Tully,

Are you ok? Maybe it's just me but I really sense you are running out of gas. I really hope that's not the case. Hang in there and stay strong! Your Plan B hasn't started off the way it should because your mediator has allowed the drama to continue for you. Please take the advice of others here and do not get involved in the drama! You should be 100% focused on yourself and your children right now. Get yourself healthy both physically and mentally. There are many challenges ahead for you regardless of whether you end up in recovery or Plan D so now is the time for you to charge up the batteries and get yourself into a good healthy place. Your mediator should only talk to you about logistical stuff regarding the children or your WH's agreement to your conditions to return to the M. She should not be giving you a play by play of the way he is acting/behaving. She should not convey a single word that he has said to you unless it has to do with the children or accepting the conditions to return to the M. The mediator is keeping you engaged in the drama and continuing to sap your energy and withdrawing further from your LB. Spend good quality time focusing on you and your children. You can do this! You are a strong lady! We continue to pull for you.

Mindshare

Once again, "hear hear" to the advice you're getting.

Btw tully, did you get swabbed?

You won't be happy in Plan B, because your marriage is still in crisis, but you should be feeling some relief from constantly Plan Aing while scrutinising his every expression, trying to work out if he had contact that day, trying to work out whether he looks lovingly at you or is indifferent...guessing, deducing and worrying non-stop about what he is doing. I did that for so long and it is exhausting and makes you ill. This time should be a relief from that.

Have you been told formally that he will be visiting the children this weekend? That certainly is one of his proposals that your mediator should be putting to you. You need to know when he flies in, so that there is no chance that he will surprise you at the house. What does he plan to do with the children? If he's staying in a hotel they might enjoy visiting him there, even though the space would be small. My kids always loved hotel rooms for their little bottles of shower gel and tiny sewing kits, TV linked to cable stations we don't have at home, notepads, little packs of biscuits and so on. Your H should not expect spend the day at your father's house the way he used to, but neither do you want your kids spending a rainy Irish winter Saturday shivering in the park with relief at McDonalds. You mustn't sort this out for him, but it's one of the things that the mediator should be dealing with.

How are you today?

Hi Sugar and mindshare, it's nice to hear from you. It's so great to 'talk' to people who understand what I'm going through and who can advise me. I feel that I can't complain as all is fine, at least on the surface. Everyone is kind and loving, they are helping as much as they can and the girls are doing fine. But I can't help but feel a little bit sad and fatalistic. I have been fighting like a tiger for my M for the past 10 weeks (in fact for the past year, knowing that there was something badly wrong but unable to find out what it was) and now just when I pull back from the fight he couldn't be bothered to make an effort. He isn't doing anything to win me back and seems to accept the end with minimal protest.

Could it be that he doesn't and didn't value what we had? Was the impression I had that we had a wonderful relationship for so long a false one? Anyway, I don't want to be full of self-pity because I'm sure that I'll be OK no matter what happens but it does seem such a shame that I might have been deluded about an enormous chunk of my life. I'm starting to feel pessimistic about Plan B working and I have a whole pile of feelings about that and I'm not sure which ones have the upperhand.

I sent an email to the mediator today and explained that I'd rather not have any details or info about the progress WH could be making or not making, that all I wanted to be told about was factual info and she understood. I know that they will be talking tomorrow evening and I presume that he will tell her about the plans for the weekend. My brother wants to tackle him and ask for an explanation and I'm not sure if I should allow him to do that. What do you think my family's attitude to him should be in general?

((((tully))))

I know this is so hard and you find yourself questioning your entire life with H. We all have been there. And your H doesn't value your M right now tully. I know that sounds harsh but he doesn't and hasn't since he decided to engage in adultery. That doesn't mean he's never valued you or your M or can't again. There is hope but unfortunately it really is up to him to be the decent and honorable man you and your children deserve.

As for your brother or other family members...I'm not sure if MB addresses this specifically but I don't think you should shield your WH from them if they want to confront him. WH will have to face them at some point regardless of what happens and at least for me, I'd rather them bash him over the head now rather than later. Could it drive WH away? I suppose but he's not doing much anyway so not sure it will matter one way or another. Could it help knock WH out of the fog or smash some seeds of thought into his head? Some 2x4s can actually help if strategically executed.

Tully,

I'm sorry you are feeling down. I sensed that in your previous post. Plan B can take some time. Please try not to analyze what WH is doing or in this case not doing. I know you wanted him to immediately follow you to Ireland and drop to his knees and beg for forgiveness, etc. He is not capable of any of that right now. He is a wayward and he is in the fog! BR was so right when she said that it doesn't mean your WH never loved you or won't again. I was exactly where you are at one point, questioning everything that I ever had. It's a perfectly natural feeling to have. Keep coming here and sharing these feelings and know that you are not alone. Many of us have been there. It's a very tough thing to go through and I really wish that nobody else would ever have to go where I've been. But, unfortunately it seems like every day we have a new BS come to this site and start posting. It's heartbreaking to see how many innocent people/families are affected by adultery. Just remember, your situation is not unique. You are doing all of the right things and following the 'narrow path' to try to save your M. You are in for a long and difficult road but as I keep telling you...you are strong and you can do this!! Keep leaning on us!! We are here for you. Best wishes!

Mindshare

Regarding your WH, he's pretty deep in fog. There's a reason Dr. Harley recommends waiting 2 years in Plan B before giving up. I have even seen several WS's take longer than 2 years, and then return to the M for a successful recovery. It just depends.

Trust the process, and trust that God is using every opportunity to work on WH's heart.

Regarding your family. While not asking them to say anything, as long as they're on your side (and boy are they ever!), don't stop them from saying whatever they want to tell you. It's not going to be a magic pill that instantly snaps him back to normal, but it will give him a glimpse of how "normal" people view his behavior.

tully,

I don't think that this is what's happening at all. He won't get on the first plane to Ireland and drop to his knees on your doorstep because you told him that you will not have anything to do with him until he sorts out the mess that your marriage is in. He has to prove NC and show that this is in place forever.

You know that your H is stubborn and will not give in to "manipulation", to the point of hurting himself, but there are other factors at play.

I've just finished reading Dr Laura Schlesinger's The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands. While there is much in that book that conflicts with what Dr Harley says, a particularly useful part of it is when men describe themselves in their own words. They keep explaining that they need simple, direct instructions and that they are hopeless at reading between the lines the way women can and always do. If you say "leave me alone" they will. If you say "nothing" when they ask "what's wrong?" they take you at your word. They get baffled when you then go upstairs and cry, or start slamming dishes around, because they did not realise that when you said "nothing'' and "leave me alone" you really meant "I feel horrible and if really loved me, you would know that, know why and know how to make me feel better!"

Right now, he is being stubborn and refusing to be manipulated, but he is also not volunteering to have the door closed in his face, the phone put down or an email bounced back. He knows these things will happen and he is not going to sign up for humiliation. It would be nice, I suppose, if he stopped being sensible and logical and threw himself at your feet, but I think it will be even better when he sorts things out in his quiet, masculine way and goes to you in a couple of months' time and lays the basis for a rebuilt marriage at your feet.

In your Plan B letter, you gave your H very clear instructions not to contact you directly until he can prove that the affair is over. At the moment he does not how how to do this, because even if OW moves (to Ireland! I cannot believe the irony!), her home is still in your area, her contract is short term and their paths could cross for years to come due to their academic careers. He doesn't know how to begin sorting the mess out.

Here's a thought about what he should do.

He tells OW that he is not giving up on his marriage, even though you have left. She does not give up hope, even though his refusal to rush to her is a giant slap in the face. She goes to Ireland for 9 months but intends to wait for him to give up hope with you and go to her.

He, meanwhile, wakes up to the fact that your future marriage requires a career change. He cannot offer you security from the affair while working in his existing sphere, with conferences and other things that bring the chance of contact from this mad ho who lacks self-respect.

He applies for work with non-academic research labs where conferences and publications will not be required, or he applies to train as a schoolteacher, something he can start in September 2009. He has nine months to change career before OW comes back to the area.

If he wants you, he will do that, and I believe that he wants you. He might not realise, because his brains are scrambled egg at the moment, that a career change - with loss of pay if necessary - will have to take place, but he will realise it one day when he starts thinking seriously about what he must do to recover his marriage before he loses you.

My H was lucky; he was able to stay with the same employer and merely shift roles to a job that involved no travel. The organisation he works for is huge, and it was a matter of going online, looking at the internal vacancies and picking one. He does not like what he does now at all, and he enjoyed the affair job, but he chose to change jobs when I packed my bags after 16 months of false recovery. It was his choice, and he never complains about having made it. Your H cannot see what he can do to stay away from mad ho at the moment, but he will.

The job change should be sorted out by him before he approaches the mediator. He must show that, even if you do not want him back, he does not want OW and is not keeping her in the wings. When he changes job regardless of what she is doing, you'll know that he means to have NC for life. With a new job or training in place he will approach the mediator with the offer for you to sell your house and move, even if it's just to a different Paris district, so that you are away from OW's parents.

He'll of course tell you anything you want to know about the demise of the affair and will fall over himself to offer transparency.

He doesn't get it yet, but he will get it, tully, and when he does, you'll have all the demonstration of love and commitment that you could ever need. He's a man that does not break down (you told us about what he was like when you lost your daughter), does not beg and will not be told what to do. Leave him alone and he will do it himself.

Have a better day today.

Thanks all, I still can't believe that all this is happening to me. For so long, I felt like the luckiest woman to have the M I had. We had a few difficult years but I felt that we were coming out the other side. And now I keep thinking of episodes over the past year when he was so horrible to me and I find it hard to understand. Like one evening after the children were in bed I made tea and asked him to sit down and talk about our M as I felt that we were in real trouble. He told me I was paranoid and imagining things and left ten minutes later to go to the cinema with a few friends. He didn't get back until 2am, I was so worried. He told me since that the two of them went to the cinema together and then he went to her place. How could he do that to me?

I keep telling myself that he was not himself when he did these kind of things but sometimes I find myself hard to believe.

Neak, you mention Dr Harley's suggestion of 2 years before giving up on Plan B. Do you think that has something to do with the 2 years he talks about for an A to end naturally?

Sugar, I hope you are right but I suspect he is a very long way from considering a career change. do you really think that any contact, even accidental, in years to come could be so fatal to our M? I hate the thought of being so vulnerable. Got to run as this is dial-up and the phone is needed.

Well, I'm really just going by what Dr Harley says. I've nothing else on which to base that particular piece of advice. His advice comes from his 35 years of clinical experience, and he says that, men especially, even when they really love their wives and are deeply happy, can start up the affair years later. Men who have done this tell him that they rekindled the affair because they really miss OW. Dr Harley says that men especially must be prevented from contact with OW. An unfaithful wife is not such a problem, if she falls back in love with her H.

That statement is here on the web site in the "coping with infidelity" article "how should affairs end?" and in SAA or HNHN. He tells you (the wife reading the article) that you might ask why, then, should you attempt recovery at all. Why should you stay married to a man that has this deep feeling for someone else? His answer is because you love your H and you want to have a good marriage. Men seem to be able to love more than one woman, and we just have to accept that fact. It might not seem fair to you to stay with someone who has deep feelings for someone else, but it won't feel like that is what you are doing if you both follow his narrow path to recovery. Contact, however, can undo the wonderful marriage that you create after the affair.

A bit depressing, isn't it?

Perhaps a complete career change isn't necessary. You asked me once whether he would really have to hate her to end the affair. I don't know the answer for your particular H, but it seems logical that if he comes to hate her for being whiny and clingy, making you leave (because she won't go away), and for being a weak, unprincipled ho compared to your dignified integrity, faithfulness and morality, he won't want her. Additionally, her seeing him as weak etc. and realising that, now you've given him his freedom he STILL won't go with her, he does not love her enough, or at all, and has used her (true or not - that's what she'll think), might make her hate him and feel a fool. She might eventually go off in a huff, gathering her shredded self-respect to cover her nakedness.

Accidental contact won't be a problem if either or both of them experience these changes in their feelings. I think those changes in feelings will happen anyway (based only on the fact that it happened in my case, with a clingy OW) but it's a risky strategy to have the strong possibility of contact.

I don't know how strong the possibility of "career contact" really is, if she does not work for his institution; perhaps I'm overstating it. However, your living near her parents will be stressful for you and risky.

I was trying to say that there are solutions, and he will come to one. I don't want you to worry about those solutions. Plan B.

I still can't believe my H did the things he did either tully. Filling in the blanks when you look back now add another layer of pain to the betrayal. It's difficult to comprehend that mentality.

How long are you prepared to stay in Ireland?

I don't know if most waywards have enough brain power to get this without help. I helped my FWH along with some DJ...yeah, yeah I know against MB concepts but I did it. H felt beyond stupid once he objectively looked at his A and saw it for the joke it. But he wasn't engrossed in his A like tully's H is. It can still be done w/o the DJs by planting the seeds in a WS head and can even be done by a family member or friend.

Sample questions to WH:

1- Would you want your daughter to grow up and go aroung [censored] married men and think she was a swell gal?

2- Would you want your daughter to marry a man who cheats and lies to her? Is that what you dream of for her?

3- Would you be proud of your father if he cheated on your mom and think your mom should just suck it up and cry in silence?

Would it be considered a DJ if others bashed WH upside the head vs tully? While this helped me every one has different personalities and the particulars vary. Tully's H seems to be in this for the battle of the wills so not sure if it would produce counter productive results. I don't know....I get frustrated seeing so many BSs hurt by their idiot WSs. My 2 cents anyway but it might be worth zilch.

HoGirl is willing to take scraps like a dog so I don't think there's much hope for her. I personally would have torpedoed her career a long time ago, exposed to her family and stuck a sign in her yard showing men where to find the village slut.

Now that's what I like to hear! I suggested a few pages back that BWs on this board might use the anger that some of the most successful BHs here have displayed. Their instinctive responses have included throwing the wives' clothes out into the front yard and telling them to drop OM RIGHT NOW or get the...out of the house, and they seem to have had a fast commitment to recovery and no visible withdrawal symptoms from their wives. You said it so much better, BR!

I have long thought that if my H's ho ever intervenes in my marriage again I will consider it to be a personal attack on my children and I will go to her house and wait for her with a baseball bat. However, planting BR's sign in her yard would be SO much cooler, and I could not be found guilty of assault or sued for libel!

tully, you have brothers as well as four sisters? With them protecting you, your H should be afraid...very afraid.

HA!!! That's awesome!! Love the sign idea.

Yes, Sugar it is depressing. I imagine I would find it very difficult to be in this M if he still has strong feelings for her. I asked the question about hating the OW (although I'd settle for despising her !) because I feel that it is a real barrier between us. He has always seen her as an angel where I am the wife who has become irritating and unbearable (he said once, with an air of surprise almost, that it was strange that the things that he most loved about me once became the things that irritated him the most)

He is prepared to deform facts in order to protect his image of her. For example once, after an ineffectual NC email sent by him under protest, she sent him an email in the morning to say that she would be in X lab and Y lab at certain times just in case he needed to avoid her. Then that same afternoon she called into his office with t-shirts he had left in her flat. This info leaked out to me and even when I confronted him with the illogic of her actions he refuses to see that she is a manipulative liar. He claimed that she meant what she said in the email when she said it but then decided afterwards to deliver the t-shirts on a whim. I tried to say that she had to have taken the t-shirts from her flat that morning BEFORE she sent the email but he refuses to see what I am saying and to see anything bad in her. She also lied telling people that he is the one who pursued her and that she was the innocent party. She is still lying to WH in saying that she is leaving to go to Ireland next week when I know very well that she sent an email to the secretary of the dept saying that she won't be arriving before Dec but of course he won't see any bad in her.

He has maintained that she is a highly intelligent scientist and a brilliant student but both of the colleagues I have spoken to (the woman after the seminar and the man just before I left for Ireland) said independantly that she was very immature and also that they had little respect for her as a scientist. They both said that they believe that her excellent Phd and publication of her results are due to WH's input so this gives her an added reason to cling on to him as she will be at sea professionally without him.

Sorry for rambling on there but all that was just to say that I have had a feeling for a long time that part of the progress necessary for him to commit to our M is for him to see her for what she is. His illogical defense of her is part of the fog he is in. In order to see me clearly he also needs to see her clearly as she has been standing between us for a long time.

As long as it takes, BR! It's now been over a week since I had contact with WH and in 20 years this has never happened before. I got a call from our mediator this evening saying that WH asked if he could call or email me directly (she told me that he really pushed hard to make her ask the question even though she was sure of the answer) so I told her to say that I said 'no' and to give him no more info than that. I can stay here for as long as I like. My dad is delighted to have us here and the school is extremely supportive and they have already put into place extra tuition to help the girls catch up with their English.

As for killing OW's career, I am coming around to your way of thinking (I said that I'm a slow learner!) I intend to call Big Boss and tell him what's going on. I value kindness very highly as an attribute even though it is an underrated, almost old-fashioned quality (along with politeness) so I have resisted going down this route. But what has been the final straw is when WH told me that she rang him to ask did I not realise how stupid I was to demand NC between them and 'he could only agree'. Now I am flaming mad and ready to do what ever it takes to make her realise that she is not up against someone 'stupid'. Of course WH will be mad but I don't care anymore.

Sugar, I have 4 brothers as well, 3 living nearby, although one of them who lives with us is mentally handicapped and the most inoffensive, gentlest person you could meet. (He is a hit with the girls) The other 2 are not inoffensive however and are several centimetres taller than WH. I've told them to say what they like to WH but just to remember that my intention is to have him back.

Hi Tully!

You are doing so well!! Keep staying as dark as possible!! Sounds like your mediator is coming around also which is very important. You need to stay away from WH's drama! Let him sit and stew. He's done it to himself.

It also sounds like you are moving into an angry stage. You are thinking more and more about OW and how to 'extract a pound of flesh'. Once again, this is completely normal!! I still have those thoughts on almost a daily basis! I've never felt so much anger and hate as I do towards OM. He's the scum of the earth. Not to let WW off the hook, but I'm stuck with her for quite some time as she is the mother of my children. I try not to LB on her because ultimately that hurts my children. OM on the other hand, I am constantly plotting in my head about how to blow up his world. Many BS's go through this. There has been alot discussion around here about how to handle the anger/rage and why it seems that many of us direct most of it at OP. There are others who seem to give OP a free pass and blame it all on WS since the WS had vows to them and OP did not. I don't buy into this line of thinking. Below, is a fairly recent thread where some discussion was done on this topic that may be of interest to you. Try to listen to music when you feel the anger taking over. Works great for me!

Keep on keeping on Tully! You are strong!!

Mindshare


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2154118&fpart=1

I agree, it sounds like the mediator is coming around. No more opinions of what you should or shouldn't do. However

All she should say is "WH has requested that he be able to call or email you directly." You don't need to know that she resisted coming to you with that question or that he really pushed hard.

Come to think of it. you might instruct your mediator to only pass along the bare-bones communications from your WH if it's related to the girls, finances, or dumping OW, agreeing to NC, and working on the M. You might ask her to filter the rest, as you've made it clear to WH that you want NO CONTACT from him unless he's willing to reconcile.

"Can I speak to Tully directly?" does not equate to "I've dumped OW, I'm ready to agree to NC, and I want to work on our M."

I think it's great that you're surrounded by so many loving family members, even if some of them ARE offensive brothers

At long last. We realised that OW was not up against someone stupid when you first came here! I was beginning to wonder when you would see that!

I love stupid comments from the foggy OPs. Too stupid to realize they set themselves up to get the smirk smacked off their faces.

OW -
tully - :twobyfour:
OW - :MrEEk:
tully -

If OW career is pretty much mediocre w/o H she might slink away at some point. H of course will be mad but she may also become less attractive in his eyes it's she's not viewed as smart...assuming that's important to him. I dunno. A lot depends on what makes WH tick and if you can live with the possible fallout.