Aphelion, I think you missed the point of Dr Harley's quote that you think I left out. Dr. Harley was not suggesting that a BS stay in a marriage where he cannot overcome the resentment. When there is too much resentment to overcome, he agrees the marriage should be ENDED.


If the resentment was too much to overcome, that decision should have come 5 years ago. If one has not overcome resentment in 5 years, that is either a sign that the resentment can't be overcome OR that it is a spouse who is using the affair[s] to punish the WS, ie: "secondary gain." Either way, there is no reason that any person should live in a state of perpetual punishment. That is unreasonable and no doubt, would kill any love the WS felt anyway.

I know how much you love Marriage Builders "scripture" so I thought I would post this one again:



I betcha do!

Krazy,

""I feel like I have unfinished business. Like my universe is off-axis.""

VERY ELOQUENT POST, ACTUALLY!!

I am over 4 years out and your post sums me/it up rather well, the unfinished biz.

I just have no idea what that biz could be.

Like I am waiting for the other shoe to drop, or for the storm to begin, or not sure of which way to turn.

Our universe IS off-axis, our life has changed forever and we are living an altered existence than the one we planned.

Seems like the same old case of the adulterous spouse having NOT A FRICKEN CLUE of the damage they have done to their "beloved" partner.

Ahuman, You are so fortunate to have so many great people posting for you. My marriage was saved by using the concepts of MB and the great help that others provided.

I would like to offer a point of view that has been touched on a little but in a slightly different way.

Your BH may be suffering from something BH view a little differently than BW simply because of gender. That is the idea that YOU PURSUED THE OM by YOU actively arranging dates, babysitters, dressing your best, calling him at work, being PLAYFUL and being VERY ENTHUSIASTIC about SF and that he may not be receiving that NOW so why should he try....

If you cannot look at what you did with the OM and honestly say that you are putting more effort into it EVERY DAY and giving your husband MORE than you ever gave the OM you have zero chance of making it work. Because common sense tells your husband you wanted the OM more than you want to spend on him. Think about it, if you knew he had taken a woman to 5 star hotels over and over and only takes you to the 1 star hotel how would that fly with you?

You would feel just as undervalued as your BH feels and have just as poor of an opinion as he does.

My wife and I learned a very important tool early on which has saved our marriage. It is that a BH doesn't worry very much about the crumbs the OM got if his plate is filled to overflowing every day!!! (and I never forget to return the favor!)

Thank you everyone for replying. It helps to be reminded of the BS painful perspective.

I will try to respond to individual posts or issues separately, but first I should clarify the ambiguities in my posts above.

BH Behavior
I dont think he is using my A as leverage for other things he wants. I just think he is so engrossed in the fear and pain of it all that he cant control himself. Triggers bring it out most, but I think that his resentment makes putting up with anything I do that would otherwise just bug him harder to let slide of his back.

So he ends of over reacting, and I end up walking on egg shells.

He has been quite verbally abusive when it comes to describing me or most women when the A gets triggered.

Pre A Issue
The way he deals with negative feelings has always been an issue. Pre A issue. He can be quite cruel when he is angry or under stress. My As have just amplified this issue as you can all too well imagine.

This is part of what makes this so complicated. I am trying not to enable unhealthy behavior, but yet, I am trying to support him through the pain and demonstrate that I am not the same woman.

Smashing Tantrum Incident
He did smash his fist into the monopoly game box on purpose and actually I found a bowl that he broke later. But he didnt do it in front of me as a physical threat action...the was gorillas do before they attack or something. The kids and I were gone. It was a pure expression of rage. Unfortunately, the kids found the box.

The tantrum in front of us involved-- fist pounding on the tile wall when he was in the shower.

He later did the right thing and took off for a walk to cool down.

I cant tell you how close I came to telling the kids. I just feel like if they witness this type of thing and dont understand that it is from very very deep wounds and something very bad that I did, such as lie, they may interpret it as normal behavior when a person is mad at their partner in a M.

I decided not to, because I think it is something my BH and I should do together if we tell. So far, he has not wanted to tell a soul--with the exception of OMBS (which he felt strongly about even though OM had died because he felt that she had a right to know her own life because the truth is all we have in this life).

I always felt like not telling his family was a mistake, because I felt like he needed the support. But he wants it to stay between us.

Geez...I have started finger gabbing and have strayed from my objective to post specific issue responses.

This is precisely why I am here....to get a clue! I think by BH would agree with you. He still wonders is there something else he doesnt know? I do my best to demonstrate PROVE my trustworthiness...but his questions still linger. "Will I be a fool again?"

Ahuman,

I have been through eight surgeries due to my husband's abuse. Eight! The affair hurt much worse than the abuse. I am not a BS who recovered easily from the affair. Looking back, I chuckle at my mother's complete dismissal of the seriousness of the affair and the other woman -- Sophia, Margaret, who cares? She had exactly the right instincts: "Throw the bum out." That's what I should have done.

This guy seems to be so hurt by the affair that he is justifying his abuse of you. Five years? How long will he keep it up? I doubt very much it will dissipate over time. Instead, I suspect that the more you take, the more you will receive.

My mother's advice to me would be useful for you to consider: "Throw the bum out."

You do not deserve the abuse no matter what you have done. My husband accidentally broke things in fits of anger. He scared me so much that I pretty much didn't object to anything he did or did not do until he was flaunting his relationship with this other woman.

I lived with abuse for years and his behavior got more and more extreme the more I tolerated his behavior. I walked on eggshells trying to keep things calm. Things were calm for stretches of time.

I really don't think you are dealing with recovery from an affair so much as you are dealing with a man who chooses not to control his emotions. I recommend you get the book "Why Does He Do That?"

You are a human being. You deserve to be treated like a human being. Nothing you have done can take away your dignity.

Personally, I would consider leaving the conversation the second he says something that is nasty. If that doesn't work, separate. You don't want children witnessing what you describe.

Cherished

First, dont take this the wrong way. What are you doing, if anything, that might make him act like this? Sometimes a person will act out when they are not getting any EN met. I know I did a lot because my W would not work to meet any of my EN. I acted like I had never acted in any relationship ever before like I did with my W. I wouldnt hit her but I would be nasty sometimes and I wouldnt really know why. It would give me aweful headaches when it was over I would appologise and not know why I would scream and stuff. Was it anger issues? Actually, I have figured out what mine was and I feel tons better and am not near setting off like I would have been. It was fear, not anger. I would build up resentment and feelings of abandonment from her and then explode. Anger is the mask that fear wears a lot.

Aphelion,

I am sad to report that you have hit many points on the head. The article you (and Mel) posted I read several years ago, it was good to read it again.


Funny you should mention this, because this has been my same rationale and something that has given me energy to keep my own personal Plan A going for so long. (By Plan A, I mean trying to meet his top needs with gusto...despite little or no return).

Six years he carried the marriage--because I count the time I also did not tell him after I ended the A. I even wondered if that is why I am starting to "reach my limit"...I am reaching a psychological mark of sorts where I feel like we are reaching even ground. (And before any of you BS harp on the even ground comment as if I, a serial FWS for G sake, would ever think that I could even smell your true pain and be EVEN with him, that is not what I meant! I just mean even in the carry the M while the other person is being selfish.)

But that isnt fair, really. Its not truly about talling up time, the time was just a way for me to keep moving to a specified goal.

Call me polyanna, I just want us to be healthy, loving, open supportive--happily married for F sake! I mean cant people experience tragedy and then still be happy one day eventually?


Bingo! I have tried to get him to and he refuses. But it has been awhile, I will try again. (Incidentally, I even read a book which touched on a treatment involving Eye Movement Therapy used on victims suffering from PSTD in Kosovo. The author is French--we live in France--and I thought of getting him into the treatment...he wouldnt even READ the chapter about it).

Yours was a sad, tearjerker of a post. But its the truth in many ways, thanks.

Cherished,

Sorry to hear you dealt with Open emotional abuse and As! (Same thing I guess..)

Did you throw him out?

I agree and I dont engage him when he is like that and I usually do walk away. Its good to hear reinforcement for that method.

The problem is though, I walk away, he cools down. He feels bad, we talk about it, hug and are supportive for a stretch and bang....it happens again.

I am tired.

What you say about the kids is right and it worries me. I hate to separate because I feel like it is giving up, when we really have made progress. But I say that and I cant tell if it is just a pattern we are stuck in and it only appears like progress because we have had some good stretches. Do you know what I mean?

I will look into your book suggestion. Thanks!

Ahuman, have you considered calling Steve Harley and getting his assessment? I am very concerned about your H's angry outbursts. Dr. Harley wanted to trot my H off to anger management classes over angry words over lettuce! The kind of outbursts you describe are very abusive and worrisome. I am even more concerned that you seem to believe you deserve it.

After re-reading my post, I hope nobody thought I was trying to make it her fault in any way or excuse someone having an AO. AO are entirely the fault of the person having them and there is no excuse. But reasons are another animal. Maybe he can discover the reason he is having AO and can put a stop to it.

Ha! I would rather poke hot irons in my eyes!

Actually, the only thing I will do if this recovery does not work...leave.

Have you ever seen the Shaw Shank Redemption? (There is a part where Morgan Freeman faces the Prison Board of Pardons at his Parole hearing and they ask him about regret. He is beyond "regret" at that point, his is just discouraged and mad. He says he wishes he could reach back to that boy in him who stole the television and shake some sense into him.

This is how I feel. I have actually had fantasies where I could travel back in time and smack the sense into that niave, self centered 25 year old girl (me) and tell her to grow up and have the guts to leave the M if she was so unhappy or have the guts to give it her all if she wanted to keep her H!)

No, I think once you have really been through the pain of this and realized the depth of the pain you cause--its not even something that is tempting. Rather, any man who would be attracted to a married woman seems really repulsive and would be unattractive.

Thanks Melody. I agree, they are serious and it has taken me writing them and explaining them to really see. Its hard when you are inside of the bubble to assess.

I have looked into an assessment with Harley. I have also looked into Anger Management.

I dont deserve it. Thank you for reminding me.

And actually, its not even about deserving or not deserving. I came out about my As 5 years ago because I wanted to build a healthy M and I knew that "all open" was the only shot I had. My ultimate goal is "healthy M". I have had this sort of 6 year timeline in my head since then because I wanted to know that I gave it my all and I wanted to give BH healing time.

But I regret now that I did not make anger management, treatment for him a requisite in our recovery. I guess maybe I was just so focused on demonstrating to him that I could be the partner that he wanted, that I had changed. It have asked him to change, have asked for Anger Management in the past.

But I cant DO it for him. He has to want to decide to change in order to save our M.

This is sort of why I was thinking Plan A and Plan B. Plan A--as a final reminder that I have changed and can be the woman he wants. Plan B--to make him understand that I am serious about my requests for this M and that I WONT seek an A as a solution to my unhappiness, but rather, I will leave. I realize that it is not a complete parallel because it is a different scenario, but that was what I was thinking. I just feel like I need a PLAN something to grab onto so I dont give up hope or go nuts.

He has commented that he doesnt trust me, he feels that I will just stay and have an A. I am just dumbfounded when he says this--I have done so much to change! Invested so much in this recovery!!

Was he an angry guy before the A's?

Anger management classes are crap for people with issues that are deeper than anger. You said he doesnt trust you will not have another A. I think he is probably scared and that causes the anger.

Like I said before, this is HIS fault. The root cause of the anger should be addressed.

Triggers. He may feel me drawing my lines about his treatment. I dont completely understand, when I asked him today he just said he doesnt trust me.

But he acts like this because he does not have the tools to deal with his feelings....and partly out of a bad habbit because he hasnt really had to face the consequences of his outbursts. I have contributed no doubt by fixing it for him.

I read once that an angry person who has outbursts a lot will develop more and more because of the activity in that part of the brain. The brain will get used so much in the area that it develops a lot more and can lead to more and more.

I think it is a trust issue more than anything else. He is probably having the outbursts to hope to "fix you" in a demented way. Hoping to scare you into changing and being trustworthy. This does not work but in the subconscous that may be what is happening.

I am in a different time zone than most of you and it is sooo past my bed time!

I will keep you posted on our progress, but I need to go to sleep now.

Before I go, I want to clarify that my BH has made progress and does acknowledge that he has issues dealing with anger outside the A. I feel like I am making him out to be a monster of some sort. He is not. He is a man in pain without the right tools to deal with it. So sad it breaks my heart.

He is a wonderful man in many many ways. It is so hard to give the full picture and all the complicated details in a post.

But all of that said, where he is now and what he is contributing to our M is not enough. Its time for him to bring it to the next level. I lovingly explained this to him. I have told him that he needs to grow and develop those skills to deal with his anger towards me.

Thank you all for taking the time to speak to me!

G night

Ahuman, First of all your husband's angry responses are not appropriate under any circumstance and if you feel like you are in danger please, please get help to deal with him. HOWEVER, have you considered that it is not only the affair he is angry about???

He is angry because you STILL HAVE NOT SHOWN HIM WHAT THE OM GOT!!!

You are choosing all of the avenues and excuses that allow you to evade giving him what the OM got BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO...

It couldn't be that he is waiting for YOU to engage HIM by chasing him like you did the OM!!! Or could it?
Your passive aggressive behaviour by avoiding what he is desperate to see and hear from you is causing him unbelievable pain!!!

Everyday he looks at what the OM got and waits in pain to receive it WITH ENTHUSIASM from you, in vain...

He wants to be with you or he would be gone...he doesn't know how to regain his dignity and self respect...because he can't... only you can give them back to him...the same person who stole them....

I know because I have been there...

I love my wife with all of my heart but if she could not show me I was worth MORE than the OM I would have left her rather than die a little every day.

If you honestly try giving him the EFFORT EVERY DAY you gave the OM and it doesn't change your relationship including eliminating the anger you can walk away knowing you did everything possible.

God bless.

Jim

I hope things get better for you.

I hope I can help being a recoverg angryish person.

I will tell you about what happened to me and then you can use it if you want or disregard it. I was working hard on anger and everything and was learning all of the techniques to deal with it hoping to stop my AO. Nothing was working. When the anger would come I would catch myself saying things Ishouldnt say after I said them instead of before. I felt so defeated like I would never overcome it. Then I started looking to why I would get mad and started reading and studying some other things. First, my dad was an abusive guy and would yell a lot. He would hit and everything. To this day I am actually not strong enough with my kids in the area of discipline because I did not have the right model growing up. Without the right model, it is a hard thing to learn where that line is. So I aired on the side of caution.

I never had any type of anger issues before in any other relationship I had ever been in or growing up. I had always been the easy going guy and laid back. When my W and I married and all, she knew just how to make me mad. I have since discovered she does this with almost everybody. She pushes them quietly so that she can feel like a victim when they react. I have now the conscous decision to not react and it is starting to make her back off a LOT on everything. If she cannot get attention by being a victim then she gives up on it.

What was making me easily angered? Fear. I was always afraid that she was too good for me deep down. She was a very beautiful girl and I have low self esteem about myself. She is a girl that is afraid of real intimacy and has self esteem issues of her own. She would always keep me at arms length so we could never be truly intimate. I craved intimacy and this just fueled my fears. I would have AO trying to make her snap into line and become more intimate(I know, that is the dumbest thing ever but deep down that is how I felt even though I didnt know it at the time)and blame everything on her. I would be critical of her hoping she would change. In the end I discovered what has helped me overcome my fears and has given me more self confidence, I can change nobody but myself. While it may not sound like much, it is. When I figured out that I had to be the best me and could only then hope that they would change because of my change, and that I was being fueled by fear, it started working out. I am no longer stressed by it all that much, even though there is a little stress there it is now manageable.

If my WW decides to come back, I will just be the best me I can be and she will slowly come around and be a better her hopefully. If she cannot do that then I'm sorry for her.

You summed up what I tried to say even better.