That was a waste of good money



No, she an avid tramp.

Once they cheat on you while dating the only response should be an immediate dumping.

Don't even entertain a thought of marrying her unless you don't mind her spending most of her time away from you and on her back.

How long until you let JO do her in your bed?

Maybe you can hold their clothes for them and bring him a cold beer when he's finished with her?

You should seek immediate counseling.

Do you have a brother or father who could possibly smack you one?

HopeIsHopeless,

You are a college graduate???? How old are you?

There is NOTHING wrong with your girl friend. She is who she wants to be, and she is behaving in a way that pleases her. She seems to have always done that.

The problem is you. You are delusional.

1. You think you can change people, you cannot.

2. You make excuses for her, when there is no excuse, she is exactly where she wants to be, and who she wants to be, doing what she wants to do.


By what standards do you say she has a wonderful mind? She has not graduated HS and would rather hang with an unemployeed druggie than work on accreditation. Again she is doing exactly what she wants. Why should she change, to fit YOUR fantasy about her? Get real!

3. You believe who she is not.


She is NOT your best friend and if you really think this then you need to find a good dictionary and look up friend, you won't find her picture. She is not self-conscious, she will get naked for anyone. It is you that is self-conscious. YOu are projecting your traits on her.

4. You believe you can run peoples lives and make decisions for them.
It is not going to happen. She is having fun, she is enjoying what she is doing. She even enjoys telling you all about it to rub your nose in it, knowing that you seem to get off on it.

Boy, it is time you decided to become a man. A man knows his values and follows them. A man has his boundaries and adhere's to them. A man knows right from wrong and chooses right. A man understands his limitations, he cannot MAKE other people lead their lives as he would lead it for them.

Your GF has no problems if she did she would address them. You on the other hand have huge problems but you refuse to address them. Who needs the help?

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

I think JL's excellent post has a 90% chance of being ignored.

Oh, I don't know. I think the poster realizes that he needs to end the relationship, but is just coming to grips with it. He feels like he won't ever have another chance at love.

He isn't thinking into the future, where if he "WINS" her back, he might be in the same position with a couple of kids.

I'm not ignoring any posts... I'm just... naive, I guess... I know that everyone's posts are sticking in my mind, at least subconsciously (if one can be aware of one's subconscious, that is).


I'm 23, but I've always had an older mind than body.


Yeah, I'm probably delusional. You're right; I've always been the type to want to help others become better people, no matter what it takes or drains from me. I've always been self-sacrificing for even the slightest hope. I always try to see the best in people, even when all they show me is the worst. I believe everyone is capable of mistakes, no matter how severe, and they're always welcome to forgiveness for those mistakes as soon as they desire it and are willing to make amends for those mistakes. Everyone deserves a second chance, a third chance... and so on. People can change. From what I read of iam's posts in both this thread and others, he's a very negative person and appears to believe just the opposite.


Education has no correlation with a wonderful mind. Intelligence is a native trait, only expanded upon by further education. Intelligence cannot be learned, it is something you either have or you do not. She has it. Our conversations have always been rich and emotionally fulfilling. We're able to discuss everything from mundane events of the day to controversial hot topics, and she displays her intelligence through her conversation.


I disagree with you there. She is self-conscious. The fact that she's "getting naked for anyone" as you put it is her own personal affirmation that she is desired. It's not a healthy way to do it, but I've known many girls who do the same, and eventually, they come to their senses about it and feel regret.


I don't believe she tells me things to hurt me. As far as I'm aware, she doesn't have a reason to hurt me. I've been nothing but good to her (perhaps too good). She confides in me not as her ex-boyfriend, but as her friend.


I always thought I understood that until now. I've never been through such a harsh trial of my own convictions. As I've said previously, I always believed I would have zero tolerance for this. Little did I know how little I truly know myself...


I believe we both need the help. I know I have my faults. I know I'm acting irrationally. I know that if time travel were possible, my past and/or future selves would be berating me right now, telling me how stupid I am.

The thing is, I don't know what help I need, or where to get it. I never put myself first.

It's not so easy to just kick her to the curb for several reasons, both social and emotional (and in no particular order):
a) I miss her terribly already, and I don't know if I would be able to cope with her not being around at all any better than I'm able to cope with the status quo,
b) Our house would feel so empty by myself, without her or her cats around,
c) She's on the lease with me; we both signed a 1-year minimum lease, and there's 9 months remaining,
d) I fear for her and what may happen to her should we part ways, as I know she won't get any form of support anywhere else. She used to be a "cutter" in her childhood, and that stopped a long time ago. However, the first night she confessed things to me, I went to a friend's house for support. She sent me a text asking how things were going, and my friend responded for me telling her she had no right to ask me that and that I would come home when I was ready. She cut herself for the first time in years that night. The marks have finally subsided, and I know she hasn't done it since. I can't be so sure of her own mental state if she leaves, and I cannot feel sound about myself knowing that things may be worse for her even if they're better for me,
e) I've struggled with pangs of loneliness and depression since childhood. I've never sought counseling for it as I've always been afraid of what the counselor might say. I'm afraid of mood-altering medication because I fear I won't be "me". I've been able to handle my own thoughts and feelings by myself for over a decade now, and I cannot let them win this time.

There's so much more going on in my head... I just wish there was some way she could see things through my eyes. Words alone cannot fully explain how I feel.

Sorry for the double post, but you posted this while I was composing the last message.

You're right. I don't know if I'm ready to accept that I need to end the relationship entirely, but I'm coming to grips with accepting things won't change on their own.

Nonetheless, again, I thank all of you for being honest with me. The words are hard to read, but I truly do appreciate them. They're confirming what I already know deep inside but I'm reluctant to believe.

Cutting oneself is a deep seated issue.

You cannot save her from herself.

If you truly care about her welfare as a person and not as BF/GF, let her know you are willing to assist in getting help for her when she is ready. Until then, find living quarters somewhere without her and stop wasting your time. You've been told all the reasons why. You think she is great, but you're young and haven't seen what people like this woman become by the time they're 35. She'll no longer be attractive, she'll have kids by multiple fathers, still be shacking up with dead end losers, and still be looking for the next fix. Is there some possibility that she could change? Anything's possible, but not very likely. If she isn't motivated enough to get a HS diploma, she isn't motivated to do much of anything. By allowing her to remain in your life you're only hindering your potential to meet a truly wonderful person. Ms. Right could come any day, and you don't need to be in this tangled mess when she shows up. Put her in the rearview mirror, my friend, and don't look back. Nothing about her will change until she is ready to make it happen.

F--- me dead HIH,

I really feel for you son - you are being used, degraded, humiliated and played bigtime. And you know it, but feel utterly powerless to do anything about it. This is one of the most depraved situations I've come across; even more so than my own.


A girl that gets off on feeling like a whore, slag... hmmm....

This girl is an intoxicating and highly addictive drug for you - and very harmful.

You know what you have to do but I know from my own bitter experience how difficult it is. It's like trying to quite smoking or caffeine.

I was there myself 10 years ago. I had a Chilean girlfriend who was 3 years older than me (I was 22 at the time) and had previously been a stripper and a hooker in the past. She was highly intelligent academically, a brilliant conversationalist, filthy in bed and full of life. As you can imagine I fell very hard for her.

I was stupid beyond belief and had unprotected sex with her many times - then after about 2 months she wanted to sleep with other men.

This hit me like a truck. The next night she asked me to sleep on the floor so that one of her friends (male) who was visiting could sleep in the bed with her. In a rage I abused her verbally calling her every name under the sun (which was true) moved out and never spoke to her again. It took that for me to man-up and in hindsight I am very glad that she said this - it was the shock I needed to make me angry enough to overcome the fear.

What usually happens is that the situation slowly gets more and more deranged until you begin accepting something like that as "normal".

The first month or so of cutting her out of my life was absolute hell. I really did feel like I was withdrawing from a drug and even told friends of mine at the time that this was so.

I wanted to go back for "one more hit" so many times, and I would always be looking for her. I have no idea how I managed to resist but I did - and so can you.

After 1 month I still missed her but was starting to feel normal again and things just got better from there.

I still think about this girl ten years later but she is a ghost now, a dwarf star if you will. There are no feelings any more but the lessons do remain and I am very very grateful that I got out when I did.

Fast forward to my current situation:

I met my wife in July 1999; about five months after finishing it with this other girl.

We have had a wonderful marriage for the most part until January this year. With my WW I was the opposite and I became the dominant, arrogant, abusive and nasty one. I wasn't there for her when we miscarried twice last year and I put other things before her. I was very selfish and neglectful - so she started an affair with OM on 01/21/2008 and left me a week later. I have been Plan Aing her for about 8 months and she came back o live with me in May. OM is 10,000 miles away on the other side of the world.

The only reasons I have hung in there with my WW is the extreme guilt for my mistakes, 9 years of shared history and the fact that I had heretofore never seen my WW act in this way.

My WW is like your GF - she has a tremendous difficulty in letting me go, and a tremendously difficult time in saying a final "goodbye" to OM. I have no idea how my situation will pan out, so far WW has had ample opportunities to leave me and go back to OM but for whatever reason she hasn't. She knows that she would never see me again - when I cut off all contact for 3 weeks with her she started feeling "lost" and "scared" and like a "part of her was missing". I have no idea how my situation will pan out - if OM lived in the same town I know I would have entered Plan B months ago, and WW would have probably done everything to keep me in the loop.

Listen HIH - get your GF to leave the apartment now. It doesn't have to be forever but you need to have no contact with her at all for at least 2 months. The first month will be hell but livable and after 2 months you will question whether you want her back at all. You're not even married to her. Get the books off the internet by David D'Angelo or David Cunningham and learn how to be an alpha-male that naturally attracts females.

And get "Psychocybernetics" by Maxwell Maltz and do the 21 day exercise to work on your self-image. It will work wonders for you once you're over the worst of withdrawl from your GF. This book is incredible.

Good luck my friend
GH31

Just as helping people is YOUR affirmation that you are desired. Read any self-help book and it will tell you that people with low self-esteem assume no one wants to be around them; they then go in one of two ways - they tell the world to F off, they don't need anyone, or else they try to become the most helpful, caring person in the world - to everyone but themselves. The thank yous they get when they help people, they associate this with being liked, it feels good, so they keep on doing it.

You've probably spent your whole life looking for wounded people to hook up with just so you can be their savior. But here's the rub. Wounded people are wounded because THEY want to be. Just like you want to be the savior, they want to be the victim; it's their shield against the world. Therefore, nothing you do is going to matter, because they aren't going to give up who they are.

So you are dooming yourself to a lifetime of false gratitude from people who don't really like you, but they feed off of your need to please and help people.

Like everyone says, she will NOT change. Has no reason to.

All you are doing is making a fool of yourself.

As for help, all you have to do is go online and search for a psychologist, and start visiting! They do not prescribe medicine, but they know just as much about people as psychiatrists - therefore all they do is find out why you are the way you are and how to get you out of it.

Go online tonight, and find a local psychologist.

Oh, and kick the 'girl' out.

HIH,

You said Tell that to the SAT folks or the college admissions boards. There is a term that is considered to be an anthema [discrimination] that is actually the mark of intelligence. The ability to "discriminate" is the mark of intelligence. It is what we teach our children. Certain behaviors lead to bad outcomes, other behaviors lead to good outcomes. An intelligent person can discriminate good actions from bad ones. Your GF is NOT intelligent, her mind is untrained and she is making bad very bad decisions.

If you didn't believe this you would not be trying to "save" her. You are. People only change when they decide to and as my father used to tell me "the two great motivators in life are greed and fear." Find out what someone wants and what they fear and you will have an understanding of their motivation. If they appear to be motivated by neither, stay away from them they are dangerous.

You are trying to protect her from the consequences of her actions and yet it is those very consequences that may well turn her around and have her reevaluate her decisions and motivations.

Son, you are harming this girl by trying to save her. She has to hit bottom before she will be willing to accept help or guidance. You must let her.

God Bless,

JL

What catperson said. This describes your relationship to a tee. We are older than you and have seen this relationship play out a million times.

HIH,

I got a lot of help from the people on these boards so I will chime in here a little if thats alright.

I must say that in the 8 months or so I have been reading these boards I have not come across a situation quite as horrid as yours. I am sorry if that hurts your feelings, because I don't mean to be ugly.

YOU are engaging in a horrible pattern of SELF-abuse. It is your decision to allow this. I know how you feel, I waffled a lot as well, but what JL says is so true, you cannot "save" this person, she has to hit rock bottom. She will never respect you under the current circumstances. IF, for some reason, you ever wanted her back, the only way that can happen is if you kick her out. From the sounds of this JO person, she will hit bottom very quickly.

You are in a lot of danger here. JO is losing interest and you are on the verge of taking her back out of her necessity for lodging and food. At this point that will be the only reason she returns and this scenario will happen again repeatedly.

Look what happened the only time you "stood up for yourself" by going out without her. She cried on the phone, texted you repeatedly etc.

This one, I think, is easy to predict.

1.You will tell her to leave and take her stuff.
2. She will cry and beg you not to do this and make all sorts of promises. She will then get angry and stomp off to JO's.
3.JO will NOT be happy as he doesn't want her to live with him and will make her miserable.
4. She will realize what she has done and call and text you incessantly wanting to come back, because for the first time she will have a shred of respect for you.

THAT is when YOU are in control. It will feel wonderful. THEN you have YOUR conditions for her return, IF, you want that. Make a list of non-negotiable items.

Either that or she never comes back, which I think would be better for you in the long-run anyway...

My WW didn't have an ounce of respect for me until I cut off her money and started truly demonstrating to her that since I couldn't control her actions I wasn't going to sweat it anymore. She was kinda like your girlfriend. Smokin' hot and knows it and maybe got off a little bit on torturing me.

When I truly showed her I was moving on, she noticed big time and started to wake up. For me, I think it may be a little too late though, might be for you too, I don't know.

I do know this. If you don't kick her out she will torture you like this the rest of your life and you will never truly be the man that you really are.

SWW,
Its good to hear from you. How are you doing these days? You sound like you are in a good place mentally. Are you still in Plan B or proceeding to Plan D?

Sorry T/J; I'll post. thanks.

HH
With all respect, you are just a pup. A beautiful girl can really turn your head- she obviously plays on your feelings of insuferiority >sp?.

Believe me, you will grow as you get more older and confident in your abilities and talents-- happens!

I am afraid that you will look back at this point and you will HATE HER for what she put you through.

HH re read this post. You can not change her- the best advice you can take is that you don't need to continue to try to fix her of this mess.

I know single women-- dozens of them- who would give teeth to have a boyfrien/husband who is so thoughful.

But you know what-- most women (who are well adjusted) DON"T like doormats.

You seem very smart-- use your noodle.

Okay, so I fully intended on posting this message on Friday, but by the time I was done, the website was down and I couldn't access it for the rest of the day. I'll follow this one up with another more recent one:
======================

I want to start by saying that I appreciate some of the new people just joining this thread in their thoughts that my situation is one of the uglier and harder ones they've seen. Obviously I wish that wasn't the case, but it's nice to know that I'm not making a mountain out of a molehill here. And to assuage some people's thoughts that they're being too harsh with words and fear of offending me, you're not. One of the things I value and respect most is brutal and blunt honesty. There's no point in softening the blows.

Sorry I've been gone the last few days (or whenever I posted last - time goes by so slowly these days). Nothing's really changed. She didn't spend any time with JO during her days off beyond what I've already mentioned above, and she hasn't seen him since, but I know that she usually stops by to see what he's up to after work.

Surprisingly, she brought up conversation last night about part of the situation. I've always been the one who initiates, so it was surprising for it to come from her. She mentioned that she thinks things may have been different - with strong emphasis on the MAY, because there's no way of knowing - had my friends accepted her. She always felt disliked and disapproved of by my "friends", and it's true. She was. I fought my hardest to try convincing them otherwise, or to at least compromise and accept our relationship, but they never did. It came to the point that I actually sacrificed my friendship with the others involved such that our interaction with each other was limited to group recreational activities. We hardly talked about anything that wasn't directly related to our shared hobby, and the few times we tried "friend" type activities, I had to ignore a major part of my life - my girlfriend - just to get along with them because they never had anything good to say. I had to pretend she didn't exist, which put me in an impossibly difficult position.

All this came up because one of those friends called me last night to ask how I was doing (she knows the important details, though I've been confiding in her less and less because all she has to say are "I told you so"s), and it brought back my ex's emotions about it.

I piggy-backed on top of that conversation and told her that I felt disrespected and hurt every time she goes over to JO's, that if me talking to my friend reminded her of her anger toward that situation, imagine how I must feel since it was a considerably deeper betrayal and much more recent. She didn't really have much of a response. She said that with the way I talked about her and JO, it was as if they were dating. I asked her to define what exactly marks the difference between the status she's currently in with him and what would classify it as dating, to which her only response was that they're "not exclusive". In a sense I guess I'm trying to help her realize how I'm seeing things. I don't know if it's helping, or if it's even working, but it's either that or keep my mouth shut, and that definitely won't change anything.

She was at home when my first two books came in - Fall in Love, Stay in Love and His Needs, Her Needs - apparently her coworker (the one I confided in previously, asking for advice) has the HNHN book and she's heard of the Harleys through her. I was surprised.

I'm going to be away from home most of the weekend, involved in activities without her. I'm going to try to stay away from home and her as much as I can to see how she reacts. I've gone the last few days without initiating any interaction (no texts, no hugs, etc.). I respond only to what she initiates. She hasn't been affectionate except for a morning hug and kiss on top of the head when she leaves for work, but she's been pretty talkative.

A little out of order because I'm very jumbled, but that last point actually brings up some irony. She browsed through the ToC for HNHN and without reading anything placed SF and Affection as her top ENs (enough acronyms for you?), but one of her bigger complaints was that I was too affectionate sometimes, and she's never been too outwardly affectionate, though she's had spikes of it. I've left the books out on the living room table, both for easy access for me, and somewhat in hopes she feels inspired to pick them up and learn a thing or two.

Regarding previous suggestions at professional help, well, simply put, I can't right now anyway. I've only just become eligible for my company's health insurance and filled out the forms a few days ago. I'm not sure what they cover (I'll get the info booklet soon), and that's important because I know how expensive those services can be. I can't afford it out of pocket as I have ~$20,000 of debt I'm already trying to pay off, including my student loans which start their repayment period next month. Even though I'm making considerably more money than I was prior to my graduation and this job, my spending hasn't increased much and I'm still trying to be frugal so I can get that debt paid off ASAP.

So for the time being, the best I can do is vent to my closest friends and also anonymously on forums like this just to keep my peace of mind.

Thank you all,

There are also forums that offer psychological advice. Look for some of those.

And now for the weekend update post:

I was gone most of Friday and Saturday, but bad weather hit (first snow of the season) and my plans for Sunday were canceled. She doesn't have much driving experience (getting her license and a car were two of the many things I've helped her achieve in this last year), so I drove her to and from work on Sunday because neither of us felt safe with her driving on snowy and icy roads.

She has today off. After spending a significant amount of the day together due to my canceled plans and the weather, she decided to go out to JO's to party since it had been a while. She could tell I wasn't happy about it, so she asked me what was wrong.

That's when the talk came.

I opened with a simple "something needs to change". The conversation lasted nearly two hours, and none of it was really heated - no raised voices and no yelling - but I finally came out with everything that needed to be said.

I told her how I felt betrayed and disrespected, especially so whenever she goes over to JO's, and for reasons I hoped were obvious. I told her that when I came home a few Fridays ago from the comedy show and she was wearing one of my shirts and told me she missed me that I melted. I thought something was about to change. She said that she felt that way largely because I was out with someone she despises and who really hurt her; I cut her off at that point and said that was *exactly* my point, and *exactly* how I felt when she went over to JO's, only stronger because my friend only destroyed a friendship or two, whereas JO destroyed something so much more and much more recently.

I told her I felt like she was using me, that I was tired of being a doormat, and that I felt as though I was enabling the very behavior I was hoping would go away. She got upset and a little teary-eyed. She told me she was incredibly insulted that I feel that way, and insisted she's not using me. I responded by telling her that I still love her, and it's an incredible mental torture every time she goes over to JO's because I know what happens over there. She responded, trying hard to fight back tears, telling me that she still loved me, but it came back to her argument that she's not ready to settle down.

I told her that as long as she continued to live with me, I can't help but to support her as best as I can, and that my supporting her only enables and enforces her current behavior. I mentioned that it would be best if she found a new place to live. She responded with a little bit of anger, asking me where she was supposed to go. I didn't have an answer.

The conversation continued, and I brought everything into the light. I told her that deep down she knows as well as I do that JO and his circle of friends don't respect her as a person, that they only view her as a sexual object. This was evidenced by a text message she received on Friday night from the guy who had second thoughts about their "fooling around" -- there was a party at JO's that night and she intended to go, but couldn't make it due to weather. He tried his hardest to convince her to go anyway, and eventually sent her a very forward message something to the effect of "now come jump on this c**k". She shared many of these messages with me as they came in - I wasn't snooping. To drive my point home further, I asked her if he'd ever talked to her and asked her just to hang out to go see a movie or something without sexual undertones. She claimed he has, but I know from my snooping that he hasn't, and I could hear in her voice that she wasn't convinced of it either. I continued that it was even more evident that they viewed her as a sexual object and that JO didn't actually care for her, because if he did he would have never allowed the other two guys to fool around with her simultaneously that night. I also brought up that it was evident to me that JO was already losing interest in her, and I was blunt in saying that he doesn't view her as anything more than just another notch in his bedpost, just "a recurring party f**k".

She confronted me, saying she had no way of knowing if my attraction to her was simply because of her body just like the other guys, and I responded in kind by telling her how much I respect her mind, and gave her several examples of how proud she made me whenever she actually applied herself to something. I went on about that for a while, then she eventually smiled and asked how the conversation turned "from insulting her and belittling her self-esteem to complimenting her". I told her it was because I never intended to insult her, and that anything I said which lowered her self-esteem wasn't anything NEW - I was just putting a new light on it. The actions were her own; I simply provoked deeper thought and reflection about them.

It also turns out my initial suspicions were right about what caused all of this. She confessed that at one point, she had a revelation that she saw our relationship leading to marriage, and it scared her. She says that she's going through this phase she's in now (yes, she admitted it was a "phase") because of her fear of sharing a bed with the same person for the rest of her life, and she's afraid of "being stuck in a miserable marriage". In hindsight, her parents had a very miserable marriage when she was growing up which resulted in suspected infidelity and eventually cheating, so I can understand why she's afraid of that. It might even explain some of this. She reinforced that she still loves me, but she's afraid to think she might be "settling", afraid that there might be someone better out there. I told her that everyone experiences this fear when thinking about marrying someone - I have several married friends, and almost every single one of them went through the same feelings. I reinforced that I knew she wasn't ready for marriage yet, and I'm not really either, but I did tell her that I could have seen it happening between us down the road. She agreed, which again is what frightened her and is the basis for a lot of this rebellious behavior.

Regardless, she still went out to JO's, though this time had a different feeling to it. I don't know if anything we discussed actually got through to her or if any of it helped, but I asked her to let me know when she got there because of the bad weather and her inexperience in it. She did, but I didn't respond to it. Nearly an hour later, she sends me another message asking me if I got her first one, to which I finally responded in the affirmative. Not long after that, she started sending me more messages telling me about things that were going on at the party, and how one of JO's friends is willing to give her guitar lessons (something she's been wanting for a while - she's pretty good already and is completely self-taught). Normally, when she goes over there I'm completely ignored. She didn't come home last night, but this time she told me up front that she wouldn't be because she knew the weather would be even worse by the time she was ready to end the night, and she wasn't sure if she'd be drinking or not.

Before she left, I made sure to reinforce that things can't continue as they are, that something has to change, whether it's her moving out or deciding not to see JO anymore and getting out of this "phase". I have my doubts it'll be the latter, but I told her that this last month has been an unbelievable mental torture for me and I can't continue it for much longer.

That was by far the hardest conversation I've ever had. I guess we'll see what happens tonight.