Thank you JL and BCB so much.

Hope you had a splendid Thanksgiving.

Keep thinking of that saying 'Let go and let God". Don't know where it's from. I'm not really sure how to just finally let go. I'm not sure whether it is that deep pain inside my heart that I should just let come out - cry or whatever. Or is it something I do with my thinking? Is it just in the whispers that I say to God that "I don't know what to do", but in my thinking I don't think He'll help me so I don't really trust it. I also feel if I start to cry I will never stop. If I acknowledge the pain, I won't be able to move. How do I stop the self-sufficiency? I've been that all my life but it has been a heavy burden at times.

Off to work for the morning only.

I have been wondering how you are doing. I have been concerned for you and your husband

What you are going through is more than what we can accomplish here. We can advise and encourage, but you need support spiritually. You need mentoring and teaching on the true nature of God and how we can align our lives with what He has for us. You need to find yourself a body of believers who will, pray for you, help you heal spiritually, teach, edify, encourage. A real church is not a social club, it is a group of broken individuals who have found strength and healing in the power of Christ, who gather together to celebrate and encourage and learn. You and your husband really need to seriously look for a church to support you.

God will urge us in many ways. This may be God through his Holy Spirit urging you.

I have been rationale all my life. I have been a good stuffer. At some point the pain has to come out.

God understands our weakness. Tell Him. He will answer. In the Bible it says "ask it in my name (Christ) believingand it shall be done" (this is not a blank check our prayers need line up with scripture.

The self sufficiency comes because of your wounds and lack of trust. It is a defense mechanism that has been successful in preventing you (or so you thought) from getting hurt. This is the crux of the issue you will face (TRUST). What you are going through is painful. You are in the process of being forced (like I was) to learn to let go. Often you will hear this referred to in Christian vernacular as "broken".

I am no expert. I am only able to offer you encouragement that there are answers to what you are experiencing. I was broken. When I thought I could not take another step, God answered my prayer. I met a person, who has since become my good friend, who had recently gone through a difficult divorce. His words to me were "You will just have to learn to lean on Jesus". I really did not realize the significance of what he told me. I now know that Jesus carried me through. Just as my friend showed me that I need to cast all my cares and hurts and burdens on Christ. I pleaded in prayer with God to help me. He answered my prayers. He showed me I can let go. He blessed me with a peace that I still cannot comprehend. I am very grateful. And that is why I can tell you with confidence that there is hope. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.

I am doing my best to find meaning and happiness in life. I was following my own path. God had a different plan. In Max Lucado's book Gods Gentle Thunder he says God will stop at nothing to get our attention. He certainly got mine, and I think he is getting yours.

Remember the Sunday school song
Read your Bible pray every day and you'll grow grow grow? There is a lot of wisdom in that song.

Keep seeking Him and keep praying Nowis. Uou and your husband need to find a Pastor and a church you can "belong to" sooner than later. Hang in there. God is faithful.

Nowis
I happened upon this post from Mark on healing. It is very good and I think you would benefit by reading it. If the link does not take you there right away it is on the third page about half way down. Some very good insight that I think you might benefit from.

God Bless

Musings from Mark

Thanks BCB

I read it. I could relate to it, particularly as I had undergone hip surgery earlier this year. Sometimes life lessons are under my nose but I don't always see them.

My H is away again for 10 days so I have some space. I have decided to use this time to do a cleanse and connect with my spirit. Take the quiet space, no struggle, 'hear' and heal. My H seems to be on an even keel. Just calm and thoughtful. We have stepped away from each other somewhat which is a good thing, I guess, for now. No relationship talk is very helpful it would seem.

I still have that question which I don't have an answer to. I am not going to struggle with it though. Maybe some other things around it may begin to solidify. Maybe then I will know.

I am glad to hear things have calmed down for now. I hope while you have some time alone you will reflect on what Mark shared with us on healing, and I hope it will bring hope and comfort.

Take care of yourself and may God Bless you and your family.

Nowis,

You said You reminded me of something that I have noticed in my life. People only have problems until they get tired of them then they either solve them or they leave them behind.

"Let go and let God" is actually along those lines. You have questions but no answers. The problem you seem to be having is you are trying to create a plan for your life based on the questions but have no answers.

It seems to me you should conduct your life as you feel is the best for you, your H, your family, and make alternative plans ONLY WHEN YOU HAVE ANSWERS to the many questions that seem to be making you so unhappy. The reality is you don't have the answers to you dissatisfaction and you have assumed that somehow your H is the cause. It is very possible he is the solution but not the cause.

This thread has had some interesting discussions about religions and what we all believe, but let me set a few things in concrete for you.

As I have said, I am a scientist. I make a living trying to understand nature and the world around us. It is not religion and in my mind it is not in conflict with religion. Somehow I was blessed with a deep curiousity about nature from the time I was very very young, and even more blessed have been able to have been able to do research for 40+ years. But, the one thing that people forget is that science is not democratic and it is all about prediction. Knowledge is judged by ones ability to explain past data and accurately predict future results. This requirement of predictability and repeatability is what differentiates science from BELIEF.

BELIEF is a very different thing and can be incredibly power. Belief does not require predictability or even proof, but it is deeply held. One can "beleive" in people without alot of information about them. Certainly religion requires BELIEF.

Why am I going into this. Nowis, there are the questions you don't have answers to, and then there are things that one believes. Your beliefs will guide you into the right path without an ability to predict what that path is. They won't answer some of your questions. Your actions should be based on what you believe to be consistent with your morals, what you feel is intrinsically good, what you feel is something you would be proud of.

Your unanswered questions are based on a lack of data. You see patterns, you know there are reasons for your actions and your feelings but you don't have the data yet. Although I think you do have more data than you realize.

Let me offer you what I think are data in your life.

1. You have a husband who while not perfect loves you.
2. You have a husband who while not perfect NEEDS your love.
3. You Need love, you need someone to care for you, you need someone that respects you.
4. You have a family and the children need both of you, love both of you, and you both love them. If you really think about this you are way ahead of many people.
5. Since love is an action, it is your choice to love your H or not. It is his choice to love you.
6. Feelings come and go and must be tempered by data such as I have offered you above.


If I could run your life and I cannot as you well know, I would say for you to accept the blessings in your life, and learn to value them. I would tell you that you have much more control of things and power in situations where you feel you are powerless. I would counsel you to NEVER make plans based on unanswered questions. I would strongly implore you to trust that you actually can make and have made some good decisions in your life.

Finally, I would tell you that your marriage to your H can be made much better, and made into something that nutures both of you, and you both need some serious nuturing.

I hope something I have said is of help to you.

God Bless,

JL

JL

This is an amazing post, thank you. It spoke so much to me. I have even copied it and sent it to my H (rightly or wrongly).

This offers me a way to think and brings about some peace. I would like to think that my H is the solution.

He called me last night, it was 4.30am in Europe but early evening here. I was thrown. He wanted to talk about the marriage. He wanted answers too but overall was thinking that we could never have the marriage that either of us wanted... sigh. Anyway, I just said to take it day by day. So sending him your post should help him too.

This was sooo helpful. I am tuning into my inner self, my spirit, and it is truly about what I believe. No matter what is told to me, it is what I believe and hold fast too. I am re-evaluating what I believe and then I can truly live an authentic life. With all the talk of religion, I have to slow it down and make it true for myself. It's not that I don't appreciate others faith and view point, I do but my faith belief is mine and I have to get there - wherever that is, being true to me. I have to come to know 'God' for myself, particularly as I'm not sure about Him!

I know 5 and 6 is where I am coming undone......
....... but this is probably a large part of the answer.

Yes, this makes so much sense. It is better to do nothing I am learning. No struggle no agitation, no trying to make decisions.

Thank you so much, again - so insightful and meaningful to me.

Nowis,

You are more than welcome. It gives me great pleasure to be able to help at least a little bit.

Just a random thought. I am much older than you or your H, and when I grew up God was referred to as a HE. In my 20's and 30's the debate was God should be referred to as a she, in the femanist world. This went back and forth over years. But, a Being that can create all we know to exist, probably doesn't have a gender as we know it. The term HE was used simply to convey a sense of power. But, it has been taken literally, when in fact the power of this Being is beyond our imagination.

What you need to realize is that portions of this power reside in you. It is what gives you a sense of right and wrong, of guilt, of fear. Relax, have some trust in yourself.

I always liked the oath doctors take: "Above all else do no harm." I think that is a very good for life and it teaches love and care.

God Bless,

JL

JL

Yes, I will learn to trust myself.

Spoke to the Psych today. She pretty much said the same thing. Trust myself and I will know. There are areas of creativity for me to explore and discover about myself. I should learn about my culture and heritage which I know is a huge missing part of my life. (Which, incidentally, I need to share with my children too for their sense of history and belonging). In doing so, I will become less numb and more fulfilled. This, in turn, should help me in my marriage. She said it may help me to appreciate my H. I don't know how that would be, but I'm not saying it couldn't happen.

She asked me what my ideal man would be 'look like'. Interesting question. Anyway, quote of the session was that she didn't "think that I loved my H the way that he loves me. I don't have that love for him. I have an appreciation of him and very much a best friend love but am not passionate about him.". I asked why my H loved me after everything. She said "you can love someone for lots of different reasons and beyond that, love has no rhyme or reason, it just is love and that's what my H feels towards me, but not me toward him".

I'm not phased by it. It's like a broken record. It offers me nothing. No further appointments made and I should just go if I need.

Nowis,

Love, needs, actions they are tied. Respect, affection, humor they are tied. Appreciation, blessings, opportunity, they are tied.

Each of us ties them differently, but I can assure you that what you seek is within those words and the concepts and actions they convey. It is not uncommon of a couple to love one another at different levels of these things. As each of these items takes their place at the top of your lists, your feelings and the strength of them will change.

You have been blessed, but you don't see the blessings...yet.
You have been given gifts, but you haven't unwrapped the packages...yet.

When you do, and then you see each of the items exist in your life, then you will have a better idea of many things. I think you will not be depressed, you will finally be at peace.

Don't give your gifts away before you unwrap the package.

God Bless,

JL

Nowis,

You think you are alone. You think you are unique. I would encourage you to look at the number of times people have come to read YOUR thread. Not the number of people who have posted or the number of posts to be more specific, I mean the number of times people have opened and read some or all of this thread.

Your story touches people Nowis because all of us are in marriage where equality doesn't exist, but if we are lucky balance does. That balance is only maintained by shifting perspectives in our lives.

God Bless,

JL

What JL has said here is profound in my opinion. WOW. A person could spend the rest of ones life observing, studying, understanding and weaving these into ones life.

I gotta ask JL where did you get this stuff? You roll this into the post so subtly. It really, really hits me. Would you care to expand on this further?

Nowis I think if you take this on as an assignment you could possibly spend the next year working on this. This is an incredible key. This is foundational. Profound. One of the things I notice about this post of JL's is feelings are not the focus. I am wondering if the reference here is feelings will follow?

Thanks JL you have blessed me more than you can imagine. Thank you for sharing this insight. I have to ponder what you say further.


Is the reference here to say that we need not be in a hurry or get in a rush, don't push? Balance will come in time as our perspective changes once we become more tuned with your previous reference to Love, needs, action, ; respect, affection, humour .....?

JL is this really fair? I have to get ready to go and you start dropping nuggets like this? You are going to force me to find an internet terminal while I am away.

Hang in there Nowis. I think you still stand at the crossroad of change. I am learning that change often comes through crisis. At least the recognition that we need to change. Sometimes we are fortunate to be given good advice while we are open and seeking. You have been blessed, JL is sharing what I believe to be great wisdom. I am blessed by my association with you and the opportunity to participate in dialogue with JL and the others. It has been a long journey so far, but I sense you stand at the cusp of a new beginning. From what I have read here JL has coached you on perspective. He has brought to your (and my) attention numerous times the importance of perspective. I think tonight he has shared an important key on how to shape that perspective. He laid out the keys for us. I think we need to understand this in greater depth.

JL


I have written this in my journal. It give me some hope.

Your first sentence is huge! I can see right there that respect, affection and humor have been missing for me in varying degrees. Appreciation, blessings and opportunity - much easier for me to embrace. Wow.

You know JL, I don't really notice. I shouldn't be surprised that other people can relate to my situation (guess I'm just thinking about my own situation). I hope we all make it through.

Yes BCB

I had to read it over at least 6 times. It is profound and is quite a key to how I fail in my relationship with my H. Just those three things, right there, respect, affection and humor are things that I struggle with with my H. It is also a key to the things that I need to work on with my H.

I feel extremely fortunate to have so much help. Here! At a Forum! Online! My life and perspective are changing and I hang in there and hope it is for good and success.

BCB, are you off to Africa?

BCB,

You asked where do I get this. The honest answer is I don't know, but it seemed important to me to say these things to Nowis. They are patterns, and you look closely they are patterns often mentioned in discussions on this site. They are also discussed by Harley as well. Often not put in quite the form I placed them for Nowis. I just see patterns BCB I really don't know what else to say.

I have often wondered why I have remained on this site for so long. I think it is because of the patterns, and it gives me joy to offer those patterns to other people for them to use as they may. To me many of these things seem to occur in triads and as you noted they are tied together, and then the triads are tied together.

It seems to me as Nowis begins to see these things as patterns perhaps her perspective will change. I will tell you that one of the most influential posters as far as I am concerned was K, and he saw opportunity where I doubt many people and certainly not me could have seen it. He found out his W was pregnant by OM. He knew of the affair, he fought for his marriage, but when she became pregnant, he say an OPPORTUNITY. He sees HIS child who is I would guess 10 now as a blessing and he appreciates those blessings. Yes, he marriage survived her affair, her pregnancy, many serious medical problems on her part, and a completly changed dynamic in their marriage.

When I read, thought about, and discussed these things with K, I began to see the world differently, much differently.

It seems to me to love and be loved you must have the first three. To thrive you must have the last three, and to enjoy you must have the middle three, and to truly savor ones life, you need all three groups. It is ours to do, no one else.

You are about to leave on a mission, and I would bet good money you will come back with many of these triads enhanced to levels you cannot predict. As this happens, other things will open up and your life will be whole once again.

I will say I spent my youth traveling this country and parts of the world. I knew many people that had been to other parts of the world. I enjoyed every place my family lived and I learned that there are many commonalities among people, their needs desires are often the same as found here, if one only looks and listens. But, what often is different is their perspectives and how they look at things. I think you will see many of these things on your mission.

Good Luck and God Bless,

JL

Nowis,

You said
I struggle with the word WORK. I think perhaps you take this too seriously. You need to look at your H's failings and I am sure he has many and his special way of doing things as part of him, as what makes him human and special. It doesn't take work, it takes tolerance and forgiveness. You need to be able to kid him about things and allow him to kid you. You need to laugh at comedy, or the follies of your children. You need to enjoy them and know that as you enjoy them you enjoy the family unit that makes all of this special.

I have said this before but I will repeat it. Please forgive me if I have already said this. When I was a kid my Dad was my hero. He was in fact a highly decorated war hero. He flew airplanes and was considered on of the best pilots, he was good at sports, he was smart. But as I got older and especially as I became a teenager I became aware that he was not perfect, that he worried about things, that he was aware of his deficiencies. And as a teenager I rebelled a bit against him.

But, as I became an adult, and started my life on my own, I began to realize something very important. What made my father special was not that he was perfect, it was the he overcame his failings, his fears and he did the one thing we all can control, he did his best and he was a man of his word.

He has been gone over 20 years now, and I am still learning from him.

My point is your H does not have to be perfect or even very good to be special. You just need to start to see what makes him special and enjoy these things. You need to see his failures and understand that he more than anyone feels them and struggles with them. You need to understand as I have said to you that he has many fears, but he struggles to overcome them. Once you see these things, it is very likely you will find many things about your H that warrent your respect. And yes from time to time make things humorous.

I cannot help thinking this is what your counselor is trying to tell you in different words. This is not about WORK, this is about observing, listening, and enjoying. As you see these things that I have discussed it will be much easier for you to see your blessings.

I hope that something I have said will help.

God Bless,

JL

Nowis
Africa may come after I get through the first part of my training. Right now I am off to Mexico. A friend and I are going to check out a work called "Children of the dump". We will also do some other touring around as well.

After Mexico it is off to Hawaii for training. Then two months field assignment. I am looking forward to being challenged.

Nowis you are so incredibly fortunate to have JL mentoring you through this. If you hang in there through this process you will never be the same. Trust a scientist to come up with the stuff he does.

I am absolutely blown away and I am still digesting his previous post. The insight JL provided, I am having some fun getting my head around how to apply it appropriately. When I read it a light bulb flashed in my brain. It really does apply. I think he has given you (and me) a very important set of keys. We need to be tuned to watching and applying these triads. I cannot put it into words, thoughts and actions yet but I am working on it.


I think JL put it into perspective right here. If we can implement this our lives will never be the same.

Nowis, you cannot quit. You are too close to a break through. JL has pushed you to the edge. He has given you the tools. Will you jump? I'm going to go back and read the last posts. There is gold there.

Hang in there and God Bless

JL
Please accept my thanks and appreciation for how you freely share your wisdom and insights. I often wonder if what I am doing makes any difference in someones life. I can assure you, YOU have made a significant difference in mine.

A wise man once said "wisdom is the fruit of many sorrows". I cling to that being true. I would hate to go through all this pain and there not be any benefit.

I started working for a company when I was 17 years old, a temporary job until I went back to school. 35 Years later I was still there. Now it is my opportunity to go back to school. This time with a different focus.

This medium we use (the forum) never ceases to amaze me. People giving freely of their time to help another soul struggling with an issue in their life, seeking some comfort, a sympathetic ear, needing a boot in the rear, a pat on the back, a hand up. It encourages me that we still have a desire to gather in communities, sharing stories, hearing how people are doing, getting and giving advice and ideas. Like a big family sitting around a campfire trading stories. Our campfire circle now extends around the world, different places, different times, and we build a community.

JL you and others like you are so important to helping shape those souls (like me) lives. You have indicated you work in the field of science, but I see here you are impacting peoples lives. I consider it an extreme privilege to have had the opportunity to dialogue with you. Chances are we will never meet. Yet I consider you a friend. You have blessed me more than you will ever know. I am certain you have blessed many here. Thank you. Keep up the good work.

God Bless you and your family.

Amen.