Be prepared for the brutal honest feedback from these folks on the MB boards. Get proof so you know 100%, but honestly man it is already 100%, she is having the A. Just like everyone else i would say you need to Expose, but sounds like it has been somewhat in the open the last 2 times.

You sound like me; only better I think 3rd time you need to pick up the pieces and move on.

88life

Donal,

Your situation is very similar to Hogfan, which is another current BH here at MB. Please read his thread and do the exact opposite of his (in)actions.

Honestly, you don't really have a M to save, and should get your mind around the concept of preparing for D.

BIG QUESTION: Do you live in a "No Fault" divorce state?

The reason I ask, is if you do, then you may want to go ahead and get the intelligence you need to prove the A ... if not, then proceed directly to Plan D.

Find the attorney in your area with the reputation as the meanest, nastiest, most ruthless in divorce proceedings, then retain them and use your WW's "fog" to negotiate a very favorable custody and settlement agreement, while she is NOT thinking properly. You have a window of opportunity, while she is still very fogged out, and doesn't expect you to be proactive.

Right now, she feels SUPERIOR and considers you a WIMP ... USE THAT TO YOUR ADVANTAGE.

I know it feels like crap right now, but get your mind right and see things for what they truly are ... you have a multiple cheating WW, who has lost ALL respect for you ... your chances of being able to recover a happy and fulfilling M are basically nil.

Now is the time for CLEAR thinking and ACTIIONS. Please don't find yourself in the same place as Hogfan ... emasculated and humiliated by your WW, and paralyzed by your own fears, while your children suffer through this abuse of their father, and learn to emulate their mother's behavior.

Donal,

Not only is she having an affair, but she basically having you hold her hair for her while she....well, you get the idea.


This is another "outsider looking in" opinion, but in my opinion you shouldn't bother with snooping, Plan A, Plan B, any of it.

Given her history and how she's treating you now, just file for divorce.

Unless you are one rotten s.o.b., you deserve better.

Good grief - for want of a better phrase!!

I am in the mode of having a Good Marriage to a Wonderful Woman who is out of touch right now & Will be Back when she wakes up or she may chose to leave. I certainly will take every avenue available to give our family the best shot at life first.

_________________

Right Now - there is NO Tangible anything to say there is another person in her life.

DVR, Keylogger on laptop, Being Followed - to date have revealed nothing of any other person being involved.

_________________

I did have a vent here on this site last night
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2173618#Post2173618

& that was all it was an expression of the anxiety levels I let happen to myself - which proved unfounded.
_________________

THIS APPEARS TO BE A WAYWARD STATE OF MIND
with the Behaviours
& this is where I'm confused

- WITHOUT AN ACTUAL OP.

Geeze I think I've just copped that it could be internet related - then I've not found anything on laptop, haven't managed to install spyware on winmob phone yet - that's today.

________________

Jim thanks did the sim reader - nada results - which is a relief.

________________

I did read Hogfans thread - man he is swirling around in denial - if I had anything other than feelings & my wife not being nice to me to go on I know I would act immediately.

_______________

I have done the grab the phone thing a few times - it simply made me the enemy not the friend & fk me showed nothing untoward.

_______________

I don't think I am in denial about anything.

I am dealing in facts as they are.

Beautiful wife behaving like she's in an affair, without being in one! Crazymaking behaviour for sure.

I am doing the best I can to be resonable while dealing with this mindboggling situ.

I have confronted her with what I feel - duh - & I simply don't know if she's being honest. My gut instinct says "prove it", which I am trying to do.

______________

I am not a wimp by any standards btw, nor an emotional cripple, nor a bully. I am a man who wants his wife to get back with the programme of being engaged in our marriage by her own free will (with a little or a lot of help/nudging in the right direction) or leave. I will not live in limbo land - it is unacceptable.

_______________

I have rang for a mediator to prepare a seperation agreement.
She has received a letter from the mediator asking her to ring them for a joint appointment. She hasn't even mentioned recieving that letter.

The next step in this regard is for her to confirm with the mediators her intent to go forward with a seperated agreement.

I feel this is a very dangerous step I have taken, the risk is real & I have to accept that I've put this ball in motion.

I thought this is to actually call her bluff - if she really wants out I will not stand in her way, also I wanted to show her I am serious too - I will not stay in a half-hearted relationship.

She has NOT contacted the mediators, yet.

_______________

FYI we live in Ireland.
Divorce takes 4years of absolute seperation, with no chance of reconcilliation. It goes in degrees, unless there is violence or adultery, you get asked to prove you've attended counselling & done everything possible to make it, then you sign a seperation agreement, & must live apart for 4years.

With regards settlements We have a very good law "The Family Home" cannot be sold or disposed of without the consent of both parties, & usually not until the dependent children have reached the age of consent or have left fulltime education (I'm sending ours to college so that'd be when their about 23years old )

_______________

I recognise I am varying between a freeloader & a renter at the moment - thanks to Pepperband's "Compusive Giver" thread.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2111375#Post2111375

I do have to step up to buyer material.
______________

What else could I be doing right now?

I've been reading (boy who hasn't), anyway it's Resonance thread "Inside the wayward mind" http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2029218#Post2029218

"Inside the Wayward Mind, part 3:
The distorted and hopefully TEMPORARY "logic" of the wayward...

Unfortunately, for most WSs, THAT is the state of existence they remain in, even if the M is salvaged to the point of somewhat peaceful co-existence. It is then the feeling of the wayward that "I have done everything I can... "

That's what I believe we have...

Now what???

Hi Help please.

I am not happy living as we are.

There is still NO actual evidence of other person.

The Behaviours indicate there is another/secret life going on.

I am ready to have this out on the table.

What would you recommend I expect from my spouse?

WE handled or last post A wrong so this is it the biggie, we have to get this one right.

No person to name.
Only behaviours as indicated.

I am not going to live like this anymore.

REady for frankness.

Donal.

I'm sorry, but you're EXACTLY like Hogfan. You KNOW an A is ongoing, but you half-heartedly search for "proof", and won't allow yourself to admit the obvious until you find it.

Since you don't find the "proof" you seek ... there is no A.

Your WW is tech-savy and you're not ... she has the experience of previous A's and has gotten VERY good at hiding them (yes, "them" ... plural) ... and you admit your weakness to stand up to her.

You have an opportunity to use her "fog" against her to secure a better future for yourself ... are you willing to ACT???

SERIOUSLY, the advice you receive will depend on your willingness to ACT NOW ... are you willing???

If not, then you are BEING Hogfan and condemning yourself to a life of limbo he11.

YOU MAKE THE CALL!!!

Ok Rev load em up I'm ready to fire.

What do you sugg?

I want our marriage to recover & be waaaaaayyyy better.
I have to accept my spouse may not.

Tonight I intend to set out a standard that is acceptable to both of us.

I want to raise this bar so bloomin high, we'd be yunno.

I feel at this point she's either all in or all out, I'm not up for anything less than the best.

The fact that you live in Ireland with a 4 year waiting period does present a problem, but you have to take back some measure of control over your life.

Have you actually spoken to an attorney and gotten advice on how to proceed to expedite the D?

If you can prove adultery, how long does it take for a final decree of D?

Can you use her previous adulteries to support your case in Ireland?

Since she has the technological upper hand, can you afford a Private Investigator who has the tools to unravel her activities?

Give us a little more info and we'll go from there.

I would advocate D, but its your life and your call.

If you want to save this M and YOUR self-respect, I am also a huge advocate of ultimatums. Lay out your best case ... DON'T BEG OR PLEAD, you will only look weak and unattractive ... and then ask her point-blank, "are you in or out ... ME OR HIM ... You make the call RIGHT NOW".

If she chooses you ... INSIST on NC and Full Transparency IMMEDIATELY.

If she chooses anything else, including more time to think ... tell her to pack her bags and leave the marital home RIGHT THEN.

Regardless of the answer, watch your WW's opinion of you IMPROVE. She may get mad, but she will also gain a measure of respect for your stance.

I agree 100%.

MEDC & Rev that's exactly where I am.

This thing is going end one way or the other.

No more pussyfooting around.

She's in or out.

Now.....if she is in

tHe content???

What do I want from her -

to raise the bar higher??

Double Ditto.

And if she chooses OM then use that 'fog' to gain the advantage in any custody and settlement.

Good for you ... MOST BH's don't have the testicular fortitude for ultimatums ... I'm glad you're taking action.

To answer your question, let's keep it simple ... if she chooses you and the M, then look for signs of remorse and repentance. Without these qualities, you don't stand much of a chance of a successful R anyway.

If you see these qualities, then get back with us and we'll offer up suggestions that each of us used in setting our own partiuclar bar's "HIGH" for our WW's. Then, you can pick and choose the one's that fit your situation and adapt them to your circumstances.

DON'T BEG OR PLEAD, you will only look weak and unattractive ... and then ask her point-blank, "are you in or out ... ME OR HIM ... You make the call RIGHT NOW".

If she chooses you ... INSIST on NC and Full Transparency IMMEDIATELY.

If she chooses anything else, including more time to think ... tell her to pack her bags and leave the marital home RIGHT THEN.

Ok got that will do.

Any pointers??

We screwed up the last time we got back together after an affair. Didn't know what to do to protect ourselves.

This is it, 3 strikes (shaking my head) I still love this person.

I have to respect myself too, & be a model for the kids in future relationships.

What am I going to insist on as essential non-negotiables?

Absolute zero contact.

Passwords to all accounts.

Full disclosure under a polygraph.

But I'm betting she tries to stall you and you likely won't follow through.

1st, I think you need complete HONESTY from her. Who is Other Man or Men? What was the extent of the current A(s)?

NO CONTACT with OM for LIFE.

Complete transparency ... you should get access on demand to cell phone, email, computer, including ALL passwords.

A vow of recommitment to the M from HER.

I beg to differ. First, you work, come home, clean, cook, raise kids, whatever else, while your wife lives the life of a prima donna. NO woman is going to respect a man who does THAT much in the relationship. It's just human nature to either (1) lose respect for him for being too needy or (2) hate herself for letting you do everything. Either way, your loss. Start dividing up the work.

Second, you're married to a (wonderful?) woman who chooses to be a serial cheater - meaning she DOES NOT LOVE YOU. Yet instead of being angry, instead of putting your foot down, insisting on your rights as her husband, demanding an explanation, you stand around, wring your hands, ask her what else you can do to make her happy so she won't leave you, and let her pretend you don't suspect anything.

Exactly what 'following' have you had done? Did you actually hire a PI? One that will investigate her at her work? Because that's where it's going on, and you know it. One who will follow her on this trip with a camera?

Did you install a voice-activated recorder under the seat of her car so you can have proof of her talking to him? Why not?

Have you called her mother and told her it's happening again? Why not? You don't need proof, you need knowledge. And given you've already been through this twice, no one is going to doubt that you know the symptoms.

What exactly are you doing to stop the affair and stop being a wimp?

btw, hogfan isn't in denial. He's just too much of a wimp to stand up to his wife.

Donal,

I differ from the gentlemen who have posted to you in that I do not agree that BH's are a different case than BWs. The "Ultimatum" advice is not really consistent with MB principles.

However, I think I could have/should have been a lot more dramatic in my own case, and went through 2 years of multiple D-days before the A finally ended. (I confronted and gave ultimatums, and it just kept going further underground.)

Let's see if I have this correct. You know that your W has a huge problem with independent behaviors (IB.) This is a pretty-near universal wayward trait.

Unfortunately in today's world it is considered the norm for married people to have a truckload of independent behaviors. People don't see this as a problem until they get hit by the infidelity bus. At the very least your W is thinking like a single person, not a M person.

You know you could do phone counseling with the Harleys, don't you? They do such a great job of teaching people how to make their marriages happy for both partners. They've seen this behavior many times.