I did not give a concrete diagnosis, i gave an opinion; a diagnosis comes from a doctor about an illness or condition.

I did not give an opinion on your entire situation, I gave you an opinion on the information provided, with whatever limitations the information contains. However, defense is always a good offense when stating that the information is limited in this thread. That statement is true about this entire board, every thread and every posting is only a limited view of the person. . . that was a very "deflecting" comment, wanting to dismiss a differing opinion because it disagrees with your own, or those you choose to believe as best.

I did not say i was right, I have a differing opinion from the readings i have done, and from the life experiences which i have. There are millions of experienced people in the world, a good portion of them will have differing opinions. Just because you paid for some opinions, in your mind, that may make them more valuable, that's your right. . . however, on an internet chat board, you are very likely to get differing opinions just for the reason that any internet capable person can read it and respond and disagree.

Thanks for the sentiment, but I get to decide who i waste my time on. I know you don't like judgements, but without judgements, you can't get an opinion. and without judgements, child molesters are nice people as well. . . I work with at least one of whom I know.

If you only want your opinion validated by the board, that's fine. If you dislike devil's advocate, that's fine, if you dislike a negative or different opinion than your's, that's fine. The hyperbole tells me so, however, the fact that the board is an internet chat board, lends itself to differing opinions, and maybe even intelligent opinions from other's experiences. BTW, i have been "right" more than several times with "differing" opinions from the pavlovian responses given here.

its your life. you can do whatever with my opinion, or anyone elses, as you have that freedom being a human being, a homo sapien.

good luck,

wiftty

"real" being paying. . . parenting is not a job. . . its a responsibility

wiftty

Yes wiftty, I realize that. Thank you for confirming and validating that. Good night.

I suppose this is really a matter of semantics and we can agree to disagree, but I consider parenting a job as well as a responsibility just I consider a paying job a responsibility.

Seabird,

I was going to stay out of this thread because I did not want to burst your bubble, but now that others have done so, I will state that I had the same reaction as wiftty (based on what you said, granted), and that is that there are significant red flags in your relationship that you seem keen on ignoring rather than addressing.

I would suggest dating her for at least one more year before rushing to the "next level". There is always time for things to progress naturally, and you can't "unprogress" them once they move too far. What's the hurry?

AGG

I am somewhat neutral in this discussion and would point out that "red flags" are a point of perception. Everyone's perceptions can be different.

That being said, and I mean this with no disrespect, both AGG wifty raise the specter of red flags, but provide no solid examples. Specifics, please gentlemen, for the benefit of all, and perhaps for a more universally constructive argument.

There seems to be some missing context, and if the fault is mine, I apologize.

Firstly, what red flags re money do you guys see? I am being accused of ignoring these flags which implies that I am aware of them. I am not. I have acknowledged that my GF is hesitant about having a joint checking account and fears that I will critique her spending. Personally, I think her concerns are normal given the fact that she's never had to answer to anyone else re her spending. Is this really a red flag or simply a matter to be addressed? Is it her revolving debt? She's already volunteered that she will clear it before we marry. What else can I ask of her? Is it her investment debt? I don't see that as a flag at all. Indeed, I regard it as a strength.

I am here discussing, and seeking advice and input which certainly doesn't make me feel like I'm ignoring these issues. I was dismissive of wiftty's advice mostly because it was so poorly delivered IMO. He stated unequivocally and in absolute terms that:
-"{I am} not ready for a second marriage yet..."
-"{I} haven't figured out the characteristics of {MY} best partner's qualities."
-"...there are so many red flags with {my} current GF (though he doesn't list a single one for inspection), which are brought to the surface with stress of employment issues, that {I am} again asking for difficulties."

And finally that:
-"{I} need to keep working on understanding personalities and psychology."

This all presumably before wiftty feels that I'm ready to be married again. Did he neglect what I said about she and I planning to seek pre-marital and financial counseling? And not once, in his entire first post did he qualify his words as opinion. It annoyed me that for all of his own implied understanding of personal psychology, he failed at one of the most fundamental elements of communication with his repeated use of "You" statements and unclarified absolutes. While this might not necessarily negate the information behind his words, it certainly does make me question his credibility in terms of knowing what he's talking about. All IMO and perception of course.

And finally, who says we're trying to hurry? We're not looking to get engaged tomorrow and married next month. Come February, we'll have been dating for a full year. I would like to be able to present her with a ring by the time April rolls around, but that timeline isn't set in stone. In fact, I do believe that I mentioned more than once in this thread that we're still just in the "talking about it" stage. Or should we not even be doing that??? From there we will set a date, but we also have a number of other significant matters to address in terms of wrapping up our personal responsibilities so that we can be married. Frankly, I would be shocked if we manage to tie the knot before the end of 2009. 2010 is far more likely.

What we are committing to at this point in time is getting our personal lives in order to make a marriage possible later. Honestly, if some people believe that a minimum 2 year relationship prior to marriage constitutes being in "a hurry", then we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

I really do appreciate the desire to help and assist AGG, and I really don't mean to come across as snarky or dismissive to you. You've been very helpful to me in the past, and I do value your input. What I am going to ask of you going forward is greater specificity re your concerns. Warning me of significant red flags without telling me what they are in your view, is alarming to me.

Seabird, no worries, I don't see you as being snarky towards me at all, so we're cool .

I guess the concern I see is that you and Jill seem to be a bit more "on a schedule" than I would feel comfortable with. And believe me, I speak from the BTDT standpoint, not at all a holier than thou perspective.

I have also been in relationships where things have moved along and discussions of the "next step" came up, before I was truly and deeply comfortable with "the present". In other words, I was still sitting there thinking "hmm, can I live with X, Y, or Z traits or habits", while also feeling some very subtle pressure that "hey, it's been 9 months, I don't wanna date around forever".

I much prefer my current relationship, where I have been dating for almost 2 years and yet feel no pressure from J to go to the "next step". It has given me time to look at her spending, shopping, and savings habits; her behavior around her and my friends; her behavior around my kids, etc. These are all things that you can't just talk about, they are things that need to be experienced, and experience takes time, and lots of it. That is what I mean by "what's the hurry?".

As for other red flags I see, you guys are right, one person's red flags may mean nothing to someone else, and that is fine. But here is what I see:


It's not the debt or the credit that I see as an issue, it's the pattern. You are apparently debt-averse, she apparently is not. This is the deeper issue that even clearing her debt will not resolve - if she is OK with big revolving debt and you are not, it is likely to rear its head again in the future.



This is something that can get you in trouble, IMO. Again, I'd give it a few months of observations to see if you can come to terms here. How will you react when she goes out and gets a $5000 computer system that you think could have or should have been a $1500 on-sale item? And how will she feel when you tell her you don't like her getting that $1000 outfit that she just found at the store?


I am dating a NMNK woman as well, so I do understand a part of this difference in backgrounds. But I would go slow in dismissing it as just "something that she does not understand". She may NEVER "understand" this, i.e. she may not agree with you on this, and then what? If you feel that this IB was responsible for the death of your first marriage, and Jill has a very IB based mindset, aren't you setting yourself up for a problem? Yes, I know, Jill and your ex are two different people, but we are known to often find the same people to date all over again, if we are not careful, right?

Anyway, I am happy that things are going well, I just get a subtle gut feel that you are rushing despite the concerns, rather than working through them before rushing . KWIM?

AGG

AGG, this was the kind of well-crafted response I find valuable. I will try and respond without refuting.


Okay, I understand. I do appreciate the benefits of experience.


Are you asking me if I am feeling time pressure to make a marriage happen (either from her or from within)? I want to clarify that this is your observation or concern before I speak on it.


This is a well-made point and I agree with it. I'm not ready to make it a deal-killer (and I don't think you're suggesting that it is). It is one of the things that she and I both need to address and I believe that we need to meet in the middle a little bit. I recognize that my financial austerity isn't always reasonable and it currently exists as a result of my D. It's simply a result of me taking on a household that was once the purview of two equal income earners. I've had to cut waaaaay back on a lot of extras that I used to have no problem with. She does recognize her tendency to carry more debt than me, but to her credit, she has also expressed a desire to modify that behavior without any prompting from me. She brought it up all on her own. I see it as a positive signal, but not a concrete guarantee. Definitely something to work on, yes.



Well, that's exactly the reason I sought assistance via this thread. Better now than after we're married, right? I want her to understand the importance of POJA in these situations. As I explained it to her, I don't want her to NOT make these sorts of purchases and I don't want to necessarily talk her out of them. I'm no money-Nazi, and I don't want to control her through the pocketbook. I would however expect to be consulted on large purchases prior to her making them so that we can both be comfortable that they're affordable purchases at that moment in time. Again, she actually suggested a hard value on her own that we would need to agree on before I even started this thread.

Bear in mind that I'm not always frugal. If I felt like I could afford it, I'd buy a $70K Corvette Z06; an outrageous notion to some. It is also anathema to my GF who's never bought a new car once in her life. Her current vehicle, a 4 year old VW (bought 2 years ago), is also the nicest she's ever owned.


Agreed. I feel that the IB was just one element of the failure of my M. Things like separate accounts were merely indicative of that, not necessarily the catalyst. Ironically though, I encouraged the IB at the time. I mistakenly thought it would be a good strategy to protect my children should anything ever happen to me and my XW (wife at the time) was forced to make do on her own. I wanted her to be able to take care of the kids and provide for them by herself. It sounds so stupid now, but it made sense to me at the time. I didn't realize that I was helping to hasten the demise of the M.


I think I do KWYM. Does it help if I put it this way?:

I am not rushing to resolve these issues before an impending concrete date which will happen regardless of our progress. The marriage will absolutely depend on our reaching satisfaction on our divergent issues first. Does that sound more reasonable? It is my conscious intent. The schedule I've offered up is a bit arbitrary, but I think that Jill and I are both clear that several things need to be cleared up before we reach the checkered flag.

AGG,

A very nice post, the kind I would personally like to see more of, structured, well thought, etc.

Dr. Seabird,

I would like you for having these very rational and important thoughts about a serious relationship. who else has ever addressed this prior to marriage?

Here are the red flags. You seem gung-ho about combining finances, but you two have fundamentally different attitudes about spending money. She does not seem warmed up to the idea of combining things yet. This is why others are counseling you to slow down.

wanna - Have you read the entire thread? I'm not "gung-ho" about anything. And please explain what you mean by "slow down". Can you characterize my current speed and describe for me the speed at which I should be moving? And what precisely should I be doing in the meantime while I'm going slow? Should I:

-discuss the issue with her at great length in order to achieve a consensus before we move forward? Check!

-seek alternative points of view from objective sources, both professional and personal? Check!

-ensure that she and I resolve these issues and develop a financial plan for the future before tying the knot? um... Check!

I'd also like to know how you characterize us as having "fundamentally different attitudes about spending money" given all the information I've tried to present. Jill and I have some different priorities w/re to what large expenses are justifiable. I've acknowledged this, but I'm not sure that equates to fundamentally different attitudes.

Do some people here feel that all couples should see eye to eye on everything from the ground up before getting married? I admit, that's a nice thought - that both partners can think exactly alike on all things. It would render having to negotiate for POJA entirely moot, because POJA would always be automatic. Unspoken even!

Frankly, I think that standard is impossibly high. In my estimation, MB methods are effective at recognizing that we're all different people, with different histories and backgrounds and experiences. Harley has laid out a system that, while taking these differences into account, allows us to work with our partners in a way that doesn't feel like either person is taking a loss or compromising something important.

So, rather than simply say, "red flags, slow down", how about offering me something a little more substantial. Or at the very least, acknowledge ALL of the information I've made available in this thread before weighing in. I don't think I'm being unreasonable here.

Here on the internet it's easy to flippantly weigh in on other peoples' personal matters, because, good info or bad, at the end of the day the impact to the pontificator's own personal life is minimal. Please keep that in mind if I view some of these very general critiques with little enthusiasm, because that generality doesn't offer me much value.

So wanna, let me ask you point blank... Given the red flags that you've observed above, and the plan of action I have outlined going forward to address those flags, what else should I be doing?

Seabird, I wasn't asking you anything, I was only sharing about me . But from your posts, I do perceive (perhaps incorrectly) a certain rush to a destination, that being marriage. Now, I don't recall if Jill wants kids, in which case the bio clock would be at issue, and I can't comment on that. But if it is not an issue, I will say again, why rush? And I do think that when you are dating in "complicated" situations like we are in (small kids, meeting someone who is NMNK, different spending habits, different relationship history, etc), it is best to focus on the journey and not on the destination.

I have been dating J for almost two years, and I can tell you that even at the 1 and 1.5 year marks, there were some things that made me think "wow, maybe this is not meant to be". With time, all those questions were resolved; but I would have hated to be thinking those thoughts after becoming engaged.


You know, I think part of my "problem" with your approach may stem from how I view engagement/marriage, which is probably different from most folks. I tend to think that you should not get engaged until all the questions/issues have been resolved and you know you are ready to be married; the engagement period is thus nothing more than the time needed to implement the marriage ceremony. But I do realize that many others view the engagement period as one where there are still things to work out, and if they don't, the wedding can be called off. So I dunno, maybe this is why I keep asking why hurry with the talk of making things permanent if you still have things to work out or address - but maybe it's just me .

AGG

AGG - I think I understand where you are coming from. Are you saying that this appears rushed because we're discussing engagement before we've settled all of our known, open questions and issues? I can totally understand your advising caution if that is the case.

Please keep in mind that we are addressing these issues now, before we're engaged, and that I'm not on any firm timeline. I'm beginning to think that I've given the impression that Jill and I are further along in the process than we really are. It is my hope to have these things resolved (or at least significant progress made) by the time I pop the question.

I absolutely won't walk down the aisle until they're all settled.

EDIT to add: The baby discussion is also something we are having, but I am not interested in discussing any of that here.

The "que sera sera" method? Well I do declare AGG, looks like you've come over to the dark side Lovesit!

S'cuse the threadjack Seabird, but I just HAD to jump on the opportunity to razz ole AGG.......

As for your sitch, I couldn't agree more w/ what AGG said here I'm currently engaged (have been for a year now) and into year 4 w/ fiance. I can honestly say I was solidly in the googly/honeymoon/everything he does and says is cute, funny, precious phase for 2 years. It would have been a DISASTER for us to have gotten married in that time. Not saying you are all googlified and not thinking rationally, but time, YEARS can be so invaluable. You can DISCUSS your differences all you want and formulate plans and compromises, but only time affords you the luxury to see if those compromises can reasonably be put into effect to the benefit and happiness of you both. As they say, actions speak louder than words.

Personally, I'd put the idea of possibly proposing by April aside and just go w/ the relationship flow and you both can watch, listen, talk and learn more about one another.

Just my .02!

Yup, that's the new me (well, I should say the new-for-the-past-three-years me... . I like it much better this way!


First, congrats DW . When's the wedding?

Second, this is exactly what I was trying to say to Seabird - that when you are still infatuated, all "obstacles" seem small compared to the love you feel, and it is easy to negotiate and "give away" some of the impediments - "sure, I'll save more", "sure, no problem on moving", "of course, I don't mind doing x y z"... But as we all know, once the honeymoon is over and you are left with the day to day life, people do tend to get back to their "real" selves. So what may have been a "sure, I will change" feeling during dating may give way to "don't try to change me" feeling after marriage.

I am suggesting to not start talking about how you are going to resolve the issues, because that already creates an expectation that you will get married. I really think that you should do what DW is saying - keep dating and observing, without stating outright that you plan to get married if you can work out the issues.

I may not be verbalizing this well, but I do see a big difference between spending time observing someone and being actively involved in trying to find a compromise for issues.

AGG

Er, I'm finding that my que sera sera attitude is falling over into wedding planning also I keep saying "spring" then "fall" and both of those have come and gone, w/ me saying, "huh, when did that happen?", sooooooooo, not really sure. Maybe fall? All I know is, it's going to be small, fun and casual. I just wish it didn't involve lots of planning, time or money.

Definitely 2009. I think. :crosseyedcrazy:

Yes. What he said!

Seabird,

you are a more concrete person . . . concepts are a more difficult topic. I work by intuition, which means behavioral pattern matching to past examples of either or all of my experiences, my education, and or my readings. I happen to read alot, but i strictly limit my reading to only educational material. My intuitive pattern matching does not lend itself to your concrete example requests. My intuition works by interpreting the words which are written, and whether all the words point in a congruent direction or not. Hence, our personality types are different, as each of us interprets the world through different characteristics, very similar to you and your girlfriend.

When i read your words in your responses, your statements are not congruent, meaning that you are typing responses which have conflicting interpretations. I will try to be concrete in my interpretations, but since others have reached similar conclusions, you might want to consider the motivations behind your words.


so you have agreed to get married, and there is a schedule. unofficially, you are engaged, as you agree you are going to be married. later on in this thread, when questioned, the responses are defensive, because of the nuance of with a ring or without a ring, as in officially or unofficially. However, there is an agreement and a shared goal. So why nuance the situation with the formality of a ring? This type of incongruent thinking is a red flag about Seabird, as seabird can speak out of both sides of his mouth with an agreement to be married, but not definately because of the lack of the materialistic portion of the promise.


Your readers may get the impression that your approach to getting from the above stated agreement to the proposal is a matter of discussion and agreement. Discussion is to identify issues, (good), discuss issue resolution (good), and if there is an easy resolution to this one discussion, then the issue is resolved forever. check! Are you an ISTJ? your approach is a very ISTJ approach to solving a problem, which is good in the more concrete job world, but is not very effective in the emotional world of the abstract and conceptual. hence, my comment about being ready for marriage is NOT just about have a discussion to resolve current issues for the rest of your life, as there are many different versions of the current issues which will come up again, as the issues will always be there with differences of personality types.

Being ready for marriage means that you share many of the same values, and view the world and life in similar ways. If you don't, then you have to respect and value the other person's differences, not resolve them now with discussions, which will all change again when you are living together.


If you can't answer that question, you aren't ready to be married. You are missing the fundamental point of your issue: have you observed Jill long enough to know IF her concern can be addressed and IF Jill can hold to the resolution? There was one poster on MB that got duped by her fiance for 5 years, and then as soon as they got married, he changed into a very controlling husband. Everybody in her family loved him, he was great, UNTIL the wedding. . . afterwards, he was completely different. In order to determine whether an issue can be resolved, and permanently, the answer does not take just a discussion, but a discussion and then observation to validate if the person has really changed. . . the better bet is to get a person you don't have to change any of the fundamentals, but with the changes from independent to teamwork, have you observed enough consistent teamwork behaviors to believe that the independent self won't ever return??

seabird, there was too much non serious responses to your initially posted question, that is why i was more than blunt. But because of the bluntness, you were forced to respond in such a way that others could also respond so that you can educate yourself about yourself. As many have. . .

however, personality typing is very important, as the difference issues are consistent between personality types, regardless of individuals, and that is a very important piece of information not to understand, which i am not sure you do.

wiftty

Specifically, what else should you be doing is observing incongruencies in Jill's behavior, and her ability to negotiate and be a team with you, on all matters. you are engaged with the agreement to get married, make sure that you now act, decide, plan and discuss as a couple, and that Jill is in agreement with this approach, and that she can stick with this approach. . meaning, not 50% of the time, or 80% of the time, but 95% of the time. . .

observe how long it takes for you and jill to come to an agreement on issues. which issues are not getting resolved easily and PERMANENTLY. . observe how many agreements are broken, or nuanced and weasled out of complying. Observe what kind of disagreements you have, basic value ones? or variations on the extremes of the basic values?

wiftty

This is what I have been referring to as well - once you agree that you'll become officially engaged in the next few months, you essentially become "unofficially" engaged, and are no longer simply observing the person and their behaviors to see if they are right for you. You are in a way putting pressure on yourselves, which is what I was referring to earlier - pressure because you have made commitments to each other, ones that I feel are premature based on how long you've known each other and on the somewhat significant challenges that have been identified.

AGG