No need to explain, I was 35 once (I think).

Not everyone changes for the better, sounds like you have though. You have just a bit more work to do, and you need someone to put your husband back on the right road. Make the call.

Mr. G

Something has to change. I would use the suggestion in Dr Harley's article.

Ahuman,

Seems like there are a couple of things happening in your marriage.

Maybe the two of you have fallen back into some old patterns - perhaps some that were in place prior to the affair? The idea that your H is behaving in a manner that is not communicative leads me to believe he doesn't fully appreciate his role in the status of the marriage immediately prior to the affair.

If he doesn't understand that, then he hasn't done his share of the work in evaluating what he can do to fix the relationship.

To me, it seems like he wants to put it all in your lap and walk away, expecting you to somehow fix him and put it all back together. The fact is, you cannot do that - he has to contribute, because he contributed to the problems in the marriage, and is doing so right now.

You own the affair, 100%, and it's good that you take that. But he owns some things, too - he needs to acknowledge what he owns.


There also may be other things happening, which have nothing to do with the affair. At some point, he has to understand that EVERYTHING is not related to the affair. Sometimes you really ARE disagreeing about the trash or dirty dishes, and not about the affair - and it is not fair, helpful, or constructive for the relationship to use the affair in those situations.

When you two are not involved in any kind of problem, bring it up and lay it on the line. Tell him that you will no longer accept his using the affair against you in disagreements or arguments that have no bearing on the issue, PERIOD. Tell him that his time is up for this, and that if he would like to talk about this in detail, you would love to discuss the affair and the issues related to it, including his anger and resentment. However, he is no longer permitted to utilize that anger and resentment against you in situations unrelated to the affair, and you can and will call "unfair" in the future if he attempts to do so. Tell him that your reaction in the future will be to say, "No, you cannot use the affair issue in this case. Please choose an appropriate argument regarding this issue, or we will no longer talk on this topic." AND STICK TO IT - walk away if you must, but force him to talk about the topic at hand in an adult way. Do not lose your temper, do not get angry, but stick to your guns on this. He has to understand that the issue is quarantined, and you are being treated unfairly.


You can have the discussion calmly - and you need to have the discussion calmly - in order for this to be effective at all.

Calm, rational discussion. If you can't be calm, put it in writing, in very loving terms. LOVING TERMS. No anger, no resentment, no mean-spirited words. If you come across as mean, you LOSE.


The discussion must come from love - and you CAN do this.

Believe it or not, he probably will thank you for it. He probably WANTS to stop himself, but has fallen into this pattern and cannot stop it. If you talk to him and spell it out for him (put your foot down...with slippers on) he will most likely stop it.

Then, get out the Emotional Needs Questionnaire. Sounds like the two of you are off-track, and need to get back on the train.

Ahuman,

It took me longer than five years to get over my spouse's affair. I think what caused my ability to get over it was recognizing that I was not to blame for what he did. All that anger and hatred towards him was my way to communicate to him just how much he hurt me so he wouldn't again. I blamed myself for not getting the message to him before he hurt me.

I can only tell you my story, not get inside your husband's mind. What struck me about your story was his saying that he shouldn't have to be in the position of not being able to trust his wife or breaking up the family. He has no hope, and his anger reveals that lack of hope.

I read words of John Paul II that really helped me. They were: "The man loves, and the woman loves in return." Even as a married woman with children, it is not my place to chase after my husband. I withdrew from him. I only responded to him but did not initiate. Harley's program is based on the concept that both the wife and the husband need to put forth effort to create a great marriage. There isn't anything on who initiates but only on meeting of needs which generally are different for men and woman. As the person who was trying so hard to recover the marriage, with my husband dragging his feet and blaming me for being a terrible wife, I was definitely the one pushing. I just felt so masculine, and it felt very degrading. You had the affair, and I didn't, but I felt guilty like you did. I look back at pushing and trying to get us better and I just think of one word -- degrading.

You have the problem of infidelity on your part, and you have the problem of anger on his part, but I think the deeper problem may be a role reversal for male and female.

I guess I would recommend that you just back off. Don't try to create a perfect marriage. When he is nasty to you, get away from him. Let him come to you.

If he is breaking things, he's getting close to being physically abusive. It's good you came to MB. You don't deserve how he treats you today no matter what you have done. No one deserves it no matter what they have done.

I would like to add that I deeply regret the way I reacted to his affair. I wish I could go back in time and erase all the hysteria and the anger and the time that was not spent in positive ways, but I cannot. Your husband may feel that way someday, too. Only he can come to that point.

Try the book "Why Does He Do That?"

Cherished

Cherised, Mr G, Melody, Believer, Schoolbus,

Thank you all for taking the time and sharing your wisdom.

I will call today to make an appointment with the Harley's. We filled out the EN questionnaire a long time ago, I will do it again and ask him to do the same. Needs change sometimes.

This blog is a terrific ressource!

Many of you have hit the nail on the head I think. Part of this issue comes from pre-A behavior. My As just amplified pre-existing behavior and have provided a crutch or shield from having to deal with that.

I cant really speak for my BH, but it feels he has not recommitted--other than not leaving, which is not enough. I cannot carry the M for both of us.

Thanks again!

...and I send you all my best wishes for health and happiness in this new year!

Cheers.

Let us know how things work out.

Mr. G

What do you do when you observe this? Do you think you notice every time he "triggers."

Others comments may be right on. He may be being abusive.

I also think it's possible that his outburst are a function of "stuffing" things down, which is also a big cause of anger/resentment.

I would imagine the average BS "triggers" about 10 times a day. I would also guess that the average BS says absolutely nothing about those triggers. Probably because there is no point in "ruining the day", and also probably because they don't trust their FWS's with being "okay" with them expressing their feelings.

I think the average FWS notices very few of these "triggers". But they notice some. I would also think that most FWS's don't say anything about the ones they notice. Probably because they also think there is no point in "ruining the day" and also probably because frankly, they are just hoping it will go away if they just don't bring it up anymore.

Finally, I think most BS's notice when their FWS notices them being triggered.

IMHO, this pattern can go on and on. While the BS is stuffing down the triggers everything seems fine. But eventually all of this culminates in moments where the BS explodes.

I think rprynne described exactly how I feel and probably how your H feels as well. I get triggered a lot. I honestly wish I didn't but can't seem to stop the triggers. They are everywhere. And talking about the A non stop is not the best way to spend everyday. And I know my W doesn't enjoy talking about it. It is a constant reminder for her. Understandable. But stuffing it down does not help. It does build up resentment. I think you really need to talk about things - even if its the same thing or question over and over again. I wish that's one thing WS would understand the most - The need for BS to sometimes hear the same things about the A over and over again. It almost seems like self-inflicted torture but I think it helps us to make sure the WS is truly being honest. Also - WS answers change over time and asking the same question at different times give the BS an insight into how the WS is currently thinking and also how they viewed the A.

Ahuman,

My thought as I read the thread is when he "triggers" and goes through the tantrum, or gets depressed, or lashes out....what is your response?

Do you go to him, give him hugs and reassurances? Stroke his head and say everything will be OK? Show him your commitment to him with intimacy?

If so, then I would suggest you are rewarding the behavior and you have a kind of vicious cycle happening. And it sounds like, with the breaking of the item and the tantrum, things are getting worse!

IMHO

kirk

A great many very important things left unsaid in this thread. After all the indulgent head-patting perhaps a tiny bit of reality is called for?

On the other hand, he carried your marriage by himself all the years of your multiple adulteries. How many years was that? Perhaps the most elementary and simple justice would be you carry the M for at least as many years as he did on principle, and then even a couple more as interest.

It is often said around here it takes the typical BS two years or as long as the adultery lasted, whichever is longer to substantially recover themselves. And if the affairs are hidden for years, after they have ended, that time gets counted too. In fact, those years of additional lying by omission tend to count even more!

Here is the much, much more relevant MB scriptural quote (italics mine - I wonder why you left this part out, Mel):

“ The more there is to resent, the more difficult it is to overcome resentment.

The resentment of B.A. and S.K. is a normal emotional reaction to the pain they suffered. The pain was directly associated with their husbands, so now, every time they make love, and lower their emotional defenses, they feel that pain all over again.

But emotional associations fade over time as long as there are no further associations with new painful events. In both cases, their husbands have not had an affair after the revelation, and so I would predict that if they have a normal recovery, where they learn to meet each other's needs, avoid Love Busters and learn to apply the Policy of Joint Agreement and the Policy of Radical Honesty to their decisions, the resentment would fade away.

If, on the other hand, either husband were to have another affair, the association would be much harder to extinguish. In fact, when a couple goes through a recovery after an affair, and then experience another affair, the resentment is often more intense and more persistent after the second recovery.

With multiple affairs and recoveries, resentment is almost impossible to overcome. But then, in those cases I usually feel that the emotional reaction of resentment is not irrational at all. Emotions are telling the person that it's not a good idea to continue the relationship, and I would agree.

But there is more to resent than just the number of affairs a husband had in the past. In many cases, an affair is discovered while it's going on, and the unfaithful spouse makes matters worse by choosing to be with the lover and abandoning the spouse and children. That thoughtless act is a huge source of additional resentment for the victimized spouse. He or she not only goes through the pain of discovering the affair, but must also go through the pain of being rejected. The unfaithful spouse often moves away to be with the lover, leaving the spouse all alone to face the terror of abandonment.

Then, if all of that weren't enough, the unfaithful spouse explains that he or she needs time to "sort out" feelings, whatever that means. It actually means that the unfaithful spouse will go to the highest bidder. Whoever makes the unfaithful spouse feel the best, the lover or the spouse, will win the prize of the unfaithful spouse. So he or she spends some time with the lover, and then spends some time with the spouse. Back and forth, trying to "get in touch" with feelings. Can you fathom the resentment that would follow such a horrifying and humiliating experience?

But there's more. After vacillating back and forth a few times, the lover gets sick of it all and tosses the spouse out for good. With nowhere else to go, the unfaithful spouse comes back home. It wasn't his or her choice. It was the lover's choice. How would you feel being chosen because you were the only one left. Resentment doesn't begin to describe the feeling.

Finally, there's all the lies. Your spouse looks right into your eyes and lies to you about everything. Faced with undeniable evidence, he or she grudgingly and defensively admits to one lie after another, rarely accompanied by apologies. How can there ever be trust again?

B.A. and S.K. went through only a small number of the possible painful experiences that lead to resentment. Over time, their resentment will fade, and a passionate desire to make love to their husbands will grow. Both husbands should be patient, and give their wives a chance to overcome the worst of their resentment, before expecting much from them sexually. But a woman in love is usually a great sex partner, and I doubt that either husband will be disappointed if they do their part in meeting their wives emotional needs. I predict that within a year from now, both of these wives will have almost completely recovered from their feelings of resentment.

But if they had gone through the other experiences I had mentioned -- abandonment, vacillation between spouse and lover, returning after being rejected by the lover, and the many lies -- I would not be as optimistic about them overcoming their resentment quickly. It would take much more patience on the part of the unfaithful husbands. But even with all of this past pain and suffering, they too, could have a marriage that would be relatively free of resentment.”

The head twitching is indeed most likely PTSD related. I know this well. It is actually a very useful trick. Like a dog shaking water off its back. The longer PTSD remains untreated the more it becomes integrated into one’s personality. These tricks become reflexive. Ingrained.

The realizations surrounding all those many years he was living a lie are affecting him more than the physical aspects of your adulteries. He does not deep-down trust anything in his life related to you now. Probably never will ever again. Although it appears he is able to cover for it and act over and around it most of the time.

Your H does not need more MB. Sheesh. It is/has been doing him no good whatsoever. Look around. Has it? He needs serious IC and perhaps psychiatric help. He probably won’t go, of course. Why should we BH of LTAs go to a shrink? We did not commit your multiple adulteries. We did not cause anyone to live a lie for years. We know, we really do, it was all you, and we know you enjoyed it. We, and our children, just get to pay for it with the rest of our lives. But, he should get help just the same. For himself - for once in his now miserable life he should do something to benefit just himself.

You made him into who he is now. He knows he needs help. He will not trust you to help fix him in any way though. So yes, he does need outside professional help.

And, unless he gets that outside help I predict he will eventually leave when he thinks his children, perhaps the only things he has left to protect, will be best able to deal with it.

Doesn’t anyone read carefully any more? That is not want AH wrote happened. As I read it, he accidentally broke something and freaked out. He momentarily lost that white-knuckle grip on his PTSD symptoms. Period.

The most useful and true comment written on this thread so far:


The five years since D-Day is totally irrelevant.

How is that more relevant in a marriage is 5 years out from D-Day?

And what do you suggest a BS DO when they obviously cannot get over the resentment after 5 years? I agree that sometimes the resentment is just too great.

What is your suggestion for Ahuman in that case?


you do not wear snarky well, friend.

Might I chime in?

I think all BSs would agree that something fundamental changes in you after suffering through this stuff. The price I paid is I had to let my spouse go upon plan B. The meaning of the words happiness, survival and independence change for good when you realize you will have to do those things without your spouse. Both good and bad. I realize I don't need her to be happy anymore. But I want to be with her so I try to let triggers come and go, let anger go. Most of the time they are but fleeting thoughts anyway. They carry lots of negativity but they are short and crowded out easily by life's stuff.

Part of it is that I realized as the BS that I contributed to the situation that led to the A. Has your spouse seen this light? I try to approach the A thoughts from the perspective that we are all selfish and sinful by nature, we all s-c-r-e-w up and hurt the ones we love, we all need forgiveness and grace. I want to treat my spouse as a gift from God despite her shortcomings because I know I have them too and I hope she can treat me like that despite my own idiot days.

Does he know about your EN's and about Love busting. Has he read HNHN? I see the withdrawals he is making each time he engages in LBing. Its why you are here no? Your account is at zero and you are at the end of your tolerating. Does he see it?

P.S. Oh come on they are censoring "s-c-r-e-w"? Gheez.

Might I add?

I realized last night myself that I was needing more words of affirmation from FWW. My triggers cause me to treat her badly but I know if I bring that to her with adult control of my emotions then she can respond appropriately by reassuring me with words and touch that I mean more to her than OM ever did.

AHuman, could you tell your spouse this? That if he can identify his feelings and bring them to you in a non confrontational manner you are more than happy to address them and make verbal amends and make him feel better. I know how he is feeling in that you did wrong and his lashing out doesnt't even compare to the pain you caused him. Not fair but real. We all feel our pain is the only one that counts. Thats why its so critical that someone breaks the negative spiral and goes first to move beyond the pain and help, nurture and support the other one. Address it head on in the moment. But help him understand that he cannot continue to LB when he has triggers.

I learned last night (again) that it is much more effective to deal with the (his) feelings immediately rather than let them fester.

5 years is a long time and the triggers should be diminishing but I know 1 year later I could be triggered 5 times a day still. Some days its none though.

Anger? Let me give you a glimpse of the anger of at least one BH:

My wife had one PA. I was blindsided when I walked in on them in the act.

"Anger" doesn't really describe what that made me feel, and makes me feel to this day. "Rage" is closer, but that's usually something that burns brightly, but burns out quickly. What I have feels like rage, boiling just beneath the surface, that has become part of who I am. It's always there. Sure, it might take short breaks during a really good movie or when I've got to focus on something important, but it's never gone for long. Since July 10, 2006, I would guess that the longest I've gone without thinking about the affair is about two hours.

You'd never know if you spoke to me in real life. It sure doesn't take much to make that anger visible, though. Maybe not the full depth of it, but at least a small sample of it.

I feel like I have unfinished business. Like my universe is off-axis. I love my wife, but not the OM. It absolutely burns me up that he's going about his daily life...going to work, playing with his kids, paying the bills. All the stuff that regular people do. He should be in prison or dead for what he did to me. I exacted some revenge, involuntarily, against my wife. She took a lot of abuse in the first year, and rightly so.

I never got any revenge against OM, other than calling his wife and boss. Not good enough. I want his blood. He deserves it. Every man knows that screwing with another man's wife can get you killed, and he chose to anyway.

I have his death coming to me.

To this day, I have to resist the urge to call him, just to let him know how ANGRY I still am. To let him know that I want him dead. That I'd love to be the one to bring it about. That I think about it every single day. Every hour.

I know this supposedly "gives him power", but I don't care. I want him to know that there is someone out there, not very far away, who would get off on watching him die.

How can I feel this way about OM, but not my wife? Compartmentalizaion isn't just for cheaters, it seems.

I realize I probably have some form of PTSD. Your husband probably does too. Maybe he just realizes that the odds of you becoming a decent wife after being a serial cheater are incredibly small, but he loves you enough that it's hard to do what he needs to for himself, and leave you.

Try a Plan A on me? I'd think, "Sure. It's easy to be nice once you've gone out and had your fun".

Plan B? It's time for divorce asap, because you're probably out screwing an OM.

What's the answer? I don't know for sure, but my best guess is "live with it or get out, because the anger isn't going anywhere".

Krazy,

I'm SURE you will get many responses trying to "straighten you out" ... but I FOR ONE, UNDERSTAND YOU!!!

Ahuman,

Being a woman, you are likely repulsed by Krazy's response, but if you truly want to understand your BH, who is obviously STILL fighting his demons 5 years out, you would be well served to read and re-read about the BH emotions that Krazy is describing.

As I wrote, five years is irrelevant in multiple adulteries and LTAs.

How much to you think AH’s BH believes he still doesn’t yet know about AH and her years of cheating? How many lies does he think he is still living every single day?

I have no advice for AH. She is a serial and LTA adulteress. I do, however, have great advice for her BH if he were to show up here. Some of that advice is in my post. In particular, serious professional non-MB help is indicated.

I think it matches my eyes.

So true. And this debt is collecting interest. It's compounding to a protracted and painful death. Too bad for BH, huh. Almost all OMs tend to get away with it in the end.

It's a textbook symptom, a common coping mechanism of PTSD actually.

I think he loves her, still. But he doesn’t like her, any more. He is a spouse who knows what true love is, actions as opposed to feelings. AH does not demonstrate any such understanding of him at all.

The anger could possibly dissipate, slowly, if he received professional help. Of course, it may evaporate the fastest with him leaving, in the end. But this is not an option for him yet. He is not there yet in his own head. His own epiphany will occur when AH again does something that looks to him like the possibility of yet another adultery, or the setting up of another potential adultery. This is highly likely of her, too, IMO.

The quote above sounds like the trend toward physical abuse. I kept thinking I need to forgive him and I need not to provoke him and blah...blah...blah. What happened? It got worse. Sometimes, it got better, but the overall trend was worse.

Alphelion, I was the one who expressed concern about his breaking things. My husband accidentally broke a windshield when we had been married 18 months, and accidentally broke my arm when we had been married 8 years. He went too far in throwing a fit. He told me he never intended to hurt me. I really don't think he did intend to hurt me. He was just upset.

I'd recommend "Why Does He Do That? Inside the Mind of Controlling and Angry Men".

As a woman, I felt rage toward my husband. Four young children, and he breaks my arm to keep me from calling this woman whom he said was not his lover. The week before Christmas. Twelve days after I had a hysterectomy. I wasn't even supposed to drive to not jar the surgery, and he punches me...

Now, all that is a distant memory. My life is now. What changed was I got sick of his yelling at me, and I was the one to pull away. He still gets upset. He was yelling at me when we had a little 9 year old girl over for a sleepover. She didn't hear him because she and my daughter were in the basement. I just kept away. If he gets upset with me, I leave. I end the conversation, or I leave the house, or I go to bed.

Now he approaches me. It's not perfect, but it's improving. Yesterday, we did a very normal thing in going to look at replacing bedroom window blinds.

It is so unpolitically correct to say this, but I think that the man needs to initiate. The woman can accept or withdraw. I am open to him when he is kind, and I leave when he is not. I don't try to change him.

Cherished

Sorry. Right, you are. I'll go back and fix it. Typing too fast from memory again.

AH's post is ambiguous though. Did he have a fit and break something, or did he break something and have a fit? And if the former what was it actually ignited the incident? AH showing up after three days unexplained absence, maybe?

Sometimes little details like this make a big difference. And WS/FWS tend to leave such tiny details out. Always.

But no one should ever be physically threatened, except OMs of course, in any case.