Ears:

Now remember, I am the most pessimistic person you have ever "met". So take my words with more than one grain of salt.

My wife and I have moved together 3 times. One was OK. One was great. One was terrible. We are now living in the terrible.

To me, moving away from friends and family is a huge negative. We did and we are miserable here. The older your kids are, the harder it is to make new adult friends. To do it, you will have to dive into some activity outside the home where you see the same people over and over. How does that sound to you?

Yes, moving can provide the motivation to make a "clean break" with the past. But it doesn't accomplish that break. It only facilitates it. If you don't choose to take advantage of the opportunity, you are the same person with the same problems and less roots in the community to handle the stress.

I think the plant analogy is apt. When you did up a plant and move it, you damage the roots. The plant will be weaker immediately following replanting. If the replanting is successful, the new place had better be alot better for the plant than the old place was. Or the plant is going to have to be VERY determined to make the best of the new spot.

Hold, thanks for that reminder, too. I am a "dive into outside activity" person. I have made friends in Alanon since I joined 3 years ago that I think I will keep for a lifetime, even if we move. It does take more initiative to make that happen now that my kids are older. I've asked a few neighbors out for lunch together. When we were in Minnesota and California, I joined activities, too. DD12 and I were in a community theater production of The Music Man. It was a huge time investment, though, so we haven't done that again.

It is a balance between the outside activites and FC time and UA time. It was a lot easier when the kids were little and it was all part of FC time with them.

That said, my kids and H are not wired to enjoy doing that. They will go when someone asks them, if they are interested, but don't call folks to get together. Not bad, just different. But I think that can make it more difficult to settle into a new place.

I have moved a few times now against my better judgment. But I built up a LOT of resentment each time, even though I did try very hard to make the best of it. I am learning and practicing sharing O&H along the way and making decisions I am enthusiastic about, too, instead of building resentment.

I have something pretty cool to share A really good friend of mine moved to the northeast 6 years ago, and arranged to come down here for a work conference with her family last weekend. Instead of telling me, she called another good friend, who was planning a surprise 35th bash for me at a really fun Polynesian restaurant with a show and gardens, a tourist spot, that I always had wanted to go to. She changed the date to when my friend and her family would be down.

So H and the kids bring me to this surprise destination, which I was hoping would be this place, and it was And even cooler, I get inside, and it's all my friends! And as I go around saying hi, I see my friends' kids, so I realize she is there, too, from out of town

And it doesn't stop there, the kids went with them to the resort they were staying at for a sleepover, so H and I got some rare alone time, and then we got to spend the rest of the weekend at the resort. We took them on an airboat tour in the everglades yesterday, another thing we don't do very often, it was so peaceful, and we got so close to an alligator that he had to back away.

And another really good friend who moved away also came down this weekend, and I'll get to see her this evening. When it rains it pours!

WOW, that's an awesome birthday party!!!

You have some wonderful friends ears, they must care for you a lot!!!

I do have amazing friends, and it does put the moving thing into perspective. My friend who moved away, when she comes back, it's a strain to see everyone. But you know what, it's okay, anyhow. It's great when we do get together. She divorced her WH 5 years ago, and remarried last year. They both learned a lot from their first experiences, and are very O&H and respectful this time.

Saturday is our last MC appointment. I'd promised H and our MC that I would keep an open mind through the rest of this process, and I think I have fulfilled that, along with doing the homework.

I am struggling again with letting go of the response. I think that is a sign that I'm not done with Plan A yet. I felt really at peace the last time that I'd decided, so I am patient with myself and waiting for that peace to come back. We really have done a lot of growth these last months. I am grateful for that.

We still have no working Rule Of Protection or two-sided POJA in our home. This was my goal in MC.

So you do see some improvement?


Do you think you're being too rigid, in wanting the improvements to follow a set format or be able to have a particular label?


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I don't know, this also seems a bit rigid to me. If there are steps in the right direction, everyone is different so those steps may look different in different cases, right? Are you giving him positive feedback when he makes efforts even if the efforts are in his own style?

Absolutely. We've been taking date nights together, and we've had homework of some wonderful affection exercises. We each gave each other a full massage last week. He today suggested taking some trips together to places that I've asked about for years and he was unwilling to even consider before saying no. He doesn't DJ me when I POJA time to visit with my sister. It's had a big affect on me, his willingness, his touch.


Rule of Protection is "Don't be the cause of your spouse's unhappiness." I don't view that as rigid or a format or a label. This EN stuff we've been doing has been an amazing gift. I also need protection from him gaining at my expense. Like the drinking, the poor work boundaries, the periodic AOs when I voice my concerns or don't go along with demands. If he can't provide that protection, that's okay, I can.

I hear that you see it as rigid, and would like to understand. How do this strike you as rigid? What is the rigid part? I don't see where there is room for him knowingly choosing to hurt me. Or DJing and AOing me when I share my hurt.


These are all things that H and I have in the up parts of our cycles. When I first read that list, I was really reassured, because those were all things we had at least a little of at the time. Maybe it does seem rigid. I don't see room for compromise on any of these.



Yes, I am working hard to meet his ENs, too. I have taken care of the kids when he is out of town, as he is this week again. I've been doing well with the DS and FS, which are very big for him, for a long time now. I've been buying him special treats he likes, like food gifts and clothes, which he says he likes. I tell him every day how much I appreciate him. That's not how he hears appreciation, so I've been doing lots of Acts of Service, too, like fixing him coffee and getting the paper for him. I'm going tonight to get him from the airport.

And I feel so free from the LBs. H hasn't said "Ouch" all week.

That all sounds great!

Sorry, I was asking about being rigid and wanting things to follow a set format because I thought I heard you saying things were getting better but you still had given up hope and were unwilling to continue past this last MC session. It isn't that I thought any of the things on the list were not good, I just thought you were saying because the good things didn't fit in the list, that you still planned to separate. You didn't mention separation, I was assuming. Thanks for clarifying about the good things.

Have you decided what to do, with him potentially moving to CA? Are you going to continue past this last MC session?

No, we aren't continuing MC. H is going to CA when this work project is done, in December or Januray. My plan is still to separate. H has been a huge blessing to me; I just can't do this anymore. Invest my life in a partnership where when push comes to shove, H makes decisions and I'm left to deal with the consequences. It's been a pattern so ingrained, that if I stay, it's a choice to volunteer for more. Better to leave now while I still have love left for him. Because I don't want to volunteer for hurt any more. Is that what you mean by rigid, that I still want to separate even though it's improving?

We have temporarily improved before. I'm looking for mutual respect in the present as a signal that this is a permanent change. Like those examples. But I don't see it. I see a man still willing to hurt me.

I'm glad you're still ready to separate. Not because I want you to, but because I hear you protecting yourself. You're such a good role model for me.

Jayne, on your thread, you talked about how you don't see your H talking more as a possiblity. I am keeping an open mind about possibilities, but I don't see my H giving up drinking or even giving up getting drunk in the present. He would not tell you that he disagrees, but understands my concern. He would tell you that I'm nuts to say that. Like he told our MC.

That's why I went to the Imago counselor instead of calling the Harleys. Dr. Harley worked in a rehab place early in his career. So I think they would have seen right away that the drinking is an issue and we need to address that first. So I'm addressing it, with separation.

Thanks, cat. H brought up separation Sunday, and he said, if I thought about separating to get some clarity and then reconciling a year later, that I'm mistaken. That he doesn't see us reconciling. Good to know. I let go of the response. He's leaving, anyhow, regardless of whether I call it separating or working on it.

I am grateful that I stuck it out in Plan A longer past our trials in September. I see that I am capable of a loving, healthy relationship, instead of going along to get along.

Well if he's still hurting you then I'm glad you are willing to take the steps to protect yourself. I guess I'm reading too much of my own sitch into yours, and I'm too easily convinced all is well. I am saddened to hear that he's going to leave without you and that he doesn't see any hope of reconciliation if you don't go with him. I know that sometimes I forget how bad things are in your M, until you mention the drinking and stuff. I hope you don't think I as judging you, I was just offering up ideas, with a very poor memory.

Do you want to take steps to protect the family, like financially, child support, visitation, something stating that the kids will remain living with you?

Oh, jayne! I thought for many years, too that everything was okay when the bad cycles were over. I am human, this is how I'm wired. It takes what it takes. I wonder if H hadn't had this work travel thing these last few months, while we were working with this really good counselor who made so much sense to us, that we would have stood a better shot. Or if H's dry spell with the drinking had been a longer cycle instead of a shorter one. But it is what it is.

I didn't see you as judging me, I see you as sharing the same values. To give kids a healthy two-parent home. It may be a long shot, but cat's been right about a lot so far, and she and several others have told me that H may feel differently when he's alone. Or he may not.

The next step will be to make legal plans. I was waiting until after Saturday to discuss it with H. I was used to saying, "I don't talk divorce, I talk marriage," and I still feel that way. This isn't the outcome I'd hoped for, but I'll make the best of the situation. So when H brought it up, I didn't know what to say, so I listened and repeated and changed the subject. "I hear you don't plan on reconciling. Good to know. Would you like some coffee?"

I have a friend who was able to draft the agreements with her STBX, and all the lawyer had to do was review it. They each paid half. And I hear there is mediation, too. I think we can do this amicably.

I see a bit of your husband trying to call your bluff in this one. He says something like "Don't expect me to take you back in a year if we split up". I don't necessarily see this a daring you, but saying that if you break up, he doesn't expect to get back together.

Something else you said rang a bell with me. You said that it appears that he is still willing to hurt you. I don't think he sees it that way, its that he is still willing to do independent behaviour. The drinking falls under that category as does the moving all the time.

I think you have a good plan in allowing him to move to CA without you. You may have issues with him however if he suddenly decides he doesn't have to pay child support. Do you have sufficient income to make it on your own, at least in the interim? The way you've described his jobs makes me think that he might be working as a contractor. People in this role have the capacity to hide a lot of income when it comes to determining child support amounts.

You might be wise to consult a divorce attorney before discussing separation agreements with your dh. At least you will understand what you have a right to when hashing out a monetary agreement.

I didn't take it as a dare, either, just as sharing his perspective. His buddy's wife left him, and hos buddy did nothing to try to talk to her about this decision or try to reconcile. I see H as of that mindset, too. That he sees the solution as me deciding to be happy with his IB. I have one SiL who is doing well with that. The others have all left over the years.

I joined Alanon, because that is a program that helps folks make a happy life despite the IB, LBs, and the unmet ENs. And my life is a lot happier. But I see when H is out of town how much kinder life is to me without him here. If I had less choices, I think I could make a life worth living out of what I have here, too. But I'm grateful to have other choices.

I have fought it a long time, but I have finally come to acceptance with this and the other IB. I don't see H as a father who would not be fully involved in his kids' life, and I don't think that he'd punish them in quality of life. I am fortunate that our fixed expenses are modest and my income is enough to cover them alone if it came to that.

Thanks for the reminder, I will speak to a family law friend before discussing specific agreements.

Not sure if I should start a new thread? H and I are talking through separation. He says I've let him down on his dream to go to CA. I totally can relate to that. I feel like I am having to give up a dream of mine, too, to stay married to my kids' dad. To be married once, for life.

I realized what it would take for me to be enthusiastic about CA. That my fear was about being stranded in a new place with this disease. I shared with him, if he's willing to give up the drinking, that I would go. He said that I just don't understand, that he has a family history of heart disease, and wine daily is proven to minimize that risk. That he will not endanger his health in this way. I do understand that makes sense to him. He may be right. That's very different than how I understand preventing heart disease. It's okay if we believe two very different things.

He said he didn't want to talk about separation, that he wanted to go straight to D. I said, I understand that, but I think we should give it some time, we may feel differently when we're apart. He was open to hearing me when I said that, and agreed to separation instead. I told him that I would like to live together until the end of the year, and then tell the kids at that time. He doesn't feel that way, but will think on it and let me know.

I have a family law attorney friend who lives in the next county; I'll call her to ask her for a referral. I am hoping that we could do something like mediation, instead of getting two lawyers, since I think a separation between two people who agree on the terms would be a simple thing. My friend who divorced didn't get a LSA, so I'm not sure if we need one.

I hadn't considered that this would be difficult for him. I thought that his heart was very closed to me. It's sad to see him hurting, too.

{{{ears}}}

Boy, if that isn't right out of the AA Guide to Justifications 101 book. So sad for him. Sad that he can't be honest with the one person on earth he should be able to be honest with. You realize that's shame, right?

Don't start a new thread just yet, 'k?

Cat, I did hear that as justification. I started to reply that I heard brisk walking is good for preventing heart disease, too. But this is my role in the dance, not letting go of his response. Not healthy. So I walked away.