Catperson





I was given some techniques some time about about learning to forgive. Along with a book called Fearless Living by Rhonda Britten. I was working on trying to forgive my dad. I don't believe I ever got resolution on that. I tried and felt like I was having to force myself to think of him and go through the painful emotions to forgive. I think I've spent my whole life trying to forget him.

Anyway, maybe I could start looking at forgiveness again. I don't feel I have anger and resentment in my childhood. I sometimes feel pity but I understand what happened. I understand what happened with my Mom. I feel I need to let go of my own fear, anger, resentments, disappointments with myself and my H. Do I go about this in the same way? I guess so. Maybe I don't understand how much of a key forgiveness is?

Thanks for your input.

Nowis,

If she really said Find another counselor.

The implicit assumption of her statement is that you cannot/will not change your perspectives or your internal dynamics, therefore, it is either/or. Life is NOT binary that is what all of us are telling you. THere are other avenues besides being miserable or leave. There is change, the issues are then rather simple: what do I change? Perspective or me? Does my H need to make some changes?

He will need to discuss that with you.

I say "simple" but I don't mean "easy". These two words are often used interchangably and they are not interchangable.

I would also say to you, that forgiveness is really subtle. It really is done for YOU, not the person you are fogiving. By this I mean you decide to lay down your option of making the other person pay for their failures. You don't have to forget. You simply decide that the power the persons actions have had over you and your decisions is not longer going to exist. You no longer have a need to protect/react/hold responsible this person for their actions in the past. It is simply a "setting down" of what you have carried within you for so long.

So let's consider that you are not a bad person. Let's consider that your H is not a bad person. Let's consider that actually married the right person and he married the right person. Let's also consider that love is not a "feeling" but an "action".

Then let's consider that you want him to take over parts of your life as you stated earlier. Given that you married the right person, given that this person has shown love by his actions, then can you not give him permission to lead your life??? You know he won't intentionally hurt you. You know if you feel you are being hurt, simply mentioning your discomfort will make him pause and seek further what you need.

What he wants is something you discussed early on in this thread if my memory serves me correctly. He needs YOU TO NEED HIM. You can be self-sufficient, you have been self-sufficient, but if you allow him to help you, and have you lean on him, then you are opening up.

SF may not take as long as you think. It really depends on your perspective. If you view SF as something YOU need, and frankly you probably need it more than you realize (not from a physical point of view, but an emotional point of view), Then, you can permit him to see this emotional need and fill it, either by your request or allowing him to flounder around abit. You could develop a "code" word or phrase that let's him know you will entertain his advances. Your lack of trust and fear that he will become attached if you two have too much SF will be reduced.

Why? If you can admit that you actually do need him, and you trust your own sense of self and his sense of self, then SF is now safe. It is about him pleasing you. Let me explain this carefully. Most men will if properly guided spend all of the time it takes to make sure their W has her needs met from the SF point of view. Most men are willing to make sure their W's are satisfied, IF they know what the W wants and needs.

This requires the W to open up, and with care and gentleness explain what they need. Your OM knew what you wanted because you were in an affair. He had no fear of harming you.

This example is not just about SF it is about opening up and telling him you NEED him and how and why you need him. It is not about demands, and it really cannot start with the most dreaded statement men can hear: "We need to talk."

Nowis, a good person does not want to hurt themselves or those close to them. I think that describes you very well. Your H is a good person. Further he has shown a capability to love that neither your family nor your OM could show. You can trust him.

I think you can take your heart in your hands and pass it to him, and he will guard it.

These are thoughts, but they are thoughts meant to show you a way of gaining new perspective, it is not THE way. You have to find that within yourself.

Part of what you seek is what your counselor said. What satisfies you? You need to know that, and then you need to tell your H. THis is where "radical honesty" not brutal honesty coupled with the policy of joint agreement comes in.

He feels he has failed you, but I think you have failed yourself because you have not allowed a man that loves you to come within your soul.

Please think about it.

God Bless,

JL

OLA from Mexico
Even while sitting on the beach I have been wondering how things have been going for you.

Welcome to the most challenging yet important and freeing thing "forgiveness"> My friend is reading a book on forgiveness as we are soaking up the sun. The book is "TOTAL FORGIVENESS" by R.T Kendall. I get to read it next. The cover says when everything in you wants to hold a grudge point a finger, remember the pain, God wnat you to lay it aside.

I am learing that forgiveness is the key to the true inner peace we seek. To forgive needs a game plan and a process and that is what I am hoping to learn while I am here. There are emotional and spiritual consequenses of unforgiveness, and that is why God adamantly encourages us to forgive. Forgiveness is more than just words, it is an action. True forgiveness involves a process of release. It sounds like we may be climbing the same mountain very soon.

Nowis, you are making amazing progress. Rome was not built in a day, changes will not come immediately, but look at where you are now at with your H. It sounds like you two are really talking for the first time. Good work. JL as usual is navigating you through some tough times. You are in good hands. I wish you well on the perspetives change. He has been guiding you in this direction for some time and I think he is spot on. If you are not careful you are going to have a break through one day.

God Bless

BCB,


Ola!

JL

JL



Yes, I hear it every time.



I simply have to decide. Such a simple sounding solution. It would be nothing but relief lay it down. For me the tricky bit is sitting in the space created. Not having any expectations. Not struggling to try and do something else with that space. Letting go of that.



Yes, I see this. I'm already whispering to myself "let it go" when the list of reasons we're not right for each other come, thoughts of the failings of the past come, the associated feelings come. I just want to empty it all out. I don't want it anymore. I want to start again.





It's EXACTLY what he wants me to do. I'm sad at myself and relieved and somewhat hopeful all at the same time. Sad that I've been this way for so long and relieved that I may actually be able to get rid of this part of me.



This is huge. Emotionally. I don't think I've connected emotionally with him through SF at all.



Yes, we are both working on this and have made progress. Our conversations about the marriage have been few but honest.



This brings tears to my eyes and I hurt for myself and him. The thing is, it's incredibly lonely 'over here'.

BCB

Wow you are on the first leg of your journey. Sitting on the beach no less!

Yes, I am listening to JL. I'm hearing and seeing myself for the first time. It's shedding light into who I am. It's 'searing' - the only way I can describe.

You are like the parent who has eyes in the back of his head... checking up! ( I jest, LOL).

Let us know how your journey and travels go.

Thanks for caring.

NOwis,

A different way to look at this comment
What does it mean to "connect emotioally"? Different people have different definitions. I don't know the answer.

Let me suggest you consider this. SF is an EMOTIONAL experience, especially if you tune into your own feelings, your own response and react to them. The emotional connection can come from you looking at SF as Harley describes it, an EMOTIONAL NEED. People need the contact, the responses, the giving and the taking, it is getting into contact with YOUR emotions that you must do.

You may cry your eyes out, if you ever let down your protections and allow yourself to feel, sense, and respond to yourself. If this happens you will connect with your H because he will respond to your emotions and your needs during this. The connection to your H will be natural when you connect with yourself in his presence.

That is how I look at it.

You also said Have you ever thought how deeply hurt your H is that you cannot forgive him? Have you ever thought what a huge present it would be for you to look him in the eye and tell him, that working on forgiving him? Let me ask you this, when your children mess up, do you forgive them? Of course you do, why? They may know better, but they are young and impetous. Your H was young and impetuous as well, and he did not know better. As he learned better, he stopped what was hurting you.

What you need to understand is that he is human. He has and will mess up, but what you also need to see, is that over the years he has changed, he still has faults but he is trying. What you have to ask yourself is what do you gain by NOT forgiving him? Why doesn't he deserve forgiveness as he has forgiven your actions and the pain you have caused him.

You are getting there Nowis. I see progress, you see progress both within yourself and with your H. This is about "baby steps" Nowis. Just keep taking baby steps toward your H and your own happiness, it will come.

God Bless,

JL

JL

Have to re-read these last few pages again and think on them.

Will talk soon.

JL

I've read and re-read the last few posts.

I don't know where to start to talk to my H. I don't know what to tell him.



It's odd because I don't feel that I need to forgive him. I feel that I need to ask him for forgiveness for holding onto resentments over the years. I know now that he did the best he could with the tools that he had at the time. Maybe it's one and the same thing.



The moments to cry are very few and far between and extremely fleeting. I don't know how to connect with this unless it is extreme. I don't feel things as much as I think other people do. I don't have a medium to let this stuff out really. I absorb. I know it's unhealthy for the body. I tend to just work out or practice yoga or intellectualize things or quash any thoughts or feelings. But I want to know how to get to this place. I want to know how to connect with my emotions.



That probably explains a lot about me then.

Seems that I need to learn how to connect with my emotions. I remember a while back in one of your posts saying that unless it is an extreme feeling (or something like that) that I do not feel it.

So, I should:

Find a way to connect with my feelings.

Forgive my H and tell him so.

OLA JL

Nowisthemoment

I understand the issue about connecting with feelings as I have done an excellent job of putting up the shields myself over the years. In my case I have been coming to terms with how to connect with my feelings, which I thought would be an impossible task.

Fear is a feeling, an unpleasant one at that, but we often want to protect ourselves from feeling those negative emotions, so we put the shields up. Problem is we stop feeling most emotions then. So like JL has been saying things tend to be related. Your FOO issues may be at the root, fear of trusting, just like your Mother warned you. Anger, resentment, bitterness toward a man who deserted you when he was supposed to be there to protect and support you. I suspect your H is getting the overflow from some of those issues. Forgiveness is interlaced with your freedom. Forgiveness from your H, and for your H. You say you don't feel you need to forgive him but as JL has pointed out you have had several negative feelings toward him and how you wished he was more of a man. This needs to be rendered through the forgiveness process. Forgiveness is more of a process than just saying I am sorry. It is a process of release. Forgiveness also involves, reconcilliation, repentance and restitution where appropriate. This is one of the reasons I was suggesting you find a Pastor to help walk you through this. The process Christians have through forgiveness is intended to set us free.

Are you still on your depression medication? If so one of the reasons you are on them is to blunt your emotions. So it is a bit of a challenge when on depression meds to get in touch with your feelings. If you are like I was you will be able to process things intellectually but challenged when it comes to emotions. I came off my meds to help me get in touch with my emotions to help process what I am going through. I do not suggest this is what you should do right now. You need to get to a point of stability.

Getting in touch with your feelings will involve some risk. You (and I) have become adept at protection. Those walls come down slowly. It involves risk, trust, awareness, persistance. What will it take for you to trust? Are you willing to expose yourself by being radically honest? Protection of ourselves is like living a lie, it is being decieptful to our spouse. We are holding back, they deserve more.

Have you guys done the emotional needs questionaire? If so do you work at them every day?

I am just wondering if both of you need a vacation from trying to fix all the issues right now? Perhaps it may be beneficial to just be, for a while. Perhaps it is time to relax with each other and comfort each other right now. What about talking about your dreams with each other. Sometimes it seems we want to fix the problem so badly we become compulsive about fixing it now. When really what we need is to relax a bit. Like JL was referring to, humour, love, remember the triads he described? What about focusing on finding some things to just laugh about? How about just appreciating each other for who you are and telling each other about all the good little things you have noticed this last week. Like the fact you H is faithful in providing. He is faithful in caring. Start listing all the things you like, appreciate and admire about your H. What about listing all the things you like about yourself? Focus on those things for a while. It is so easy to find fault, as we are not perfect humans.

Have patience, be kind to yourself and each other, you are doing well. You are really getting to the root issues now. Now is the moment.

I have cooled off sufficiently now, it is time to go back to the beach.

Hi BCB



No, not on them anymore. I was on antidepressants for a month and, honestly felt like I didn't need them. I think it was a culmination of everything at the time. I've been feeling okay, marriage excepting.



It is interesting. There is almost an invisible barrier which pops up everytime my H wants an honest answer/response as to how I'm truly feeling - if that makes sense. I guess that's the protection thing. Also I'm very reluctant to hurt him anymore. I want to stop saying negative but I suppose you have to in order to make things better. Absolutely it's living a lie - look where it's got me.



We have been doing this coupled with the fact that my H has been away a lot. I don't know if you remember but the advise was no relationship talk for a couple of months. Getting ready for Christmas and organizing our vacation to the snow in BC!! It has been working well if a little 'elephant in the room esque!' However, my H stopped me this morning and said to me that he was missing SF. I am too but it makes me anxious.... sheesh.

So, enjoy the beach.

Well my H did the Emotional Needs Questionnaire this lunchtime and so did I. I suggested it and was surprised he positive about it. I will get the results of his this evening.

I did it again and like the other 2 times that I've done this, it was difficult for me to cement what my most important needs are. For instance, when I rank them at the end, Admiration is last on my list but is this because I already have this and don't feel that it is a need?

Great I hope you have a good family vacation. I know a lot of people go to Whistler and that is the most famous place in BC but if you want to look at a little different experience sometime I suggest you look at a couple of the resorts in the Interior. Check out Silver Star Resort, Big White, Revelstoke Mountain (New and the longest Vertical in North America with incredible snow, the europeans have discovered it) Or try out Sun Peaks or Red Mountain. All very beautiful resorts and a very different experienct than Whistler. Smaller more intimate and in my opinion better value with better snow.

Wishing you and your H and family a very Merry Christmas. God Bless

BCB

Hey you

We're off to Big White! Never been to Whistler. My sis-in-law brought a swanky place there so we use that. We like Kelowna.

H and I to discuss ENQ in 10 minutes. Will let you know how that pans out.

Did you ever do an ENQ for yourself? Your wife?

My ex A person popped up today via text. Quite a shock. What's up with that? Have not responded.

Kelowna is very nice. I used to live in that area and now live a couple hours away.

Regarding OM

Get your husband to tell that scumbag that if he ever contacts you again, he will contact the police and have him arrested for marrital interference. He needs to be told never, ever contact you again for any reason. He is trolling. Perhaps Guido and the boys should visit and rearrange his kneecaps.

Get his phone number and have your husband call him and explain the facts of life. If he is married tell his wife what he is doing. If he goes to church contact the pastor and tell the pastor what he is doing.

This guy has got some nerve. He is looking for just what you might expect and under no circumstances should you speak to him directly.

I cannot believe the nerve of some people. This guy is a gutter snipe of the lowest caliber and you should be glad you are done with such a low life bottom feeder.

If I was not clear I do not have a very high opinion of such behaviour.

God Bless

So, why did I ask him to do the EN questionnaire? Why did I bring up relationship talk? I'm supposed to be quiet on the subject for another couple of weeks, but he has asked what we're doing and told me he misses SF.

These are my results

1. Affection
2. Family Commitment
3. Conversation
4. Financial Support
5. Sexual Fulfillment

His:

1. Affection
2. Honesty and Openness
3. Attractive Spouse
4. Sexual Fulfillment
5. Family Commitment

We ended up talking until midnight. It was not good.

One thing I was acutely aware of is how closed I become. It was very very tangible. All messages to and from my brain were telling me this was too hard. I then felt overwhelming exhaustion. The physical impact on the body when talking about the relationship was awful.

I'm not sure if we were ready. In fact, I don't know if there ever is a time to be ready. Anyway, this morning I was a lot softer and realized that a key thing is my non-need of him. JL/BCB you are SO right when you say that he needs to know I need him. To surrender to him. To trust that he'll be fine and I won't feel let down. He needs that from me. How do I do that? I've been 23 years in the making.

So my H was recommended to a life coach/counselor. He went to see him last night.
He like the guy apparently. He also said that we were to not discuss the marriage. Not to do anything. Just work on ourselves and decide for ourselves at some point whether this is the marriage either of us wants and is prepared to go forward with, or not.

So, I will return to silence.

Nowis, a central part of the MB Basic concepts, and what JL and bcb have been telling you, is to enjoy your most fun time together. I am thinking that this doesn't contradict what your H heard last night. What do you think? Self-improvement is great, but taking time enjoying the fun things in your life with the folks that mean the most to you is part of that, too, right?

"Not to do anything" doesn't mean "no, you can't do any fun things anymore with Nowis and your kids." Does it?

Bcb's working hard on himself, and you can see that he isn't doing that by isolating in a room by himself. It's the opposite.

Sorry Nowis but this is not a good strategy. I understand the frustration but this is not the way to go.

I just have been learning about what Jesus meant when he said "Live every day unto itself for tommorrow has trouble of its own"

I think that means live in the moment. For now ignore the past, don't fret about tomorrow.

How do you eat the elephant in the room? One bite at a time. Forget about trying to fix anything right now. Take one moment at a time. Am I OK right now? Are there any treats to my personhood, children, whatever.... Look at the very moment. Enjoy that moment and remember the triads JL brought up? Laugh, Love, do this with you family.

Your H and you have very similar needs so that is encouraging. So work on showing him affection in the moment. Look for opportunities to be thankful and appreciative. I am not sure what you are going to be able to do to inoculate yourself from the mistrust you were trained in from a young girl. In my opinion that will have to be a time thing. I suspect in the back of your mind you are waiting for some disaster to strike - whatever. So to live in the moment you can learn that not every moment is disasterous. Remember stinky thinking is a tough one to beat.

So let me share a story about how good God is. I am sitting on the beach reading a book and strike up a conversation with the fellow beside me. Turns out he is a Relationship counsellor, and was once a Minister. How cool is that for God to arrange a chance meeting like that. (You see I am having to learn how to trust God and let Him be in control, and voila, I am learning God shows up everytime) So one of the things he shared with me is that most often if people do separate and find a new partner they will often find someone very similar to the partner they had. Several years into the new relationship the issues that were not dealt with in the old relationship will begin to resurface.

Isn't that great? We will have to resolve the issues within ourselves at some point in time. I am growing in my faith and confidence as I learn how to surrender. I am actually beginning to enjoy not having to be in control, and starting to realize (tangibly) that if I let go and let God, things work out better than I could imagine. God is so gracious.

So Nowis I just said a prayer for you that you would experience the freedom that Christ has intended for us.

We are off this afternoon to visit the mission group "Children of the dump" We have signed up to go help feed the children. I am looking forward to meeting these wonderful folks who have a heart to help these children.

You know Nowis I just realized how God is helping me once again. There is a special blessing one recieves when we help others.

I'll be praying for you.

God Bless you and your family

Ears and BCB

Your encouragement is appreciated. I will live in the moment. This is something I know and should practice more.

It's hard to not have any actions or expressions of affection be treated as hollow and dishonest. Makes you want to get away from each other. I just don't know how to be around him anymore. I'm sick of this.

Anyway, the children keep us busy. I'm happy if they are happy. You know what has just dawned on me? I should just get on and make myself happy and make myself laugh and be at peace with me regardless of what he's doing.

Counting your blessings is key too. I see that you are BCB. How are you connecting with your wife whilst you're away? How does that all work? Is this your Plan B?