The bathroom thing really bothers me.

Why did you choose to "confront" her there?

Were you having an argument and she went in there to get away from you?

Why did you prevent her from closing the door? Did you enter the BR?

One night after my sister's XH, who at the time was her WH, got really angry, he forced his way into her bedroom. She called the police, they asked him to leave for a while... he agreed to sleep somewhere else for the night.

and the next day she was able to get a RO.

I bet she and the kids won't be there when you get back tonight.

She was in there doing her make up to leave and the door was partially open and i knocked. In the recording I say that I will let her close the door when I am done talking. I never entered the bathroom
The long recording was in the kitchen after she came back from shopping.

Before I came home at 8pm I called her at home to see if anyone wanted any snacks

And? ...

I guess I did leave that a little open

She said they didn't need any snacks....I offered frosties from Wendys....they had just finished having ice cream. I got home and she was on the couch. I said hi to her and she said hi back. She looked really crappy. I went upstairs and checked on the kids and made a CD for D9. I went back down and grabbed a drink and she was in her room.
This morning I called and checked on the kids...todaywas their first day back...chatted with W briefly about tonites schedule becuase all 4 of us have IC.

Okay Carp,

Here's the thing. In some small way, I know that conversation made you feel good. To be able to get out what you wanted to say, to defend yourself. I'll give you that! And guess what? Almost every one of the BSs on here had moments like that. So, I wont take a virutal 2x4 to you because we all have done similar things.

But now that you have gotten that out of your system, let's talk strategy here. First off, as Mel said, never argue with an insane person! Go back and read what you wrote. She drove the conversation, not you. The psychotic one labeled you as psychotic. The one hurting the children labeled you as hurting the children.

You see, once I learned not to get in those conversations, the pressure was put on my wife. So, I am going to take you conversation and show you what I think you should have said to illustrate how to do this in Plan A and still defend yourself. I will write the responses you should have had in RED.

Me...I will be back in a few hours
Her....he said that you agreed to come back tomorrow.
Me....I said I never agreed to that we can call them back if you want I don't have any problem with that. This is all your should have said. Leave out the rest of the sentence. nobody has any rite to make anybody leave.
Her...everything is crazy around here and it is gonna end in the next few days
Me...I couldn't agree more Instead: "Okay"
Her....I can do wahtever I want to in my own house....whatever I want
Me....as long as you act respectful and mature I cannot disagree
Her....I don't have to give you any respect. I respect my children and that's why she puts up with every single torturous thing you are doing to me
Me...I am not torturing anybody Instead: You will act respectful toward me and our children in our house
Her.....yes you are
Me....I am only doing what is rite
Her....yes you are you are mentally torturing me
Me....you can leave I haven't said that you can't leave This is okay.
Her....that's fine the girls and I will leave while you are gone
Me...I am not agreeing to that This is fine
Her....it doesn't matter you don't have to agree
Me.....I am just telling you I do not agree This is fine
Her....whatever you say you do not have to agree
Her.....once things are settled and done you will get the same visitation we agreed on
Me....rite every other weekend for you and all that stuff that's laid out in the papers. Until then everybody lives here. Instead: "Your visitation with the children will be decided in court. Until then, I do not agree for the children to move out of their home."
Her...I mean it. I feel unsafe being here and I am worried about my children safety I'm leaving.
Me....you can leave This is okay
Her.....I'm leaving and I'm taking them with me
Me...then I will see you tomorrow in court Instead: " I do not agree to them leaving their home
Her...for what. I'm their mother
Me....status quo
Me....I didn't threaten anybody Note: never say this. Let her rant on about abuse or being scared. They ALL say this!
Her.....they and 2 therapists that have dealt with me personally agree that it's best for them to not be in this household with you Note: even if therapists are saying whatever (and usually the WS is lying about this), it usually is because they havent talked to you...so they have only gotten the lies. Take this with a grai nof salt!
Me.... I agree it's not best for all four of us to be here rite now but you don't want to leave
Her....they and I are leaving. I am taking my children and leaving
Me....then I will see you in court tomorrow. Instead: "I do not agree to them leaving their home"
Her....try that
Me....I don't have to try Note: this is childish! Dont take yourself down to her level. Correct response would be silence!
Her.....you can't do chit your so full of it you can't do anything. The reason your doing half of the things your doing is because you are set in your place and your not going to get them and your not going to get the things that you want
Me...if we are gonna talk like this we need to go outside Good response
Her...asks D to leave other room and go upstairs
Her....why are you pulling all these desperate desperate things because you are unstable and you are having a hard time dealing with how things are actually going to be
Me...I am not having a hard time dealing with it Note: I would just say dont even respond to a statement like this. But, if you did...on a one time basis...I would say "Look, I am here with my family acting in the way I am supposed to as a husband and father. You continue to be involved in an illicit affair, which is immoral and wrong. I will continue to do what is right for our children, for you and for our family, no matter what you do." This should be a repeated mantra. She should know it word by word after the thousandth time you say it.
Her.... That's why you do the things that you do
Me.... I made a plan and I am following my plan Instead: silence
Her... Your last ditch desperate effort
Me....there's nothing desperate Instead: silence
Her...you don't believe that there is nothing desperate but everybody else everybody
Me.....everyone who?? People that enable people to have affairs? I don't take what those people say with a grain of salt. This is okay, although I probably would have opted out with silence.
Her....my family....certain members of your family and the therapists and her lawyer
Me....when 1 of them comes up to me and says I don't think you should have done that I think you are desperate then ok. But so far I have had no one but chicken [censored] say let your wife go and I tell them she won't go. Instead: silence
Her....because I'm told legally me and the children have to stay until it's time to go
Me....rite that's what I have been told I cannot force you to leave Instead: silence (never discuss any part of legal process. You do marriage, your attorney does divorce)
Her...no you can't
Me...whatever I'm doing for me and the kids is fine
Her....but the mental torture that your doing to me I have basis now
Me....I am not mentally torturing you Instead: silence
Her...I has basis to leave
Me....then you can leave Instead: silence
Her....and take them with me I am worried about their mental health
Me...I am too I worried about them being exposed to him and the way you are doing things and the moral decisions you are making And then say "I do not agree to them leaving their home
Her....I am not doing anything bad and because you are not with me is the one problem
Me...no just the things that they will be exposed to are bothering me Instead: adultery is bad, breaking up a family is bad, exposing the kids to this is bad...and immoral.
Her....well too bad the bottom line in the way that the courts work is that they go with their mother
Me....then I will see you in court. I will stay out till after 8pm I won't deny your time here that's fine Instead: silence
Her....that's fine I am going to visit sick family this evening
Me...let me have their name and phone number
Her...my grandma
Me...I will call and ask if you are there
Her...no problem
Me....the kids have school tomorrow so they have to be back
Her...rite they will be back in the morning and they will go to school
Me...that's rite and I will be here when you get here Dont say this...just do it
Her...your gonna take off work tomorrow
Me....I have to make sure they go to schoolbexause I don't know if you will come back
Her....rite
Me...see it works both ways Again, we are getting childish again...which is just playing into her childish games. Dont go there!
Her...your playing games
Me...there is no game Instead: silence
Her....you are playing the game you are mentally unstable
Me....I am not unstable Instead: silence
Her...you have got a disassociative personality rite now
Me...A what Instead: silence
Her...you are only going to a certain degree of reality you are not processing anything properly
Me...I know all the reality Instead: silence...or the mantra again about the reality of the fact that adultery and breaking up a family is immoral and wrong.
Her...no your not
Me....according to who? You? A person who's been living a fantasy for over a year? This is okay...but argumentative. When you talk about the affair, state the facts. Dont put it in the form of a question!
Her....she names our MC her IC the kids C
Me...ok
Her....it's it's it's upsetting
Me....your rite it's terribly upsetting to me to have to live with what your doing to us everyday This is okay...but this is a back and forth into who hurts the worse. And in fogland, the WS always hurts the worse...so the better response would be: "It is upsetting, I will give you that. It cannot be easy for you to do the things yo uare doing and do so with a good conscience. I can understand how that would cause one to be upset."
Her....I am doing nothing to my children my children are aware of everything that I am doing and the reasons why I am doing them
Me....it's terrible that I am gonna have to deal with the fallout from what your doing for the rest of their lives Too many "I's". Your family already has one adult only worried about "I"...there cant be two! Always couch discussions into "us", "the family", "our marriage", etc. Never "I".
Her....your dealing with the fallout of your psychosis
Me....I don't have any psychosis Instead: silence
Her....mocking my yelling up to the kids to see if they wanted to go shopping with her earlier.
Me ...I was just yelling to them to see if they wanted to go with you This is okay
Her....ok then you say we can all go together lime a family
Me...that's fine
Her...we aren't a family anymore I am not any part of your life
Me....you are still my wife but you can leave the parts that you don't want anymore Instead: we are a family...what yo uare doing cant change that
Her.....the parts that I want are going with me.
Me....you still have all the legal rights that you have and that's not gonna change Instead: I do not agree to the children leaving their home
Her...that's rite and their mine and their going to be with me and you play this game with me all the time and I'm already feeding the dog too much I done talking to you
Me...that's fine I don't have anything else to talk about Instead: silence
Her...something about my dilusions(sp?)
Me....there no dilusions you are a cheater and a liar (bad?) Yes, bad
Her... I hate you and that's why I don't wanna be with you
Me...that's fine. Like I told your uncle she won't leave. Instead: "I understand that you feel that way"
Her....because your nuts. What's the next thing you are gonna do show up at my work with a gun tomorrow?
Me...no Instead: silence
Her....there are a lotta people worried about your instability
Me...then they can come here and talk to me if they got the balls or call me Instead: silence
Her...you mean writing letters is balls? Going on the Internet is ballsy? You have never picked up the telephone 1 time to confront the person who you think is causing this problem
Me....I don't need to pick up the phone when I see him in court as well Instead: silence (again, NEVER discuss court, legal proceedings, etc with her. Remember, YOU do marriage, your attorney does divorce)
Her...you never actually stood and did enough enough to actually accuse me of all this back door bullchit
Me....there is no backdoor bullchit Instead: silence
Her...really? Where do you get all your info? Looking thru my stuff?
Me...what info?
Her...I don't know all the info you have all the time? Someone saw us shopping? Where?
Me...it's my job as a husband to know This is the best thing yo usaid in this conversation, besides that you dont agree to the children leaving!
Her....Wow mmmhmmm sure they did
We chat about her locking her keys in her car yesterday and how she got in it etc
Her....you have absolutely nothing but a psychotic last minute scramble
Me...I don't need anything Instead: silence
Her...to try to save. You honestly think I want you? That the things that your doing are going to 1 day click in my head and I am gonna say all these psychotic damaging things that he did to me wow he must really love me
Me...almost like the psychotic damaging things you did to our family for years why would I take you back Not good at all! Again, the best response would have been silence. But the only response that would have worked here is" I understand that you feel that way. I also understand that our family is worth defending. I love my family. I love our girls. I love you. Whether you can accept that sometime in the future is upto you."
Her....it's years now
Me....July 2007 we are going over 1 year why would I take you back My man, you are talking like her here! Even if you want her to move to China and never darken your doorstep, you DO NOT talk like her. You just divorce her! If yo uwant no chance of ever having your family whole again, then continue talking like this! Also, even if your family doesnt make it...you want everyone involved (including her) to wake up one day and know who flew right and who didnt. Stay above the fray!
Her....I've done (mumble) your the one doing this because you want me back that's what you told my friends yesterday that's what you told me new years eve
Me....there's always a chance Better way of phrasing it is: "I want our family whole and happy. I thin kthat our children deserve that. I think you deserve that. I have learned a lot over this trying time, and I know that many marriages are saved even i nthe midst of what we are going through. So, I am willing to do whatever it takes to make our family whole. Our children want that too. So, it will be upto you whether that happens or not. The rest of the family really has no choice in the matter.
Her....there is never a chance
Me....for you there won't be and that's the way you are gonna think and that's fine and like I said I am gonna do everything I can for my family and myself and there is nothing else I can do. If you don't want a part of that that's fine This is okay. I wouldnt have said the first sentence though.
Her.....I never ever if a looking at you this much that that I have to deal with you makes me physically Ill
Me....yes I know the feeling exactly Not good! Pointing to yourself again. Remember, her feelings are her feelings. She is feeling them!! Thus, if you make light of them or dont acknowledge them, then it gives her further ammo to make you out to be this uncaring bad guy in her head (as opposed to the loving and understanding OM...blech!). Better response: "I understand you feel that way"
Her....it makes me physically sick
Me....I know I know exactly how it feels Again "I understand you feel that way"
Her....because you are so sick and unstable in your head
Me....I know how that feels I look at you and I have the same feelings. The feelings are mutual you can't imagine that they are not. I will be back later and you will be? If your going somewhere you gotta leave me a note or something Wow, that was a bad exchange@!!! Instead: silence
Her....why? This is my house I am your wife I don't have to tell you where I am going
Me.....well ya know secrets aren't good for a marriage Instead: "secrets are not allowed in a marriage"
Her....loony laugh
Me....well there aren't very many secrets anymore didnt need to be said
Her...whatever you say

Okay...can you see where I was going with this? Almost half of the conversation should have been met with silence by you! Now why?

You need to really become an expert in the fog. What you say goes thru the fog and by the time it reaches her brain, it doesnt sound like anything close to reality. And it isnt reality in fogland! Fogland has a different reality...which is why Mel said you cant argue with an insane person.

What gets thru the fog is mantras. Saying the basic same stuff, over and over. Never about you. Always about family, about her, about the kids.

Always that you will do what is right for the family and for her!

My wife said recently as we were talking that the one thing that finally got through to her was that I just continued to claim the promises of God. I kept claiming that I would do what was right. I would claim that I am defending my family and even her.

She said throughout the affair (while in fogland), she thought (and would tell others) that I was crazy! She even said many of the things your wife said above! That she was afraid, etc. "Why cant you get with reality? Why cant yo uaccept what is going to happen?"

The problem is that my wife at the time had no clue what was going to happen, right? You see, I banked on God. I banked on the statistics...the odds:

• over 98% of all affairs fail
• Out of the 2% that make it to marriage, over 60% of those marriages fail
• Which means that less than one percent of all affairs end up in a longterm relationship or marriage
• Over 60% of marriages that have adultery involved recover

So, who is the insane one? She is betting her entire life (and all of your lives) on a less than 1% chance. You are betting all of your lives on a 60% chance. Who again is the psychotic one?

So, the point is that you have to be the rock. Many times, you will not be able to defend yourself agains the verbal onslaught...because you know it will be pointless.

But let me give you another little clue: when you dont answer her tit for tat, when you confidently just do what you know is right...she WILL notice! That stuff gets thru the fog. She wont believe it at first. She will have to see some longterm steadiness by you. But it does get thru.

I know it is hard, but you are going to have to understand where she is at. It cannot be easy for her. Remember, we all need our needs met. Right now, she is having some met by you (even if she wont admit it) and some by the OM. To leave either of you will be painful! And a WS in the fog will do EVERYTHING they can to avoid pain.

I know your inclination is to say "well she put herself there." Sure, she did. But remember, you are culpable also! There were things you did or didnt do that led to the environment where your wife felt like she needed to run.

So, just understand that inside that fog is a scared woman. She is defiant and is fighting and running because the pain is too large...and she wants it to stop.

When you get into arguments with her, you only increase that pain...and make the "loving and understanding" OM look like the better alternative to run to.

So, steady as she goes, dude! Yo uare going to have to be the adult for both of you in this marriage for awhile...at least until she is gone and you are divorced. But you need to learn from all of this, no matter if she comes back or not.

Because the woman that spends the rest of her life with you will deserve a better Carp!

Thanks for the added details, Carp.

You really had me worried last night.

Listen to MM.

Thx for tearing that apart MM. I hope other people that read this stuff can learn from these conv/arguements as well.

As far as meeting ENs....I leave a cup out for coffee, try to ask her input for dinner, I was doing all the laundry for awhile...even hers...I stopped for a bit but think I will start again.
She is pretty much plan Bing me rite now!! She stays holed up in her room most of the time.

As far as the C saying I am unstable..I know this is NOT true for the one that we saw together and I still see.

She is going to see her IC tonite and she has not mentioned if he called her about the letter. She knows it said family and friends on it and even asked her friends that were at our house got one...they did not.

No problem for the update. When I got back to the house I was to exhausted to even post. I just hung with my kids and went to bed.

Carp,

Don't worry about it. If it is a concern at all, just delete it from the info you've saved.

POOF! No witnesses? It never happened. Never admit to it.

Got it

The things you hear discussed in your home when you are not there....
My W told my kids...I am not doing anything wrong...I can talk to and do whatever I want....I am only marrled to your dad on paper. I shared this with my C last night...I did not tell her how I know just that I know. W was quizzing the kids about locking herself out of the car they told her they did not mention it to me.
My kids C hurt herself over the weekend so I got the call to reschedule their appt. I sent W an email letting her know about this. Me and my C discussedgettingsome info to my kids C (kids C works for my C) about how to bring up the stuff W is telling my kids. W had IC last night as well and my C and I discussed possible "fallout" when I got home in regards to the letter I sent him. We also discussed my emotional state lately...I really don't have a way to describe it....I sleep good...interact with my kids well...I do have somewhat of a social life...I told her I am staying true to my marriage vows. She asked if I am consumed by what is happening in my life/marriage...I said in the beginning I was but recently I am ok. We talked about the comments my W likes to throw around about me being psycho and the disassociative personality thing.....she actually kinds chuckled and asked if me or W even knew what that actually meant!! I called home when I was done to see if everyone wanted ice cream...W said no but of course kids said yes. When I got home W was quiet and went into her room and me and the kids sat on the couch and watched tv a bit.
Earlier in the day I sent W a mail about dinner and evening plans. I made dinner for me and the girls. I saved W a plate of food and helped the kids with homework until I had to leave. When I got home W must have eaten her for because the plate as gone.
I made my daily journal entry and emailed it to myself for safe keeping.

This morning I left a cup by the coffee maker for her when I left.

Last night our furnace was acting funny and W asked if I called about it. I said yes and the soonest they could come was tonite. She mentioned that the last time the guy just blew all the dust out and it was good. I did this last night and it worked!! I thanked her for the idea and told her I would call her this AM to see if it was ok.

I also got the detailed phone bill yesterday.

So what did you find?

OM is probably 99.9% of her texts!!
All day at work....couple hr break if she is around me...back at it again in her cave.
Her total bill was 74 pages! Kids phones and her mom and grandma are on there to.

You pay for this?

No

Good!

Just recieved this email reply

Dear mr carp

Thank you for bringing these concerns to our attention

Because you are not an employee of abc we are not in a position to share with you any actions that we take in response to your email.

We hope you understand we must abide by the laws

What next??

Bumping for input