out!

TJ/We could really get political with this statement...

But I won't do that his thread. /TJ

I agree with the others, this slip of the tongue was very telling (pun intended).

Absolutely!
Men get dignifed as they turn grey. Women get tired and haggard. Look at a commercial for a sports car. You might see a successful older man driving it, or a hot young woman. You'll NOT see an older woman driving the sports car. Our society does not allow women to age and maintain an allure of desire and envy.

Furthermore, men are visual creatures. Usually "attractive spouse" is a higher EN for men than for women. Women get wolf whistles and cat calls (or not) when they're young, and learn that this is a form of validation. Women hear men talking approvingly about females with huge ta-tas, or saying "I'd hit that". We hear men saying with disgust "What a fat cow!". We learn that looks and youth ARE important.

Then when the lines show up and the butt and boobs sag and the hairs turn grey and the belly pooches after delivering children and the flesh over the knees sags and varicose veins creep in and cellulite pops up... We're no longer hot and desirable and everything that is good about being young and female.

We become "just" a Mom or "just" a wife. We get lost in the shuffle. It's hard to adjust to - and I'm saying this as a woman who really doesn't give two hoots about looking good other than to be fit and clean. I don't color or style or highlight my hair, don't wear makeup, don't "do" my nails, don't own "cute" shoes. My lifestyle is not conducive to being fixed up. I'm fit, I'm fairly attractive, I'm clean, I have all my teeth and they're in good shape... And yet I struggle mightily with aging.

I miss the attention I got when I was younger. I miss that feeling of validation. I hear men talking and I realize that my glory days are past, though I'm barely middle aged.

So yeah. Having a hot young dude flip over her probably set your WW's head spinning. That was probably a HUGE rush for her. She felt young, vibrant, attractive, sexy - all those things that the media tells us women should be.

My FWH didn't go though any withdrawl from OW. It can happen. I consider it a blessing because witnessing a WS's withdrawl of a POS person sounds like torture from what I've read.


Not to add more stress to you mg71 but unless your wife has had her tubes tied or you have seen evidence of a recent menstrual cycle, you may want her to take a home pregnancy test ASAP. Just one more thing out of the way to give you some peace of mind.


And your WW knows this deep, deep down so just imagine how incredibly stupid she must feel. She does not want to admit this to herself.


The fog is still present because regardless of the motivation for the A the WS still has to cope with the fact that they choose to cheat. Most people get defensive even when they screw up a little bit and are called out on it so magnify an A a million times over and there you go...your WW can't handle the fact that she CHOOSE to act like a whore. Even though her A has been exposed she is still trying to do damage control. Her mind set is that while her A may have been bad, it wasn't THAT bad (assuming she can hide all the gory details from you and take them to her grave.) Your WW is pouting like a child because her mind is almost like that of a child right now. Children try to cover up and deny in hopes they don't get in trouble or at least in as little trouble as possible.

It will never make sense to you because there is no rational way to explain why otherwise smart/caring people could be so careless, reckless, pathetic and stupid. APs know what they are doing and they do it anyways. They know it can destroy their life and family but they do it anyway. I will never understand how waywards justify crap in their heads because when you objectively look at their actions (or even try from their point of view) there's no way to explain it. For the next coming weeks and months even when you tell yourself that there is no making sense of all this you will still find yourself trying to wrapping your brain around your wife's behavior and choices. At some point down the road you will have to accept that there is no logical explanation.

What happened with the email that you opened? Did it show as unread so she wouldn't suspect you reading her email?

What SHE was likely thinking: "A hot young dude flipping over me! I've still got "it". I'm still vibrant, attractive, sexy and sexy enough to turn on a young man!"

What HE was likely thinking: "Easy lay, with no strings attached. Something to do when my GF is not available. Plus, I'll have something on her that might come in handy later on if I need a favour."

There seems to be an assumption here that this really was no strings attached sex (i.e. sport f$%king as MyRev perfectly put it!:D)

If this was really all about a younger man being attracted to her while she went through a mid-life crisis, I would have expected that it would not have affected the marriage so thoroughly. I would have anticipated the wife to be doing OM on the side, but then coming home happy and chipper to her husband that met all of her other needs.

But MG71's wife had actually withdrawn emotionally from him and even told him ILYBNILWY line. That speaks more to the fact that she WAS emotionally invested in RRB as the new and preferred recipient of her feelings and affections.

Is it possible that the exposure was so nuclear that she literally can't fully process what has happened yet? Maybe the withdrawal will come later as her life settles down a bit. It just seems too convenient that there is no withdrawal considering her actions pre D-day.

MyRev,
Thanks for the kind words and encouragement. It is certainly helpful to see that you dealt with this same kind of reaction that is so different from the normal “WS fog” described on MB and that your marriage has recovered. How long did it take for your WW to make that turn and for her anger to be focused inward?

For everyone’s information, I know full well that they were together more than 2 times. OB’s fiancé, Meredith, was a former cheerleader last year and she has talked to people she still knows on the squad and gotten a lot of details that she has graciously passed on to me. I was so hesitant to expose every thing to her, but it has turned out to be the best thing I’ve done. Not only was it the right thing to do, but it has given me an ally that has much more access to info than I could ever have. She has told me that they were getting together in his apartment about 2X per week for the past month. I already know that it’s probably going to take a polygraph or at least the threat of a polygraph to get the whole truth from her. In the mean time, I’ll continue to use the info I get to force more and more of the truth out of her and then I’ll demand the polygraph and give her a laundry list of the lies she has told since d-day as proof to why I need it to move forward.

Turtle,
I think you have hit the nail on the head as to what was going on in her head during this whole affair. She swears that it was only physical with no emotions, but I believe there were more emotions involved than she understands. She may not have developed any feelings for OB, but she certainly developed an emotional attachment to the feelings this attention brought out in her. I think that for the first time in many years, she wasn’t a mom and a wife but she was just a woman, a woman who was sexy and attractive. So much of her identity has always been related to her looks. In school, she was always the “pretty” girl. When we were dating, she was always dressed to the hilt no matter where we were going. She loved the attention she got from turning heads wherever we went. My biggest concern going forward is how can I be sure that she won’t do this again when the next young guy comes along and gives her a little attention.

Also, to answer a question, I reset the email to unread as soon as I printed it off. She knows I read all of the old emails, but she has no clue about the keylogger. She thinks she just got careless and left the email up and I saw it.

mg71,

Get as much info from Meredith as you can ASAP. She may be cooperative now but at some point she's either going to walk and not care if OB was screwing your wife or if she stays with Rah Rah Boy she will focus and their relationship and stop communicating with you.