Forgot to mention that my copy of SAA arrived over the weekend.

I haven't started to read that or Proverbs yet for that matter. I feel too tired and depressed.

Must do it. I've been waiting for the peace and quiet, but I better start stealing some time regardless and getting into improving myself again.

I feel like I'm at the bottom of the hill again with a really big walk up to the top ahead of me. Falling sucks.

GOOD LUCK
Try and find a male solicitor who has some family law experience.

It does NOT matter if he agrees. Plan B is YOU telling him how YOU will live. If he wants to see the kids, he can either listen to you, or try to get a lawyer. THOSE are his choices.

If you crumble and backstep now, he will know you’re a weak, pathetic woman to whom he can do whatever he wants.

Who cares what his family thinks? Is this THEIR marriage?

Honestly, try to imagine what your life will be like in 5 years, if you let him win this. Think about it! What kind of life will your kids have if you don’t make this stand for your self-respect NOW?

Re money – have you called United Way yet – or whatever your country has? They have lawyers, too.

So what? It doesn’t matter to you if he WILL USE an IM. If he doesn’t, he doesn’t get his family back. IT IS THAT SIMPLE.

And honestly, at this point, I’ve got to ask you, are you sure you want this jerk back? Even if he ‘gives in’ he’ll just be laying in wait, waiting for the best time to make you pay for standing up for yourself. You can’t go back to him and ask forgiveness at this point, you’ll be no more than his slave. But even if he finally realizes how strong and smart you are, and gives in, it won’t change his abusive, controlling personality. He’ll get what he wants at some point, unless you specify that the two of you go through some major changes in your marriage.

Hon, this man scares me!

This is abusive, controlling behavior. Do you realize that people with those tendencies almost never become better, turn into nice guys who put other peoples' needs first? Why do you want this man? Do you want your kids to have this for a role model? I have another book for you to read when you're done with the others; may give you some perspective: Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men. Please read it so you'll know how to deal with his manipulation.

It only sucks because you’re not protecting yourself. Men expect women to be weak. That’s why he’s doing this, he expects you to give in under pressure. Prove him wrong! Show your children how strong their mother is! Every single time your IM contacts you, ask her 'is this life threatening? then I don't want to hear it'. Every time he gets through to you somehow don't even utter a single word. Shut the door, drive off, turn around, whatever you have to do. You have to have NO contact with him; don't let him get a single word in. If his family contacts you, say 'please contact IM; I cannot talk to you' and hang up.

And please go to your doctor to see about anti-depressants.

You can do this!

cat is absolutely right about this, 2Much. Your H was already extremely manipulative and feels entitled to do whatever he wants. You have only trained him that he can get what he wants that way. IT WORKS!

You are responsible for staying dark in Plan B, not him.

So many times I've worked with women who never should go back to their abusers. They can't see it. They so want the dream with THAT MAN, and somehow, they think their patience is going to change him into THAT MAN VERSION 2.0 (i.e. nice, gentlemanly, faithful, touch-nice, no angry voice, etc.)

2M - you are one of those women who really should go ahead and file for divorce. Because staying married to him is not going to make him the man you want to live with.

Think about how fatigued you are right now. Sequential stress is driving your body to the breaking point, and let's not get started about your mental health - that's gone. Landmark had the potential for giving you that peace, but you let him win this weekend - and you are his victim. It's his fault you don't have peace.

BAAAAAAA LOANNNN EEEEE!!

This is your responsibility. Get the restraining order and get it now. YESTERDAY. He needs consequences for his bullying. You don't want to be married to him if he's in the band with a woman. Period. He can't be faithful if there's one around. But it's not just about OW, is it.

It's his "King Baby" attitude where he hates you one minute, loves you the next. Wants the right thing for the kids, but treats you despicably.

Spell it out girlfriend! list the CONSISTENT admirable traits he's dishing out - and never takes them off the table. Those are the only traits worth listing. List the CONSISTENT bad traits he's dishing out. The ones that NEVER go off the table.

Truly - if you were me, what would you tell you to do?

I challenge you.

Name one GOOD thing he does CONSISTENTLY. Just one itty-bitty-one!

..

....

......

.........

Here's the definition if you need some help.

There's nothing to list is there?

Why be married to this?

Do you know what pisses me of THE MOST in this entire post?

It's you - thinking you don't have a choice.

You are making choices all along - the choice to roll over, show your belly and "hope" your guts aren't ripped out (again).

Every time you say "I don't have a choice" - you give yourself permission to return to your weakest most vulnerable position (and, may I add, your most familiar and most comfortable position - victim).

Yes, you choose victim every time you say "I have no choice."
Well, guess what? It may get you sympathy with some people, but it won't get you progress in your life.

The victim cannot be held responsible for events that happen. Helplessness is a choice. And, you get a payoff for that choice. You feel blameless. After all, you had no choice.

I'm calling you out on this and it may seem mean - but victims do not make good marriage builders. To be a good marriage builder a person must be responsible for his/her choices. The good marriage builder says "I'm making this choice because it follows this MB concept."

You need protection from your own victimhood, your chosen helplessness.

NEXT TIME you are tempted to lie to yourself and say: "I have no choice" --- replace it with "I am choosing to do this (whatever it is)". Even if your choice doesn't work out, at least you made a step to take responsibility for yourself.

I have been thinking of you over the weekend and come up with two things to share.

1. When he made the comment that you needed to “meet all his needs so he didn’t have to go elsewhere” it really made me angry. Once I calmed down, I realized that there is a huge, glaring problem with that. His #1 emotional need is for the “high” of a new R. If his #1 emotional need was for a pat on the back every day, you could do that. If he only needed a clean house every day, you could do that. But he has openly admitted that he likes the glow of a new R, and unfortunately, you can’t do that. There are lots of fun things you can do with your H to provide a spark of interest, but it will never be the glow of a brand new R. That is why he keeps bouncing around from woman to woman – as if we are all just some sort of object put on this earth to make him happy. I doubt that he ever sees the true heart of a woman. He only wants to see what is in it for him. What can SHE do for ME to make me feel special today. I just don’t see how you can live with that for the rest of your life. Frankly, there are just too many “new” women out there in the world.

2. At times you have made the comment that you want him to get back to the kind, loving man he used to be. I am going to challenge you on that statement. I do not think he was ever this kind, loving man that you long for. I think you had a vision of what he would become once you were married, and after you had children.

I wonder if your WH is the type of person who thrives on drama. Everything in his life needs to be really big. If he is happy – it is the best happiness ever. If he is sad – it is a deep depression that no one else has ever experienced before. When you were first dating – I wonder if he was the type to buy you gifts, send you flowery love notes, and tell you that you are the most beautiful woman to ever walk this fine earth? When you were in Singapore – did he act like he absolutely HAD to see you or he would die??? When it was time to get married, did he insist that you were his one true soul mate and as long as he had you in his life he could conquer the world???

If any of this sounds like him, then let me tell you that his actions were not a true, mature, love. His actions were a man who had a large physical and emotional attraction to a woman. I am sure he truly believes that as long as he married you, he would never feel the need to catch a “high” from a new relationship ever again. You would be his one and only, for ever and ever. Flowers, candy, and love letters every day, for always. Every love song ever sung would be for the two of you. He needed to see you, be with you, every minute of every day!!!

The problem , is that it is not reality. It is fantasy. It is the stuff that Disney movies are made out of. Mature love takes time, and it takes work. Mature love says “I enjoy being with you, but I know you have to work during the day to provide for our family. So please, go to work,and we will meet up again at the end of the day”. Mature love says “there is a 19 year old girl in the band who is cute and fun, but I am NOT going to get into a conversation with her, and I am NEVER going to call her mobile phone, because that would be disrespectful to my wife.

Your WH is not interested in mature love. He thinks he is too smart for that. I’ll bet he tells people he is a “romantic”, and he likes to shower his women with gifts.

You know what that really means? He likes the thrill of the hunt. He sees a woman, and he wants to have her. He must have her!!! He simply must!!!! So he throws all caution to the wind and leaves cute little notes for her, about how pretty she is when she smiles. And he buys her little presents – he doesn’t spend a lot of money, just little gifts to show he is thinking of her. He sends her text messages. And he tells her that she is so easy to talk to. No one else listens to him like she does. No one else understands him the way she does. He meets her for coffee in the middle of the night, because that is the only time they can get together, and he simply MUST see her face, her smile. He has had a hard day, and he needs to talk to her about it, because no one else would understand him like she does.

Problem is – didn’t he once tell you those same things?
Ah, but now I remember, he used to feel that way about you, but that was before you went and “ruined it all”. Now he can’t trust you, he can’t talk to you. Even his mother won’t talk to you.

I want to tell you that you did not do anything wrong. You did not ruin anything. If you hadn’t exposed his infidelity, if you had just kept his dirty little secret, he would have still maintained this wrong relationship with OW, and he would have still blamed you for it. He would have said that the reason he has to be “friends” with OW #1, and #2 and #3 is because you spend too much time with the kids, or you don’t look at him the right way, or because your hair is the wrong color.
Why? Because he needs the thrill of the new R. He needs to tell his secrets to someone new. Someone who does not know his past, so he can only share the bits and pieces that make him look good.

If you were to D him today, and he were to M this 19 year old girl – he will be looking for a new OW within a year. Because once he has won his conquest over, it isn’t much fun anymore.

I truly think that you need to be the adult here – the hero your children need. You need to get a child visitation plan in place. Something in writing. Do it now. Have a plan in place so that he can no longer threaten you. I don’t care how much money his brother has – he cannot buy custody of the children. If you take charge right now, today, you can get the plan in place and he can not threaten you any longer.

by the way, How is your family doing at this point?
You said that they have heard some of his choice language, how are they reacting?

BigK rises to his feet and gives Pep a standing ovation.

Bravo!!!!!

Wow - that's a lot to take in.

I will re-read it all soon and comment. I had a day off from work yesterday to sleep etc so need to make an effort here this morning.

I don't want to settle for less in life.

I do relish being the victim.

My payoff is that I try but it's not my fault that I fail.

WH did mention on the weekend that he will start to see a pscychlogist and M counsellor with me and thinks I should see an IC too.

I get that he wants to make the M work. He does not want the kids to grow up in a broken home. He wants to try.

I don't want to settle. I want my H at his greatest. No, his goodness was not always consistent, but we had a lot of good years. When his life is good with work, home life is great. When work dries up, he gets itchy feet. He is the most stable work-wise that he has ever been and definately since we've been married.

I will contact a solicitor today, have already got some numbers to call.

I will change my locks, locksmith is calling me back with a time.

I will send WH another PBL with new IM details.

I don't have a new IM yet. I cannot think of one strong male person that I would trust with this. My last IM didn't work out and I am worried - I thought she would see through his lies. I could potentially ask my Landmark forum seminar leader. He is not a "friend" but he might do it for me. However, he is divorced and remarried so I don't know if that's a good or bad thing. He has Christmas lunch with his ex-wife, her new H and all extended family.

I am after a short PBL to resend to WH.

Any tips?

Thanks everyone, I know you are all trying to give me the very best M I deserve, whether WH or someone new. I appreciate your honesty and your persistence.

I choose to have a better M.

I choose not to talk to WH again until he respects my boundaries.

I hope I work out what they are!!!

I just want to clarify - I want to try to save my marriage. I have an almost 2 year old and an almost 4 year old and I want them to know I tried to make it work with daddy. I don't want to have regrets and there really is a lot of me that thinks this can work and he can become a better H.

Pepperband, truer words were never spoken.

2much, the success of your Plan B and your marriage is all your own responsibility. It is not up to anyone else to protect your own boundaries. It is 100% your responsibility.

I think the problem with your IM is you, not her. She is a great gal with a spine of steel. However, she was led to believe BY YOU that she was free to allow your WS to dictate the terms of his return. That is not her fault or your H's. It is yours. I would stick with her but give her correct, accurate information this time. Your H should not be allowed to get away with calling her up screaming he wants to see the kids. You should have told her to tell him it wasn't going to be passed on, that he could swee the kids at the regular visitation. If she makes mistakes, you dont go along with it, you correct her. She will get it if you help her.

do not even think of going into M counseling with him right now. Tell him you appreciate the offer, but as long as he continues to see OW, M counseling is not going to help.

He just wasts to sit you down in front of a MC so that he can "talk some sense into you".
When you were going before your WH used it as his oppertunity to further beat you down. he even called you filthy names when the MC left the room. You did not gain anything - and only ended up feeling worse.

Until your WH has been in IC for months, you really can not benefit from MC.

I fear he is dictating the return at the moment. He told me he would not discuss R until I admitted to all the pain I had caused everyone, although he doesn't believe I am fit to be in a M.

Eeeek - more abuse.

But, I didn't go along with it. I just said I wanted to go back to no contact.

Do I just resend the PBL the way that it was written?

Should I write a paragraph to say that if my requests for no contact are broken or if he attempts to access the house, I will take out an intervention order against him?

My appointment with a solicitor is on Friday at 2pm.

I'll keep trying to find someone to see me earlier.

I just sent this to my IM:-

So, back to plan B.

If he mouths off to you, please tell him that you will not pass it on. He needs to see the kids at regular visitation and not demand to see them at a moments notice. If he is at the house, please tell him that you will contact me and I will call the police for an AVO. He cannot speak to me until he’s genuine. He needs to write a proposition to me if he wants to reconcile and I will consider it based on my boundaries, not his demands. I am prepared to be reasonable, but not with a moving target. It needs to be written so that he can’t change his mind as it suits him. One of the conditions of him coming back is that we stop making each other wrong and start to work on our marriage using a plan. He has pushed the boundaries with both of us and I feel like I have lost ground. I hope he will respect my wishes this time, but he is threatening to take me to court for visitation etc. I don't think that will happen before Christmas but I am in the process of appointing a solicitor to act on my behalf. I have forwarded you a new visitation plan so please pass it on to him. Thanks.

You don't need a solicitor to apply for an AVO. Go to the courthouse and see the chamber magistrate.

Hey BK - I you sure that my threatening to get one it isn't good enough? I really feel this could work against me and his family hate me now! I really think this could be bad. I so want to work on my marriage, not against it.

2Much, will you please ask your IM to discuss any attempts with ME? She and I can determine if he is sincere.

Have you sent him a visitation schedule where he can visit with the kids over at your parents?

Thanks ML. I will let her know.

I sent her an email today with the schedule for visitation but she's out for the day and won't be able to forward it until this evening.