Just found out ExH married OW. She's young enough to be his DD!

Everyone who said it would never last was wrong...

Guess there was something there. I mean why would he have M'd her if he could have had the milk for free? He was living with her for almost 3 years already.

Obviously, he's one of the 3% of A's that don't end, and end up in M.

Just venting...

Calm down. That milk tastes much worse when you are paying for it. Go on with your life so when the cow goes to be milked by another farmer, you will have the choice of what the future will bring.

Maybe he married her for cheaper health care premiums...??

Whatever the reason, they will have the same problems of most married couples and when one of them isn't "happy" anymore they know they can cheat and the other has no reason to complain.
SThere's no guarantee they will be happy just because they married. I don't know your story but since your exH is much older than OW her "love" might fizzle as he gets older and has to deal with health issue and the frequency of sex.

There's still many, many years ahead of them to make each other miserable.

Yes, he is one of the LUCKY 3 percenters.

Of course, those same statistics say that there is a 75% chance that they will divorce within 5 years.

Are you making a good life for yourself and your kids?

Yeah new wife is 17 years younger.

Doesn't he realize she cheated on her ExH, she could do it on him? Does he want to do the D thing all over again?

I honestly think he will make it work with her, just to prove eveyone wrong. DD says they act like teenageers, hugging and kissing constantly YUCK! (never did that with me!)

I kind of think he needs her $$ to float him financially, and she probably gave him an ultimatum and he had no choice.

Who knows? He still hasn't admitted to the A, do I think he'll tell me why he M'd?


Yeah I'm making as good a life as possible for my kids. As for me, having a hard time. Guess I never thought he'd do it and hope is gone.

BTW, he has yet to tell my DS. I just happened to find out by accident. Guess he's been M for awhile now, never told me.

Cat,

I've seen your posts over the last year, and I know what a tough time you have had with this. It's so hard to accept.

Yes, he may very well be in the 3% of those that last, but please don't let it ruin your life. Concentrate on you and making a good life for you and your children.

Cat

Must be the day for wedding announcements! Found out that my WH is marrying his OW next week.

And the kicker is that neither he (nor I) have received the final divorce decree. I'll check in with my attorney tomorrow to find out the status.

If he ends up committing bigamy on top of all the other crap he's done, I'll be

Anyway, don't concern yourself with whatever happens with your ex and his new "missus". More reason than ever to focus on moving on and making a great life yourself.

Smartie

I guess the 3 percenters are out there. Mine-Gray and OP-Slag were discussing the 3% thing early into the A.

They thought they were. I don't know if they still think that.

Slag is 18 years younger than Gray. There are only a couple of months or so that she's 17 years younger. So you and I have a bit in common. LOL!

Charlotte

Unbelievable. I've heard of fog, but this is pea soup. Wow.

I think the foggier it is, the faster it clears.

Chai

Pea soup is right. How I EVER hooked up with this man, I'll never know.

Have a good night--I'll be updating soon!

Smartie

I might spin it differently. The relationship began through cheating. Theory goes that affairees reach a point where they realize that if they can be cheated with, they can be cheated on. Could be the M is an act of paranoia where each one tries to lock in the relationship even though it is a ludicrous concept given that it began in a way they are now trying to avoid.

Rather than view this as the beginning of a new life for the happy couple, I tend to think it is the beginning of the end of the A. The milk will soon sour.

Yeah, but aliens like sour milk. Did you ever see "Alien Nation?"

And what if they churn the milk into butter? It does happen.

Charlotte

Yes I have seen it but also recognize that it is science fiction. Doesn't happen in the real world.

Well, I have seen a few affairages last a long time. My old boss and is AP left their spouses (20+ years and 7 grown kids involved) and have been M now for over 15 years. They are well into their 60's now, so I really wonder if they regret what they did.

Some do last I guess.....

No question that some affairages do last. My bet is this particular one hasn't a chance.

Nonsense. We read about aliens around here all of the time.

Charlotte

If you had ever read my old thread you would know that my opinion of "alien" theory is that it is simply a coping behavior developed within the BS's fog.

More simply put, it is avoidance.

Anyway, I'll put money on this affairage not going the distant.

PayPal?

Ha ha! I would have to study the history before I would agree to a wager.

A coping mechanism? It's just a label. Good as any when a spouse's personality suddenly changes. Good as any for a spouse who is out of his or her mind with lust.

I like it because putting my WS-Gray in that context made it easier to disengage. Just like on his end when he and Slag used my first initial to objectify me so they could heap their insults upon me and make themselves feel better about what they were doing.

Charlotte

QED.

That is exactly my point. Applying the label simply makes it easier for us to cope. We no longer have to try to explain anything or rationalize the A to ourselves. Our WS must be insane or they never would have had the A. While it may be a useful tool to deal with the initial shock, it is ultimately counterproductive to the process of recovering the M because it helps the BS overlook what might be some fundamental problems.

Yeah, well, the label didn't prevent me from analyzing the events that led up to the A. I understand why it happened perfectly well.

It also didn't prevent me from doing what I needed to do in Plan B and that was to disengage from Gray and purge him from my soul so I could get on with my life. I'm not sitting around waiting for him to come back, like some who are here in Plan B are.

Charlotte

I admire you for this so much, you have no idea.

I don't know if I am stupid or what, but I am obviously the one waiting. At least today.

Giorgos,

I hope you are right!

I do know of one affair M that has so far lasted 27 years. She's 50, he's 70. He already had kids, but had 2 more with her.

Thinking maybe ExH got M to start a family.

That would be hard for me. I so wanted more kids and he told me no more, he was getting too old.

Bet he'd do it to keep her though!

And I hope you can eventually reach the point where you no longer care one way or the other.

I'm not there yet, and after all this time, I think I should be.

I thought I was doing pretty well, then he threw this at me.

I don't know if I will ever get over him, and I know that's sad!

I didn't say anything about getting over anyone. He was a huge part of your life. You can't simply forget that.

What I meant was that I hope you can reach the point where your happiness no longer depends on other peoples' actions.

WH chose to remove himself from your life. You have to choose how to deal with that and all the choices you will make going forward.

Think of it another way. WH or any other human being - if we secretly rejoice in their misery (assuming the affairage fails), what does that ultimately say about us as individuals? For one thing it means we haven't healed.

I do want this M to fail and I will rejoice if it ever does. I want him to feel the pain that I have felt for 3 years now.

I want to heal. I'm in IC. I guess my ego just keeps getting battered by him and knowing that he got what he wanted, and ruined me and my kids lives, I guess I just can't get over that.

Cat,

I don't think we ever just "get over it." With time, hopefully the pain isn't as severe as it once was.

Are you dating?

You could always become the x-W from he11 and make their lives miserable.

Just work on being the best person that you can be and life will unfold. My bet is that once you let it go, things will begin to happen that you never thought possible. Right now, you aren't letting those things behind the brick wall you have put up.

Cat,

It's an affairage. Odds are it will fail.

My dad cheated on my mom with several women. He had one "main" woman in the mix and ended up marrying her.

He ended up cheating on her and it's now over and he's on his third marriage.

He's not happy.

The OW is much younger than him, which will take it's toll in time.

Best thing for you to do is to find a way to move on. I know it's easier said than done, but try with the help of your IC.

Thinking about him failing controls you. Accepting that you have no say or influence in his life is liberating.

cat, take comfort in the knowledge they will never truly be happy. There will always be the question of if/when the other will cheat again. There will always be the guilt in the background of their R. You will live a righteous life and they will answer to God at the end.

FWIW, my mother and her OM have been M'd over 30 years. I don't think my mom was ever happy. Her H worked hard to provide financially for her, which is what she was seeking. However, the price of that lifestyle was a very controlling man that never let her out of his sight for a moment. My mom now has Alzheimers and her H cannot figure out why her children are NOT helping him. Hmmm, he spent 30 years alienating us and now he pays the piper.

It will probably fail.

More than likley it will fail at about the same time that you get to the point that you no longer care.

She will probably leave him for a younger model. And he will probably try and reconnect with you. And you will be at a point where you wouldn't take him back if he was the last man on earth.

I guess I don't bank on the odds anymore. Odds are that A's end too, and my ExH's didn't.

I'm sure his wife understands the age difference by now. They've been living together almost 3 years. I'm sure she understands me, the ex wife from he## will be in the picture and he has to pay me alimony/child support, $$ that could have gone to her lavish lifestyle, but I guess she is overlooking all of that. I really would think reality would have set in by now after being together day in and day out for 3 years. I think the fantasy bubble should have burst long ago!

They say once the day to day cr@p starts, bill paying etc. that's when reality sets in and the A fizzles. Well, I imagine it has set in after 3 years, and they are in it for the long haul.

Even if they are not happy, I doubt one or the other would ever leave. They would have to acknowlege to others that they failed, and they will never do that. At least my ExH won't. His pride won't let him.

As I said, he has yet to admit to me that he ever had an A! They were just "roomies" according to him.

He##, he hasn't even told my DS yet, and I just found out they've been married several months already.

I guess I always wanted that chance to have him come back and then I would be in the driver's seat to say if I wanted him back or not.

When he left me, I wasn't in the driver's seat, I had no choice. It wasn't what *I* wanted, but it was what *he* wanted.

I know I have to get a grip and look at reality. There's not a darn thing I can do about it. They are M'd and that's it.

It's just hard for me to accept the fact that I'm the one who's trying to do everything right, raising my kid morally correct etc. and he's the one that did everything wrong by having the A, and he gets the reward, or at least waht he wanted, in the end!

Sometimes I truly think it pays to not do good.

Just read an article about John McCain. I knew his wife was younger than him, but it said she was 17 years younger (like my ExH's) and he had an affair with her while married to his first wife.

They've now been M'd 30 years!

Another one in the 3%!

Sorry but I begin to wonder when I hear statistics about A's ending in 2 years and 75% of affair M's ending in 5.

Figures, my ExH had to be one of them that didn't follow the statisitcs!

No hun, he gets no "reward" in eternity. Don't you see? He may have his "reward" here on earth but he won't in heaven. As long as he is married to her, he will be an unrepentent sinner. Believe everyone when they say this will not be a happy union even if it ends up being a long one.

Yeah I just actaully talked to to my pastor and was telling him how happy ExH was. And he said "yeah he might be happy now...what about later?"

I do believe in heaven but I guess I am more into the here and now. Not looking ahead so to speak. I really don't care if he's not happy later, I don't want him to be happy now!

Sorry if that sounds werid, but that's how I feel!

I don't buy the 3% stat. I have seen too many affairs wind up as marriages that have lasted for years. That appears to be the experience of others here as well.

I would love to see where these stats coms from.

Just throwing this out there...

Why do you think ExH hasn't told my DS about his M after all these months?

He said he didn't think he needed to know right now cuz he didn't want to change the relationship he has with him. (he really doesn't have much of a relationship anyway)

He##, he never even told me! I happened to find out through the grapevine!

I think DS should have been told before the M evne happened.

What will DS think now when he is told months later?

I dunno. Guess I think of it differently

medc,

I hear ya!

I pray that my ExH's won't last, but I think he will do everything in his power to make it last, just to prove to everyone that he could.

Staying in an unhappy marriage because of pride doesn't sound like a reward to me. Whether your ex is happy or not, you can only control your own happiness. Perhaps if you start enjoying all the blessings in your life you will be too happy and content to give a crap what exH's marriage is like.

His marriage to OW is nothing to celebrate? If your son doesn't like OW, exH will hide his M just like he hid his A. OW is still his dirty secret.

DS is a very private kid. I asked him once how he felt about OW (ExH has him sleep over there occasionally, they go out like one big happy family...) and he just shrugged. He won't tell me one way or another if he likes her or not.

Even IC couldn't get him to open up.

My twin brother is married to the woman he had an affair with 18 years ago and they got married 8 years ago after living together for 9.

He met her 2 years after his own wife was murdered by a complete stranger.

I don't think he was thinking very clearly and she was being physically abused by her husband.

There M has lasted. Is he happy?

I know of several long term affair based marriages. None of them are what I would call happy, nor fulfilling. Yes, these few 3% of adulterers have been married for many years now, but I can tell you from personal conversations with each of the participants in each affair marriage they very much wish they were not.

How about a typical example?

My next door neighbor for the 15 years I lived on the lake here was married to his OW. They hated each other. Fought all the time over the most ridiculous stuff. In the house, in the yard, on their dock, in the driveway. Anything, Anywhere. Even such small beyond-their-control stuff like changing the clocks to daylight savings time (I remember this actual fight) was an excuse to fight with each other. Only reason they didn’t divorce, according to him, was they were too old to start over, and the financial hit would have been be too big. He also admitted he felt much shame in having to admit he had been wrong.

When he died a few years ago his affair wife did not even go to the hospital. Neither did his children, nor hers. I heard she died alone in the house a couple of years ago too. Rotted away in there for a week before anyone even missed her.

Actually she had been rotting away for most of her life. And no one missed her, ever.

So, affair marriages: more power to ‘em.

They are each of them justice incarnate.

With prayers,

Yes, he's very happy.

She is a wonderful wife to him and he treats her like a queen.

He never has to wash anything, his supper is always ready when he gets home, his birds are spoiled and he takes care of anything she needs, like repairing house stuff, her car, whatever.

Heck, she won't even allow me to clean up after myself when I eat dinner with them!

However they both are an exception as they both endured unimaginable trauma.

They have had their moments when I thought they were going to break up, but since he had her biatchy parts removed, she's a regular Stepford Wife now.

I don't know what to think anymore.

I thought I knew ExH well enough to know that he would never commit to someone he wasn't sure it would last, at least after having already been through a D with me.

DD has seen them together many times and says they are like teenagers in love. Still all over each other after living together for 3 years.

New wife is very materialistic. Thought she would have bailed by now after realizing all the years he still has to pay me alimony etc., that that could have been all her $$.

I still say, they are in it for the long haul, and even if it doesn't, work he'll stay just to show everyone it did!

Just makes me sick that that whor$ shares my and my kids last name now!

It's my understanding that the 3% comes after they have been married for longer than 5 years...that the other 97% of A's either breakup during the A or within the first 5 years of M...so they have a few more years to go before they can consider themselves a *success*

I dunno. I guess it's the word "success" that seems subjective with affair marriages.

To me, living a life with the guilt of betraying and abandoning your spouse and family to be with someone who is willing to do the same, is not my definition of a successful happy marriage regardless of the duration of the marriage.

Always looking over your shoulder fearful of WHEN they'll cheat on you or having to lie to folks when they ask you "how'd you two meet" is not indicative or my definition of a successful happy marriage or life.

Just look how adultery-based marriages are treated when they come here to MB and finally fess up of how they started out. It's just one of many many consequences they suffer.

Adultery and adultery-based marriages are fraught with continued deception and darkness. Just because they marry doesn't change that dynamic, CatGirl.

I believe the two involved are one another's moral equal and deserve their future together. And because they hurt so many people to get there and fought so hard for it, some will stay in it despite the h3ll they're living. It's a prison of their own making.

Jo

Ok, so I'm putting this out here and don't hesitate to call me an [censored] if I deserve it...


But, for the life of me, I can't understand why it won't work...

OK other than the fact that they might wonder if they each will cheat again, but I'm sure they wondered that while they were livng together too...

They have been livng together for nearly 3 years. They know the day to day drudgery of paying bills, taking the garbage out, smelling their bad breath when they each wake up in the morning. AKA the fantasy of the A is over.

OW knows how much he has to pay me for many more years and knows that $$ could have been going to them. As I said she has dollar bills for eyeballs!

She knows he sees his kid every week. Albeit it's just for a little while, but that time could have been spent with her.


They know all that, yet they still got married.

Why would it not last?

It's really like they've been married now for 3 years anyway.

What is going to change and not make it last, now that they have a ring on their finger?

Nothing, how I see it...

Now that they are married, the bills will still need to be paid, as will the alimony. ExH will still come to see his kid and they'll still wake up with bad breath in the morning. The same as when they were just living together.

Am I not getting it?!

It could very well last. I think the odds are not in their favor...but we all know people in long term marriagers that started off as affairs. I would NEVER call one of these "people" my friend though.

Resilient,

I do agree.

No matter how bad the M might become, they will keep on a happy face, and I doubt very much either of them will ever leave.

They don't want to show people that they failed in yet another M and have people tell them, they told them so!

I honestly think they will work their a$$es off to make it work and to prove everyone wrong.

catgirl, some DO work! I wouldn't exactly call them successful, but some do stay together. MY XH has now been with his ho for NINE YEARS, maybe more, depending on when the affair started. They started shacking up in January 2000, after our divorce and are still together. He won't marry her and can't take her around his family, but they are still together.

The reason that most don't work is because of the very traits that made the affair possible, deceit and thoughtlessness, eventually kill the affair.

Wow Catgirl,

I feel and hear your pain so deeply. The absolute truth is we honestly really don't know what is happening between them or what will happen. We can't predict the future, but I can assure you G-d knows how it plays out.

I guess when I keep reading what you are writing, I think back to when I was married 3 years and was still in that "happy" stage. It's only human nature for the "bad" parts to come out unless someone has truly done the work to make amends for their part in hurting lives or changed as a person. From the sound of it, nothing could be further from the truth. Who knows if it will happen. It totally sucks that they have gotten to this point. When all is said and done, over the course of a marriage and lifetime there will be struggles, there will be problems and there will be their day.

I happen to think my WH and OW will be married one days when the ink is barely dry.

All I think we can do is live as best as possible, find the happines we are destined to have in spite of the deep hurts we have endured. Unfortunately we can't control others, make or break their happines, we can only do the best we can and know when the sun sets, we are good and happy ourselves and that even though life KNOCKED us down, we got back up and kept on fighting.

Is it a hollow win, YES in many ways. But it's a win and who knows one day, maybe it won't be so hollow and G-ds plan will be turned to good like he promises.

Cat, how long were you married? 3 yrs isn't really all that long. There's still plenty to years ahead of them to drive each other nuts. And if they stay together for the next 40 yrs, you don't know what goes on behind closed doors. Maybe they are happy, maybe the aren't. They have no children so they have one less stress factor to deal with. ALL married couples have problems. They will be no exception.

Thanks Queenie,

I just feel so beaten up right now, it's EXACTLY the same feeling I felt the day I found out about the A.

I literally have been crying for 3 days straight. Lost 4 pounds already.

I was really starting to do well, I thought. Went off AD's 2 months ago. Guess I go back on them again.

I honestly don't know how much more I can take of this.

I so want to be happy and show him that I don't give a cr@p about him anymore, but something is making me not move on.

Obviously he is so over me. Why can't I do the same?

When he would come to get DS, I would make sure I looked to the 9's. OW is a fat pig! Wanted him to see what he lost.

I tried to portray to him I was over him. Guess I did a good job of it huh? He beleived it so much that he moved on to her permanently!

I guess what I am trying to say here is that I am SO tired of pretending. Pretending that Mommy is really OK when my son asks me if I'm crying...no allergies acting up I say. Pretending to the world that yeah I'm glad I'm rid of him. Putting up a good face eveytime I walk out of the house even though I truly wish I were dead half the time.

I'm just tired of it all. It's been a long 3 years...

cat, I am so sorry. Please believe me when I say it won't always be like this. You WILL live over this, I promise!

We were married 20 years. Knew each other 2 years before.

They don't have kids "yet". She's young enough to have them though, and heard she wants to.

Maybe that's why they made it legal as they want to start a family.

That would literaly put me over the edge...like I'm not already.

I SO wanted more kids and ExH wouldn't allow it. Said he was too old and didn't want to be in his 60's when his kid was in high school.

Well, if he has them with her, he will be. But again, just to keep her there, he'd do anyhting.

I have a feeling he might have married her to keep her. I think he likes her $$ and needs it to float his lifestyle. I think she said marry me or I walk. So she can easily say give me a kid, or I walk.

DD says he kisses her a$$ BIG TIME. So it wouldn't surprise me at all.

Thanks Melody.

My neighbor's W had an A. She left him. She never married the guy, but they did eventually break up. This was like 20 years ago this happened.

I just saw him today and he saw me in the yard crying. Asked me what was wrong and I told him. He said he could see himself in me, years ago, but he said it will get so much better and one day I will say why did I waste all those tears over such a piece of cr@p.

The way I feel now, I don't think I will ever be happy agian.

I can't imagine starting over. We had a very good life. He makes good money and we were very comfortable. I'm thisclose to losing my house now, he's put me in such financial ruin. I wanted my life with my ExH, and now he gave the life that should have been mine, to some wh$re!!!

I hate my life. ExH, has someone to go home to everyone night, someone to sleep with everynight.

What the fuc# do I have !!!!????

Cat, it sounds like you have put on a brave front for so long that you haven't had the chance to grieve for the loss of your marriage because you were trying to save it and holding onto hope that your H would return. If BSs didn't love their WSs it would be so much easier to just say [censored] them and walk away. You have your children and you KNOW you are a good person cat. Your exH and the other woman can't say the same. I can hear how low you are feeling today, but the future can bring good things to you. Sorround yourself with good people. You managed to survive D-day and all the crap that followed. You will survive this too.

That's the thing Raven...

I just feel as if I can't do it anymore...I have no more strength to pick myself up and go on.

Yeah I did survive D Day way back then and thought things were getting better because I still had the hope that ExH and OW would end the A and I might still have a chance. I mean pretty much everyone told me A's end.

Well that door closed for me now and I am right back where I started 3 years ago, but feeling even worse now that I know there is no hope.

Ijust want revenge I guess. I want him to hurt like he's hurt me. I want him to feel the pain I've felt nearly everyday for 3 years.

WHEN WILL HE GET HIS??????

There is NOTHING in the world that anyone on here really can say that will make it BETTER. But its an honor to have you walking through this with us and knowing that you are safe and care for and loved on here.

Why, because WE UNDERSTAND, so you aren't alone. WE KNOW this pain, and this GRIEVING and as horrible as it is, unfortunately we have to WALK THROUGH IT TO GET TO THE OTHER SIDE.

I would agree with the rest you are grieving because you have been so strong for SO LONG and it's NOT FAIR.

I wish there were magic words to take the pain away. I can't. What I can tell you is that before it gets better, it gets worse and then you don't think it can get worse and it does, and it does again and it does until we have felt all that we need to feel in the grieving.

Just let it be, feel the feelings and understand once you get through this you WILL be ok. You will be stronger for having faced these feelings. My AA sponsor kept repeating to me, no amount of pain will kill you, what you do with that pain will.

We are all here right along with you, walking through it every step of the way. Write, scream, cry, beg G-d to take it away but keep going. Because if you stop in he!!, where do you stay?

The reality is we DON'T know when and if he will get his.

All we do know is we are going to MAKE IT..

YOU CAN DO THIS. You are ONE OF US...

We are STRONG... We are SURVIVORS...

And if nothing else, hold onto the fact that one day you will NEED to help someone this through just like we are with you. G-d has plans for you.

TRUST HIM.....

Sorry, but I've lost my faith in God.

Not to sound mean, but I prayed literally for 3 years to God, to saints, to whoever would listen, for ExH to come back, to leave her, heck, even to admit to me he had an A!

Nothing. So there's a God you say? Well where is he? He sure hasn't been helping me these last 3 years.

Looks like he's been helping the sinners. Helping my ExH, who never even had a faith and never prayed or went to church. Helping his wh$re, get my ExH! He must have been helping them, because they seem to have gotten what they wanted by being sinners, and I was the one who believed, went to church all that stuff, and where did it get me?

Your in luck I have enough faith for us both.

Because I believe in you and for what you have stood for and walked through.

Catgirl - Things will get better for you. I took me about 3 and a half years to feel good again. You need to do your grieving and take good care of yourself. And my bet is the marriage won't last long.

They both know they have a cheater on their hands. And your husband at least, has given up a lot for the OW. So now he will be thinking that she'd better be worth it. And she will be resentful of his family time and the money he has to pay.

Perhaps HIS way of helping you is to keep your lying, cheating, no good excuse for a man husband away from you.

catgirl, God is not a cosmic puppeteer who forces people to do your will AGAINST THEIR WILL. God allows people to choose evil. He gives us FREE WILL. Can you imagine if God came down and MADE you do something against your will? If you lost your faith over that, then your faith was very misplaced, because God never promises to make people do your will at the point of a gun.

B R A V O

except for the spelling typo

I hope you are right Believer, but again I ask...shouldn't OW and ExH have realized it all by now? Why is being M going to make a difference now, if they've been living togehter and he's been paying me and seeing his kid all during those 3 years, why would somehting all of sudden make them break up now?...

Melody...So then what exactly do I pray for?! I ask God to help me cope. Apparently I'm not...

I understand God is not a genie who just grants any wish you throw his way.

But I guess I see it as God giving it all to ExH who doesn't even believe!

I don't know, I guess I just don't understand it all. I'm tired.

Well, I would realize that God is not SANTA and stop sending him your wish lists. God is interested in doing HIS WILL, not yours. Pray that His Will be done in your life and move over and get out of his way!

Melody... I will try

But how do I handle seeing God do "His Will" on my ExH and OW by giving them what they wanted.

Sorry if I'm such an [censored], but I guess I look at it as it's not fair. Yeah, I know, life's not fair, but God's will is to make ExH and OW happy and me not? He's rewarding sinners and punishing me?

Maybe I need to talk to clergy to straighten me out on God.

catgirl, God does not help someone in their sin. He does not promote adultery, he is against it. Remember the 10 commandments? Your xH has free will as Mel said. God has no part in this, in fact God weeps over his lost sheep. I will pray for you. I will pray that you open your eyes and heart and see that God has been holding you and weeping with you the last 3 years.

huh?? That is not GOD'S WILL! Good grief!! sheesh, crack addicts are also "happy," [for awhile] does it mean they are blessed by GOD? Car theives are happy when they steal a car, does that mean they are blessed? Your XH is on the path to he11 and you admire him? CAT... CAT..... wake up, girlfriend!

Cat:

If YOU could comprehend GOD, then He wouldn't be GOD. He wants us to have FAITH in HIM and BELIEVE in HIM. HIS ways are MYSTERIOUS, not for MAN to UNDERSTAND.

Proverbs 2
Moral Benefits of Wisdom
1 My son, if you accept my words
and store up my commands within you,
2 turning your ear to wisdom
and applying your heart to understanding,

3 and if you call out for insight
and cry aloud for understanding,

4 and if you look for it as for silver
and search for it as for hidden treasure,

5 then you will understand the fear of the LORD
and find the knowledge of God.

6 For the LORD gives wisdom,
and from his mouth come knowledge and understanding.

7 He holds victory in store for the upright,
he is a shield to those whose walk is blameless,

8 for he guards the course of the just
and protects the way of his faithful ones.

9 Then you will understand what is right and just
and fair—every good path.

10 For wisdom will enter your heart,
and knowledge will be pleasant to your soul.

11 Discretion will protect you,
and understanding will guard you.

12 Wisdom will save you from the ways of wicked men,
from men whose words are perverse,

13 who leave the straight paths
to walk in dark ways,

14 who delight in doing wrong
and rejoice in the perverseness of evil,

15 whose paths are crooked
and who are devious in their ways.

16 It will save you also from the adulteress,
from the wayward wife with her seductive words,

17 who has left the partner of her youth
and ignored the covenant she made before God. [a]

18 For her house leads down to death
and her paths to the spirits of the dead. 19 None who go to her return
or attain the paths of life.

20 Thus you will walk in the ways of good men
and keep to the paths of the righteous.

21 For the upright will live in the land,
and the blameless will remain in it;

22 but the wicked will be cut off from the land,
and the unfaithful will be torn from it.

I guess I need to start reading my bible, however I must say I always had a hard time understanding it.

Thank you Melody for the Proverbs. I will read them daily and hopefully I can find comfort in them.

Catgirl - I went through a crisis of faith, just like you are experiencing. It felt like I led a godly life and the affairees got all of the blessings. But it didn't last for them. Plus I have the comfort of knowing that I mostly took the high road.

I'll be praying for you.

Believer,

What you said is *exactly* how I feel. I guess I didn't know how to put it in words like that.


Yeah I feel like I've done good things in my life, or at least I tried to. Always put my kids and family first... No I wasn't a perfect wife, but I never cheated on my H or anything like that. I used to go to church every week, volunteered at school, did charity stuff etc.

And yeah, now I feel like they are being rewarded for doing bad.

It's a hard pill to swallow at first. But I promise you it does get better. If the affairees have any integrity at all, they know they have done wrong. Their marriage will NOT be blessed.

You have done the right thing, and in the end will be blessed. It is just very hard in the meantime.

Maybe that's why ExH has to yet tell DS about M? Becuase he knows it's wrong and is ashamed to?

Doubt it though. He has no morals.

The psalms work really well to.

Hi Cat, I've been worrying about you, but here you are getting so much love and guidance from the best.

Sleep tight

Hi Cat,

How are you doing today?

Catgirl you have posted to me before in the past so I know your situation...so sorry to hear about your H.That is my biggest fear,that he marries her....and OW sharing our surname.

Lets hope that it won't last..statisticaly it shouldn't.

Queenie,

I'm doing the same thanks. Still feeling like sh#t. Lost 6 pounds since the weekend. Can't eat, and if it does, it comes right out if you know what I mean! This is exactly how it was back on D-day. I feel like deja vu all over again!

Went to IC today. She said I am giving ExH too much power. Use that on me! Yeah I know all of that. I know the millions of tears I've cried will not bring him back or break them up. I know I have to concentrate on me etc., etc.

Right now though, I really wish I was dead.

I went to a lawyer today too regarding ExH not paying etc. Told him the sit. He said it is very, very, very, slim that it will last. He sees it all the time. Why do I think they will be different and it will? I truly think it will...
He said he PROMISED me and said it like 4 times, that I would have the last laugh. Wish I could believe it.

I guess what I want and I know this is SO RIDICULOUS, but I want someone to tell me, it won't last, he will be miserable, he will see the pain and destruction he caused him family and come crawling back and then I can have that choice to say go to h#ll or not. I want OW to cheat on him, so he feels what I've felt for 3 years. I just want to know that he will get his and in the end, end up being alone without anyone as she would have left him for somone better. Yeah, I know, I wish I had a crystal ball.

But as much as I know that's not possible, I still want it. I'm such an [censored]!

Hope,

Yeah it sucks that that wh$re now has my and my kids last name! I really havnen't been on the boards in awhile, I was doing alright and then this. Yeah statistics said the A wouldn't last either and it did. I don't believe them anymore...Hope you are hanging in there.

Cat

Here's the thing, Catgirl.

What typically happens is they DO crash and burn BADLY.

But, it usually only happens AFTER you don't care anymore.

Life is so weird.

Can't tell you how many times I've seen that happen. The BS comes here after a few years and tells us "yeah, my ex-H and OW/Wife are divorcing, it's ugly ..... she/he cheated".

But the F-BS is no longer emotionally invested in the sitch AT ALL, so doesn't really care anymore. Some even express a small level of sympathy for their EX.

Go figure.

This Buds for you Cat,


I'm telling you.

WE ARE GODDESES!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GOT ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Catgirl,
You said something really sweet to me on another thread so I really sat up and took notice when you expressed how much you're still hurting (hurting again?) after all this time.

I'm so sorry.
Be good to yourself.

True, but you cannot know the turmoil within.

I'm a FWW. I divorced my first husband after my A. Not to be OM but really fogged out and full of justification.

I just wanted to let you know that while outwardly he may look like he's happy eventually he'll crash and burn inside- if he had any heart at all.

I hurt everyday over the guilt and the things I've done to my kids. I don't wish I was still married to him because I'm married to someone else now (not OM) but I still feel awful for what I did.

I've asked for forgiveness and he won't give it to me, which is his right and I understand it. No matter what he did to me he still didn't deserve what I did to him.

Hope I don't get tomatoes thrown on me for popping in to this thread to say this but I truly wanted to let you know it can happen. He will hurt over this- at some point. You may never ever know or see it but he will.

I say that because you seem like a great person and I cannot imagine that you'd be married to anyone that wasn't a great person. Of course WH is not a great person now as he's been abducted by aliens. I hope you see where I'm going with this.

Coachswife,

Just curious. Did you try to save your M after you realized that you had made a mistake?

Queenie,

Thanks! I don't feel much of a Goddess now though!

Turtle,

Thanks for your thoughts. I did pray for your dog and remember St. Francis of Assisi is the saint for animals. Say a prayer to him. Maybe he'll help...

Coach...

No tomatoes here, thanks for being honest. It's good to hear from the "other side". I "did" think ExH was a good person, but after all of what he's done, not even the A, but how he's handled my kids and all, I wonder if I really knew him at all!

Just having a hard time today with coming to grips that he loved her enough to marry her, and the love that should have gone to me is now hers!!!

Reality setting in really sucks!

Hi catgirl, I’m sorry for your pain.

Here are a few more good scriptures:

Proverbs 23:17, 18 (NCV) “Don’t envy sinners, but always respect the Lord. Then you will have hope for the future, and your wishes will come true.”

All of Psalm 37 is good, but just for starters, 1 - 7 “Don’t be upset because of evil people. Don’t be jealous of those who do wrong, because like the grass, they will soon dry up. Like green plants, they will soon die away.

Trust the Lord and do good. Live in the land and feed on the truth. Enjoy serving the Lord, and he will give you what you want. Depend on the Lord: trust him, and he will take care of you. Then your goodness will shine like the sun, and your fairness like the noonday sun.

Wait and trust the Lord.”

The version I have is the New Century Version. Max Lucado is the general editor. I was told it was translated as closely from the original languages as possible. It's a little easier to understand.

The Bible really can bring you comfort and guidance. Hang in there.

God bless,
Rose

Thanks Rose,

Just confused with this one, I guess this is what I don't understand...

*Enjoy serving the Lord, and he will give you what you want. Depend on the Lord: trust him, and he will take care of you.*

ExH and OW don't even go to church or hardly believe...serving the Lord... as it states above, yet they got what they wanted and are being taken care of!

The HARDEST thing to accept it's G-ds time, NOT OURS...

Trust G-D. He will take care of you, even when I didn't believe it I acted as if. I wanted to die once upon a time, I really did.

Mine left me for a crack addict with hep c. He hasn't looked back once, but I TRUST...

It was ALL I had....

Jeremiah 29:11

"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."

I survived on this one.....

Hi catgirl – Your xWH and OW didn’t necessarily GET what they wanted from God, they TOOK it from you. Like Melody was saying earlier, they exercised free will. If your xWH was a nonbeliever, there are also scriptures about being “unequally yoked.” You wrote earlier about talking to clergy. Clergy or a Christian counselor might be able to help you find and understand applicable scriptures more efficiently.

Meanwhile, back to the good old King James Version of Psalm 37:4. That translation says “Delight thyself in the Lord; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.” I have heard it explained this way: God puts the desires into your heart that are best for you. When we surrender to his will, our desires can change.

Rose

CatGirl,

During my then-Husband's affair he hadn't left me. And the OW was furious and desperate to get him to leave me.

The OW told my husband "God won't give you your future until you accept it".

OW translation: to follow God's will and accept his future, my husband needed to leave me and be with her.

He left me. He divorced me. AND he married her.

Now mind you, for a time I was angry at God because I thought she got what she wanted from God even though I knew in my heart and faith it was WRONG. Even though it was SIN. Even though it nearly destroyed me.

But I have come to realize that God gave both OW and my H free will. A free will to SIN and a free will to even claim to know God's will and use it in the most preverse way to get what they wanted. When in truth, God had nothing to do with their sinful choices and her evil conniving ways.

God never abandoned me CatGirl, He has always been here watching over me. Just like He is with you.

Jo

Psalm 77 (The Message)

1 I yell out to my God, I yell with all my might, I yell at the top of my lungs. He listens.

2-6 I found myself in trouble and went looking for my Lord;
my life was an open wound that wouldn't heal.
When friends said, "Everything will turn out all right,"
I didn't believe a word they said.
I remember God—and shake my head.
I bow my head—then wring my hands.
I'm awake all night—not a wink of sleep;
I can't even say what's bothering me.
I go over the days one by one,
I ponder the years gone by.
I strum my lute all through the night,
wondering how to get my life together.

7-10 Will the Lord walk off and leave us for good?
Will he never smile again?
Is his love worn threadbare?
Has his salvation promise burned out?
Has God forgotten his manners?
Has he angrily stalked off and left us?
"Just my luck," I said. "The High God goes out of business
just the moment I need him."

11-12 Once again I'll go over what God has done,
lay out on the table the ancient wonders;
I'll ponder all the things you've accomplished,
and give a long, loving look at your acts.

13-15 O God! Your way is holy!
No god is great like God!
You're the God who makes things happen;
you showed everyone what you can do—
You pulled your people out of the worst kind of trouble,
rescued the children of Jacob and Joseph.

catgirl,

When you look at your Ex and his OW and you think,

"Look, they don't go to church. They are sinners who got what they asked for, they got what they wanted, and God gave it to them."

You might be thinking ahead of yourself, and trying to think ahead of God.

I say that because none of us knows what the plan is for them (or for us, for that matter).

Right now, sure, from where you sit you may very well think they are getting what they wanted.


Maybe God knows what they needed in their lives, and He gave them that so that they each would learn what it is they need to learn. Maybe they each need to learn and understand what it is to live in fear that their spouse will commit adultery. Maybe they need to learn what it is to live with distrust every day, questioning the motives and words of the one person it is that we are supposed to be able to trust. Maybe they need to learn what it is to lie awake in bed and have remorse, regret, and to experience the burning need to make amends for a terrible wrong and not be able to do that.

Maybe God has plans for them to learn from their mistakes by reliving them, or by fear of reliving them.

Maybe God has plans for them to have a happy marriage, and regret every single day that they did the wrong things in their first marriages, knowing that those marriages probably could have been happy, too, if only their own stupid behavior would have been different and righteous - for them to know that they should have done things differently, and that there is no way to fix or un-break what they have already broken.

Maybe God planned for them to get married, so that they could constantly answer the question, "So, how did you two meet?" with an awkward pause and consideration of having to lie about it.

Maybe God has given them their lives together so they wake up every single morning to look into the face of the person who led them to compromise every fiber of their moral being. Maybe this is a plan for them to have that kind of mirror into their own souls each and every day for the rest of their lives.

Sure, from where you are today, you might think God has given them what they WANTED.

But maybe God has given them exactly what they DESERVED.


SB

SB,

That was amazing. Thank you and please know how much you are missed.

Queenie

Thank you

We can trust Him because of what He has already done.

We only know what we want, but He knows what is best for us.

His desire is not just for us to be happy but for us to be like Him.

He will comfort you...

Com = with

Fort = strength or power (same word as the word in music FORTE, with POWER)

He comforts...

with HIS power...

HIS strength.

He is WITH us when we are at our lowest.

He is WITH us when we feel our worst.

He is WITH us when we feel helpless.

He gives us comfort...

HIS strength...

Not our own.

He cries when we cry...

He wants YOU to be whole...

He loves WH more than you do...

He cries for WH too...

Mark

Cat, Please grab the wisdom and comfort of Mark's words.

Proverbs 16 (NIV)

4 The LORD works out everything for his own ends—
even the wicked for a day of disaster.

5 The LORD detests all the proud of heart.
Be sure of this: They will not go unpunished.

6 Through love and faithfulness sin is atoned for;
through the fear of the LORD a man avoids evil.

7 When a man's ways are pleasing to the LORD,
he makes even his enemies live at peace with him.

8 Better a little with righteousness
than much gain with injustice.

The antithesis of verse 7 is that when a man's ways are not pleasing to the Lord, he will have no peace.

WH gets what he wants.

OW gets what she wants.

They WANT God to leave them alone.

They get what they want.

They get none of God's peace.

Mark

thing is, you assume that the best thing for you, is to be reunited with your WxH. He could leave OW, come crying back to you, move back in and save your house.

But in fact, the Lord has a far better plan for you! The Lord would like to give you a life that is way better than anything you can currently dream up for yourself. You assume that you know what is best for you - but as long as you continue to try to force your own plans(bring my H back right now!), you will stay stuck right where you are. That makes me very sad for you.

When my WxH first left, he told me that it must be "Gods will" otherwise, why would he have me the OW? I was completely devastated! I was the one who went to church every Sunday, and sang in the choir. he went to chruch about once a month, at the most. But God would give him a fun new relationship, and leave me to be the lonely single Mom?

At first I prayed every day for him to return. Please Lord, just bring him home. I would do anything to get him back. But after a while, when I saw the man he had become, his selfishness, his lack of concern for his children, I started to realize that I really didn't want that particular man for a H. After the D was final, I started to build the life that I wanted. I sold my house and moved into one that was closer to the kids school - to simplify my life. I decorated the way I wanted to. And I started doing things that were fun for me!

At this point, almost 6 years after my D, my life is FAR better than ANYTHING I could have dreamed up. I have been married for the past 3 years to a wonderful man, who shares my faith.
We live in a house that is twice the size of my old one. My wedding ring is way bigger than my old one :MrEEk:
We have good friends that we hang out with, and I am never embarassed to tell them that about how my new H and I met (it was on EHarmony!)

In 3 weeks we fly to Germany to take a European River cruise on the Danube. I could go on, and on.

My point is this: it is time to stop fighting with God. He has a great plan for your life - it may not be exactly like my life, and it may not be the plan that you had in mind, but he has a plan for YOU. he knows where you have been, and he knows where you are headed. If you need to sell your house - sell it! Quit praying for your H to return, and start asking God to mold you, use you, and show you the life that he has planned for you. Open yourself up to all the possiblites. You are thinking on a much smaller scale than God does.

my 2cents worth - go straight to God on this. Pray directly to the Father, in the name of the son. Of course, I am an Evangelical, Foursquare Christian, and that is just the way we do things! But you may give it a try - go right to the source.

First I want to thank you all from the bottom of my heart for taking the time to post to me.

You all have been VERY kind! I am extremely stubborn and pig headed, I know.

I have NEVER been a patient person. I always wanted things done yesterday. I guess that's why I'm having such a hard time doing it all on "God's time".

I will read all those psalms and proverbs and hopefully they will give me peace in my life.

So many people have said to me in 5 years I will look back on all of this and say what a fool I was to waste so much of my life on him. Life is too short.

I guess I just want to know that being good *will* have it's rewards in the end, cuz I sure don't see it that way now.

Resilient and WOF...

Just curious...

What are your ex's doing now and do you really think that God gave them what they deserved. I know that didn't come out right, but I think you know what I mean.

For the longest time after our divorce my ex-H continued to try and keep me in his triangle, it was very hurtful and destructive. Post-divorce I continued to counsel with Steve Harley and he got me thru it. We had no childen together so there was no reason for contact between he and I. There was also an OC in the mix which complicated matters a bit because I had a relationship with him as his step-mom.

BTW, we were married for 16 years, together 21.

We divorced in late-2001, and my ex-H married the OW in 2005 (4+ years later) directly following her receiving a huge sum of money on a technicality from a breast implant suit she had been pursuing for over 15 years.

Most of this was told to me by mutual friends. Not so recently I was told they're having serious problems and are in marital counseling. Big surprise there.

I trust God completely, CatGirl. He has taken care of me through all of the really bad times (cancer during the betrayal, OW harassing me and having to take her to court for it).

I think the worse part of this was after the divorce, its then that I needed anti-deps to get me thru the really low times. I took them for 6 mos and then things started to get better. Counseling with Steve Harley REALLY helped too.

I did feel hurt when I learned my Ex-H actually married this unstable abusive person in 2005. I revisited some depression then but it didn't last long at all. And to be honest, there's a part of me that hopes they make it work because ultimately the OC suffers for their mistakes. But as a whole I just don't care if they do or don't. Just as long as they both leave me alone.

My life is wonderful now. The extraordinary people here on MB helped me thru that terrible time. That's why I still post, to give back. I couldn't have got where I'm at without their help. I owe them and God my life.

Jo

I would not suggest this at all. You fought for your marriage. You did everything you could. It was not your failure. What you did was the right thing to do. You were not the fool, he was.

If you are drowning, is it a waste of time to fight to survive? Is it a waste of time to fight to breath or to struggle to keep your head above water?

Not a waste of time at all, merely a lost cause. Not because of what you did, but because of what he did.

Mark

Thanks Mark,

I just posted on another thread that some days I wish I never would have filed for D. I wish I would have waited to see what happened. I think filing just pushed them together more.

Honestly I'm at the point where I don't even know who I should listen to anymore. My heart tells me one thing, my head another.

EVERYONE told me the A would end. They all eventually do they said. Well his didn't, he M'd her!

How could he just forget the 20 years we had, and now love her?

Sorry, but today is a real bad day for me...

Okay, cat. I'm going to tell you something that I only tell to my best friends:



You are wallowing in self-pity. When will the self-pity and woe-is-meing end? When you decide to make it end.

Does it suck? Absolutely!
Is it unfair? Absolutely!
Do you have a right to be hurt? Absolutely!

You have some new choices to make. Get up, get out, and LIVE. Force it if you have to.

It will continue to hurt as long as it takes you to heal. You cannot heal when you still welcome the pain.

What are you doing for YOU today that has nothing to do with thoughts of WxH and OP?


Fox

My ex was still with OW#1 at the time of our D, and insisted that "as soon as we are divorced, I am going to marry her!!"
I knew at the time,that if he did M her, it would never last. She had 2 small children, and he did not want small children around. He always saw small children as a burden.
About 6 months after our D was final, I heard that he moved into an apartment by himself. But he told people that they were "still dating, they just felt it would be better to live in seperate homes for now"

soon after that, I heard that he was dating other people.
And then one day he called to tell me that she had gotten a restraining order agaisnt him for "stalking" her. I don't think he was really stalking her - but she is a cop, with friends at the court house, so this was very easy for her to do. At that point, apparntly their R was finally over.

He did make a feeble attempt to get back with me - but it was obvious that he just saw me as another available single woman in the dating pool, so I asked him to please take me off his list of options. At that point I could tell that he truly had no respect for M. Being faithful in M was ok as long as things were going ok, but if you got bored or something better came along,then M was no different then dating in high school. You break up with one girl, to date someone else the next day. I did not realize during our 18 years of M that he had such a shallow view of M. I have decided that if it took him 18 years to finally stray, I must have been a pretty awesome W to keep him around for the first 18 years!

Anyway, he started "seeing" another married woman. her 2 boys were the same age as mine - in fact they were in school togehter. As a result of their A, she divorced her H (which was H number 2 for her) and moved in with my WxH. after about a year of living together, they did get married.

I do not talk to him much. My boys are 18 and 21 now, so I rarely need to talk to him. But occasionally the boys will make comments about Dad and his W, and I can tell things are not well. The reason they started "seeing each other" in the first place, was because they wanted someone to make them feel good, all the time. the whole dynamics of an A is this: I am all ready married, living in a comfortable home, with my children and S. But I want to have that "happy happy" feeling that I get from someone else. So the A partners say all the right things, and do all the right things, to win their affections. But no one can keep that act up for ever.

I know that they do not vacation together - my WxH is still using all his vacation time for his various hunting trips.And my boys do not like to go over to their house very often becuase, as they put it, she is bi-polar.

I have no doubt that M will not last. After all, neither of them have done the work to figure out what makes a M last. My new H and I attend Marriage bible studies, we have date night once a week, we take trips together. We are doing everything we can to insure a good M. We have really tough times too - issues with step chidlren, job stress, that sort of thing. but we did not get into our M looking for someone to make us "happy happy" all the time. we know better. M is a lot of work - and a great blessing at the same time. We are not in it for our own jollies - my greatest pleasure is seeing the smile on my H's face when I do something special for him, or watching the joy he expresses on Sunday mornings when we are singing and praising and worshipping God.

Is your WxH really the great man you think he is/was? Would you really want to spend your retirement years with him? Is he a great conversationalist? a great companion at church? Could the two of you enjoy simple pleasure together? Or do you just miss the stabilty that came from being a married woman? Are you just fearful of telling people "I am a single, divorced woman?"

My experience with the dissolution of my M was devastating for me, and my darling boys. I would not wish that on anyone. But right now I am so thankful for the life I have, the future I have.

I truly think that the only reason you are still "stuck" is becuase you choose to be.You are convinced that the only possible way to be happy is by getting back together with your WxH. This man has shown himself to be a liar, a cheat. If you were just meeting him today, for the first time, you would not even want to date him. Yet you hang your whole lifes happiness on that one man. wouldn't it feel good to fianlly release yourself from that burden? to build a good life for yourself, that does not rely on that man?

Thanks Wild,

I needed that! I KNOW all the tears in the world won't make him come back. I KNOW all the tears in the world won't break them up, but I guess I DON'T KNOW how to stop that.

After the D, I did the...do things for yourself stuff. Went out on a date, saw my friends more, got a new hairdo, for the first time got fake nails put on, lost more weight, got new clothes. Ya know what? It didn't make a diffenrece. I didn't ENJOY doing any of it.

ExH was still in my thoughts. While I was having my fake nails put on I thought, gee ExH would probably have liked them, or when I was buying that new shirt, I thought, gee ExH would think that was a good fit on me. And now everytime I look at my DS, who is growing up to be a dead ringer for ExH, I think of him!

I TOTALLY agree with you. I am having a pity party. But I guess after seeing that all those thins I did for myself, didn't really change the way I felt, I don't know how to end that party.

It's a marathon, cat. Stick with taking care of you and improving/changing things for YOU, not things you think WxH would like.

To be honest, those things creep in my head still, too. "WxH" would think ______ about that."

They were a HUGE part of our lives and we continue to grieve their deaths.

Hopefully, someone can chime with thoughts about enmeshment and how to extricate yourself from that. It's hard, really hard.

But so necessary for you.

Meet your thoughts of what WxH would think with what YOU think. You think WxH would like your fake nails, did YOU like them? Give yourself compliments based on what YOU think, not anyone else.

You need to find your self-respect and self-worth and I wish I could tell you HOW. Have you checked into a grief counselor at all? Someone specifically familiar with the process of a death/divorce and the grief related to that?

I wish I could offer you more - hopefully others will chime in with putting an end to defining yourself through the eyes of WxH.

Take care,
Fox

ETA: Is there a payoff or a benefit you get by continuing to hurt? What are the advantages to remaining in this pit? Think hard, there are some.

I was absolutely offended when someone asked me this question - but it got me thinking.

WOF,

Yes, I am stuck on him. I was raised where D was usually not an option. My parents were M'd over 50 years and I saw them tough it out MANY times. Why couldn't I have done that? My kids shouldn't have to be raised in a single parent home.

I think my biggest problem right now is jealousy. I am jealous of the fact that she is getting what I should have had. She is having the last laugh in that she got something that she knew I wanted.

This is going to sound very shallow and I don't want to portray myself as just wanting someone for material things, because I am not like that at all... But ExH made a very nice salary. I was never in want. We got whatever we wanted, went on several vacations a year. I'm bankrupt and lucky if I can take my kids to a local carnival for a vacation. I miss that lifestyle and now she is getting it. My kids miss that life too.

Yes, I am VERY ashamed to say I am D'd. VERY ASHAMED. I am ashamed my kids having to tell people their parents are D'd. I am afraid if I am out alone shopping or whatever, that I will meet up with someone ExH knows, or even meet up with ExH and OW, and they will see I am alone, not with anyone. I guess in their own way they will say ha ha we/they moved on, she didn't.

I am VERY jealous of him having someone in his life. Of him having someone to go home to and talk about his day and having someone to sleep with everynight. I don't have that. Or of him being able to just forget about me and what we had, and able to M again so soon after the D.

Would I want ExH now if I just met him knowing he had cheated on his family? No. Did I want to spend the rest of my golden years with him? Yes. We had plans when we got older. Now those plans will go to her. No, He wasn't the best father, maybe not even the best husband, but I wanted HIM. I liked how he would look at me in bed in the morning and say good morning to me. Or thank me for making his dinner, which I didn't think needed a thank you. Such DUMB stuff like that, I miss and now she is getting it.

My IC tells me I want the comfort of him. I want knowing his habits, his ways etc. She said I don't want to have to deal with learning someone's habits, how they like their eggs, or how they like to have sex, or over again. And she is right. I was comfortable with him, good or bad, I liked the life I had, up until he had the A, and I knew what to expect and what things were like.

I guess I'm scared that I won't get that again. I'm scared that I will forever be comparing that new person to Exh... new person doesn't make enough money as ExH did, or new person kisses like cr@p or whatever. Yeah I know real shallow stuff, but that goes through my mind.

Having had him in my life, for half of my life, I just can't turn it off.

I know that all sounds silly, but I'm being honest.


Wild...

As I said I am in IC and she is TRYING to get through to me, but I guess I have put that wall up and maybe just don't WANT to deal with it.

I don't know of any payoff. Trust me. I put up a VERY good front around my kids and others in public. It's not like I go around telling everyone what's going on. As I said, I am ashamed to say I am D'd. I come here and go to my IC. Other than that, most people think I'm doing well, have moved on, that ExH isn't even a factor anymore. If they only knew.

I guess that's part of it too. I'm TIRED of having to live 2 lives. I wish I could tell my DS just what a piece of sh$t his father is by doing what he did. But of course I would never do that. So I have to pretend that Dad is great and hopefully someday DS will put it together himself.

she is STUCK with a lying cheating pig. No prize in my book.

Keep up with the therapy. You have a lot of bitterness to work through.

One day you will be much happier without this fool. YOu have no reason to be ashamed. He is the one that should be in the shadows....you should walk tall as you are a loved child of God that has been wounded but not killed by one you trusted.

Catgirl - There is nothing wrong with missing the financial benefits that you and your husband enjoyed. I feel the same way. My ex and I raised 8 kids together, and it was a huge struggle. I worked outside the home and devoted my life to our family.

Then, just when they were all leaving to start their own lives, the OW came into the picture. She and my ex went through all of our savings in less than a year. She did NOTHING to earn any of it, but stepped in to enjoy the fruits of our marriage.

medc,

Yeah I'm sure they know what each of them are...cheaters, but that still didn't stop them from getting M'd to each other!

Believer,

Then how did you deal with that? My ExH makes VERY good $$. I KNOW they are living VERY high on the hog right now. She makes good $$, but is VERY materialistic however and likes her designer stuff.

She told her ExH that he didn't make enough $$ for her, so she would go find a rich guy (my H!)

Her ExH told me that he guaranteed she'd have my ExH bankrupt in a year. She did. Actually it took a year and a half for him to file!

So I know both of them expect to live nice lives, a life I should be living.

How do you deal with that!!!??

As I said I am so jealous that she will be living the good life now and I will be struggling and scrimping with 2 kids!

I know I sound oh woe is me, but that's my reality right now.

About your WxH and his affair partner – you are assuming WAY too much!You assume that he has forgotten you – but he hasn’t. I think you know that is not true. You do not forget such a big part of your life. He is struggling to make this new M appear normal, but he is so ashamed of it that he doesn’t even tell anyone that they are married. I’ll bet that makes her angry. How would you like to be married to a man who won’t even tell anyone that he is married to you?

Every time she makes him a meal that is somewhat like you made, but not exactly the same, he remembers you. When a certain song comes on, a woman walks by with a certain smell, all those things make him think of you. And he is just hoping that if he can make this new R “normal” that it will be all right.

You still want revenge. I wish I could convince you that the best thing you can do is just give that up to God. Trust me that no one in this world can take care of revenge as well as God. If you will just step aside and start living your own life to the fullest, some day you will hear stories of how bad things have been for the two of them. You don’t see it right now – you assume that things are good for them. I know for a fact that they are not.
Dr Phil says “the best revenge you can get, is to have a life that is well lived” and that is 100% true. Get out there and live a good life.

Imagine for a moment that you spent the next year building houses for the poor, curing cancer, serving meals on wheels, singing in the church choir, etc. And then an old friend bumps into your WxH and his OW at the mall and says “Hey, have you heard what Cat has been up to? Wow, I didn’t realize she was capable of all that!!” and meanwhile, WxH and Ow have just been fighting because she wants another diamond ring, but he won’t give it to her, and now he is looking at her and thinking “why couldn’t you be more like her?” Doesn’t that sound like the best revenge possible?

I know that is an extreme example, but I think you get the point. There is nothing honorable about his life right now. If you see an old friend, you know that you are single, but at least you did not dump your H for an OM. When he sees an old friend, he knows that has to explain who this woman is that is with him.

I used to be embarrassed about being divorced. Divorce is unheard of in my family as well. Especially at church – I would sit in my seat and feel like I had a neon sign above my head. But I have come to realize I was not the only divorced woman in that church, not by far. In fact, there is a beautiful single mom at my church now, with 2 sons in college. She is a professor at a Christian University, very active at church, very talented. I knew that she had no H – but assumed that her H had died. She stood up in church one-day to tell the story of how her former H, who was a Pastor, left her for another woman when her boys were young! I was SHOCKED! She is gorgeous. Her ex must look at her now and have such regret. So there I was, feeling like a single mom was something to be ashamed of. But I would have never told that woman that she should be ashamed of herself. She has nothing to be ashamed of. So why do I think so much less of myself?

You have so much to offer to other single women. There is someone in your circle of influence right now, who has just gone through D day, and could benefit from your wisdom. But you need to get yourself out there, meeting other women, getting involved in activites where other women are, and making yourself available to help. Just like I am doing for you, right now.

You do not need to give up everything you used to have. You just need to decide what you want to focus on, and what is not such a big deal. For me, I wanted to be able to travel. So I spent less money on clothes, and dinners out, so that I had money available to travel. And I stayed in cheaper hotels, so I could travel more often. But your priority may be different, so cut back in other areas, in order to fill your own personal desire. Get the kids involved. Explain to them that you won’t be buying “A” because you are saving for “B”.

It sounds like you may need to sell your house. If so, get on with it. You can still live in a very nice place, it just might be smaller. Start looking around. This may be just the boost you need to start over.

No, there is no way he would have taken me back after all I put him through.

Besides by the time I unfogged our divorce was final anyway.

It's normal to feel cheated and resentment. You were there for X years and helped exH's career and then you get the short end of the stick and have to struggle financially. It's not fair and you have every right to be angry.


I don't understand why you pretend with DS that his father is a great guy. You don't have to bash exH to death but why not be honest with your son? Perhaps continuing the act that he is a good dad or good person is contributing to your anger.

I think this is a big part of it because you've mentioned the financial aspect a couple of times. There is nothing wrong with the way you feel at all- it's just part of the grieving process.

WOF,

You do seem to "get" me and I appreciate your posts. What you say is pretty much what I feel.

My IC just told me yesterday, that I do not know what their life is like. I "assume" it is a bed of roses, but she said it could very well be a bed of thorns.

But then why did he M her if it would be so much of a struggle for him to constantly have to justify it to others. Why not just continue living with her?!

Yes, ExH did not tell my DS yet about his M. He said he did not want things to change between him and DS. So then he was never going to tell him?! He never told me either. I found out by accident. He's been M'd for several months. Did he have to take his ring off every time he visited my DS, so DS wouldn't notice he was M'd then?

I tried to make myself more appealing for ExH when he would come over to get DS for visits, so he would see what I had over the OW and would miss that. OW is quite large!

I lost weight, dressed to the 9's when I knew he was coming, but obviously it didn't matter. He may have thought why OW couldn't be more like me, but he never acted on it.

I guess I don't want to sell my house, even though I am having a hard time with it, because I would define that as failing. That that was just one more thing that ExH did to me. I had to sell my house because of him.

I'm working with my lender to see if I can try and change the mortgage or whatever. DS has alot of friends here and I would hate to uproot him now. He's been through so much.

I will tell you though, that if I did not have kids, I would have left this state long ago, just to get away from ExH and OW.

Catgirl - All of my dreams, and all of our plans were lost with the affair. And I did a good bit of feeling sorry for myself and grieving. However I was not willing for THEM to continue ruining my life.

This is going to sound strange, but that's why I wish he were dead. I would complete my grieving process once and for all, and go on. Never to have to worry about him again!

Believer,

You are SO much stronger than I ever will be!

You don't have to move far away, but I think selling the house would help. You can get something smaller and more affordable and it will not be haunted by memories of your ex. You wouldn't be selling it BECAUSE of him, you would be selling it FOR yourself. It's time to start taking action with your life.

FWIW, I am having trouble with my house. Not the finances but due to it's age and size, I have trouble maintaining it. I am actually meeting with a real estate agent tonight to get everything ready. The sign will go on the lawn next week. I have agonized over this for months but now that the moment is getting closer, I'm begining to realize certain things. One of these is that I'm actually making a major decision BY MYSELF!!! I'm also taking care of all the arrangements BY MYSELF!!! I did a whole bunch of painting and minor repairs BY MYSELF!!! I hired contractors and enlisted the help of friends to do the harder stuff BY MYSELF!!! I phoned the real estate guy BY MYSELF!!! It's pretty empowering - not only do I have the ability to make these decisions and make this happen, I have control over my future now! I can actually begin to form my own goals and work towards them. Don't get me wrong, I still grieve my former future goals and life that might have been. But my new life now - it's not so bad. And it's getting better. I do believe that once I leave this house I'll escape those ghosts forever.

--Catgirl I just read your post here and had tears in my eyes....I feel like you do at times as my WH also made very,very good money...OP had nothing.We battled and slowly made our way up the ladder.Just as we were financially very well-off,the affair started....Ok he lost his job,so did OW,but now his starting his own business with OP..this was our dream.....OP and her 3 boys will benefit etc...

BUT....

I tell myself over and over again,I can lift my head up high..my boys have more respect for me...friends have remained friends with ME....
There are so many more important aspects of life and who you are as a person.....

Yes,money makes a lot of problems go away but it can't take the place of a lot of things...

FINALLY,saved the best for last.....God will take good care of YOU and He will take revenge on THEM......this is repeated over and over in Scripture..
I truely believe it ....don't let THEM take your power away from you and make you into a sad and bitter person....I know its easier said then done,its as if it goes against our human nature..but believe me its the way we must strive to be.....

I battle with this constantly myself .....

EGGGGGGGZACTLY!! Amen to THAT, Sister!!

Catgirl,

You have to purge him from your soul. Is it hard? Heck yeah!! But it IS something that CAN be done. Once you say it out loud and make it real, you can start taking steps in your heart and mind to do just that.

Say it everyday. When mind-movies start to get to you, CHANGE THE CHANNEL!!

Don't let those *ssholes get the best of you!! Then THEY WIN!! We simply cannot have that!!!

Once you start actively purging him from your soul, things will get a LOT better. And better and better with each day that passes...until the thought of them is just that: a thought. With no rising BP or pulse rate.

YOU CAN DO THIS!!

C'mon, Lady!!!

Us gals gotta stick together!! (No offense, Men. I'm talking about all the "other" men--the WS's, etc.)

Take care, Girl!!

Charlotte

Tabby,

I have battled moving many times. I thought a fresh start would be good. The thing is, I like where I live and so does my son. If I ever were to move, it would be out of my state. It's getting too expensive to live here, no matter where I go, unless I want to live in the ghetto!

I filed bankruptcy, so getting a mortgage is slim to none. I've got pets, so getting apts. are limited.

I have been doing things that ExH used to do and it IS empowering . I fixed the toilet a few weeks ago. I mean took the whole tank off and eveything! What a nightmare, but that used to be ExH's job. All repairs, yardwork was his. Now I do it.

I don't know, some days I think starting new in a whole new state is good, other times I don't want to show him that he wins.

My luck him and OW would buy the house!!

I know I have to try and "change the channel" like you say, but you hit the nail on the head...

I GRIEVE THE LIFE I SHOULD/COULD HAVE HAD WITH HIM!!!!

Believer,

I didn't want to t/j another post, but I saw you say something to another poster that hits home.

You said that your ExH destroyed your family etc, etc, yet he still thinks OW is a good person.

This is one of the demons that I am fighting.

ExH destroyed my family, yet he justified his A by marrying her!

He's never apologized to me or my kids, has never shown one ounce of remorse even though he knows DS is having a lot of emotional problems because of the D. Never even admitted he had an A!

He just doesn't get it, and I doubt he ever will...

Cat,

We've all grieved the loss of our M's. Every BS on here who is either D'd or in Plan B has grieved as you do. And we've all done it in our own time. Some just take longer than others.

I'm still there. After 35 years of M, it doesn't go away, and will never go away completely, but I'm learning to live with it. I loved being M. I loved my big house, my yard, my lifestyle, the way we just had unspoken actions that allowed us to live together in harmony over the years, the daily routine of talking about the day, deciding whether to eat in or go out, designing how we were going to remodel the kitchen, going to Home Depot to pick out paint, and on and on. I loved the companionship. And I miss all of that terribly.

But you know what? I now realize that we really didn't know each other at all. We didn't fight or argue, but we never really did POJA either. We each just kind of went along with what the other did or wanted. We never really discussed our inner most thoughts, feelings, desires, etc. Our M was really more like a well oiled working machine. That's not all bad mind you, but the intimacy really wasn't there. I guess sometimes you just fall into routines.

Anyway, not sure exactly where I'm going with this other than to say that I know how you feel, but really take an objective look at the M and maybe you'll find that it wasn't what you thought it was.

I'm sure that like me, you are sorry that you didn't get the chance to make it into the MB M that we know it could be, and we'll always regret that. At least we know how the next relationship can be.

For me, I did move and don't really regret it. When we sold the house, WH finally said that he didn't want to be M anymore and I figured he would go to OPs state with her. At that point, I knew that I needed new surroundings and couldn't be in the old area with all of the daily triggers. I moved about 30 mi away into a really cute condo. It was good therapy to work on decorating, etc. I've also learned to do some mechanical stuff, but I have a long way to go.

So maybe new surroundings would do you good. It may help get you out of the rut.

One other thing. My cousin, who I haven't talked to in a few years called today. He heard about WH from my brother and wanted to know how I was doing. His W of 25 years left him the day his 3rd child graduated from college, and he was devestated at the time. Anyway, we talked about my sitch a little, and how he was shocked etc. He said, "Well, there's no love like a new love. Problem is when the new love becomes the old love you have the same issues. Too many guys want to chase after the new love." The new love will eventually wear down Cat. And they will be faced with the all of the same problems that they both tried to get away from, only when that happens they'll have ex-spouses, step kids, child support, and the fact that they both have to be suspicious of the other because the A will always be on both foreheads.

Get out there and try a few dates. If nothing else other than to find new friends and keep yourself occupied.

Thanks Chai,

I do believe that if issues were not resolved prior to this new M, then they will have the same issues that they had in the other M.

Although, with them, there are no kids...yet, and I think that was a big issue when he was with me.

Plus I think they are going to try REALLY hard to make this work, if not for just the fact to prove everyone wrong that said it never would last!

I remember a year after he was livng with her and we were going through the D, I asked him if this was what he wanted...to get D'd.

He told me that he was happy with her, there was no conflict in a year, and he liked that. (we had been having problems with DD at he time I believe he started his A, and we were arguing alot...aka conflict)

But... IC is MAKING me go to this singles dance this weekend.

It is the last thing I want to do, but made me promise that I would at least go for 1 hour. If I don't like it, then I can leave.

We'll see...

Just remember that no M is perfect, and each has proven that they would rather run to someone else than work on the problems.

Anyway, the outing is a good idea. Go and try to have some fun.

WooHoo!!! I've had to do some interesting repairs also including the toilet (which I eventually had to replace but for that I got a friend to do it).

If you can't help, try renovating. Nothing complicated or expensive - start with paint. In fact, start in the bedroom. First, buy new linens. Do this immediately - find something you like and don't worry about how it will match. Then go to the paint store. But don't just buy any old paint. Find some interesting faux finish that will not only change the look of your room, but will provide an artistic challenge. I did this in the bathroom (same one as the busted toilet). It took a long time - especially agonizing over the colours etc. But it is so cool now.

Another thing, do something that he would either not have approved of or wasn't interested in. I have a room in my basement where we used to store boxes and junk. I had always wanted to clean it out and put a ping pong table in there. He always said it was too small for a ping pong table so it remained a junk room. Last summer, I went through all the boxes, threw tons of stuff out, organized the rest and bought a cheap ping pong table. I assembled it myself and guess what - it fits just fine!!! Unfortunately I'm going to have to get rid of it when I move, but the pride I felt at doing it was SO worth it! And even though I never got to say it, the "I told you so" factor was definitely there!!!


This is exactly what you are doing. And you will break it down into all it's components and grieve each little thing separately. But it's important to replace each of these components as you go. The home repairs for example - you grieve the loss of someone who knows how to do it - but replace that with your own knowledge of what to do.

You will make it. It takes time, but you will get there. Go to these dances. You are clearly not ready to date yet but that doesn't mean you are under house arrest. Go to anything you can - even if it doesn't seem all that appealing to you at first. This is your chance to try things you never did before.

Thanks Tabby,

I did do a bit of redecorating right after I filed for D. Changed my bedroom around, got new living room lamps etc.

Just went out today and bought some new paint. I love to paint, so I'm going to actually paint all the rooms in the house. One at a time of course. They haven't been painted in quite awhile and I've decided to do that.

That should keep me busy I guess!

If you like painting, try something different. I did a faux finish in my bathroom. I was SO nervous about it - mixing colours and glazes and stuff. But it turned out well and it was actually really fun. Before I put the stuff on the walls, I got a bunch of paint samples and tried different things on a giant piece of cardboard (I broke down a box and did something a little different on each square). I actually saved my cardboard sample as it is really cool and artistic looking. Not quite sure what I'm going to do with it but I'm not ready to throw it out either!

I was thinking of doing that sponge painting. My aunt did that to her bathroom and it came out good. Right now I just bought plain old paint. We'll see if I'm in the mood to get creative!

Having a bad day today, so not much into doing anything.

ExH just called.

He will be taking DS roller skating on Thursday to tell him about his M.

Finally!
He's only been married now for several months!

Question...how do I handle this?

I'm not sure what he will say to DS, but I know DS will keep his feelings inside even though he might be upset or whatever. I don't think he likes OW, but he has never menioned anything to me. As I said he keeps it all in. Even IC for him never worked. He won't open up and then takes it out on me!

I think he will be hurt that ExH kept this news from him for all these months, but I'm sure ExH will have a reason for him as to why.

Any advice?

anyone?

How old is DS? Are you thinking of telling him first? It might not be a bad idea. You don't owe your ex any loyalty but you do owe it to your son. This way you can deal with his reaction personally and give him a chance to put on a brave face for the actual ordeal.

I agree with Tabby that you might want to tell him first. But I would tell DS that he's doesn't have to be phoney and act happy if he's not and he doesn't have to act a certain way because of you either cat. Perhaps your son says so little because he doesn't want either of his parents to be mad with him and appear to be taking sides. Let him know you are there if he wants to talk.

A brave face does not equal acting happy. It's more about maintaining composure and not overreacting in a way you might be embarrassed about later. This could be important depending on DS's age - for example if he's in the awkward teen phase.

He's 10.

I spoke with my IC this morning. IC thought it would be best for ExH to tell him as it's his deal.

IC feels ExH should have told him "before" he got mariried, not months later. Now DS will see that as a betrayal.

DS keeps everything inside, always has, then he acts out on me.

IC says that's because I'm here and he knows I'm a sure thing, I won't leave him like ExH did.

I do agree with you in that he probably doesn't say much in that he doesn't want to take sides.

You don't know how much I want to tell him not to like OW, that she destroyed his family and is a wh$re! Of course I won't but it's sooooo tempting.

Why not? He probably already does hate her. It's important he acknowledge his feelings. And you yours. He just needs to be taught not to act out on them. But he has a right to own what he feels. Just like you and I.

Went through this with DS when he was 10, and WW left for six months (trying to get OM to leave his wife for her.) It is very hard.

Yes, it is exWH's news to tell. However, your DS could also view your failure to tell him as a betrayal as well since you ar privy to this information. You are his mom and know best.

Have you explained to him that the divorce was a result of adultery? There are threads upon threads on this forum about this and the experts agree that children do best when they know the truth. Children instinctively blame themselves for divorce and it's not enough to simply tell them it wasn't their fault. They need the truth. They need the opportunity to be angry with the adulterous parent. And they need to know that it's ok to be angry with someone and still love them. Armed with the truth, they can heal from the damage and grow. Shielded from it and their scars will never heal and will affect them the rest of their lives. Where's MelodyLane - she has a pile of links to great artlicles on this.

I told my kids the truth. That OW is the reason we're divorced. We also talked about how God views their "relationship."

I don't regret it at all. It hurt, but they are better off knowing the truth. Knowing that it is not them. And knowing that OW isn't this nice person. My ex actually thought the kids would be happy to know that he's happy. My kids needed me to tell them that it's okay for them to not be happy for their dad. And that what he's doing is not right, but that they can still love and pray for him.

ExH is the type of person that avoids conflict. I was the one that had to tell DS that ExH wasn't come back home when he left us, as he has told him he would. He's a coward.

That's why in part I wanted him to have to tell DS himself. I KNOW he was hoping I would, as that's how I was, I always did the dirty stuff. But it's about time ExH grew a set of b@lls and acted like a father!

Well, ExH was supposed to take DS roller skating tomorrow. He decided he had plans, so he took him tonight instead.

I had some words with ExH when he came to get DS. Told him he should have told him months ago, not after the fact. He said he didn't think it would have mattered. I told him that DS deserved better than a POS father like him.

Yes, he hopes that DS will see how happy he is and accept OW. I'm sure ExH drilled it into DS's head how OW is a "nice" person, to give her a chance etc. I'm sure they'll buy his love with gifts too in the future so DS will like her.

She's not even old enough to be DS's stepmother!!!!

Well DS just got home.

I asked him how skating was. He said it was fine. I asked him if his father told him anything. He looked at me. He knew what I was referring to. I asked him agian. He said yes. I asked him if he was sad. He said no. I asked him if he was happy he said he didn't know. I did a big no no I guess, and told him that OW will NEVER be his mother no matter what EXh tells him. I just think that I'm saying one thing, ExH is saying another and he doesn't know which end is up! I told him that I am here to talk if he wants to, and he went to his room.

I wanted to ask him what exactly ExH said to him, but I don't want to push it. He just won't open up to me or an IC. We've been to 2 IC's already and they both said he won't say anything. Will talk about everything else, except the D and his father.

He knows OW is the cause of the D. I made that VERY clear to him and explained what adultery meant, the commandments etc.

I also told him that OW was not a very nice person to pursue a married man with kids while she was married herself.

DS knew ExH was living with OW for almost 3 years, so I think he has an understanding of it all, for his age at least.

I have a teen DD who does not talk to her father because of the A. Well actually he pretty much disowned her...long story. She has no problems calling OW a wh$re in front of DS. I tell her not to, but she says that what she is and she ruined our family. She also calls ExH choice words too, in front of DS and says he needs to know what kind of father he has.

I told her hopefully he will find out in time...

Hi catgirl-

As a mom of two DS's (16 and 20 now) I can tell you that your DS most likely won't tell you a lot about what he and his dad talk about. It isn't necessarily because he is keeping it in or away from you, it's just that boys don't tend to be as relational as we women-folk. What I mean is, they aren't going to tell you everything that was said, because they didn't store away everything like a girl would. They also won't tell you how they felt about it because they aren't always sure how they feel-or how to put it into words.

So, when your DS said he didn't know how he felt-he really didn't.

My DS16 isn't one who has a lot to say about anything. I found that it helped him if I verbalized what I thought he might be feeling and then allowed him to agree with me or not. I also did it when we weren't face to face. For some reason boys respond better when they are "doing" something, even if it's sitting in the passenger seat of the car while you are driving.

Also, boys don't like to process a whole lot of emotional or verbal stuff at one time. So, I find it best to stick to one thing at a time. Let them process it and then, get back to them while they are doing something-making models, cleaning the car, etc.

Another thing about boys, it doesn't matter how old they are, they want to protect their mom. When my OS found out why his dad left, he called his dad and let my XH have it-telling him to "man up". He was 17 at the time .

That's what I think this response was about He doesn't want you to worry about him. That's how he is trying to "protect" you.

Please remember also, that when you are berating your XH, you are also talking badly about his dad. Don't worry about losing his loyalty. He knows the truth. Kids usually take their feelings out on the parent they feel safest with. It's okay to call him on it. I have to do that with DS 16 from time to time as well.

Catgirl:

We are in the same boat. My xWW married her OM a year ago. The OM is 17+ years older and is now on his 4th M. Yes, you heard that right. He cheated on all 3 of his previous wives and married each of the 3 succeeding affair partners.

The most recent M took place within days of his 3rd D being finalized...wayward OM & xWW both D'd their respective spouses to be together (I strongly suspect that some ultimatims/quid pro quo's flew back and forth to make that happen as they announced their "engagement" only a week before my xWW even FILED against me).

Yes, affair-marriages (A-Ms) fail ~90% within 10 years and I have already heard via the grapevine that "the honeymoon is over" and that my xWW is "unhappy"...she will of course deny that till the end of the earth at this point.

It hurts us both none the less, but the odds of success are slim....

I feel the same way...I know I shouldn't be vindictive, but one can't help wanting them to suffer like we did and not see "cheaters prosper"...

Catgirl,

Interesting point--Dr. Pittman ("Private Lies", excellent book) discusses this VERY subject [affair-marriages(AM)] in detail. Read it. To summarize:

AM fail 75% within 5 yrs, 90% within 10

AM often fail early on (within the first few years)

He lists 12 common "obstacles" that cause this--my xWW's AM have virtually ALL of them, as does your xWH's AM

It is statistically MORE LIKELY that a WS will back with their original S within 5yrs than still with their AM spouse.

The xWS ALMOST ALWAYS contacts the xBS to seek or "feel out" reconciliation at some point (although the xBS may not recognize the effort for what it is at the time)

He lists ~5 elements that, if enacted correctly by the AM partners, seem to increase the AM's chance of long-term "success" [again, my xWW's AM did at best 1 of them; I'm sure that applies to your xWH's sitch as well]

The odds of the original M (xBS/xWS) reconciling are inversely proportional to the length of time the A/AM continues

The above is ALMOST ALWAYS because the xBS rejects the xWS (see below), not because the xWS is "happy & fulfilled" [see Believer here on MB]

Whatever happens with the AM, the xBS (after a healing period) usually ends up with a "better life" in the long-run than the xWS

The xBS "makes a good new life" and "heals and moves on" (mentally/socially/romantically), the AM disintegrates/divorces and the xWS re-contacts the xBS --- remarkably these events seem to eerily occur at about the same time


Here is an excerpt from Dr. Pittman (article in "Psychology Today"):

"Romantic Infidelity

Surely the craziest and most destructive form of infidelity is the temporary insanity of falling in love. You do this, not when you meet somebody wonderful (wonderful people don't screw around with married people) but when you are going through a crisis in your own life, can't continue living your life, and aren't quite ready for suicide yet. An affair with someone grossly inappropriate—someone decades younger or older, someone dependent or dominating, someone with problems even bigger than your own—is so crazily stimulating that it's like a drug that can lift you out of your depression and enable you to feel things again. Of course, between moments of ecstasy, you are more depressed, increasingly alone and alienated in your life, and increasingly hooked on the affair partner. Ideal romance partners are damsels or "dumsels" in distress, people without a life but with a lot of problems, people with bad reality testing and little concern with understanding reality better.

Romantic affairs lead to a great many divorces, suicides, homicides, heart attacks, and strokes, but not to very many successful remarriages. No matter how many sacrifices you make to keep the love alive, no matter how many sacrifices your family and children make for this crazy relationship, it will gradually burn itself out when there is nothing more to sacrifice to it. Then you must face not only the wreckage of several lives, but the original depression from which the affair was an insane flight into escape."

This is definitely true:

AM partners LIE like crazy during their A. They lie to the BS(s), they lie to their families/friends, and the LIE TO EACH OTHER. The pattern continues in the AM... Truth WINS, truth LIVES, and truth is always eventually REVEALED. The AM partners will discover in time the lies they each have told each other.

AM partners never have the same level of TRUST in each other that they had in their original M(s). They KNOW that they cheated on/with others to be together and they tend to become quickly deceptive, demanding, and suspicious of each other.

AM partner(s) have unresolved ISSUES from their abandoned M(s). Few deal with them on their own, most just expect that their "in love/soulmate" feelings will carry them through and be there forever...completely fallacious

AM partner(s) have buried GUILT for what they have done and the hurt they have caused. "The greater the denial and self-deception by the WS, the greater the guilt burden they are supressing."

AM partners have unrealistic EXPECTATIONS that their new OP/AM will make it all "go away forever" and "be so much better than before"...this inevitably leads to DISAPPOINTMENT with their AM.

AM partner(s) have STUBBORNNESS & PRIDE which got them to the point they are now. "Pride commeth before the fall..." Remaining in an unhappy AM out of pride is a truly miserable experience.

An AM is a "marriage" LEGALLY ONLY. Morally, it is ongoing adultery...God (or whatever higher power one subscribes to) does not smile and will not bless such a union.

'Karma is a B***H'
'What goes around, comes around'
'What ye sow, so shall ye also reap'

PICK ONE!

What are these?



And these?

[From "Private Lies: Infidelity and the Betrayal of Intimacy" by Dr. Frank Pittman, chapter 13]
1) Intervention of Reality
2) Guilt
3) Disparity of Sacrifice
4) Expectations
5) General distrust of marriage
6) Distrust of the co-affairee
7) Divide loyalties
8) The nature of infidels
9) The nature of affairees
10) Romance
11) Scapegoating of cuckolds (BSs)
12) Unshared history

In my sitch, I would say all but #5 are at play to some extent in my xWW's AM. (I can't possibly describe each of them in detail w/o writing a book myself...read it)



And these?

[/quote]

I stand corrected--there are 7(same chapter):
1) The original M(s) were truly awful [not just in fog-speak, but truly awful]
2) The AM partners are not serial cheaters and gave considerable time and thought to what they were doing. They have a shared history of sexual exclusivity outside of the one A.
3) The AM partners had known each other for while before becoming involved...when it did become romantic, there was no sense of guilt or feelings of having cheated. [sounds silly, I know, but thet were "upfront" right away]
4) The AM partners were NOT romantics who followed their feelings. They saw themselves as making rational, thought-out decisions about their lives together. [not just getting M because "we are in love"]
5) The partners felt guilt and shame for the marital breakup(s), had true "justification", and did NOT scapegoat the betrayed(s). they did not leave their M's frivolously [by "justification" (which I don't agree with in any way) he means the ex was a massive abuser or philanderer]
6) The partners took considerable time to grieve over their D's, did not rush into a new M but let reality set in beforehand.
7) The partners took pains to win the support/understanding of family & children.


Again, in my xWW's sitch (she cheated with and later M a married OM), I would say a few of these apply partially and NONE apply completely:
1) Not at all in either case
2) OM is on his 4th M and cheated on all 3 xW's...marrying each succeeding affair partner in turn
3) Yes, they knew each other at work for 1-2 years before, but they both lied extensively and felt guilty
4) My xWW is definitely a romantic, OM I don't know
5) They both felt guilt but both have extensively scapegoated and utterly mistreated the BSs
6) Nope...my xWW filed vs. me immediately after he proposed and they got M literally before the ink was dry on both D's
7) My xWW's older sisters (whom she rarely sees--out of state) went along & she has some friends who did as well. OM's family is distant and uninvolved; his kids hate them both now.


There 'ya have it!

SDCWman,

Yeah we are in the same boat, but my ExH's W was only M'd once before.

They meet 2 of the criteria for the AM lasting, that I know of. They knew each other for a few years prior to getting M'd. Lived together over 2 years, and they weren't serial cheaters.

I know everyone says that the odds are against them, but somehow I just think they will do all they can to make it work, just so people won't say I told you so. Plus they lived together over 2 years. They dealt with reality...paying bills etc. They should know what living together is all about by now.

I guess the hardest part for me is accepting that he is M'd. I saw him last week when he came to get DS for visitation. He had on a wedding ring. Now of course I knew he was M'd, but I guess seeing that made it real.

It hurt to see another's woman's ring on his finger where my ring was for 20 years!

I don't know how his M is. He will never tell me and I don't know anyone that is in contact with him to tell me.

I know I shouldn't even care, but I so want this M to fail. I want him to hurt, like he hurt me and my kids.

My IC keeps telling me to use all that energy on me, but I still am struggling with the fact that he has someone to sleep with everynight and I don't etc. etc.

He had no problem moving on and feeling nothing for me and getting remarried, and I can't deal with that I guess.

After all those years with me how can he just marry this wh$re!?

I guess this is more of a vent, sorry. Just with the holidays approaching and me knowing he'll be sharing them with her again, just is tough.

Cat

Was she (the OW) married as well? Did they co-cheat?


I have no doubt of that in both of our situations. I also have no doubt that both AMs will fail anyway.


Ditto...I have had the exact same visuals.


Again, I feel the EXACT SAME WAY.


Again, broken record. Same for me.


We must be living parallel but opposite-sex lives. I wonder how the heck my xWW could fall for, marry, and stay loyal to a man who has betrayed 3 prior xW's, is an uneducated loser, 17 yrs older, short, fat, and utterly ignores & mistreats his 2 kids (not to mentioned long ago abandoned his eldest who will never talk to him again). What kind of "husband & father of the year" material does she see there???? How is that possible?

Catgirl, you are one of the few people I have met on these boards who I truly identify with in terms of our situations. I hope we can support each other.

SDCW
MP2007@cox.net

SD,

Yes, she was married at the time she and my ExH were having the A. Her H was clueless as was I. They were only M'd a few years though. He was 2 years older than her.

ExH has NEVER admitted he even had an A. At least your ExW showed some remorse. My ExH still claims they were "just friends" and while they were living together while he was M'd to me, he claimed she slept on the couch and they were roomies.

I pray you are right in that the AM fails. They've only been M'd 6 mos. now, so it's still recent, but I guess the question I have is... they lived together almost 3 years. He moved outog here and moved her in. That was like a M. They dealt with all the household stuff. So why will the M suddenly fall apart now? Reality set in months ago!

It might and it might not. Same with my WH-Gray and Slag.

Don't waste your time on it. Let Karma take its course. It could happen in other ways.

Charlotte

My ex thought he was in the 3% until the affair ended. Granted, it ended before they married, but the affair did last for almost 4 years.

But I'm with the counselor, move on.

100% of affairees think they are in the 3%.

CG:

I was clueless too. Despite being warned I didn't believe it or want to believe it, sooooo out-of-character for the girl I adored, so I trusted and believed her lies and evasions and cover-ups. There were, in retrospect, a hundred red flags--like why she insisted one day I write her a new BCP prescription (I'm an MD) when we weren't having sex. I didn't find out there was OM until after she filed. She wouldn't talk to me or answer her phone. I got her to call me by cancelling her email account (I had the "master" password). She called me pissed off that night. I told her "I know about you and OM". She was finally caught and saud that they were "friends". Really, I said "than why were you two making out last month in public" (a mutual acquaintance saw them). WW said "we have been friends a while, it just became a 'relationship' a few weeks ago -- after I decided to file. It has nothing to do with us not working out." Like an idiot, I almost believed that too...

That was my initial "admission" from her. That came after a grueling 6 month period of torture for me (we had separated against my will) in which I did EVERYTHING MAN COULD DO to show her how much I loved her, how sorry I was for my own mistakes, and how utterly devoted I was to reconciling our marriage (the details of which could fill pages). I now understand that she was fence-sitting the entire time and her occasional tender and sweet expressions ("I miss you!", "I love you and always will", etc.) were probably just to keep me around while she fleshed out the R with OM or were said at times when they were on the outs, she was wallowing in guilt, or they were unable to see each other. I'm sure my WW took the (obviously dishonest and insincere) "failure" of counseling and seminars as a "sign" that it was Ok to leave her M for the A. I'm also sure that their engagement "announcement" 2 weeks prior to her filing had something to do with it as well.

Many months later she de facto "admitted" that her A pre-dated her decision to file when I asked her point blank and she choked up and couldn't answer...then saying "you can believe what you want". She has NEVER admitted (and in fact still denies) the facts:
The A began LONG before we even S
The A was the reason OM's wife left him
The A is the reason OM's kids hate her
The A was the primary (by far) motivation for her to file
The A was sexual long before she "made her decision"
The A was the reason she was insincere and half-hearted in response to my reconciliation efforts
The A was the reason I found OM's clothes in our vacation house
The A was the reason she was bawling her eyes off in church while we were S (she even took her completely irreligious OM with her--the hypocrisy of 2 active married co-adulterers going to chuch together, one just gapes!)
on and on....

So, I have never received anything approaching a real admission. Only a serious of grudgingly defensive and inaccurate concessions as little details have become known. As for apologies, I have heard "I'm sorry you are hurt" and "I'm sorry for so many things" without a mention of WHAT THOSE "THINGS" ARE. It means very little without sincerity and complete honesty as I am sure you can appreciate.

More later...

SD,

Do you have a thread here?

CL:

No, I do not have any active topics of my own to discuss or request input on at present. Why?

SD,

Just wondered what your story was, whether you were trying to recover, etc.

My story is that I found MB way too late in my situation. I relied on "traditional" methods (counseling, talking, etc.) when my M was in crisis and completely missed the destructive and secret role A's often play in the process. I was definitely in the "BS fog" as Catgirl was too. I fell for all the WS fog lines and was flattened by the 18 wheeler I somehow never saw barrelling down upon me. [Much of what I later found out came from making contact with the OM's BW who was much closer to the situation and suspected things long before I did].

As you can probably tell by now, my (formerly wonderful) xWW was caught up in romantic A with a POS married OM. She married him within days of the decrees being finalized. MB has taught me a great deal--too late for me but hopefully helpful to others.

There is nothing to recover (besides myself of course)...my xWW remains M to her OM and we had ZERO CONTACT for well over a year with one phone call excepted. She has made some positive statements (call it a mildly clear break in the fog) but for the most part remains lost in misplaced loyalty, denials, avoidance, irresponsibility, scapegoating, and convincing herself that "God changes people and God changes things".

Translation:

"I know OM is a POS with a very shady recent and distant past, but he is and will be different with me" and ...

"I know what I did goes against everything I believe in and how I was raised, but I fell in love and that makes it ok in God's eyes"


......was mostly just commiserating with Catgirl

Well sorry you are here. I didn't realize that your WW M the POSOM. I thought it was just an engagement.

I found MB a little too late too. Welcome to the club that admits members by force. None of us want to be here but we had no choice in the matter. The good thing is that there is great support here....

Sorry about your story SDCWoman. I'm also here with no hope (or desire) for marital recovery but I do find it helps. My WstbxH has been living with his OW since d-day, they've bought a house together and there's no sign of any trouble (though there could be but I'd never know). They appear to be potential 3% candidates, but I do know she is a serial cheater so if I were to gamble on the situation, I'd give them about 5 years instead of 2. There are many open wounds from adultery and they need time to heal.

I find many of the MB marital recovery techniques help with personal recovery. I'm a huge fan of Plan B - at least the darkness part of it. It actually went against my natural "grain" in the sense that I had some idea that maybe if we could just be "friends" it would be ok and it was hard to imagine him not being in my life at all. But it was so horrible - he was outright cruel to me. I did what Plan B'ers do - with the exception of writing a letter. I simply broke off contact. Now I virtually never see him and life is much better when I don't.

Having said that, I just saw him this weekend for the first time in 3 months. He was at my house helping DS move his stuff out (I just sold my house and DS was taking some furniture, WstbxH has a pickup truck). We managed to be civil to each other but honestly there was less conversation than if he'd been a hired mover. He didn't even ask me where I was moving to.

Tabby:

Thank you. We are here at MB.com for similar reasons. You and Catgirl (& perhaps a few others) are the only ones I have "met" here who seem to be in similar straights...with WSs/xWSs who seem to be in the "3% club".

We share a great many "open wounds" and that description fits perfectly. [I am grateful that xWW and I had no kids together so at least I am spared the pain of having to co-parent with someone I don't recognize anymore as the wonderful, loving, devoted person I once knew. Like yourself, it was (and sometimes still is) hard for me for me to imagine my life without her. I can understand your use of "cruel" as a descriptor of your WH...esp. if you mean total failure to accept responsibility for and repent of the pain and destruction their actions have caused so many people, most notably my family (the only REAL family she has ever known), OM's xW (BW #3 for him), his kids, and ME.

I can completely identify with the feeling of "alien abduction" when it comes to my xWW. All of this is so completely out-of-character for her...the betrayal, the deceptions, the manipulations, the homewrecking, the immorality, the destruction of lives (xBSs on both sides AND OM's kids)...heck, she used to berate and sharply criticize those we met who even flirted with a member of the opoosite sex while married!

As for "trouble" in her A relationship, I have only tiny bits of evidence. 6 mos ago I heard via the grapevine (friend of a friend who knows) that she was "unhappy" and complaining "the honeymoon is over." I have been dark for a long time (she has too) with the exception of a short burst this summer. I received a past due collection notice on a bill of hers at my (our former) house. Relunctantly, I texted her about it and we got into a brief text convo. The bill issue was quickly dispensed with (had already been resolved by her) and w/o warning she texted "I will call you tomorrow". She had not placed a call to me in over a year at that point. Strange...(I had no idea of wwhat the status of her & OM were at the time):

I dreaded the call—the awkward discomfort, the aloof coldness I anticipated and experienced so many times in the past, etc. It started out pleasant small talk (she always seems to be sincerely curious at to what I'm up to and to how my family is) and then she proceeded to ask about my little brother’s recent wedding. I was taken back—told her it was fun, I was proud of him, love my new sister-in-law, and asked “how do you even know about that?” (it was planned and scheduled well after she had fled the coop) Her tone became softer and tender: “Honey, I have ways of hearing about you and keep track of you…I was going to send something but did not know how it would be received.” She then asked about my elderly grandfather (they had loved each other very much—my xW came from a dysfunctional household and always treasured the loving acceptance she found in my family) and tearfully said “I think of him & them all the time”. The topic turned to “us” and our past (dangerous I know…it just happened) and it was totally different than it had been for 2 years. The “old, sweet her” seemed to re-emerge. I was astounded by how emotionally vulnerable and remorseful she was. She choked up many times telling me that she had been foolishly “hard-headed and I should have believed you”, “I am so sorry I took you for granted, too—you are a wonderful man”, “I am so sorry for not communicating better” and “what can I do for your hurts???” I was blown away—I told her that I wouldn’t tell her what to do—she had to decide that on her own between “you and God”. She said “please don’t apologize to me anymore—you have done that more than enough—I should have listened”. I can’t possibly capture the flavor of it completely here but this went on genuinely for a good 30 minutes. I did not push or pressure her (intentionally) for specific info, additional contact, or any “future talk” about us. She then said to me “Thank you for answering your phone...I will call you again soon, sweetie…I promise!” and we hung up.


WTF???

SD,

Even though it probably doens't amount to a hill of beans, at least your ExW acknowledged what she did. My ExH has NEVER admitted he was in an A. Never even brought the OW up in convo. When I did, he said she had nothing to do with it. Like he's trying to protect her.

Unfortunately we have kids together so I have to have contact with him occasionally. When I do see him, he acts like nothing ever happened.

Before I filed for D, we had a talk about trying to save the M. I told him that he was willing to throw away all those years with me? He said he saw it more as starting a new chapter in his life.

I'm hoping because of the age difference the AM won't last, but then again I never thought the A would last either. I thought he was smarter than that.

OW likes $$$$. ExH has it. Can't he see that's what she's after?

And I too, never thought ExH could ever do what he did. He too always condoned A's etc. When people found out he cheated on me they were totally shocked. It was so out of character for him.

I have to move on. He obviously has. I am having a harder time just falling out of love then he is I guess.

I think that is the part that hurts me the most right now. Knowing that he loves someone else enough to marry them. She got what I was supposed to have forever. Am I'm sure she is gloating!

Seeing that wedding ring on his finger last week really hit me hard!

Looks like I can be added to this list.

I haven't had contact with WH since 3-17-08. I saw him at court when I technically won, but have not said one word to him in over 8 months. After nearly 30 years of some interaction it still blows me away.

I too am grateful for Plan B though in the back of my mind I wonder if that will have been the nail in the coffin of my M. Though his actions never spoke of him coming home. He just gave lip service to it.

In the beginning there was trouble... crack addict who went out using, she was selfish, putting her kids first, buying stuff for her grandkids while he had to be accountable to everything. He said she had a biting tongue on her and that he finally saw what he had been doing to me all those years and yet...

He was building a life with her based on trust, honesty and openness. It took all my strength not to laugh in his face.

He has all but abandoned the children and yet in the last month or so he seems to have kept phone contact up with YS and is trying to spend time with him and now has even called DD. My middle one, absolutely hates his dad, has lost all respect, actually so has my DD, but she holds hope out.

I absolutely will have nothing to do with this man. He is gross looking, selfish, etc.

I wish my H would come home but like all of you, we seem to be in an elite group....

Well, I'm not sure if you can call it an "acknowledgement". When I "caught" her (after being used and manipulated and lied to for months while I was fighting my A$$ of to reconcile), she admitted a "relationship" but tried to couch as though it had only started AFTER she gave her best effort to us and decided that she "couldn't give herself back to" me. That was utter bs...they had been sleeping together the whole time and had an EA (at least) ongoing well before she even S from our home. If Ihad not asked about OM, she would have never brought it up. She NEVER admitted anything honestly (only that she couldn't deny anymore when caught...when I found her OM's clothes in our vacation house, for instance, and said "thanks for F***ing your boyfriend in our bed!", she could only say "how do you know? You having me followed!"). As though hiding his clothes in the lockout closet for me never to find made it OK.

No, I have never received a true apology. Only "I'm sorry you are hurt" and "I'm sorry for so many things" (never saying what those "things" actually ARE). I know she has tremendous guilt for sure but I have never heard anything approaching REAL REMORSE and understanding for how much destruction this crazy and immoral R has caused to so many people.


Along those lines, I heard "I don't think I'm throwing anything away; I just am in a new life" (one she stole from a woman and children she didn't even know). It's amazing how they have no clue, huh?


Same boat. OM sees her as a socio-economic upgrade and sexual conquest. She is so blind about this. I have talked to other women friends--all tell me how women think with their hearts and often just wanna believe what they feel is right.


Me too. I have read that men, counter-intuitively, often take longer to fall out of love than women do. I suppose I will always love her for who she ONCE WAS. Never would have in a million years anticipated she could do the things she has done, even to herself. Time...time...I know. This past weekend, a very pretty 27 yo gal I have been seeing "casually" completely threw herself at me--I got the "look" (men know "the look" a girl gives when she is into you). I kissed her back and just walked away to drive home--I dunno what my problem is....%$#%^%##!!!!

Thanks for talking, CG, let's keep it up...
SD

Catgirl,

BTW, there is a thread here I have posted on recently called "Think I am doing everything wrong".

Some much older guy posted about his much younger affair-wife now cheating on him...shows what happens to these "3%-ers". They get what is coming to them in due time.

"What ye sow, so shall ye also reap"

SD,

Tried to find that thread you referred to, but couldn't...

Catgirl,

This is the one he's talking about:LINK

Mark

Sweetie:

I try linking it...hope this works:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubb...in=154196&Number=2162682#Post2162682