Why not? He probably already does hate her. It's important he acknowledge his feelings. And you yours. He just needs to be taught not to act out on them. But he has a right to own what he feels. Just like you and I.

Went through this with DS when he was 10, and WW left for six months (trying to get OM to leave his wife for her.) It is very hard.

Yes, it is exWH's news to tell. However, your DS could also view your failure to tell him as a betrayal as well since you ar privy to this information. You are his mom and know best.

Have you explained to him that the divorce was a result of adultery? There are threads upon threads on this forum about this and the experts agree that children do best when they know the truth. Children instinctively blame themselves for divorce and it's not enough to simply tell them it wasn't their fault. They need the truth. They need the opportunity to be angry with the adulterous parent. And they need to know that it's ok to be angry with someone and still love them. Armed with the truth, they can heal from the damage and grow. Shielded from it and their scars will never heal and will affect them the rest of their lives. Where's MelodyLane - she has a pile of links to great artlicles on this.

I told my kids the truth. That OW is the reason we're divorced. We also talked about how God views their "relationship."

I don't regret it at all. It hurt, but they are better off knowing the truth. Knowing that it is not them. And knowing that OW isn't this nice person. My ex actually thought the kids would be happy to know that he's happy. My kids needed me to tell them that it's okay for them to not be happy for their dad. And that what he's doing is not right, but that they can still love and pray for him.

ExH is the type of person that avoids conflict. I was the one that had to tell DS that ExH wasn't come back home when he left us, as he has told him he would. He's a coward.

That's why in part I wanted him to have to tell DS himself. I KNOW he was hoping I would, as that's how I was, I always did the dirty stuff. But it's about time ExH grew a set of b@lls and acted like a father!

Well, ExH was supposed to take DS roller skating tomorrow. He decided he had plans, so he took him tonight instead.

I had some words with ExH when he came to get DS. Told him he should have told him months ago, not after the fact. He said he didn't think it would have mattered. I told him that DS deserved better than a POS father like him.

Yes, he hopes that DS will see how happy he is and accept OW. I'm sure ExH drilled it into DS's head how OW is a "nice" person, to give her a chance etc. I'm sure they'll buy his love with gifts too in the future so DS will like her.

She's not even old enough to be DS's stepmother!!!!

Well DS just got home.

I asked him how skating was. He said it was fine. I asked him if his father told him anything. He looked at me. He knew what I was referring to. I asked him agian. He said yes. I asked him if he was sad. He said no. I asked him if he was happy he said he didn't know. I did a big no no I guess, and told him that OW will NEVER be his mother no matter what EXh tells him. I just think that I'm saying one thing, ExH is saying another and he doesn't know which end is up! I told him that I am here to talk if he wants to, and he went to his room.

I wanted to ask him what exactly ExH said to him, but I don't want to push it. He just won't open up to me or an IC. We've been to 2 IC's already and they both said he won't say anything. Will talk about everything else, except the D and his father.

He knows OW is the cause of the D. I made that VERY clear to him and explained what adultery meant, the commandments etc.

I also told him that OW was not a very nice person to pursue a married man with kids while she was married herself.

DS knew ExH was living with OW for almost 3 years, so I think he has an understanding of it all, for his age at least.

I have a teen DD who does not talk to her father because of the A. Well actually he pretty much disowned her...long story. She has no problems calling OW a wh$re in front of DS. I tell her not to, but she says that what she is and she ruined our family. She also calls ExH choice words too, in front of DS and says he needs to know what kind of father he has.

I told her hopefully he will find out in time...

Hi catgirl-

As a mom of two DS's (16 and 20 now) I can tell you that your DS most likely won't tell you a lot about what he and his dad talk about. It isn't necessarily because he is keeping it in or away from you, it's just that boys don't tend to be as relational as we women-folk. What I mean is, they aren't going to tell you everything that was said, because they didn't store away everything like a girl would. They also won't tell you how they felt about it because they aren't always sure how they feel-or how to put it into words.

So, when your DS said he didn't know how he felt-he really didn't.

My DS16 isn't one who has a lot to say about anything. I found that it helped him if I verbalized what I thought he might be feeling and then allowed him to agree with me or not. I also did it when we weren't face to face. For some reason boys respond better when they are "doing" something, even if it's sitting in the passenger seat of the car while you are driving.

Also, boys don't like to process a whole lot of emotional or verbal stuff at one time. So, I find it best to stick to one thing at a time. Let them process it and then, get back to them while they are doing something-making models, cleaning the car, etc.

Another thing about boys, it doesn't matter how old they are, they want to protect their mom. When my OS found out why his dad left, he called his dad and let my XH have it-telling him to "man up". He was 17 at the time .

That's what I think this response was about He doesn't want you to worry about him. That's how he is trying to "protect" you.

Please remember also, that when you are berating your XH, you are also talking badly about his dad. Don't worry about losing his loyalty. He knows the truth. Kids usually take their feelings out on the parent they feel safest with. It's okay to call him on it. I have to do that with DS 16 from time to time as well.

Catgirl:

We are in the same boat. My xWW married her OM a year ago. The OM is 17+ years older and is now on his 4th M. Yes, you heard that right. He cheated on all 3 of his previous wives and married each of the 3 succeeding affair partners.

The most recent M took place within days of his 3rd D being finalized...wayward OM & xWW both D'd their respective spouses to be together (I strongly suspect that some ultimatims/quid pro quo's flew back and forth to make that happen as they announced their "engagement" only a week before my xWW even FILED against me).

Yes, affair-marriages (A-Ms) fail ~90% within 10 years and I have already heard via the grapevine that "the honeymoon is over" and that my xWW is "unhappy"...she will of course deny that till the end of the earth at this point.

It hurts us both none the less, but the odds of success are slim....

I feel the same way...I know I shouldn't be vindictive, but one can't help wanting them to suffer like we did and not see "cheaters prosper"...

Catgirl,

Interesting point--Dr. Pittman ("Private Lies", excellent book) discusses this VERY subject [affair-marriages(AM)] in detail. Read it. To summarize:

AM fail 75% within 5 yrs, 90% within 10

AM often fail early on (within the first few years)

He lists 12 common "obstacles" that cause this--my xWW's AM have virtually ALL of them, as does your xWH's AM

It is statistically MORE LIKELY that a WS will back with their original S within 5yrs than still with their AM spouse.

The xWS ALMOST ALWAYS contacts the xBS to seek or "feel out" reconciliation at some point (although the xBS may not recognize the effort for what it is at the time)

He lists ~5 elements that, if enacted correctly by the AM partners, seem to increase the AM's chance of long-term "success" [again, my xWW's AM did at best 1 of them; I'm sure that applies to your xWH's sitch as well]

The odds of the original M (xBS/xWS) reconciling are inversely proportional to the length of time the A/AM continues

The above is ALMOST ALWAYS because the xBS rejects the xWS (see below), not because the xWS is "happy & fulfilled" [see Believer here on MB]

Whatever happens with the AM, the xBS (after a healing period) usually ends up with a "better life" in the long-run than the xWS

The xBS "makes a good new life" and "heals and moves on" (mentally/socially/romantically), the AM disintegrates/divorces and the xWS re-contacts the xBS --- remarkably these events seem to eerily occur at about the same time


Here is an excerpt from Dr. Pittman (article in "Psychology Today"):

"Romantic Infidelity

Surely the craziest and most destructive form of infidelity is the temporary insanity of falling in love. You do this, not when you meet somebody wonderful (wonderful people don't screw around with married people) but when you are going through a crisis in your own life, can't continue living your life, and aren't quite ready for suicide yet. An affair with someone grossly inappropriate—someone decades younger or older, someone dependent or dominating, someone with problems even bigger than your own—is so crazily stimulating that it's like a drug that can lift you out of your depression and enable you to feel things again. Of course, between moments of ecstasy, you are more depressed, increasingly alone and alienated in your life, and increasingly hooked on the affair partner. Ideal romance partners are damsels or "dumsels" in distress, people without a life but with a lot of problems, people with bad reality testing and little concern with understanding reality better.

Romantic affairs lead to a great many divorces, suicides, homicides, heart attacks, and strokes, but not to very many successful remarriages. No matter how many sacrifices you make to keep the love alive, no matter how many sacrifices your family and children make for this crazy relationship, it will gradually burn itself out when there is nothing more to sacrifice to it. Then you must face not only the wreckage of several lives, but the original depression from which the affair was an insane flight into escape."

This is definitely true:

AM partners LIE like crazy during their A. They lie to the BS(s), they lie to their families/friends, and the LIE TO EACH OTHER. The pattern continues in the AM... Truth WINS, truth LIVES, and truth is always eventually REVEALED. The AM partners will discover in time the lies they each have told each other.

AM partners never have the same level of TRUST in each other that they had in their original M(s). They KNOW that they cheated on/with others to be together and they tend to become quickly deceptive, demanding, and suspicious of each other.

AM partner(s) have unresolved ISSUES from their abandoned M(s). Few deal with them on their own, most just expect that their "in love/soulmate" feelings will carry them through and be there forever...completely fallacious

AM partner(s) have buried GUILT for what they have done and the hurt they have caused. "The greater the denial and self-deception by the WS, the greater the guilt burden they are supressing."

AM partners have unrealistic EXPECTATIONS that their new OP/AM will make it all "go away forever" and "be so much better than before"...this inevitably leads to DISAPPOINTMENT with their AM.

AM partner(s) have STUBBORNNESS & PRIDE which got them to the point they are now. "Pride commeth before the fall..." Remaining in an unhappy AM out of pride is a truly miserable experience.

An AM is a "marriage" LEGALLY ONLY. Morally, it is ongoing adultery...God (or whatever higher power one subscribes to) does not smile and will not bless such a union.

'Karma is a B***H'
'What goes around, comes around'
'What ye sow, so shall ye also reap'

PICK ONE!

What are these?



And these?

[From "Private Lies: Infidelity and the Betrayal of Intimacy" by Dr. Frank Pittman, chapter 13]
1) Intervention of Reality
2) Guilt
3) Disparity of Sacrifice
4) Expectations
5) General distrust of marriage
6) Distrust of the co-affairee
7) Divide loyalties
8) The nature of infidels
9) The nature of affairees
10) Romance
11) Scapegoating of cuckolds (BSs)
12) Unshared history

In my sitch, I would say all but #5 are at play to some extent in my xWW's AM. (I can't possibly describe each of them in detail w/o writing a book myself...read it)



And these?

[/quote]

I stand corrected--there are 7(same chapter):
1) The original M(s) were truly awful [not just in fog-speak, but truly awful]
2) The AM partners are not serial cheaters and gave considerable time and thought to what they were doing. They have a shared history of sexual exclusivity outside of the one A.
3) The AM partners had known each other for while before becoming involved...when it did become romantic, there was no sense of guilt or feelings of having cheated. [sounds silly, I know, but thet were "upfront" right away]
4) The AM partners were NOT romantics who followed their feelings. They saw themselves as making rational, thought-out decisions about their lives together. [not just getting M because "we are in love"]
5) The partners felt guilt and shame for the marital breakup(s), had true "justification", and did NOT scapegoat the betrayed(s). they did not leave their M's frivolously [by "justification" (which I don't agree with in any way) he means the ex was a massive abuser or philanderer]
6) The partners took considerable time to grieve over their D's, did not rush into a new M but let reality set in beforehand.
7) The partners took pains to win the support/understanding of family & children.


Again, in my xWW's sitch (she cheated with and later M a married OM), I would say a few of these apply partially and NONE apply completely:
1) Not at all in either case
2) OM is on his 4th M and cheated on all 3 xW's...marrying each succeeding affair partner in turn
3) Yes, they knew each other at work for 1-2 years before, but they both lied extensively and felt guilty
4) My xWW is definitely a romantic, OM I don't know
5) They both felt guilt but both have extensively scapegoated and utterly mistreated the BSs
6) Nope...my xWW filed vs. me immediately after he proposed and they got M literally before the ink was dry on both D's
7) My xWW's older sisters (whom she rarely sees--out of state) went along & she has some friends who did as well. OM's family is distant and uninvolved; his kids hate them both now.


There 'ya have it!

SDCWman,

Yeah we are in the same boat, but my ExH's W was only M'd once before.

They meet 2 of the criteria for the AM lasting, that I know of. They knew each other for a few years prior to getting M'd. Lived together over 2 years, and they weren't serial cheaters.

I know everyone says that the odds are against them, but somehow I just think they will do all they can to make it work, just so people won't say I told you so. Plus they lived together over 2 years. They dealt with reality...paying bills etc. They should know what living together is all about by now.

I guess the hardest part for me is accepting that he is M'd. I saw him last week when he came to get DS for visitation. He had on a wedding ring. Now of course I knew he was M'd, but I guess seeing that made it real.

It hurt to see another's woman's ring on his finger where my ring was for 20 years!

I don't know how his M is. He will never tell me and I don't know anyone that is in contact with him to tell me.

I know I shouldn't even care, but I so want this M to fail. I want him to hurt, like he hurt me and my kids.

My IC keeps telling me to use all that energy on me, but I still am struggling with the fact that he has someone to sleep with everynight and I don't etc. etc.

He had no problem moving on and feeling nothing for me and getting remarried, and I can't deal with that I guess.

After all those years with me how can he just marry this wh$re!?

I guess this is more of a vent, sorry. Just with the holidays approaching and me knowing he'll be sharing them with her again, just is tough.

Cat

Was she (the OW) married as well? Did they co-cheat?


I have no doubt of that in both of our situations. I also have no doubt that both AMs will fail anyway.


Ditto...I have had the exact same visuals.


Again, I feel the EXACT SAME WAY.


Again, broken record. Same for me.


We must be living parallel but opposite-sex lives. I wonder how the heck my xWW could fall for, marry, and stay loyal to a man who has betrayed 3 prior xW's, is an uneducated loser, 17 yrs older, short, fat, and utterly ignores & mistreats his 2 kids (not to mentioned long ago abandoned his eldest who will never talk to him again). What kind of "husband & father of the year" material does she see there???? How is that possible?

Catgirl, you are one of the few people I have met on these boards who I truly identify with in terms of our situations. I hope we can support each other.

SDCW
MP2007@cox.net

SD,

Yes, she was married at the time she and my ExH were having the A. Her H was clueless as was I. They were only M'd a few years though. He was 2 years older than her.

ExH has NEVER admitted he even had an A. At least your ExW showed some remorse. My ExH still claims they were "just friends" and while they were living together while he was M'd to me, he claimed she slept on the couch and they were roomies.

I pray you are right in that the AM fails. They've only been M'd 6 mos. now, so it's still recent, but I guess the question I have is... they lived together almost 3 years. He moved outog here and moved her in. That was like a M. They dealt with all the household stuff. So why will the M suddenly fall apart now? Reality set in months ago!

It might and it might not. Same with my WH-Gray and Slag.

Don't waste your time on it. Let Karma take its course. It could happen in other ways.

Charlotte

My ex thought he was in the 3% until the affair ended. Granted, it ended before they married, but the affair did last for almost 4 years.

But I'm with the counselor, move on.

100% of affairees think they are in the 3%.

CG:

I was clueless too. Despite being warned I didn't believe it or want to believe it, sooooo out-of-character for the girl I adored, so I trusted and believed her lies and evasions and cover-ups. There were, in retrospect, a hundred red flags--like why she insisted one day I write her a new BCP prescription (I'm an MD) when we weren't having sex. I didn't find out there was OM until after she filed. She wouldn't talk to me or answer her phone. I got her to call me by cancelling her email account (I had the "master" password). She called me pissed off that night. I told her "I know about you and OM". She was finally caught and saud that they were "friends". Really, I said "than why were you two making out last month in public" (a mutual acquaintance saw them). WW said "we have been friends a while, it just became a 'relationship' a few weeks ago -- after I decided to file. It has nothing to do with us not working out." Like an idiot, I almost believed that too...

That was my initial "admission" from her. That came after a grueling 6 month period of torture for me (we had separated against my will) in which I did EVERYTHING MAN COULD DO to show her how much I loved her, how sorry I was for my own mistakes, and how utterly devoted I was to reconciling our marriage (the details of which could fill pages). I now understand that she was fence-sitting the entire time and her occasional tender and sweet expressions ("I miss you!", "I love you and always will", etc.) were probably just to keep me around while she fleshed out the R with OM or were said at times when they were on the outs, she was wallowing in guilt, or they were unable to see each other. I'm sure my WW took the (obviously dishonest and insincere) "failure" of counseling and seminars as a "sign" that it was Ok to leave her M for the A. I'm also sure that their engagement "announcement" 2 weeks prior to her filing had something to do with it as well.

Many months later she de facto "admitted" that her A pre-dated her decision to file when I asked her point blank and she choked up and couldn't answer...then saying "you can believe what you want". She has NEVER admitted (and in fact still denies) the facts:
The A began LONG before we even S
The A was the reason OM's wife left him
The A is the reason OM's kids hate her
The A was the primary (by far) motivation for her to file
The A was sexual long before she "made her decision"
The A was the reason she was insincere and half-hearted in response to my reconciliation efforts
The A was the reason I found OM's clothes in our vacation house
The A was the reason she was bawling her eyes off in church while we were S (she even took her completely irreligious OM with her--the hypocrisy of 2 active married co-adulterers going to chuch together, one just gapes!)
on and on....

So, I have never received anything approaching a real admission. Only a serious of grudgingly defensive and inaccurate concessions as little details have become known. As for apologies, I have heard "I'm sorry you are hurt" and "I'm sorry for so many things" without a mention of WHAT THOSE "THINGS" ARE. It means very little without sincerity and complete honesty as I am sure you can appreciate.

More later...

SD,

Do you have a thread here?

CL:

No, I do not have any active topics of my own to discuss or request input on at present. Why?