Hey, Marty. For what it's worth, if my H had given me an on-the-spot ultimatum to "choose H or the OM right now" when I was in the thick of my PA last spring, I would have left my H. Not to run to my OM (OM was married and lives far away), but because it would have been the final straw of H once again controlling me. (I know this sounds ridiculous since I was the one violating our marriage vows, but I was blaming H for everything.) That's where my state of mind was. I had one foot and the other 4 toes out the door and that would have sealed it for me.

I believe there is a difference between an ultimatum and a boundary or boundaries. It's semantics, but it makes a difference to me. According to dictionary.com, ultimatum means: "a final, uncompromising demand or set of terms issued by a party to a dispute, the rejection of which may lead to a severance of relations or to the use of force." Boundary means: "something that indicates bounds or limits; a limiting or bounding line." I see an ultimatum as an absolute that offers no forgiveness -- no flux and no do-overs. Once an ultimatum is issued, it must be stuck to or any authority (for lack of a better word) is forever lost. This applies to ultimatums given at work, in a relationship, in raising kids, anything. Boundaries, however, allow for tolerance -- allowing for different pre-determined responses based on the specific situation. If you issue an ultimatum that if your W doesn't stop contact with OM this moment then you're getting a D, you can't take W back the next day or the next week or a month later after she realizes the mistake she's made. If you do, she'll never believe your "threats" again. If, however, you decide to go Plan A and/or Plan B and you set boundaries or rules during this time in order for you to work within the relationship (like she cannot talk with OM while in your home, can't talk about him) that's giving her choices with consequences that she can learn from, hopefully change her behavior, and still have a chance at being with you. Ultimatums give no hope. Boundaries do.

I so admire what MrsZ and MrZ have gone through and what they're doing. I've taken strength especially from her story. MrsZ wrote a few posts back that, "After a few months of very bumpy recovery where I continued to lie to him about the details of the affair, we finally called the Harleys. During those rough months, Mr Z left me several times." I see this more of a boundary than ultimatum -- that MrZ can't live with a liar so as long as she's lying, MrZ won't live with her. However, if she changes and later decides to live by this, he will come back. So something she/he did allowed him to keep coming back and trying again. If he had said, "lie just once and I'm gone for good" (and maybe he did say this), and if he had stuck to it, perhaps they wouldn't be together now. (This is all presumptuous of me, I realize, and I apologize if I've misinterpretted what happen in order to illustrate my point here, MrsZ and MrZ.)

You know you and your wife best so it's up to YOU to decide what YOU can and should do. I'm just a rookie here and by no means an expert at MB. All I can offer is if you truly want to try to save the marriage, listen to the vets here, understand what you can and want to live with, implement your plan (A, B, or D), and follow through.

Take care.

***EDIT*** someone other than your spouse is a boundry.

Telling your spouse if they ***EDIT*** someone else the marriage is over is stating your boundry with words.

iam -- that makes absolutely no sense.

Mrs. Z, you dont know if your husband would have never done Plan A. You see, until we are put in the situation, we can talk all we want to. I was the type of guy, before my wife's A, that would talk like MyRev and company. No way I would ever let someone do that to me...I have too much pride to allow that.

But then D-Day hit, and after the dust settled, I was confronted with the choice of bouncing my WW out on her butt or doing the hard thing in life, and loving someone that was unlovable at the time. I chose the second.

I didnt chose the second necessarily because I wanted my WW back. I chose the hard road because:

1. I knew I was responsible (at least half responsible) for the conditions of the marriage that led to the environment where my wife made the decision to get into an affair.

2. Because I had three kids at the time, and it is a well known FACT that children in broken homes ALWAYS lose somethings that an intact home would have given them. Children ALWAYS suffer in divorce, although some more than others!

3. Afer reading Dr. Harley's books, and talking with Steve Harley a few times, I realized there was much work that I had to do to be a better husband, even if it wasnt going to be with the current Mrs. Mortarman. Plan A allowed me to do that...and under some very extreme conditions.

4. There is a huge difference between PRIDE and HONOR. I chose the honorable route, which is usually the most painful. I wanted at the end of the day, that my wife, my kids and my God to be able to look at me and know that I had done it right. That I had been the man I was supposed to be. That I had EARNED my way out of the marriage.

5. My vows did not have an "adultery clause." My vows, which were said to my wife and my God, were for me to love, honor and cherish, in sickness and in health, in good times and BAD TIMES, for as long as we both shall live. Well, it doesnt get any "BADDER" than an affair!

6. Since I was a Christian, I was forced to look at myself, at what my role is as a husband (see my link below for more information). I was forced to realize the truth...which was I was to love my wife as Jesus Himself loves me. A love that means I love the other person, no matter if they deserve my love...and even if they are actively running from my love. So, if I was called to do this...then I couldnt throw her to the curb...as Jesus never did that to me!

You see...if it were just one or two of the things I had listed, then I would have just left her and walked on. But, I believe as the Bible states...that my wife and I are one flesh. One person. So, when a marriage ends, it means one flesh is torn into two flesh. Well what happens when you tear one flesh into two flesh. Both die!

I understand, as do all BSs, that it is HARD to do this. But I also understand that it is very simple! BSs on here begin to find out what the difference is between simple and easy!

But nothing easy is ever worth much! As I have said before, I had to confront the question: how much is the wife of Mortarman worth? Not WW of Mortarman...the WIFE of Mortarman. Who decides her worth?

Well, I decide her worth. How? By how much I am willing to pay. That is the worth of Mrs. Mortarman, no matter who she is. It is easy to "pay" when things are "health, good times and rich." The mark of a true man and a man of honor is what he does in the "sickness, bad times, poor" times.

If I had thrown away my wife, I would have shown to everyone, including her and our children, that their mother...and my wife...was worth very little. She was just trash to be thrown away!

I have gone on here and didnt mean to! But, I will say that Mrs. Z...you have no idea what your husband would have done. I spent 21 years in the Army. We all talked about what we would do if we went to war. But, what is said before...and what happens once you are there, are often two different things!

It makes perfect sense. Maybe you just don't understand it.

Oh and Mrs. Z...it is evidence of how much you are worth because your husband was willing to forgive and recover. So, dont apologize because you WERE a WW!! You are not that person...you are Mrs. Z and worth a whole lot as is evidenced by what Mr. Z was willing to pay!!

You really need to realize that much of this thread illustrates the vast differences in personality types, and as such, much that has been written on this thread is not understood by many that are reading it.

I posted my thoughts for those who understand and can relate to my personaltiy. I won't waste my time trying to convince anyone who doesn't understand my personality of the value of my perspective. Those who understand ... GET IT ... and those who don't, likely never will and vice versa.

well help me then....


How is "***edit***" someone else a "boundry" (boundary)??

Marty,

Let me help you a little with the intel gathering. My wife was also the SAHM. By the time I was done with intel gathering, there was almost nothing I didnt know!

So, first of all, let's map out when your wife has the possiblity of being with the OM (like the recent time when she was home alone). When does she have the opportunity to see him?

MM has a way with words, I could have said the same thing.

I was out socially with my WW last night, and....I'm just proud she is my wife. She looks beautiful and young and people gravitate toward her. We laughed and had a lot of fun with each other.

Plus, logistically, it usually isn't the man who gets "bounced on his butt' at least in this state. You are throwing yourself out of your home and family, most likely, once WW lawyers up...

Thanks Mortarman, as of right now she is at home everyday by herself while I am out at work. Both kids are in school. I feel I may have confronted too soon, as I believe it is definitely heading underground. I checked her cell last night, and she has figured out how to delete her recent record of who she is texting. Does this not mean she is totally trying to cover her tracks, something I can approach her on? Do I wait to try and get more intel, or do I just go back at her with the evidence I have to this point?

Get more intel! It has the ability to help you understand what is TRULY going on and will keep her from wriggling out when you confront.

So, what you need to do is to get more intel. If yo ucant afford a PI, then here's what I would do (and have done):

1. Get voice activated digital recorders...ones that record all day or for a long time. Place them in strategic points in the house, where you know she will talk. My choice was near our bed, in the kitchen and next to where she always sat while watching TV in the family room. I also had one hidden in her car.

2. If you can do it, skip out of work during the times where she is truly alone. When the kids are at school. Let her know the day before that you have a meeting for an hour or so during that time. That way, she wont try to call work to check to see if yo uare there, before she does whatever she is doing. Once yo uare out of work, get to a position in the neighborhood where yo ucan see your house and can monitor who comes and goes. I borrowed a friend's car from work on the occasions where I did this, so she wouldnt see our car.

If you cant do it yourself, see if a brother or friend of yours (good close friend) would try to get the intel for you by watching the house.

WSs are notoriously sloppy, even when they try to go underground. But, your job will be easier if you can get the intel now!

You need to spy -- otherwise she will just get more clever about hiding.

Can you put a GPS on her car?

And DVR's in your house?

Keyloggers on her computer?

Quit confronting her.
You know she's in an A, and confronting her again will not change that.
She knows you're suspicious, so she's covering her tracks (going further underground). Confronting her will only exacerbate this problem.

Plan A for now, and gather intel.

When you have proof:
1. Confront her. Tell her "I know you're having an A with OM and I find that unacceptable."
2. Expose to your WW's parents, to OM's circle of influence - do NOT let your WW or OM know you're going to do this. Just have a list and phone numbers or email addresses and go down the list. Tell them "WW and OM are having an A. I'm determined to doing whatever it takes to save my marriage and become a better husband." If it's someone you know (WW's parents) ask if they have any advice.

I agree that Plan A is the way to go. Right now every time you love bust (LB) your WW says to herself "He's impossible to live with, I can't put up with that kind of treatment for the rest of my life. I'm lucky to have found OM!" She justifies her behavior when you LB.

When you meet her ENs you prove to her that you can be the H she wants. When she mentally compares you to OM it's harder for her to find fault with you.

I was both BW and WW. When I was a WW if my H had not tried to curtail his LBs and meet my ENs, I'd have been out the door. His lack of a Plan A would have proved to me that I was making the right choice in having an A and leaving. Instead of making demands and issuing ultimatums, he showed me he could be the husband I fell in love with. It worked.

Does she text on a PC as well?

Keyboard loggers are a cheap an easy bust, in fact i paid nothing, a free trial download.

DVRs are about $30-40.

A GPS costs significant $$, over $700 from what I could see.

The downside for me was that if you do surveillance or put a DVR around, she might bust you.

I suspected, put a keyboard logger in, and had damning evidence in 12 hours with emails and chats with OM.

I found a really good and cheap way to put a GPS in a car. It provides live updates over the web at up to 1 minute intervals. Go to accutracking.com for the details. But basically, the service uses a GPS enabled motorola iDen phone from Boost Mobile (about $35) and some provided software. Then, all you need is to pay $0.35 a day for the internet service on the phone, and $6-7 for the accutracking service per month. The whole thing cost me less than $75. It is now installed under the hood of WW's car, and I always know where she is.

I am going to pick up a few activated digital recorders, and see what happens.

I guess as far as evidence goes to confront my WW, I'm still struggling with the fact I saw, with my own eyes, a text that said "Sweet dreams to you too....Have a good day tomorrow...". In my heart this is incriminating enough, along with the other documented incidents with the OM that are already out in the open and irrefutable.....am I out of line with this? Also, is it best to let her know I need to expose, or at what point in a Plan A situation do you actually expose to others? Thanks....

The problem is, 90 percent of the time, the WS and the OP will say to whomever you expose "BS is crazy and paranoid, we are just friends."

After accusing, you may not need to show the WS the actual evidence, necessarily, I just stated I had "months of nauseating emails" and was filing an adultery complaint in the AM. She didn't want that, and confessed and didn't claim any different to the family I exposed to....

ACK NO Marty! Forewarned is forearmed. You do NOT tell her that you are going to expose, you simply do it...Exposure works best when it is done in one fell swoop to all...More bang for your buck that way, if you will...It also doesn't give the infidels time to spin the story and head you off at the pass...

Mrs. W

Marty,

It's not a good idea to let her know you will be exposing. Many WS' will just paint the BS as a lunatic or someone that is very controlling.

You are not out of line with wanting your W to be faithful.

Do you understand what Plan A is and it's purpose? If not, make sure you do. Many people try to explain what Plan A is "in a nutshell" and don't always give all that people need to know. It is used to help end the A, but doesn't always. When you do a good Plan A, your W will begin to see you as a person she desires to be with. But that isn't all there is. That's why you need to read and really understand Plan A & B. Exposure takes away the fantasy and deception of the A. It also puts external pressure on her from the people she respects (assuming the won't support her and the A).

You've got some good support on this thread. Keep your head up and Blessings.

S&C