WOW...its like you viewed into the deepest part of my mind and heart and threw it all out there......AMAZING POST JIM....

AH,

Jim COULD be one to something. I can say as a BW that this is EXACTLY how I feel, and I'm not even a year into recovery yet......I can't begin to imagine how your H may feel being 5yrs out......I suggest you think about this some....and even ASK your H about it. Write in a letter if you must (sometimes this is a good form of communication on sticky subjects to at least get the ball rolling.....).....

not2fun

I know that it's been five years since D day.

Would you please provide a time line?

How many D day's were there?

Did you answer all of your BH's questions?

Were your answers sugar coated?

How long was your affair, how intense?

How did your BH find out, how long did he suspect before D day?

How transparent were you, how long did it take you to be fully transparent?

Did the OMW ever get exposed, did the OM get away scott free?

Great post.

Yeah...I'd like to see a FWW text their BH 1,000 times in a month, with idiotic nonsense like, "can't wait 2 see u. u complete me!"

Or maybe offer an unsolicited, random BJ in a parking lot because they are so thrilled to be there with the BH.

Yeah, right. :RollieEyes:

My first thought for AH and her BS is to keep things simple. Find out most important ENs and meet them with gusto. Also my wife observed that sometimes we need all the ENs fulfilled and the one that is most important is the one that is not being met.

It seems logical that if he had AO before the affairs, those LB'ers contibuted to her empty love bank, resulting in her seeking EN fulfillment outside the M. Now that they are back together, maybe she is still not meeting his main needs thus he continues AOs out of frustration. And for probably 99% of men the El Numero Uno is SF. Remember Harley saying that men resent the sex, women resent the emotional part. Or vice versa that men can get over an only EA easier vs a woman can get over an only PA easier.

And Jim and Krazy have finally hit the male (nail) on the head. If AH is not meeting his need for SF he obviously still feels very slighted which is not nearly strong enough of a word as Jim and Krazy relate so perfectly above for all male BSs.

My wife and I are still unveiling details of her A. Two days ago I asked her how many times they had sex. She said more than 50! Within 4-5 months! Know why? They could meet each other anytime of day all work week. I happen to have a f-ing job that I have to have to support her and our 3 kids so I can't just prance off at 1pm to get it as they were doing. Can you sense MY anger and resentment?!? My wife usually feels in the mood in the afternoon, not at 10pm after caring for the family and chores and work and exhausted. Guess what, after 10pm is the only time that we can be intimate, if even then since my teenagers still knock on our bedroom door after 10pm. So again I get the dregs. Thanks WW.

So a full year after her A ended we have probably not had sex 50 times. How am I supposed to not feel like punishing her?!? How am I ever supposed to feel like the most important thing in her life?

We all know how men think with their little heads, but we also know its because of a physical need not just an emotional desire. That physical release will relieve some of his pent up emotional anger. It's completely primal need that must be fulfilled. Obviously this is a very wrong/bad thing (I am not condoning) but look at men who rape or sexually molest children. They will stop at nothing to get sexual need released. Yes I know they say rape is about the power but still, its sexual. Men genuinly need to release that sexual energy. Of course it should only be done in appropriate relationships. Thats why God said only between man and woman in marriage. Maybe 99% of the other circumstances the long term results are nothing but shame and hurt.

I too want what the OM got from my wife, the enthusiasm, the lust, the desire, the burning. AH, bring that to your recovery and see what happens. I'll ask for it at home and let you know too.

It won't happen. WWs are incapable. Even years down the road when all seems good again...

the BH still isn't getting the same level of lust and enthusiasm the OM did, whether he thinks so or not. Nothing, not even love, can compete with "strange, new, and forbidden". Not when it comes to sex.

No amount of love and affection can replace that.

I really appreciate this board. You wise, wise people!

Many of you have touched on my BH not having his ENs, not getting what OM got (yuck! I hate to think about that!!!!).
Anyway, you all have a point. This is MY part of the puzzle to address.

Other posters have touched on the reality that his behavior is not healthy or acceptable. Correct and I will not accept it any longer. Regardless of the rootcause (my A, his upbringing, lack of tools whatever), the result is that it is damaging to me and our M. That is HIS part of the puzzle. I cannot fix him, and I cannot accept emotional abuse.


MY PLAN
So here is my plan--focus on what I can control. My part of the puzzle--"Plan A with SERIOUS gusto" for a defined period of time. (I cannot just go on and give without a time limit in my head or I will feel totally discouraged.)

When he acts unacceptably, I wont accept it. I will remove myself from the situation when he gets abusive. When things cool down, remind him FIRMLY but LOVINGLY that I want to meet his needs, but cannot accept unhealthy behavior. If he expresses his pain or insecurity in an unabusive way, I can listen and love him and reassure him. I will ALSO make it a requisite that he, or we, are in a PSTD treatment or other anger management program--I dont know what is available here. We are not in the states and that kind of stuff is typical American or Canadian stuff that the rest of the world does not really offer...

Repeat the above two processes....until my time limit expires. If no changing (and by changing, I mean not trying, but participating in ACTIVE PROFESSIONAL TREATMENT for the issues), then Plan L--leave.

Whadda yall think?

Melody said:

BH and I spoke this morning about this very same thing. He acknowledged I do not "deserve it" and when I explained it is abusive behavior and something we cant just talk about, but that needs to be treated and trained out of him. He said "I hear you."

So this is progress, but it wont be CHANGE or ACCEPTABLE progress until he is actively counseling or reading about it and treating it.

It is a really hard thing. I dont want to be codependent, to accept it, to be a doormat, to enable him....yet I love this man and I dont want to give up on him either!

I understand the sentiment expressed here, but I have reservations about the concept. I agree that making the effort is important. But I wouldn't want that effort directed at giving me what OM got. OM got my FWW at her worst.

Ug. I hate this part. I drew one for BH on D-day. I will try to remember dates here.

1998 -- Three Month A.

2000 -- incident with OM (not same as above). A really started in 2001 and lasted over a year from that point. I ended A March 2002. OM went nuts about it, following me, etc. I had contact (we worked together) but did not continue the A from my view, no lunch, not initiating contact, working off site etc. It was over for me. In May, 2002 OM very unexpectedly died. I entered counseling and was stupid enough to listen to dumb advice that the past was the past. Heal the marriage, move on. (By the way, I have since written a letter to that counselor to let her know what a mistake that is and to never advise that to people!)

2004 April D-day. Full disclosure over a period of three days.


A series of three days of D-day where the whole story was revealed in pieces, but I think there were two D days in that three day hell.

It sounds like magical thinking to me now, but at first I didnt really think of A1 as an A!!! But my point is that I told him about A1 two days after A2 so, it is really a second D-day as I think about it. Another new reality to him.

I think he felt like it was a step from "my wife is a WS" to "my wife is a serial WS." And the difference, I think really matters, because it adds a whole new dimension to the issue. It no longer appears like "My wife was unhappy, messed up etc." It appears like a personality trait. Like "what sort of sick monster have I married?!" Do you follow?

BUT IT IS NOT A PERSONALITY TRAIT!!! People can change their choices and methods for dealing with problems.


Yes, albeit reluctantly. I was timid and afraid about it answering his questions honestly but not initiating the discussion..... until the third day. On the third day, I wrote out a time line and filled out the questionnaire about radical honesty from this site. That article on radical honesty really helped me to open up. I filled out the questionnaire in great detail and wrote a long letter explaining details I could remember. Since then, answering questions without reluctance has been better, but it is never a pleasure.


Somewhat in the beginning. But once the ball got rolling, I made a conscious effort not to sugar or exaggerate. It is hard though when you have rationalized things to dig into what reality REALLY is. Sounds nuts, but once you have lied and lied about lying about lying. It takes some time to REALLY remember and be real without trying to protect youelf.

Also, two years had passed I had trouble remembering all of the awful details of when and where. But I did remember and told about all the events I can recall.


Long. Intense. (YUCK!)


He suspected during the A, but then the A ended and time passed. But he always felt something was wrong.

He found out, because I told him. He knew something was wrong between us, I FINALLY realized it had to come out.

One night, in the dark lying on our bed after a fight, he asked me. I answered.

Brings tears to remember that evening. What a long painful road we have traveled since then. But what a relief to have taken this road and not held back the truth.



Totally transparent after our Dday about all of my activities.

By then, the A had been over for two years--I had admited to the most low and humiliating behavior of my life--so I had nothing LEFT to hide!!

He would give a different viewpoint to some extent because on occasion I have not had my cell phone with me or did not hear it ring in my purse. But in fairness, I make an assertive effort, to respond when he calls (that was one A issue, I would NEVER answer my cell phone). I havent always--at every minute of the day heard my phone (in my purse, or am running with headphones on), or didnt have it (forgot it when I went to get the kids from school) or one time when I was traveling the phone did not capt the signal. But I try to be consciencious about this still and call him back if I miss the call, etc.

He always knows where I am.

Also, I have tried to change my behavoir around other men. I am talkative, so I have been conscious to keep distance.

I have told him all about any of the people at my new job, took him to my workplace cafeteria for lunch, etc. Didnt meet my boss and his family once when they invited me because my BH could not be there.

Really, I have nothing to hide. I even told him I am posting here. He knows I have a facebook page (my picture is a picture of the two of us together).

So I have made every effort that I can think of and tried to meet his requests on transparency.

I WANT his trust back, so I dont have any issue with this.


Yes.



Anything I missed?

So true! I lied to OM. I was not open with him. Really, something hard for BS to understand--the A is not about OM!! Its ABOUT the WS. They are in love with their own fabricated reflection in the eyes of the OM.


BH deserves better. His needs met AND an honest, loyal partner!

Ahuman,

It is a very personal decision to seek therapy. I don't know that you are in the position to make that decision.

Personally, I like how you started your plan -- focus on what you can control. Be kind when he is kind; get out of there when he is no.

We got absolutely nowhere until I figured that out. The worst plan I tried was to force him to spend time with me. He later described it as "torture". How successful do you think therapy is for an adult who is told that he must go because you decided he needs it?

I think the most important thing is to leave when he is nasty. If you just did that, he may start to realize that you aren't going to stick around for abuse.

Cherished

I get so tired of hearing this...


when you were doing sexual stuff with OM, you weren't thinking, "Wow...this really fulfills my need for adoration!"

Please. He was getting 110% of your attention, and you were getting his.

Otherwise, you could've bought a vibrator.

You may be remorseful, but I'll call you and any other FWS on their b.s. like that all day long.

You know, it is pretty darn common around here for posters to flood a thread about a BS who is still struggling after several years with comments to the effect it is patently obvious the BS is still not getting their needs met, or they are simply not getting from the WS whatever something it is they need to heal.

Happens all the time! So it is interesting to me it to see it took several pages before those kind of comments appeared on this thread. I wonder why?

Timely or not, such comments are nonetheless accurate and true. So, let me repeat it in my own words.

Your BS is not getting something he needs to heal.

It is as simple as that.

So, what does he need?

The BH of a serial and LTA adulteress needs some significantly different things from what the BH of a garden variety adulteress needs. And in your case, there are some specifics that seem to play a big role.

Let’s see. If I were to start free associating and compile a list of things bugging your BH and feeding his PTSD and causing occasional loss of his death-like grip on his anger it might look sort of like this:

OM died. The only reason your LTA ended is OM is dead. Otherwise it would still be going on.

OM died. Your BH never got a chance to confront him.

OM died. He got away with it.

You loved OM’s (either or both OM) little finger more than you have ever loved your BH in his entirety. There is nothing you or he can do such that he will ever forget this.

You put more effort into and received more enjoyment from your EA and especially your LTA than you have ever put into your marriage to your husband (this one really bites) at any time, not even during your honeymoon.

You lied, lied, lied and then you lied some more and for years and years and years. His marriage to you feels to be a living breathing putrid lie of itself, a smoke-and-mirrors illusion completely controlled by you. It apparently always was and probably still is.

You are in fact not who he thought you were. He is very frustrated knowing he cannot do anything about it.

He loved you so much, tried so hard, yet still you committed multiple adulteries and an LTA.

He no longer trusts anyone and anything. Nothing in life is guaranteed real.

He feels as if he does not belong on this planet. He feels stranded and not human.

You live in France so your BH is facing an entirely different societal view of adultery than his ethics can deal with. He feels trapped in a society in which adultery is generally acceptable and is always kept quiet. He probably has absolutely no one to talk to who is on the same side of the ethics of this situation as he. He cannot even get the satisfaction of exposure. There aren’t any marriage councilors in France worth an ounce of salt anyway. He is completely alone in this.

He is definitely and most provably one of the most laughable fools of a man that has ever lived. The sooner his life is over the better.

Sex is scary. OM was better, of course, no matter what you might say now. The LT in your LTA proves it. He will never be able to measure up now. Not with you, and not with any woman anywhere, ever.

You never met his ENs before or during the years of your adulteries. You aren’t meeting any of them now either. In fact, he can’t possibly let you meet any of his ENs now. That would be emotional suicide.

He fears for the future and welfare of his children. (And he still at times wonders deep down and late at night whose children they might really be.)

There are triggers everywhere he looks. In everything he does. They simply won’t go away no matter what he tries to do to suppress them (the involuntary head shaking, for example).


There are many, many more of these little tidbits. An exhaustive list would take an entire thread of its own. But perhaps you see a tiny piece of the picture now, finally. We can hope.

Your BH is falling apart. And it may be accelerating.

But, of course, all you care about is him picking himself up and damn well carrying your marital needs.

As if he hasn’t been! He always thought he was, but obviously he can’t, hence your multiple adulteries and your LTA. So why should he even try.


What precisely is it you want from him, anyway? Write it down for him, or something.

Your wants seem to be as foggy and as ambiguous as his PTSD issues are real and solid.

He sounds like me, only worse.

That is scary.

He should be directed to this site, if he'll even give it a try. At least it's a place to vent.

Actually, I wouldn't recommend it. He should go straight to the counseling center. He needs more and better help than he will ever find on these amateur forums.

Venting is good though.

You may and I appreciate your stepping up to say what you tink because I am here to learn.

But it is not b.s.

An essential part of my getting out of this mess (and not repeating it) was understanding that was MY inability to properly address MY needs not being met (be more forceful in communicating to my BS, if no improvement, then leaving). I was the problem. This is what we FWS mean when we say it was not about the OP.

Agreed. But my point is that I have had enough of him saying he is sorry about it, enough of him saying that he can fix it on his own. I dont believe it. He needs to take a overt and serious step to change the core issues that cause this.

By the way....my plan is working!


Last night I arranged to meet him for a drink while the kids went to Judo. I wore an outfit I know he loves! We dropped the kids off together and spent some alone time. He was distant, sort of resisting me I guess. But I made sure not to focus on relationship talk and just wanted to have a nice relaxing time. He proposed we watch a movie (which we rarely do during the week) after the kids go to bed. This got botched as you will see.

We ended up having a "conflict"--at some point he needed something from me, was being impatient and then frankly just down right rude! I put it down. Walked a way-no words, just actions. Stepped outside, took a breather and then went about the evenings business...dinner, dishes, laundry. I was VERY careful not to love bust. I didnt give him the silent treatment, but I didnt initiate conversation. I was "professional" in a sense--just distant but polite--focusing on my evening job as house and children manager, if you will.
When I got out of the shower, he was in bed with the lights off. (We usually always make a point of going to bed "together").

I went to sleep....BUT THEN...when he left this morning he came in to say goodbye and was affectionate and wispered in my ear "thanks for dressing up for me last night". I told him that I loved him, that he hurt me again. He said "I know."

It may not sound like progress--but I can TELL he gets it--so I feel like it is working....we still have much progress to make.

But I feel a renewed sense of hope and energy to invest!

Thank you MB.

Ahuman,

One Christmas Eve, he was yelling at me, I tried to leave, and he wouldn't let me get my coat and shoes, so out into the Minnesota snow I went. It sounds very dramatic, but I was not going to stick around. He asked me to come back in...

He still gets angry, and I still get away from him. Any response other than getting away from him is like oxygen to a fire. He knows he hurt you. I wouldn't even tell him he hurt you. Just get away from him.

That's step one.

You reclaim your dignity when you do this. If he ever keeps you from leaving, get away even if it means calling the cops.

Dr. Harley's first rule for negotiation is "make conversations pleasant and safe." The only way I could do that was to stay away from him.

By the way, my husband has been in lots of anger management therapy. It gave him a terror of jail. He did learn techniques to calm down. The angry outbursts continued, but they weren't physical. What has really helped me to stop has been lack of oxygen to a fire -- I wouldn't put up with them anymore.

The book "Why Does He Do That?", by the way, is written by a man who founded a group therapy approach to anger management for men, and it is written for the woman in the abusive relationship.

Cherished

Thanks Cherished. I didnt tell him he hurt me until the next day. When he was acting disrespectfully, I got up and left.

Cherished--how long have you been dealing with this?

Well, let's see, in October, 1994, he broke a windshield and said, "See what you made me do." There was yelling and throwing before that, but the broken windshield was very memorable.

Personally, I think the problem was an inversion of male and female roles. I tried to take charge of our marriage and get him on track to be a provider so I could be a stay at home mother. He felt like a paycheck. He also felt like I was treating him like a slave. I remember his once saying, "I wasn't a human being. I was your human being."

Things have really improved this year. I finally decided I have two choices -- accept or leave. I had thought of it as stay with a guy who treats me badly or divorce. What I have come to realize is that there are many levels of "leave". The first level is to leave at the first hint of disrespect. If the conversation is unpleasant for me, I end it. Period.

It's nice to just be able to have a pleasant conversation about the day.

Cherished