Thanks for clarifying, jayne. I hear you that a united front would be hard to identify alone, and that you've tried and it wasn't successful, that you two are still at odds at that point, in the lawyer's office, because it is that hard to identify the united front solution alone. That you are left with choices that you are not enthusiastic about. I am so glad that you are talking with Steve. Maybe there are other choices that aren't obvious to us.

I think I mentioned that I have a really close friend in a really similar situation. That this situation, where he sided with the seller instead of her, has been a huge betrayal that has rocked their marriage to the core. They are using it as a huge growth opportunity together. They have put protections for their marriage in place that they never had before. It's a process, they are still working through it.

Hi ears,

I'd be really interested in hearing more of how your friend is dealing with the issue.

I hope I don't sound "short" with you. I just have a lot going on. Thanks for thanking me for my patience LOL but I don't think of myself as being patient! So thanks for hanging in there with me.

Jayne, my friend has gotten a lot of conflicting perspective, a lot like luly's thread, where she's all over the map and the advice all makes such good sense, but is goes in such different directions. It's a long story, as you can imagine yours will be by the time you make it through to the carpet all being installed LOL. Can I share it with you when we talk? A lot is really relevant and I don't want to leave it out, whatever direction you all decide to go in.

Sure, sounds good.



BTW I think I now officially have a cold. I just hope it doesn't turn into a sinus infection. I fly tomorrow.

Hey Jayne,

how's it going?

Jayne, It seems to me you are high maintenance. It takes WORK to have a relationship with you.

First you want a baby. OK, then you have a couple. Then, you work and take care of them which is too much, then you move a few times which is way too much. Then you want a puppy wHICH IS WAYYY TOO MUCH!

You have no time or money to deal with the problems with the house and the counseling you need to keep your relationship good!

Do you want a dog to distract you from your tendancy to be an exhausted workaholic or to distract you from having an unbalanced live or distract you from the fact you have too much going on and do not have proper time to care for yourself, your kids, or your husband?

You need time to care for YOURSELF and get yourself happy so you have energy to deal in the best ways with your marriage and the kids.

You dont want to care for yourself?


You mean you would rather take that limited time, maybe an hour a day, that you have now to care for YOURSELF and instead get a dog that takes that time up and more so you will now have NO TIME to CARE FOR YOURSELF?

Would you rather escape learning how to care for JAYNE? Are you not accustomed to caring for yourself and you dont want to learn to do this? Is there something wrong with taking quality time to CARE FOR YOURSELF????

I do not see you caring for yourself, do you do it?

I do not see you spending any time caring for yourself, how much time do you think you spend each day on caring for yourself?

If you got a dog, how much time a day would you have to care for yourself then?

Girl, if you continue to run your mind, body, and emotions RAGGED twenty four hours a day you will become more than sick. You will become very unhappy or even insane. An unbalanced life causes illness, addictions, unhappiness, misery to people around you, and insanity.

I know, I used to be a workaholic. It was terrible for my health....in every way, and even worse, it was more terrible for the health of those around me who loved me.

Work :twobyfour: work :twobyfour: work till you drop! That is what you think...right Jayne!

Dont you deserve to have a happy balanced life????

Here is how I see you up to now in a nutshell.

I believe, Jayne, that you are extremely smart, and you can multitask well and work hard at many things in life. But you put a lot of STRESS on your life. By taking on so many things. At once. Without dealing properly with many of them first...

Here is what I think you are saying in your posts and in life:

1. I want a husband so I can have a BABY!

2. I want a BABY! NOW! I gotta have a baby NOW!

3. I want a DOG, NOW! I gotta a have a DOG!

4. My husband is stupid! In many ways.

5. He cared for me when I was sick, and he is a nice man, so I owe him! He is nice but stupid in many ways.

6. My husband wont listen to me.

7. My husband is stupid with money.

8. My husband does not fill my needs---of course I don't know what my needs are,,,,and I cannot fill my own needs, and I do not want to learn properly how to ask for anything, I just know that HE does not fill them.

9. My husband does not do the right thing in real estate deals.

10. Now! I want a puppy NOW!

11. I want daycare for the kids NOW!

12. We are out of MONEY NOW!

13. Neither I nor my husband want to BUDGET our money!

14. I refuse to budget money, I just want to blame my husband if we are short on money, after all, I have been blaming him all along. That is easier than figuring out a budget.

15. I don't want to change my life, I should not have to change the way I live, I would rather blame everything on my husband.

16. I don't need to change, he is the one that needs to change.

17. "If only" I could make him go to counseling.

18. If only I could get him to listen more

19. If only he would talk with me more than 5 sentences a day.

20. If only he was a differnt type of man.

21. I dont need friends.

22. I have no time to make friends.

23. I have no motivation to make friends.

24. I want a puppy.

25. Urine was all over the old carpeting. Puppy urine. They had to remove that carpeting. We had to fight tooth and nail for new nice carpeting that was not urine soaked....UH....NOW we can get a puppy too who will pee all over the NEW CARPETING.

26. I work all day and work all night caring for kids.

27. When I severely overwork day after day I feel I am finally WORTH something.

28. If I overwork so much that I get sick I feel VALUABLE to myself and to others.

29. I am not worthy enough to TAKE CARE OF MYSELF and spend time on gently caring for myself each and every day. I run myself ragged day in day out since I feel worthless unless I do this. But if I am sick I feel sorry for myself.

30. I am going to work myself to death and then, before I DIE, I will continue to blame my husband for all my unhappiness in life.

31. Nothing in life makes me unhappy, except my husband. I can work day and night until my brains fall out and still it is only my husband who makes me unhappy by what he does or does not do.

32. Watching the idiotic way my husband gets through his life makes me angry at him.

33. I have no respect for my husband. He won't even talk much or argue against me like all men should!

34. Why should I care for myself when my husband should be the one to CARE FOR ME so that I do not have to learn to care for myself.

35. I would rather blame my husband for years, for NOT caring for me and not knowing how to care for me,,,,than learn to care for myself and spend time caring for myself and working less so that I can have a balanced and happy life.

36. I derive my self esteem primarily from overworking. And I wish my husband could support me in this, overachievement even if it makes me a depressed, unhappy, angry, resentful, yelling, arguing, stressed out, high strung individual. He should still support my workaholic lifestyle. And fill my needs, whatever they are...I don't know specifically what I need to make me happy and don't have time to find out!

37. I am superwoman, a mother, a worker, and everything. Cant anyone see this!!!, How hard i am working. I am making myself sick here with my sacrifice and no one sees or cares how hard I work.

38. I sacrifice my whole life for my family and my work. Does no one see this???!!!

39. I feel that my husband should be my venting board form my workaholic stress, you know, so I can continue to overwork for years and years. If only he could bear the brunt of my exhaustive stressed out tirades like a man! Then, I would not have to change myself or my life in any way. I could continue to overwork and use him as my sounding board and venting vehical. You know, to help me get by day to day as I overwork hour by hour.

40. If I had a choice of quitting my job and having a good marriage or keeping the full time job and having a stressed out lousy marriage I would keep my full time job.


I could go on and on and now you will hate me. But I see a neverending workaholic "self-neglecting" lifestyle coming from you. This creates a huge imbalance and an unhappiness in YOU that NO ONE can fix.

TO FIX YOUR DEEP UNHAPPINESS WILL NOT TAKE YOUR HUSBAND, AT FIRST....

INSTEAD, IT WILL TAKE YOU CHANGING YOUR IMPOSSIBLE UNMANAGEABLE LIFE INTO A BALANCED LIFE WITH TIME LEFTOVER TO LOVE YOURSELF AND CARE FOR YOURSELF AND FIND OUT WHAT YOU WANT AND NEED IN LIFE.

You deserve being happy Jayne, and blaming your husband for being unhappy, if even only in your mind, will keep you from reaching out and eliminating the over work behavior you like so much and are addicted to. You need to learn to derive self esteem from....yourself! Not your husband or others, or your work or your over working. Please learn what "caring for yourself" means. What Jayne needs to be happy, and how she can get this. Please learn to care for yourself for hours every day.

YOU DESERVE TO BE HAPPY!!!

:gobblegobble: :twobyfour:

Hi Stella,

Thanks for the detailed feedback. I'll try to reply to all the points. I think some of the things you are mistaken about, but I'm trying to see if there's something I'm missing. Some of the things from this post I'll address in the reply to the next post.


I feel defensive about this. I do NOT want to be considered "high maintenance." I don't know how much lower maintenance you can get from only seeing each other every other month and talking for 5 minutes a day. I see other women getting back rubs and foot rubs; holding hands; hugs and kisses; and 15 hours of UA. How am I higher maintenance, and why do I not deserve something?


It's not my fault I had a couple. I wouldn't trade them for a singleton for all the money in the world though. I can't imagine having just one kid in a house full of grownups now. And lots of parents work. I would be a horrible SAHM! I don't have the patience. I'd be screaming at my kids all the time. And I'd end up spending lots of money on hobbies like quilting or something. Better that I'm making money rather than spending it.


I don't know... I want a gazillion things out of life. I have a gazillion interessts, I want to do a gazillion things. Is that bad? When I was younger I looked up to people who had rich lives filled with all sorts of interesting activities and hobbies.


I can see your point here. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do or not do though. I pretty much am having a total blast at my work nowadays, so that is caring for myself isn't it? Sometimes I feel like I do so much for myself that I'm being selfish, so maybe that's not what you mean. I dont know, I ignore taking care of my physical body... like check ups etc., pushing the limits on sleeping and skipping meals. Could be a result of CSA. Or could just be that sometimes I'm busy but so are a lot of other people. Now however it's mostly just waiting for new insurance to get confirmed. In our new house we have a wonderful jacuzzi bath tub that I've been using, does that count?



I guess I see having a dog drastically differently. I don't see a dog as a time and energy sink. I see a dog as adding a whole lot of value to the day. Incentive to go for a walk or run every morning for me. Something to get the kids outdoors playing in the fresh air every afternoon instead of in front of the tv. Someone to give a little petting to every now and then, but that's only a few minutes at a time.Feeding and watering just takes minutes. Maybe what y'all are all seeing as chores, are the very things I think are the good things.

I'm extremely tired of trying to justify my wanting a dog. My H seems more understanding than y'all. Sorry, but can I respectfully request that topic to be off limits from now on? It seems the ppl posting here just plain and simply don't want a dog. Fine, I'm not telling you to get one. But apparently there's a whole gob of people who do think having a dog is worth the time and the money. And those are not all SAHMs either. Of all the dog owners I know, not a one is a SAHM. And they spend the time and money, in fact there's a whole industry that revolves around pet products. I'm not the only one who values pets.


I don't get it. When I talk about something that I want deeply, I'm told that is selfish. How exactly would you like me to care for myself?


I thought so. To me a happy home has two parents, at least two kids, at least one cat and one dog, and is bustling with energy and activity. With this move I am trying to finally get things in balance, with jobs that we both enjoy, activities for the kids, fresh air and exercise, ... What am I not doing that you would have me do?

I waited a looooong time for things to be "right". I was in my late 30's. How much longer would you have had me wait?


Again, it's been over 8 years since my last dog passed away. I've been waiting for a long time, for H and I to be more settled and have one household, etc. We now have one household, in a great location for a dog, and miracle of miracles we even had a month or two with bare floors instead of carpet! Hard to think of a better time.


Do I really say that? I know I disagree with some things he does, and I get frustrated... but do I come across as saying he's stupid in many ways?


Well, he often doesn't listen to me. That can be verified. I don't think he's stupid with money, I think he's a conflict avoider and doesn't protect the family's interests in the way that I would have, in a lot of situations.


How do I not know what my needs are??? The title of this thread is "discovered HIS needs, now what?" Because I'd been struggling with identifying his needs. IMHO I've identified mine clearly, with Conversation and H&O being at the top, and everything else I could live without although some things might be more appreciated than others. It's nice to have FS and DS but if I had to I could manage those myself, and have for most of my life. RC and Affection are fuzzy cus I could see them being met at the same time as Conversation.

And I thought I'd been spending a lot of energy trying to learn to ask for things in better and better ways. Is it my fault H still says no?


Yes I do disagree with some of what he did.


See above.


Yes, I needed daycare most especially the first two months we were here. I had shared with H my concerns about a very important deadline and had thoughtfully requested that he take the major responsibility for at least Wednesdays, at least the first two months. He agreed. Then he didn't do it. I was stressed because I'd been counting on his help that he'd promised, and I was upset that he wasn't keeping his word.


Um, no, *I* very much DO want to budget our money. All the budgeting that has been done has happened because I sat down and did it myself or started doing it and H joined in. I went through most of the Dave Ramsey stuff, and played tapes for H while we were driving, and did the worksheets and said I wanted to follow the steps and set them up and organized everything.

And when I was most concerned about money, was when we were supporting two households on 1.5 salaries. We are now supporting one household on 2 salaries (both greater than before). And the kids are in public school now instead of private.


I've changed my job, my house, my city, my state (so that H could have his dream job, by the way). I worked on changing my attitude, and ended up with a job I like in a place I now love. I lost weight. I gained weight when we were living in hotels. I'm losing weight again. I got new prescription glasses. About the only thing I haven't changed is my hair color. LOL Oh, and the fact that I still don't have a dog.

Steve told me to ask him.


Ok, guilty as charged here. But I'm so confused. On one hand you and others encourage me to think that I deserve to be treated decently; to take steps to improve things; to make thoughtful requests. Now you're accusing me of that?


I'm not sure where I said I didn't want friends. I think I just expressed what a lot of other parents of 6 year old kids say a lot. The day is quickly filled with family and work stuff, not a lot of time to go out "with the girls" anyway.


Guilty as charged for the desire. I give up on the actual acquiring.


Which is why I was wanting to get the puppy before the new carpet was installed!!!!! Done properly and consistently and with a positive attitude, potty training a puppy doesn't have to take very long. I would never leave an untrained poor puppy locked in the house for long periods of time to go wherever he wants. That's training him that the carpet is precisely where he should go. The spots also mean any other dog is gonna think that's where they should also go. Which is why the time *between* carpets would have been perfect. It isn't often that you actually have most of the carpet in your house taken up. It seemed like a golden opportunity. Oh well.


How often have I said things like this? Hasn't it always been associated with times that H had promised to shoulder the responsibility because of a certain temporary situation, a deadline I had or one night a week?



This is taking a lot of time that I'm not spending either napping or playing with my kids. I don't know what I'm supposed to take from this. I feel like, others get to come here and vent... but then again, when people whine all the time and don't take steps to improve, we get frustrated... is that how you see me? A whiner who isn't taking steps to improve?

Jayne, I'm glad to see you respond. Like you remind me, we can look at what someone says about us, and ask if this is true. If it is, it's okay, we can change it. Or it could be not true for you.

I really wanted to stress again how the MB program is a really balanced program, giving you 15 hours a week for UA time and 15 hours for FC time. You two can plan things that are love bank fillers and then still do them if he has to work late or something. Same thing for FC. Not because I'm saying that you're not doing this. Are you? I have heard a lot of great things about taking that time to play together.

Kudos to you for taking time to take a jacuzzi bath. And BIG KUDOS for getting your finances in order!

I would love to have 15 hours of UA and 15 hours of FC time. Asking H to plan things with me does not work. What do you suggest?

I don't know if you remembered, I started by planning stuff myself, when H was in a high-hours time with work. He couldn't join me for a walk, that's okay, I went. I went to the movies with the kids anyway, even though I'd thought it was a movie he'd want to see, when he backed out. It felt so wierd at first, like what was I going to do on my own? But really, he wanted that time to get work done, and felt better with me and the kids off of his back.

Looking back, it was a modified 180. In the regular 180, you plan stuff for you. This is you plan stuff the two of you, or the whole family, and he shows up or not. Then you and the kids still get the benefits. My H jumped in.

Just a suggestion.

I think I did this with scouting, at least for the whole-family stuff. He wasn't enthusiastic about signing the kids up for cub scouts, I did anyway. Now just about every other weekend there has been a family "outing" type thing that we have both gone to. I've done most of the "chores " like getting the uniforms etc., but he's actually taken them to more meetings than I have during the week. Some we've gone to together. Just depends on what else is going on with the house etc.

Last weekend I took the kids to the video rental store and got 5 movies for them (cheaper to get 5 than 2 or 3) and one for me that I thought he might like too. Usually I would've asked him first, and not gone to the store unless he came also or said if/what he wanted. This time I didn't ask, I just did it. I had suggested getting movies recently several times and he kept saying no. This time I didn't ask, cus we were going to a get-together Friday evening with some folks from my work, and the movies were to keep the kids entertained while the adults socialized. The kids enjoyed the movies all week long, and H watched the movie with me Sunday night.

So that's some whole-family stuff, some socializing with friends, some just the two of us stuff. Because I IBed with the scouts and the movies.

Something Believer said to me alot in early recovery, both times...

"go out and make a good life for yourself, and hopefully he'll join you in it"

I have a POJA dilemma and the only reasonable choice I can see is for me to give in. I hesitate to ask but I don't want to be accused later of whining and not being willing to take steps.

When the carpet didn't get installed last week, I thought I'd made it clear to H that I no longer was enthusiastic about having a houseful of relatives over for Thanksgiving. We talked specifically about his parents, whether or not they still planned to come, and I said I didn't see how we could do it with the house the way it is. I said that to him, and I said it to him and the lawyer. I thought he said he'd talk to his parents.

Tonight he said his parents are still planning on coming. He has arranged for the carpet to be installed at our cost, and then we are suing for reimbursement, because the guy didn't meet our lawyer's deadline to accept our offer to settle. The carpet is to be installed tomorrow and the next day. Someone has to be here to let them in. That someone has to be me, because H says he has to be at work. So I'd take the kids to school, come back for the carpet guys, and then go to work after letting them in and getting them set up etc.

Neither of us get off work this week before Thursday. (Which is different from where I worked before, we'd get the whole week off, at least "officially". It was a great chance to catch up on stuff without pressure, in addition to allowing time to plan a great family Thanksgiving holiday.) I haven't planned a Thanksgiving dinner, I figured I'd pick up something simple at the grocery store that I can just throw in the oven, that the kids will like as well as anything. But not what I'd want to serve my in-laws.

We still only have the kids' beds and one other bed put up.

So tonight I told H I thought we had agreed we couldn't have guests for Thanksgiving right now. I told my mom, and she's waiting to come later. I told H I wasn't enthusiastic about having my in-laws here for Thanksgiving when I won't be able to work on putting the house together or a meal together before Thursday morning. He said his dad could help him put the furniture together. I said I thought we were gonna hire the furniture ppl to do that, and include it in our costs. I'm not sure what day they are showing up, but whatever time they arrive I suppose the first order of business will be to install furniture, after having driven 14 hours.

At this late stage I don't see how I could possibly stand my ground, enforce my boundary, enforce the agreement I understood that guests were to be postponed until after the carpet and furniture was installed (and not just 24 hours after the carpet was laid down), without being a total jerk. But I can see how if I go along, then I'm taking on too much. Even I feel overwhelmed at the thought of putting a house together including carpet and furniture, and planning even a simple Thanksgiving meal for guests, while working Monday through Wednesday. So, I'm interested in how others would handle this.

Thanks lil! That's what I'm trying to do. Sorta like you getting your motorcycle. But apparently not all my ideas of what a good life looks like are acceptable. I feel like I'm darned if I do and darned if I don't right now.

I assume that will be censored so I won't try to nicen it down. ("Nicen, v.: to make nicer. I just made it up but I think it should be a word.)

Just a quick reply but I would let the carpet people in, your not going to 'win' the thing about who owes what at this stage so just let it go.
Leave the furniture issue up to Jay, he said he would and let him have the consequences if it doesnt happen, should he yell and moan just quietly say that he isnt being fair, he did say....
Then I would ring a catering outfit to find out if you could order a precooked turkey that can either be nuked, or wrapped in foil and oven cooked to warm thru. Buy a couple of trays of premade roast veges, and packet gravy, and a couple of nice premade desserts from the grocery shop. Lay on plently of wine and freely admit to the inlaws that with having just moved in, its a bit less than homemade as you would normally do. They should understand and if they don't...well tough!

BTW I don't think your whiny. I do think you don't sleep enuff tho

Thanks!!! Yes I have longstanding problems with insomnia. MB doesn't help.

ETA: Thanks for your suggestion. That's what I'm leaning toward too, I don't see what else I could do. Or rather, the alternatives seem worse. But it IS a "compromise" which isn't really POJA so I'm still interested in hearing what others would do also.

Honestly I think you have the paitence of a saint, I would have gone nuclear on his [censored], if it was Flick, but they are very different men.
So it leads me back to what Believer says. At some stage you have to just say, "I need to work on me". I know thats not really the MB way, but geeze! I just get worried because I see you walking down a path towards either becoming a WAW or a WW, not because I think you don't have good boundries, but because you are starved. I wish I could come and talk some sense to the man.
I look forward to hearing others responses too

FWIW I understand the not wanting to be a SAHM, I did it for 5 years and nearly went crazy, thats why I did my degree's, and I cheated, had a part time job for most of it.

Jayne, you know what we'd do, before we got here. When we mistakely acted like Buyers, going for the short-term solution instead of the long-term one. "Butch up," do everything, then LB and hate each other worse. Until there is no marriage left, just two people who hate each other.

What about going out for dinner? You're not enthusiastic about it, so don't do it. Don't make dinner. That's not PA. PA would be the scene above. "Okay it's FINE" and then LB when the family leaves.

Let H know today. "Hon, I told you I'm not cooking. I asked you not to invite your family to our house. I understand that you want it to look like everything's okay. But this is what "everything's okay" looks like to me today. You can order some catering and set it up, or we can go out."

Jayne, this isn't advice, just brainstorming with abandon. By tomorrow, you may say, "this is why I'm enthusiastic about doing everything."


Jayne, IB doesn't mean waiting for your H's permission for everything. It is choosing not to gain at your spouse's expense. I went through this, too. I learned to check my intent, and if it was pure, not something that H said hurts him, then I was following POJA. I doubt any of the movies you chose hurt your H, right?