I'm glad you can say this. I will not argue it. I'm sure there are people who can say they could never have an A and really mean it. And after what I went through I would say I'm much less likely to ever consider or have an A. Kind of ironic, before my wife's A, I didn't think having A was this bad. Not that I thought it was ok or good, but not like this near death experience that I'm going through. You see it so much on TV, movies, etc. Its almost romanticized. I'm just saying during my wife's A when she withdrew from me (mainly emotionally) can I honestly say if some wonderful women came along and gave me her undivided attention and was the most attractive women in the world can I be some arrogant to say I would never ever do it. I know this might make me sound like a horrible person no better then a WS but just trying to be honest. Or at least try to understand in some small degree where my wife's head was. Can I judge my wife so harshly knowing that I am far from perfect? I'm not trying to excuse her A by any stretch just trying to understand it maybe from a different point of view. We are all weak and the real mistake was not working on our marriage enough in the 1st place.

It depends. If someone is not remorseful or repentant I don't think they deserve forgiveness. That doesn't mean that the offended party can't give it to them anyways but I don't think they'd necessarily deserve it. There are some things in life that I think are unforgiveable no matter what.

Care to elaborate?

I didn't say everyone does it, or even craves it.

It's certainly very prevalent. Prevalent enough that it's far from "abnormal". Such behavior is encoded in our DNA, although we still have to choose to act on it.

We're in a similar boat, Upside_Down. There's a disillusionment and loss of innocence there that will never be recovered.

Those steps you are taking to not allow either of you to be in tempting situations is wise -- however you want to slam the addiction analogy, you still don't want to take a recovering alcoholic to the neighborhood pub.

To your question about being second best: I can only offer my own 2 cents. These are some of the things I keep in mind:

1. Its not you vs. the OM. Its a skewed, twisted version of the worst parts of you that she's focusing on vs. a glorified, exalted view of the OM

2. Clearly, you are the better choice. You are her husband and have chosen to stick with her even after this huge betrayal. Would the selfish OM do this in your shoes? Yeah, right. The fact that she does not yet see that you are the better choice does not make you any less the better choice.

3. She is the one who is REALLY second-best. You COULD dump her and find someone who is better, or just merely FAITHFUL, and you would be within your rights. No one would blame you. You COULD go for something better. But you are CHOOSING to stay with her, a second-best choice. Think about it ... if you weren't married, and you could choose between her and someone who you knew would be faithful, who would you choose?

Lastly, I think what you are REALLY asking is how to get over the feeling that she doesn't love you like OM. Right now, she probably does not feel "love" towards you ... the good news is that there are tangible things you can do to make her feel that way about you again, and more! And you HAVE that opportunity .. USE it.

I'm pretty sure my WW is 100% remorseful and repentant. I have no doubt about that. Even though she lied to me and covered up the A way to many tears have been shed and questions asked into the wee hours of the night for her true feeling not to have shown through. I also exposed her family to the A which seemed to have helped. They are putting a lot of pressure on her. Do you think an A is unforgivable? I use to think that. I'm not so sure now. I think I can forgive but can I forget? Can I get past those triggers and the constant reminders. Can I get past all my doubts. At this point I just don't know.

I think this 'fog' is just a WS justifying their evil behavior. Like a kid closing his eyes and holding his hands over his ears while yelling LALALALALALALA so he doesn't have to listen to him mother.

Fog=Lame excuse to justify bad behavior.

Not an addiction, a choice.

I would have to agree with this one. Some times it hard to get past our genes. Monogamy is a social construct mainly. For good reason - but hardly the norm in the animal kingdom. From an evolutionarily standpoint monogamy doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Your chance of passing along your genes increases greatly with the greater number of partners you have. Simple math.

Wayward Spouses ALWAYS affair down. They NEED someone beneath them, who will admire them and give them feigned respect. Your wife was not seeking out the better, nicer looking man, she is taking whatever opportunity presents itself and meet her need for her top emotional needs, likely admiration and conversation, in order to boost her low self-esteem. HE IS NOT SPECIAL. If he happens to be younger and more handsome than you or older and more distinguished, educated or refined than you that is merely the luck of the draw and a RARITY...most of the time it IS NOT the case. After reading here you will discover that the OM could have been anyone and your wife's choice of OM was not in any way an indication or indictment of you as a kind, thoughful, attractive, desirable, intelligent, mature, moral, loyal, spiritual man, husband and father.

OM is, I guarantee, no match for you.

YOU are, and have always been God's perfect choice for her.

That is a FACT and you doubting such fact is the only real problem you have to overcome here. Such power is within yourself. "Doubting" your value is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Recover is tough unless YOU believe this.

The "upside" to this is that it's YOU that has the problem with reality here and fixing yourself is easier than fixing her.

YOU ARE THE BETTER MAN...BECAUSE YOU SAY SO.

Mr. Wondering


p.s. - the guy is about 15 years your senior. He's not better looking or, at least, won't be for long. 50 and distinguish will parlay to old way before you lose your looks. Plus, he only works part time. So he's a slacker, too. He just sounds like a lonely and desperate old man with too much time on his hands. :RollieEyes: So what that he can talk and talk and talk. If you apply the MB principles, you and your wife can undertake to add recreational companionship activities that will give you both something to talk and talk and talk about. My wife and I, talk a lot about MB. MB, itself, has given us soooo much to talk about the last three years.

p.p.s. - As a man...YOU define your own masculinity.

Good point. Didn't think of it that way.


She has said this herself. I just don't beleive her.


This one I would probably disagree. I'm pretty certain the OM would be with her given his choice. He just kicked his own wife out of his house after he found out she was fooling around with someone. Kind of hypercritical, huh? My wife is choosing not to be with him. Does that make me the better choice? I guess overall. But if my wife was 18 again before kids and my wife had to choose between the OM and me? Not so sure what the answer would be. That's what tears me up because part of me feels she would choose the OM.



This is good point. At first after the A I was thinking she destroyed me and nobody would want me but now I'm thinking its her who made the poor choice and I could find someone else IF I was looking which at this point I'm choosing not to. I think this scares her a lot. She is afraid I'm not going to get over this and walk out.




This is exactly how I feel. And wondering if she can ever love me like she loved the OM. I'm trying to do good things but sometimes I get so down on myself that's it hard. I give everyone here a lot of credit for the Plan A'ing. I find it really really hard.

This is awesome! Thinking that we're second best is a waste of time -- its indulging a lie. We need to believe the truth -- that we are God's choice our spouse, and then ACT like it.

True dat...and you can then free your mind to get along to more important aspects of recovery.

Whether you recover or not...the FACT that you are better won't change.

Walk the walk and the sooner she'll have no choice but to believe it herself...hopefully, before SHE loses your azz.

NOTHING SPELLS REPENTENCE AND REASSURES A BS LIKE A WS THAT COMES TO AND EXPRESSES THE SHOCKING REVELATION THAT THEY ALMOST LOST YOU. The more wonderful, confident and secure you are...the sooner that will happpen.

Thinking you aren't better is defeatest idle thinking and a waste of time. It's NEVER TRUE. God doesn't make mistakes. If she divorces you...it's her loss and her mistake...NOT God's.

Mr. Wondering

Why not? This is very likely true. Her whole relationship with OM was within the confines of a fantasy. No chores, housework, conflicts, issues, finances, etc. to deal with, only affection affection affection. If she lived with him for awhile, she would start to see that this guy is NOT all she thinks he is.

As a side note, I think you may need to give your WW the benefit of the doubt here. If she says that this is the way she sees it, and she is repentant and remorseful, it is very likely the way she really sees it. There is nothing to be gained by second-guessing this. One of the things we BSes need to guard against is self-pity. Some of this pain is self-inflicted pain and unnecessary as well as unhelpful to our recovery. You know what I mean?


I think the fact that OM kicked his wife out just proves my point that you are the better man.

Observe the difference in reactions to finding your wife has been unfaithful. You are willing to drop everything, work on the relationship, work on forgiveness and restoration. Even being hurt and betrayed, you demonstrate your love to her. You demonstrate your integrity.

OM simply kicks his WW out. He is only interested in satisfying his own pleasures. Furthermore, the fact that he engaged another woman shows that he is an unfaithful, hypocritical adulterer himself. He does not love, he USES. He has NO integrity, is a rotting corpse.

Any sane woman would pick you over OM. Now, your WW might not be sane, but that's her problem, not yours.

I'm not sure a divorced person is welcome on this thread but I did struggle with feeling second best. Partly because the OM actually dumped my xW before she decided to come back to her family. My xW kept all of their correspondence, including her letters to him which he gave her when he dumped her.

At first when I read those I felt really crappy about myself, he was older, shorter, less successful, less intelligent and practically impotent. At first, I just put myself lower than him in my own mind and that did hurt. Now, when I think about it I just have to conclude that xW was crazy. At this point, I would be perfectly willing to stand naked in front of a crowd of people with this guy and have them vote on who is better. That doesn't even take into account that I was always faithful, a good provider and a great dad. Even if your wayward does think you are second best, or did think it for a while, does not make it true. Just think about it from the point of view that. A cheating wife decided he was better. Not a great reference.

It’s not?

So you’re saying its “normal” to CRAVE (your word) sex with a WIDE VARIETY of partners.

I guess I, and a few other bazillion folks just aren’t NORMAL then. Thank goodness!

Lord have mercy ...

That is truly misconception of the term "fog"..."Fog" justifies NOTHING...There is nothing and no way to "justify" an affair...It was wrong yesterday, today and will be equally as wrong tomorrow and forever..."Fog" is merely an EXPLANATION of some of the nutty stuff said and done by a WS - Now sure a WS TRIES to rationalize and justify an affair which is where their fog comes from - you can't actually rationalize the irrational or justify the unjustifiable, but that doesn't stop the WS from trying, and THAT is the reason they sound and act so crazy to sane and rational people...It's unfortunate that the term "fog" gets so misconstrued around here...

Addiction and choice are not either/or concepts...Addicts CHOOSE their "drug of choice" and choose to remain addicted...They CAN and DO choose to stop as well...Otherwise there would be no such thing as a recovering addict and there most certainly are many, many recovering addicts...

Mrs. W

MsWondering,

The fog is a hard thing to understand because from my point of view it is hard to tell where the lies to me ended and the lies to herself started. If you want to see it all as scheming and lies then it is easy to do that. I never got any good explanation for what happened and I probably never will.

I went through the phase of feeling second rate but I am over it now. I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that xW was second rate.

I absolutely agree and disagree.

I agree, that there is a choice, but sometimes the "drug" is so powerful once you are in the cycle of addiction that you lose the choice.

In the case of my WH, he has been living in a dry drunk for so many years. He, like me was miserable and we were trying ANYTHING to fix us. He chose to become involved, but he was already living in the addiction mind because of his selfishness, self-seeking way of life. He HATED himself and OW brought the "fix" to all his unhappiness.

I understand that pain, I lived it to, I lived the craziness, the insanity of the disease of addiction. My children lived it. The chaos, the upheaval, the fighting etc.

WH thinks OW is his "answer" to happiness, like the drug was. But what he doesn't understand it's not her, me or anyone else's job to make him happy. That's between him and G-d and since he is running from G-d, well the addictive mind can convince yourself an ANYTHING....

Consider the fortunes of a BS (glass half full analysis)


As a BS...you have two separate and distinct paths to future happiness.

1. Recover your marriage with your WS and rebuild of marriage of extraordinary care which is mutually satisfying to both of you (and pleasing to any and all children involved)

2. Divorce your spouse and, having learned some valuable lessons from your pain, move on to another gratifying relationship (after you've completed your divorce). As a BS, you are given a legitimate "out" to your marital vows and God WILL provide for you if you trust in Him.


As a WS...you only have ONE path to happiness.

1. Repentence and, if the BS will have you, a rebuilt marriage of extraordinary care which is mutually satisfying to both of you (and pleasing to any and all children involved).


There will be NO unrepentant adulterers in heaven. The BS is the only one that has the power and the right to truly determine the "happiness" the WS will find the rest of his or her life (and thereafter). It may seem YOUR choices are limited and it all comes down to what your WS decides to do...but ultimately, they have ONLY ONE CHOICE FOR PEACE AND TRUE HAPPINESS...YOU.


Smoke that waywards.

Mr. Wondering

MrWondering,

I don't buy any of the god/ supreme being punish the wayward stuff.

The best way for me to think of it is. I'm not going to let the analysis of someone who cheats on their spouse determine my self worth. Clearly that would be giving too much credence to a person of dubious judgment. Even if the other guy was a super stud, he was wiling to sleep with a married woman, that puts him below me as far as I am concerned.

Thanks. Just curious how do you deal with those feelings of feeling 2nd best? I feel like I will be in the same place 2 years from now as well. Any particular reasons (besides the obvious of the A) that you feel 2nd best?