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nia17 Offline OP
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I guess it is a matter of perspective. I feel that way about you at times Nia. I have learned that the ignore feature works wonders for my stress level. If FH bothers you, why not ignore him?
_________________________

Good point. Thank you for the pointing that out. I should probably do that, I guess the reason I don't is because I fee that FH actually offers interesting information and perspective sometimes.
There have been times when he has engaged w/ me that I don't feel myself wanting to go on the defense...or offense, for that matter.

Medc,
I had no intention of this thread being against republicans or fighting for the democrats. I have very mixed political leanings and find it difficult to associate myself w/ either party if I go striclty on the issues. I sometimes see that in you......yet, you are much better at compartmentalization than I am.

By the way, I didn't post the info about Montgemery County to condrasict you...I was actually very surprised by what I read. I still have some friends and relatives who live there.

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Originally Posted by nia17
By the way, I didn't post the info about Montgemery County to condrasict you...I was actually very surprised by what I read. I still have some friends and relatives who live there.

His information is wrong. There was a typo in the Inquirer that the bloggers jumped all over to spin it into a "108% vote", but there is no evidence of this. The actual voting results are shown in the link I gave you on the last page.

AGG


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Originally Posted by nia17
You change every thread into a fight against the OTHER side.
it is exhausting.

I see you've been looking in the mirror. Don't care much for the "reflection," do you?


So WHICH side has "been about" attacking Palin and Republicans?

Perhaps you mean those magnanimous individuals who's side "won" the election?

Or maybe it's just as simple as not wanting anyone to question anything about the liberal "side" or anything they "have a right to say?"

Nia, I ENDED my discussion, or so I thought, of this subject with the biblical directive to recognize that for good or bad, Obama has been allowed by God to rule, "by will of the majority of the people" and for God's ultimate purposes.

But that wasn't "good enough" for you.

Now you want to resort to whining to "make your point."

Give me a break.

You want to use the "Ignore" button, have at it. But I have NEVER said that anyone had to "agree with me 100% on every issue." NOR do I have to agree with you or anyone else 100% on every issue.

There ARE three major things that "govern" my opinions and the positions that I take:

1. My relationship with God as a Christian,

2. My belief in Conservativism and Capitalism.

3. My belief that as "fallen, sinful beings," ALL humans have a tendency to use selfishness and self-interest as their "reasons" for what they do.

Some will agree and some will disagree with any or all of those points, but I WILL "argue" for each of them if the circumstances present a need for comment rather than silence.


Quote
OFCOURSE, the description applies to democrats too....THAT was never the point....but, THEY won the election this time

Don't be disingenous. You DID NOT "make it clear" that it "applies to democrats too. You made it a "one-sided" accusation against Republicans, period. And THAT IS "the point."



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Originally Posted by AGoodGuy
Originally Posted by nia17
By the way, I didn't post the info about Montgemery County to condrasict you...I was actually very surprised by what I read. I still have some friends and relatives who live there.

His information is wrong. There was a typo in the Inquirer that the bloggers jumped all over to spin it into a "108% vote", but there is no evidence of this. The actual voting results are shown in the link I gave you on the last page.

AGG

I saw that info. Thanks. But,
I was referring to the statistics that said Montgomery County voted for Gore and Kerry.....I lived in Pennsylvania 2000-20004, and that surprised me.
I am not surprised that Obama won Montgemery County THIS year, but I figured there were severel reasons that contributed to that.

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Don't worry nia,

FH is a part of the immoral, yet, powerful health insurance industry mafia.

If he can justify his industries 30% cut off the top of the entire cost of medical care in this country by calling for "tort reform" when everyone knows that medical malpractice industry represents less than 1% of the cost of medical care in this country....then he's not really quite the able thinker.

Blame the lawyers is really code speak to the health insurance cartel. They could care less if someone was really injured or not. They ONLY care about finding ways to reduce THEIR costs and THEIR risk so they can continue to maximize their profits for their shareholders at the expense of policy holders. They will seek out and find any outrageous or questionable lawsuit, however rare, and shine a HUGE light on it to make it appear the norm rather than the LARGE exception. Most medical malpractice claims ARE legitimate efforts to seek a reasonable remedy for legitimate injuries. MOST are settled behind closed doors and sealed in secrecy. The problem I have with Tort Reform is having the medical insurance lobby define what is a "reasonable remedy". That just doesn't seem fair to me and I guarantee it wouldn't seem fair anyone reading this IF IT WAS YOU THAT WAS INJURED and SUBSTANTIALLY UNDERCOMPENSATED FOR SUCH INJURY BASED UPON SOME CAPRICIOUSLY PLACED CAP. (your life is only worth about $300,000 in Michigan) That being said...IMO, reasonable and flexible caps aren't horrible as they encourage settlement. Settlements are good for all involved...protracted litigation is not. I just don't want the largest and most well funded lobbies in the world (medical & Insurance Lobby) essentially setting grossly unreasonalbe caps.

Unlike FH, who as a immoral profiteer on the current health system and is, thus, biased when it comes to the issue of single payer health care, I am not a medical malpractice attorney. However, I can justify NINTY-NINE PERCENT (99%) of what the mdical malpractic bar does on behalf of individuals legitimately harmed by the medical industry. They represent INJURED persons and give them their day in court to seek remedies for their injuries. INDIVIDUALS harmed, often unemployed and facing the overwhelming task of taking on a MASSIVE and CASH RICH hospital, medical practice and/or doctor. Except in certain areas and states of the country, there is just no money to be made undertaking frivilous claims. It's just to expensive to start them.


On the flip side. The health insurance industry cost to health care is 30 times higher than the legal industry's. How can you justify 10-20-30, let alone 99% of the SUBSTANTIALLY LARGER cost your industry imposes upon our medical system??? What do health insurance companies actually do that provides anyone health care on a day to day basis? What do you do that justifies THAT large a BURDEN on the entire cost of everyone's medical care?

IMO...NOTHING. It's just protection money. I HAVE to pay if I want access to health care and don't want to become homeless obtaining it should I get sick and need it. You would DENY me health care...in the future...if I don't pay today. Not to mention that in the future...you will do everything in your power to deny me health care should I need it. I am only really valuable to YOU if I stay healthy. If I get sick, I become your liability and your "bad experience". If it weren't for the actual medical professionals behind you...I'm certain your industry would love to find ways to promote death over the expensive proposition of protracted disability. Oh yeah...they do, but they call it delaying and denying of approval for treatments in hopes the powerless "liability" dies before jumping through all the hoops to get the procedures.



Another thing to consider, MOST of any personal injury award is given to provide FUTURE medical care (which is why it's cheaper for the hospital to kill you rather than disable you). If we had a single payer system...awards would be lowered, automatically since future medical would be covered by the single payer system. Thus, it's highly likely that most medical malpractice lawyers probably don't want a single payer system either. You guys might oughta rethink your failing strategy of blaming the lawyers and using the deflection tactic of demanding tort reform....instead maybe try building bridges with your potential allies instead of knocking them down. Recall, people thought the Titanic was unsinkable too.

Mr. Wondering


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Quote:OFCOURSE, the description applies to democrats too....THAT was never the point....but, THEY won the election this time

Don't be disingenous. You DID NOT "make it clear" that it "applies to democrats too. You made it a "one-sided" accusation against Republicans, period. And THAT IS "the point."
*****************************

I guess that's your POV, FH.
I was NOT being disingenuous, I just don't think you understood where I wa scoming from. That's ok....I don't want to fight w/ you anymore.

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3. My belief that as "fallen, sinful beings," ALL humans have a tendency to use selfishness and self-interest as their "reasons" for what they do.


"Self-interest" Indeed.



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Originally Posted by nia17
I saw that info. Thanks. But,
I was referring to the statistics that said Montgomery County voted for Gore and Kerry.....I lived in Pennsylvania 2000-20004, and that surprised me.
I am not surprised that Obama won Montgemery County THIS year, but I figured there were severel reasons that contributed to that.

Apparently MontCo has gone Democratic over the past two decades:

Quote
1976- Ford 57%, Carter 41%
1980- Reagan 58%, Carter 31%
1984- Reagan 64%, Mondale 35%
1988- Bush 60%, Dukakis 39%
1992- Clinton 43%, Bush 40%
1996- Clinton 49%, Dole 41%
2000- Gore 54%, Bush 44%
2004- Kerry 56%, Bush 44%

LINK



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Blame the lawyers is really code speak to the health insurance cartel. They could care less if someone was really injured or not. They ONLY care about finding ways to reduce THEIR costs and THEIR risk so they can continue to maximize their profits for their shareholders at the expense of policy holders.
******************************

AHHHHH....you just hit a very raw nerve, Mr. W.
I just had to fly my son home from college for emergency surgery becuse my insurance wouldn't cover it in Phila.
And, I had them explain the entire policy to me BEFORE he went to school there becuse he has a chronic illness that could possibly land in him the ER. They said any emergency would be covered. BUT, he broke his leg in an accident and they refused the surgery.....The hospital in Phila. called to tell me this and said they were very surprised and that I should call them because he NEEDED to have the surgery within the next 48 hours to save the use of his leg. The insurance company told me I could appeal it but that they had every righ to deny it.

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Originally Posted By: nia17You change every thread into a fight against the OTHER side.
it is exhausting.

I see you've been looking in the mirror. Don't care much for the "reflection," do you?


So WHICH side has "been about" attacking Palin and Republicans?

Perhaps you mean those magnanimous individuals who's side "won" the election?

Or maybe it's just as simple as not wanting anyone to question anything about the liberal "side" or anything they "have a right to say?"

Nia, I ENDED my discussion, or so I thought, of this subject with the biblical directive to recognize that for good or bad, Obama has been allowed by God to rule, "by will of the majority of the people" and for God's ultimate purposes.

But that wasn't "good enough" for you.

Now you want to resort to whining to "make your point."

Give me a break.

You want to use the "Ignore" button, have at it. But I have NEVER said that anyone had to "agree with me 100% on every issue." NOR do I have to agree with you or anyone else 100% on every issue.
*************************************

FH....
First of all, I have not put you on ignore becuse I do value your opinions and feel you have the right to them.
I would only consider putting you on ignore if I felt your posts where causing me stress but I still wanted to post here. I am not there yet.

Let me try this again....
I get the feeling we are both responding to what we THINK we know about the other and not specifics.
When I read your post above, I don't know what to make of it..... My reflection??
*I* have hardly posted on the political threads of the last couple of months, I am not a democrat and I have not "attacked" Palin on any of these threads, so your accusation of me does not apply there.
I am not happy w/ the republican party right now, and have posted that....but, not to say the OTHER side is always right.
I did not realize you had ENDED a discussion on the subject (perhaps I didn't see that post) so, it had nothing to do w/ your resposne not being good enough for me.
You posted to me and I responded to THAT post......
As far as whining to 'make my point' goes.......

Fine....you can considering it whining....but, the POINT I am trying to make right now is that It's clear you never understood my point in the first place ......I am not trying to get you to change your opinion and that I do not want to fight with you.

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Originally Posted by MrWondering
Quote
3. My belief that as "fallen, sinful beings," ALL humans have a tendency to use selfishness and self-interest as their "reasons" for what they do.


"Self-interest" Indeed.

Oh please, Mr. W. Look in the mirror why don't you?


You made it quite clear in past discussions you were in support of Abortion on Demand, and with it the slaughter of millions of innocent babies....all on the altar of selfishness and self-interest.

So please spare me your lame attempts at trying to "paint me" as some self-interested "minion" of the insurance industry.

Can some changes be had? Yes. Are some changes needed? Yes.

But you think that a government run healthcare system is the "answer." You think that Doctors paying over $100,000 per year for Malpractice Insurance just to protect themselves from greedy attorneys "isn't" part of the problem of the high cost of health care.

What would YOU have to charge just to cover the cost of malpractice insurance before you make one dime to pay staff or yourself?

Why do you think that I MUST (as in mandatory) pay for and carry Errors and Omissions Insurance? For the same reason.

Just as SOME Doctors ARE guilty of malpractice, SOME Insurance Agents have pushed products SOLELY to make a buck. I EARN my living in the insurance world by placing my clients needs ahead of my own need to "make a buck."

So please don't even attempt to lecture me on what I do or don't do in the process of providing very much needed protection for individuals.

Why don't you think about "going after" Congress, which HAS stolen the money from Social Security, can't fund Medicare without constantly raising the deductibles and copays AND raising the premium the government charges EVERY YEAR, and which wouldn't lift a finger to pass the legislation introduced by McCain to avoid disaster at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac?

Oh no. You prefer to demonize an industry that SHIFTS the risk of PAYING for services from the individual to the Insurance Company.

By the way, WHY do you have mandated auto insurance for your car even though you are responsible driver and DON'T have accidents or drive drunk and hurt other people?

Why DO you have Homeowners Insurance on your home, even though you take care of your home to keep it from being destroyed?

Why DO you have Health Insurance, even though you are "health as an ox" and don't use it much at all?


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Originally Posted by nia17
Blame the lawyers is really code speak to the health insurance cartel. They could care less if someone was really injured or not. They ONLY care about finding ways to reduce THEIR costs and THEIR risk so they can continue to maximize their profits for their shareholders at the expense of policy holders.
******************************

AHHHHH....you just hit a very raw nerve, Mr. W.
I just had to fly my son home from college for emergency surgery becuse my insurance wouldn't cover it in Phila.
And, I had them explain the entire policy to me BEFORE he went to school there becuse he has a chronic illness that could possibly land in him the ER. They said any emergency would be covered. BUT, he broke his leg in an accident and they refused the surgery.....The hospital in Phila. called to tell me this and said they were very surprised and that I should call them because he NEEDED to have the surgery within the next 48 hours to save the use of his leg. The insurance company told me I could appeal it but that they had every righ to deny it.

Let me guess, you have an HMO possibly?

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Quote
I get the feeling we are both responding to what we THINK we know about the other and not specifics.

That is quite possible.

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Originally Posted by ForeverHers
Originally Posted by nia17
Blame the lawyers is really code speak to the health insurance cartel. They could care less if someone was really injured or not. They ONLY care about finding ways to reduce THEIR costs and THEIR risk so they can continue to maximize their profits for their shareholders at the expense of policy holders.
******************************

AHHHHH....you just hit a very raw nerve, Mr. W.
I just had to fly my son home from college for emergency surgery becuse my insurance wouldn't cover it in Phila.
And, I had them explain the entire policy to me BEFORE he went to school there becuse he has a chronic illness that could possibly land in him the ER. They said any emergency would be covered. BUT, he broke his leg in an accident and they refused the surgery.....The hospital in Phila. called to tell me this and said they were very surprised and that I should call them because he NEEDED to have the surgery within the next 48 hours to save the use of his leg. The insurance company told me I could appeal it but that they had every righ to deny it.

Let me guess, you have an HMO possibly?


yep....and it was the only option we had in this location. My H's company has much better coverage and more options where it's headquatered. I have had HMO's (I prefer a PPO) that worked out fine for us...THIS one is awful!

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Originally Posted by ForeverHers
Originally Posted by MrWondering
Quote
3. My belief that as "fallen, sinful beings," ALL humans have a tendency to use selfishness and self-interest as their "reasons" for what they do.


"Self-interest" Indeed.

Oh please, Mr. W. Look in the mirror why don't you?

You made it quite clear in past discussions you were in support of Abortion on Demand, and with it the slaughter of millions of innocent babies....all on the altar of selfishness and self-interest.

Though completely irrelevant to the "self-interest"/bias you have in this health insurance argument, I will still point out the following:

1. Never had an abortion
2. Don't want an abortion
3. Never paid for an abortion
4. Only impregnanted one woman...one time..DD8

I have NO selfish reason for supporting Obama. In fact, my vote was selfless as he will likely cost me more tax dollars in the coming years. I just thought he was better for the country.


So please spare me your lame attempts at trying to "paint me" as some self-interested "minion" of the insurance industry.

Can some changes be had? Yes. Are some changes needed? Yes.

But you think that a government run healthcare system is the "answer." You think that Doctors paying over $100,000 per year for Malpractice Insurance just to protect themselves from greedy attorneys "isn't" part of the problem of the high cost of health care.

Hello Pot. The TOTAL cost of the legal profession on the medical system is less than 1% whereas the health insurance industry's cost is around 30% plus.

Exactly WHO is the greedy?

What do you propose happen to injured persons?

You also fail to realize, medical malpractice insurance in a single-payor health system would be DRAMITICALLY cheaper because you've now removed the cost of future medical care out of the personal injury award calculations.

Finally, I AM NOT A MEDICAL MALPRACTICE ATTORNEY so their greediness or lack thereof has nothing to do with my opinions


What would YOU have to charge just to cover the cost of malpractice insurance before you make one dime to pay staff or yourself?

I no longer really practice law. I'm retired. I wouldn't know what legal malpractice insurance costs

Why do you think that I MUST (as in mandatory) pay for and carry Errors and Omissions Insurance? For the same reason.

Just as SOME Doctors ARE guilty of malpractice, SOME Insurance Agents have pushed products SOLELY to make a buck. I EARN my living in the insurance world by placing my clients needs ahead of my own need to "make a buck."


So please don't even attempt to lecture me on what I do or don't do in the process of providing very much needed protection for individuals.

Why don't you think about "going after" Congress, which HAS stolen the money from Social Security, can't fund Medicare without constantly raising the deductibles and copays AND raising the premium the government charges EVERY YEAR, and which wouldn't lift a finger to pass the legislation introduced by McCain to avoid disaster at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac?

Oh no. You prefer to demonize an industry that SHIFTS the risk of PAYING for services from the individual to the Insurance Company.

But therein lies the crux of the issue. You aren't just shifting the cost and risk of your clients medical services from the client to the insurance company...rather, you are shifting the cost and risk of paying for ALL the medical costs of everyone, insured or not, from society to the insurance company AND THEN PROFITING ON IT. It is a fallacy to claim you are merely covering MY costs when you are tacking on the cost of the uninsured unto my premiums.


By the way, WHY do you have mandated auto insurance for your car even though you are responsible driver and DON'T have accidents or drive drunk and hurt other people?

First...Unlike medical care, I can get by without a car or I can limit my coverage by purchasing a cheaper car. NOBODY wants cheaper medical care WHEN they need it and medical care is NOT comparable to a car. Second...I am merely insuring the cost of MY car (in a no-fault state). My auto insurance company is NOT providing uninsured motorist with replacement cars should they drive one and total it...thus, it is not a part of my premium

Why DO you have Homeowners Insurance on your home, even though you take care of your home to keep it from being destroyed?

Yes I do...but again, my company is not in the business of replacing the uninsured's home and I can limit my expense by buying a cheaper home or going uninsured myself. My need for a house is NOT comparable to my potential need for quality medical care...should I need it. If I needed it...I'd trade my house for a heart anyday.


Why DO you have Health Insurance, even though you are "health as an ox" and don't use it much at all?

Because the thugs in the health insurance industry have monopolized the system such that they are the ONLY way to guarantee adequate medical services should the need arise. They have monopolized the quiessential product...LIFE. If I don't pay them off...I will be denied everything other than emergency care, and, if I have some money I will soon be bankrupted by a system that will charge me exorbinant rates OVER and ABOVE the TRUE COST for such services


Try answering this...if you were really say, my agent, why wouldn't you be fighting for me to pay a premium which really reflected the TRUE cost and risk of the TRUE cost of MY PERSONAL MEDICAL SERVICES instead of promoting and selling policies which entail premiums that, in part, cover the cost of uninsured and underinsured????

Hint: A corporations single purpose is to maximize it's shareholders value and return on investment.

Answer: Health insurance and the "agency" sale of such is immoral. Via the medical cartel, it passes along the cost of medical care for the uninsured and indigent to it's "clients" that it supposedly represents and even charges a percentage on it (profiteering on indigent medical care). If the Heath Insurance industry failed to be complicit in this arrangement, the hospitals would surely HAVE TO refuse to treat EVERYONE. The ensuing outrage would cause government to have to step in and pay for it. Any governement involvement is perceived as BAD for business and shareholders because Government would then likely, eventually and finally KILL the golden goose...the health insurance racket.

In conclusion, health insurance has really become private socialized medicine. My health insurance premiums contain a tax which covers the cost of medical care for the uninsured. This is, in essence, taxation and worse yet, it's taxation without representation. It's immoral and UN-American. Sure a single payor system will have problems but, at least, I'll be voting for the people in charge AND nobody will be left in the cold if and when they actually NEED medical services.

Mr. Wondering

Last edited by MrWondering; 11/07/08 12:47 PM.

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Hello Pot. The TOTAL cost of the legal profession on the medical system is less than 1% whereas the health insurance industry's cost is around 30% plus.

Exactly WHO is the greedy?

What do you propose happen to injured persons?

You also fail to realize, medical malpractice insurance in a single-payor health system would be DRAMITICALLY cheaper because you've now removed the cost of future medical care out of the personal injury award calculations.

Finally, I AM NOT A MEDICAL MALPRACTICE ATTORNEY so their greediness or lack thereof has nothing to do with my opinions



Okay, you like to shout to get your "point" across.

But let's get your questions addressed, hmmmm.

Exactly WHO is the greedy?

You really don't know what Claims Loss ratios are do you?

You really don't know that each and every insurance plan is REGULATED by the State Insurance Commissioners, do you?

You really don't understand that rates are approved and controlled by the government, do you?

Earlier, on another thread, I posted the North Carolina rates for the State provided insurance plan for people who are "high risk," namely, those persons with serious medical conditions that can't qualify for "regular insurance" because the costs of treating their conditions is KNOWN to be very high.

What you need to take note of is that the plan AND the rates are established by the government, not by any insurance company. The State selected the company to administer the plan, but the government set up the plan and the rates for the plan.

But in case you missed it, I will reproduce it here for you.



But just to give you an example of how the Government will "address" this issue and make sure that the people who can't qualify for regular health insurance because of their "unhealthy condition," let me share with you the Premium RATE Structure for GUARANTEED COVERAGE. ONLY those people who ARE "unhealthy" can get this insurance. The "healthy folks" have to stay with their employer or individual plans.

I am only including the rates up to age 64, even though the plan does give rates for up to age 99, because MOST people WILL go on Medicare when they turn 65.


Non-Smoker
AGE Plan A -- $1,000 Plan B -- $2,500 Plan C – $5,000 HDHP
.......Male..Female...Male...Female...Male...Female
0-1--- $432-- $433--- $326--- $327--- $217-- $218--
2-12--$228-- $228--- $172--- $173--- $115--- $115--
13-17-$254-- $252--- $192--- $191--- $128--- $127
18-----$270-- $271--- $196--- $245--- $136--- $135
19-----$271-- $286--- $198--- $257--- $136--- $154
20-----$276-- $299--- $204--- $268--- $137--- $168
21-----$277-- $313--- $208--- $280--- $140--- $184
22-----$278-- $366--- $209--- $321--- $141--- $195
23-----$281-- $372--- $211--- $325--- $143--- $202
24-----$283-- $377--- $213--- $329--- $145--- $208
25-----$286-- $384--- $216--- $339--- $147--- $214
26-----$289-- $391--- $218--- $344--- $150--- $220
27-----$292-- $399--- $220--- $350--- $152--- $225
28-----$296-- $424--- $223--- $369--- $155--- $230
29-----$304-- $438--- $230--- $379--- $159--- $235
30-----$311-- $457--- $235--- $384--- $162--- $241
31-----$320-- $465--- $241--- $390--- $167--- $246
32-----$329-- $476--- $247--- $399--- $172--- $252
33-----$337-- $485--- $253--- $405--- $177--- $258
34-----$347-- $493--- $260--- $411--- $183--- $264
35-----$358-- $502--- $268--- $399--- $188--- $270
36-----$369-- $511---- $275--- $406--- $194--- $276
37-----$381-- $525--- $283--- $417--- $201--- $282
38-----$394-- $540--- $294--- $428--- $210--- $291
39-----$408-- $553--- $306--- $438--- $220--- $300
40-----$425-- $566--- $318--- $434--- $230--- $308
41-----$439-- $579--- $330--- $444--- $239--- $317
42-----$454-- $600--- $343--- $459--- $240--- $326
43-----$475-- $618--- $356--- $473--- $253--- $335
44-----$496-- $636--- $371--- $487--- $265--- $344
45-----$523-- $653--- $385--- $497--- $280--- $356
46-----$548-- $672--- $399--- $511--- $295--- $368
47-----$574-- $681--- $417--- $518--- $310--- $381
48-----$606-- $704--- $440--- $535--- $327--- $393
49-----$637-- $725--- $464--- $550--- $344--- $405
50-----$676-- $755--- $492--- $569--- $361--- $417
51-----$716-- $786---- $520--- $589--- $378--- $426
52-----$757-- $793--- $549--- $592--- $396--- $436
53-----$800-- $830--- $580--- $620--- $416--- $448
54-----$845-- $866--- $612--- $648--- $437--- $460
55-----$886-- $902--- $641--- $673--- $456--- $473
56-----$924-- $931--- $669--- $697--- $476--- $486
57-----$967-- $949--- $700--- $710--- $499--- $501
58-----$1,022 $992--- $740--- $743--- $528--- $517
59-----$1,078 $1,036- $781--- $777--- $559--- $534
60-----$1,139 $1,084- $826--- $811--- $589--- $550
61-----$1,198 $1,129- $869--- $837--- $621--- $568
62-----$1,258 $1,119- $912--- $846--- $654--- $586
63-----$1,297 $1,171- $940--- $878--- $691--- $615
64-----$1,340 $1,225- $970--- $918--- $731--- $645

Smoker
AGE Plan A -- $1,000 Plan B -- $2,500 Plan C – $5,000 HDHP
Male Female Male Female Male Female
0-1 $570 $572 $431 $432 $287 $288
2-12 $301 $302 $227 $228 $151 $152
13-17 $335 $333 $253 $252 $169 $168
18 $357 $358 $259 $323 $179 $178
19 $357 $378 $262 $339 $180 $203
20 $364 $395 $270 $354 $181 $221
21 $365 $413 $274 $369 $185 $243
22 $367 $484 $276 $424 $186 $258
23 $370 $490 $279 $429 $189 $266
24 $374 $497 $282 $435 $192 $274
25 $378 $507 $285 $447 $194 $282
26 $382 $516 $288 $454 $197 $290
27 $385 $526 $291 $462 $201 $297
28 $390 $560 $295 $487 $204 $304
29 $401 $579 $303 $500 $210 $311
30 $411 $603 $311 $507 $214 $318
31 $422 $614 $318 $515 $220 $325
32 $434 $628 $326 $526 $227 $332
33 $445 $640 $334 $535 $234 $340
34 $458 $651 $343 $543 $241 $348
35 $473 $662 $353 $527 $248 $356
36 $488 $674 $363 $536 $256 $364
37 $503 $693 $374 $550 $265 $372
38 $520 $713 $388 $565 $278 $384
39 $539 $730 $404 $578 $291 $395
40 $561 $747 $420 $573 $303 $407
41 $580 $764 $436 $586 $316 $419
42 $599 $792 $453 $607 $317 $431
43 $627 $816 $471 $625 $333 $443
44 $655 $839 $489 $642 $350 $454
45 $690 $862 $508 $656 $370 $470
46 $724 $888 $527 $675 $389 $486
47 $758 $899 $551 $684 $409 $503
48 $800 $929 $581 $706 $431 $519
49 $841 $957 $612 $727 $454 $535
50 $893 $997 $649 $751 $476 $551
51 $945 $1,037 $686 $778 $498 $563
52 $999 $1,047 $725 $781 $522 $575
53 $1,057 $1,095 $766 $818 $549 $591
54 $1,115 $1,144 $808 $856 $576 $607
55 $1,169 $1,191 $847 $888 $602 $624
56 $1,219 $1,229 $883 $920 $628 $641
57 $1,277 $1,252 $924 $937 $659 $661
58 $1,349 $1,309 $977 $981 $697 $683
59 $1,424 $1,367 $1,031 $1,026 $737 $705
60 $1,504 $1,430 $1,090 $1,070 $778 $727
61 $1,582 $1,491 $1,147 $1,116 $820 $750
62 $1,661 $1,477 $1,204 $1,105 $863 $773
63 $1,713 $1,546 $1,241 $1,158 $913 $812
64 $1,768 $1,617 $1,281 $1,212 $964 $851


Now these rates are PER PERSON PER MONTH. (Sorry, I didn't want to take the time to space out the Smoker rates so they would be easier to read on the UBB format.)

Obviously, just as I do every day, it would make "sense" to have healthy family members on their own "lower cost" individual health plan and to only have the "unhealthy" person on such a "guaranteed coverage" plan such as this.

Regardless of your opinion, however, I want you to SEE that this IS a Government run, Government sanctioned plan and that the RATES are not "cheap." Even the government recognizes that the plan will not work if it is NOT funded, and they WILL make you pay for it. And if not YOU, as Obama would like, then EVERYONE WILL PAY. Do you REALLY believe that you won't pay REALLY HIGH "premiums," errrr, Taxes, in order to support Nationalized Healthcare?


Now, Mr. Wondering, the rates are "lower" for non-smokers and "higher" for smokers because of the known risk of smoking on health, and the attendant high costs of treating those problems.

IF the government was really interested in "lowering the cost of healthcare," why don't you think that they would simply BAN smoking? Oh, I forgot, they get a LOT of TAX money from the tobacco tax to help pay for "other things" the government wants to do.

But regardless, the rates for the non-smokers are NOT "cheap" by any means for anyone.
THAT is the tacit admission of government that providing healthcare to everyone is NOT cheap, even if the government is providing it.

Why do you think that is?


Now, IF you do want a government run, government funded, government controlled healthcare system, we already have one that can be looked at as a "current model."

It's called MEDICAID. Anyone on Medicaid receives virtually any medical care they need and they don't have to pay for it, not for the coverage and not for the charges.

GUESS what is close to "bankrupting" a lot of States? The Medicaid entitlement system.

But then it is for people who do not have the income or assets to pay for it on their own.

You would simply like to see that same sort of system applied to everyone.

There IS no "free lunch."

What IS the true cost to provide health care? Why don't you ask the Doctors and Hospitals who KNOW their cost of service and who generate the BILLS that "someone" has to pay.

OR is it that you simply want Doctors and Hospitals to ONLY be paid what the government thinks their services are "worth?" If so, WHY would any of them WANT to be in business, the "business" of helping anyone suffering from a "health problem?"

I'm sure you are familiar with the term "pro bono." In the medical world it is called "charity care" where the services are provide at no cost to the patient. In the "not for profit" world of Hospitals, they MUST maintain certain levels of "free care." In order to provide pro bono legal work or free health care, and still be able to pay salaries and the like, WHO winds up paying for it? NO lawyer is going to stay in business very long if he does not CHARGE someone, somewhere, to stay in business. The same is true for Doctors and Hospitals.


What do you propose happen to injured persons?

Well, let's see. The government already MANDATES that no one can be denied medical care, regardless of ability to pay for it, for all emergencies. That's one of the reasons Emergency Rooms have become "Doctor's Offices" and "Urgent Care Centers."



You also fail to realize, medical malpractice insurance in a single-payor health system would be DRAMITICALLY cheaper because you've now removed the cost of future medical care out of the personal injury award calculations.

You think so? Why? On the basis of "you can't sue the government?"

Just wait for the first case that is denied, or service NOT extended, because it "costs too much" and there is "too little reimbursement" from the government, and you will have set up a similar scenario to a lot of HMO's.

Remember that pesky little thing called the "Constitution." Something about "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness?"



Finally, I AM NOT A MEDICAL MALPRACTICE ATTORNEY so their greediness or lack thereof has nothing to do with my opinions

Ya, we'll just give the "John Edwards'" of the lawyering world a "free pass."



Quote
What would YOU have to charge just to cover the cost of malpractice insurance before you make one dime to pay staff or yourself?

I no longer really practice law. I'm retired. I wouldn't know what legal malpractice insurance costs

Ahhhh….the bliss of ignorance of the topic. "Not my problem, mon, I don't practice and what other attorneys do is their business, they can "go for all the gusto" and get whatever they can get….and it's A LOT!



Quote
But therein lies the crux of the issue. You aren't just shifting the cost and risk of your clients medical services from the client to the insurance company...rather, you are shifting the cost and risk of paying for ALL the medical costs of everyone, insured or not, from society to the insurance company AND THEN PROFITING ON IT. It is a fallacy to claim you are merely covering MY costs when you are tacking on the cost of the uninsured unto my premiums.

Oh come on, Mr. W., you don't really BELIEVE this do you?

WHY, in your opinion is "medical care" a "RIGHT?"

WHO says that any Doctor or Hospital "MUST" exist to take care of what "ails" you?

WHO says that the government is "responsible" for seeing to it that YOU (any individual) gets healthcare and HOW do they "set up the infrastructure" and "staff it" so that anyone can PROVIDE healthcare services?

Personal responsibility, Mr. W., it what is the "crux of the issue."

The COST associated with healthcare treatment is REAL, and it is HIGH, unless you just want to put a bandaid on that knife wound?

CAT scans, Radiation treatment, Surgery, etc., etc., ARE expensive to obtain, to regulate, to USE to try to help someone.

Of course we "could" just let the sick die. THAT would save a lot of healthcare dollars and we might not even need a "healthcare system." Just increase the number of morticians and we'd be "good to go."

What Insurance Companies DO is take a premium amount, high or low, and GIVE you MILLIONS of dollars of coverage, usually from "DAY ONE."

Now, if you prefer, you could offer the Doctor or the Hospital a chicken or two, maybe whole cow if the procedure is more "involved." Maybe they will take that, maybe they won't. Or maybe you could just "sign over" your house to cover the cost of their services.

Now, if you "think" that the government can "control healthcare" by limiting what THEY are willing to pay the providers to take care of you, then WHY doesn't the government provide Long Term Care Insurance for people?

Why do you think that the "allowable amount" for Medicare comes with a $1000 plus deductible every 60 days during the year and why does Medicare have both a deductible and 20% of the ENTIRE bill that is the responsibility of the Medicare recipient? Why do those deductibles GO UP every year? Why does the Part B premium that each Medicare Recipient MUST pay (deducted from their meager Social Security check) keep going up EVERY YEAR?

Why do you think that the "allowable amount" that Medicare actually PAYS the providers (as part of the Prospective Payment System and the attendant DRG's (Diagnosis Related Group) is 1 )too low to cover the provider's costs of providing the service and 2) mandated that they CANNOT bill the patient for any costs OVER that "allowable" amount?

Ahhhh…but "we'll all pay more taxes to cover the costs." Right. WHO will pay more taxes? The 1% of the population who "has too much money?" The Middle Class who is already taxed too much? The people who pay NO taxes (about 40% of the people)?

What do you think the "rich folks" are likely to do with their investments if they KNOW that they will be paying higher taxes next year? Do you think they just might take their money out of the Stock Market and park it somewhere else, say Tax Free Municipal Bonds?


Try answering this...if you were really say, my agent, why wouldn't you be fighting for me to pay a premium which really reflected the TRUE cost and risk of the TRUE cost of MY PERSONAL MEDICAL SERVICES instead of promoting and selling policies which entail premiums that, in part, cover the cost of uninsured and underinsured????

Hint: A corporations single purpose is to maximize it's shareholders value and return on investment.

Answer: Health insurance and the "agency" sale of such is immoral. Via the medical cartel, it passes along the cost of medical care for the uninsured and indigent to it's "clients" that it supposedly represents and even charges a percentage on it (profiteering on indigent medical care). If the Heath Insurance industry failed to be complicit in this arrangement, the hospitals would surely HAVE TO refuse to treat EVERYONE. The ensuing outrage would cause government to have to step in and pay for it. Any governement involvement is perceived as BAD for business and shareholders because Government would then likely, eventually and finally KILL the golden goose...the health insurance racket.

In conclusion, health insurance has really become private socialized medicine. My health insurance premiums contain a tax which covers the cost of medical care for the uninsured. This is, in essence, taxation and worse yet, it's taxation without representation. It's immoral and UN-American. Sure a single payor system will have problems but, at least, I'll be voting for the people in charge AND nobody will be left in the cold if and when they actually NEED medical services.

Mr. Wondering
[/quote]

Oh ya, the insurance companies are "immoral."

In conclusion, health insurance has really become private socialized medicine. My health insurance premiums contain a tax which covers the cost of medical care for the uninsured. This is, in essence, taxation and worse yet, it's taxation without representation. It's immoral and UN-American. Sure a single payor system will have problems but, at least, I'll be voting for the people in charge AND nobody will be left in the cold if and when they actually NEED medical services.

Have you looked at the British system? Ever wonder WHY a "private healthcare system" has grown up there, for those who can afford it? Ever wonder why people from Canada come to the USA for healthcare when they don't want to wait 6 to 12 months to get served in the Canadian system?

No, it's not "taxation without representation." NO ONE "forces" you have health insurance. It, unlike auto insurance, is NOT mandated. You can choose to have it or not have it.

Do you REALLY believe that the government can run a healthcare system? They have been doing that already in the VA system. My wife used to work in VA. Do you have any idea of what the "Nurse to Patient ratios" are in that system versus in a Hospital?

Do you think the VA system is a "well run" system?

Mr. W., you really do need to rethink this "issue."





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Originally Posted by nia17
Interesting non-biased descriptions of your true feelings Nia.

As if those descriptions don't apply at least as well if not better to a large number of Democrats too.

ahhh...the politics of personal destruction is alive and well within the ranks of the Democrat Party. Don't discuss issues, just toss out the disrespectful judgments and forget about the principles that have made this country so great where a Barack Obama COULD run and get elected.

Sound over substance. Fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time.
*******************************************

You just never stop, do you?
OFCOURSE, the description applies to democrats too....THAT was never the point....but, THEY won the election this time.....the article explained some good reasons why (no, it wasn't all about issues that are important to YOU) and you just keep continuing to accuse anybody who isn't on 100% on YOUR side (whatever that is) as being liberal and insincere and not worthy of discussion.... Refuse to discuss anything else.
You change every thread into a fight against the OTHER side.
it is exhausting.

**EDIT**

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What is really sad...is the rates you quote above as a supposed scary example of how high the rates are for the riskiest group are, in fact, equal to what my family IS already paying for Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan High Deductible HSA insurance with a $3,000 deductible.

We get one office visit per year. Office visits thereafter are completly out of pocket and not even taken down to the "negotiated rates" that BCBS would otherwise pay (and what they pay for that first free visit).

Up to $3,000 all prescriptions are out of pocket.

We can't get a cheaper PPO because of a minor "pre-existing condition" which would automatically "rate us" out of such plan. We certainly aren't "high risk" but we are paying as though we are.

In a nutshell...YES...I trust the government MORE than I trust the medical insurance industry with actually providing me and my family with medical care, if and when we need it.

Enough about me. Taking the this argument to the individual level takes the focus away from the broader issue.

Medical Insurance, as it exists today, is un-Christian. Health Insurance increases the cost of medical care, while taking down the payment per patient for medical providers. In essence, it skims directly from the top. Like a loan shark, when you put usury into the health care industry by taking a usury percentage, in money, from the use of the money, you corrupt it. Usury is an abomination. See Ezekiel 18:13. A Medical care industry that pays usury, er, interest, to it's nonperforming "investors" off the backs of the suffering is abominable.

It may take good Christian such as yourself...within the industry itself to come forth realizing and exposing this abomination before real change occurs. Others have...I am calling on you my brother to cast aside your "self-interest" and to start looking at this issue as Jesus would.

Health Care IS a right and a system with EVERYBODY in (not just the risky) will be cheaper and provide better health care, on average, for everyone.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - You had a mistatement in your post. You said 40% of the population doesn't pay taxes. I am not going to research it to get the exact number but that is not true. Perhaps 40% don't file income taxe returns...but MANY of them still pay Withholdings, Social Security, Medicare Taxes which are taken directly from their paychecks. Further, everyone pays Sales, Gasoline, Liquor, Cigarette, and/or Property Taxes and the like. You'd be hard pressed to find ONE American that completely 100% avoids paying ANY taxes whatsoever.





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"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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FH, I will only suggest that you not try and reason with any person that can ****EDIT****. It is a waste of time.


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Please keep the posts respectful and avoid the gratuitous attacks!


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