Aphelion...your posts are the farthest point from sunshine. How appropriate your name is.

But you were spot on in many ways, so thanks.


This is true. When I ask him what I can do? His common response is: "Change what you did." (Which is so frustrating to hear. He is basically saying--you put us in hell and in hell we will stay there is no way out.) You are RIGHT ON about a lot of what has bugged him. (Except he doesnt still question about the kids--they look WAAYYY to much like his family. But the thought had occured to him).


He's a Frenchie himself and not all frenchies follow the stereotype. But you are spot on about the dark ages of a counselor that we would end up if we tried to go here. And you see why finding an "Anger Management" class is laughable.


My BS is tenfold OM in bed! OM didnt have a prayer against BS.

What I got from OM was lunch and conversation--positive attention, adoration. (Which really pisses off BS, because its like--well f then, why did you sleep with him?) I get it. He didnt beleive me at first, but I have worked hard on this. Something which is not clear in my posts--was that the first 2 and moving on 3 years of recovery I went ALL IN!

I gave 110% without asking for anything in return (probably my mistake but I felt like he was beyond empty and had nothing to give back.) I messed everything up, it was my "job" to fix it (another probable mistake).

He had a laundry list of things he needed and I went for it;

He needed time away from everything, so I went back to work to support the family and give him a break and time to reassemble his life. He took a year off--we together took a five month break from work to focus on our little family, then I went back.

I arranged for sitters and set up dates. I went surfing with him (a stressful thing for me). I chopped all my hair off to a very short boy cut (He had mentioned it--sort of as a dare--as something I could do to show I was not interested in attracting other men).

I was at his beck and call at home. (I actually have spoiled him a bit too much on this kind of thing). I made myself available by phone anytime and anywhere (with a couple of mishaps admittedly, due to phone in purse or our of charge), but for the most part, and he admits this--there was a HUGE change in my availability to him.

I refused to travel for work several times when it brought me out of the country. (This cost me at work, but I didnt complain). He has since been able to accept my traveling a little, so this is a big improvement on his part.

I focused heartily on SF. (This has feigned a little because I feel so hurt by him it is harder to open up).

When his triggers come or I see him twitch, I have reached out to him, listened (even to some really hurtful comments), been affectionate and done what I can to reassure him.


I recoginze in writing this, that recently some of my efforts have feigned. I am running out of gas. AT SOME POINT, he needs to step up to the plate and invest in me and my needs.



I have on two separate occasions. I think he has felt sort of resentful--like why should I try for you after what you have done. I also think he is afraid--what if he tries, opens up, falls madly in love with me again....and bang. I lie to him.
I think he feels like life will be over then.


The reality in all of this is-- its not pretty--its not perfect--but it is what it is. I have given what I can. And to some extent I think he is TAKING ME FOR GRANTED. I will work hard for him to help him in this recovery as I have, but I am not that same little pre D Day girl that will put up with his crap from the rest of my life either--then again I am not the same little girl that would have an affair.

I am at a point where I need him to commit to me--to this M. I need him to try to fulfill my needs--to take that jump.

Things have changed.

Its time for him to.

I think this is spot on.
I am madly in love with my H again .... and I know another indescretion (even a not-quite infidelity choice on his part) will be the end of us.

It's a risk I took because he had one affair.
Quite frankly, if there had been two, I would have stayed until our youngest was graduated from high school and then divorced him.

That is possibly your husband's plan. It would be mine if I were in his shoes.

I have thought about this before. Maybe it is his plan to hang on for the next eleven years and then go. But I can only control my own contribution to this M, my own actions. I cant control his choices.

At this point, I am still prepared to work hard at investing in his ENs and to fight to demonstrate that I was a dumb 20 something girl and that a lot, A LOT has changed since then.

...and one of those changes is that I will not put up with emotionally abusive behavior, so if he wants to keep me around for even the next eleven years--he too needs to get healthy!

I was wondering what you mean specifically by emotionally abusive behavior? I am thinking that is such a vague term that it may be more useful to communicate the specifics to make the next 11 years go by more smoothly.

What I mean when I use this term in the context of my own M: put downs, name calling, unreasonable grouchiness, impatience, over-reactions that puts me on egg shells.

He has occasional AOs.

Does you H know that you feel these actions constitute abuse? If not he may see them as part of a normal relationship, they don't sound abusive when you list them out. I think you could explain to him why you can't live with those actions.

I read most of your story and I am not sure why you say he is waiting 11 years. My own plan ended at the youngest child being 18 for some I would guess 16 might do it. So that might give you 6 or 7 years.

I do not have much free time today, so very quickly…


First, he is not making choices. Just the opposite of choosing. He is flailing and tumbling and generally lost inside. No choices look good to him. So he hangs on as hard as he can while remaining as stationary as a deer in your headlights until an AO slip-up (which you label intentional emotional abuse.)

Second, eleven years is way below any horizon he can see. He sounds like he is barely making it from week to week. That is not to say such a long term eventuality has not occurred to him, probably more than once. But for him it will be quite like your six year plan, comrade. He is watching and waiting while he spends most of his emotional energy white-knuckling his PTSD symptoms. It’s sort of like my user name implies. He is coasting out there at the point where it is easiest to break out of orbit – just in case.

And thirdly, despite throwing around the word resentment so much, resentment is only very small part of what he is feeling. Mostly it is fear, embarrassment and hopelessness. It is such a huge agglomeration of things he can’t tease individual issues out. So, what are you doing to help him issue by issue, as from my sample list? He will not make progress healing if he has to bite everything you have done to him all at once. He needs help breaking it up into chunks he can actually chew on for a while.


Oh, please. What lot has changed? I don’t see it. I bet he doesn’t see it or believe it either. It is still about you. Despite what you write here, boiled down it’s still almost all about you.

Hmmm, example: so what about your daughters? You haven’t mentioned what your adulteries have done to them yet. Do they know what you did? When you do eventually leave, who gets custody of the children? Do you take them from him too? Do you care about them, about them losing their family, their daddy? Do you really, truly care about your BH? Now, not then. It is obvious you didn’t then. But it is not obvious you do now either.

What is your definition of love, now? What does caring mean to you? What is a real marriage to you? Yeah, yeah, ENs, for of course. But marriages with ENs lavishly smeared all over the place experience adultery quite often too(though very few such marriages experience multiple adulteries and LTAs like yours). How about spiritually?


This emotional abuse stuff is a red herring. You do not know what emotional abuse is. In case you don’t know, affairs are egregious emotional abuse - with life-long consequences.

And there is the $64K question. Does he? How about you forget all this EN stuff (well, not totally forget it, but don’t make it the be-all and the end-all of what you are trying to accomplish. He is not going to let you meet much of his ENs nor trust you much for a long, long time yet) it doesn’t apply to him right now and it won’t for a long time, and you mainly help him decide if he does and or will ever want you around. This may take him another year or so to know for more or less sure, but you have the time, according to your own plan anyway.

He does indeed need to get healthy. He may not be able to achieve sufficient emotional health around you in the end. But he does not know this yet. He does not know anything yet. The years since your D-Days have been wasted doing wrong and ineffectual (and basically selfish) things and wasted by you, not by him.

I do wish your BH luck. He needs it.

eta: So, if you were 20 when you were an active adulteress that means you were still barely married, right? A couple of years maybe?

If so, you should know that Dr H hisself says from mount MB the BS is better off divorcing when adulteries happen in so young a marriage. Especially if there are no children.

It’s beginning to look more and more to me like the Gordian knot BH is trying to figure out how to untie is the children.

Do you want to help your husband?

Do you want him to feel safe?

If so, then offer him everything should you divorce. Get legal documentation giving him the kids, house everything.

Step up. Prove you are for real.

There is no need for you to label his behavior as "emotionally abusive." What I did when he asked why I hung up on him or left or ended the conversation was tell him that I would not continue in a conversation which was unpleasant for me.

The word abuse can be used in an abusive way!

Cherished

Ug. Where to start on this mess is sometimes difficult and overwhelming.

Reading this board, I feel pretty hopeless. What I hear you saying is--be real lady--its over. Let this man go and move on in his healing.

You are saying that even in my attempts to help him heal, I have been selfish and that it was and is still about me, because I wanted to save the M, didnt want to "give him up". Is that what you mean? Ouch! It stings to hear this after all I have given these past 4+ years, but I understand the perspective and am considering it. (Wouldnt that just mean that anyone who is Married and invests in a M is being selfish and that they couldnt possibly be doing it FOR their spouse too?)


I am sure it sounds odd to all of you, but I DO love this man, and not just in a romantic way, and not just as the father of my children, but as a person. I know all of his layers, his quirks, habits, dreams and his stregths. I want to rebuild a life with him. It doesnt show here because I have focused on the negative--but we do have strengths as a team. You asked what M is to me? To me, it is a team.

My first response is that yes, I do love him enough to let him move on if that is the only thing that will let him heal. The kids and the impact on them is a big factor in any of this.

I will take some time to think about this. Go for a run, get my head clear.

Ahuman,
I don't think it's over. I think that you need to reclaim your dignity by removing yourself. He has been getting some benefit out of his angry outbursts, and I think it may be that he is attempting to prevent you from having another affair by showing you how much you have hurt him.
Cherished

Will you give him his 100% get out of marriage free card?

HE gets the kids.
HE gets the CS.
HE gets the house.

YOU get the ROAD.

This was ALL your doing. Prove to him you love him enough to accept the REAL consequences of your actions.

No father should lose his children because his wife chose to sleep around.

Every WW who claims they want the marriage should immediately offer full custody to the father as a pledge of faithfullness and of integrity.

Ahuman, On the chance that you actually WANT to save your marriage and are not wanting simply to be able to say that you tried everything and it couldn't be saved I am going to give you another perspective from your BH point of view. You wrote something that is very true a little while ago, Ahuman, What is the reflection YOUR BH HAS WHEN HE LOOKS INTO YOUR EYES EVERYDAY??? He sees a man who is NOT WORTH WHAT THE OM WAS TO YOU!!!

If he was worth what the OM was to you YOU WOULD BE GIVING HIM WHAT THE OM GOT WHICH IS A H*LL OF A LOT MORE THAN WHAT HE IS GETTING NOW!!!

YOU ARE ANGRY THAT THERE IS NOT MORE OF THE BLAME SHARING FROM HIS STANDPOINT AND YOU WILL BE DA*MNED IF YOU ARE GOING TO PUT THAT MUCH EFFORT INTO YOUR BH!!!

He knows from what you have confessed to him and his own common sense what the OM got which Krazy so lightly touched upon!!!

"IF" you want to save your marriage YOU MUST GIVE HIM WHAT THE OM GOT which is AN EQUAL REFLECTION OF HIS WORTH TO YOU!!!

You yourself said that in the above quote that you loved what your reflection was in the OM eyes. How do you think your BH sees himself compared to the OM??? He is not getting what the OM got so he feels that he doesn't measure up!

You can say all you want that what the OM got wasn't real. Well, to YOUR BH it was DA*NED REAL!!!

If you want your marriage YOU MUST show your BH he is EVERY BIT THE MAN AND MORE than THE OM WAS!!!

The way HE sees it he isn't or he would be getting the adoration you gave the OM so why should he even try.....

God bless.

Jim

For all you have given, huh?

Showing up in your posts is the repetitive complaint you do this and you do that but you don’t get what you are entitled to receive in return. Basically, your posts have a strong tendency to read like more and continued WW thinking. Chance of early morning fog, in a nutshell.

So, you are finally trying to act like a married person. Good for you. But this is the way you should have been acting all along!

Why do you deserve special treatment for conducting yourself the way you promised you would when you said your marriage vows? You should have been doing what you say you are doing now all along and in the first, second and third places. This person you say you are trying to become should long ago be your very nature.

Meeting your husband’s ENs, simply acting like a caring spouse, should be easy as pie. But, instead, you make it sound like it is all so, so hard for you. The way you describe it, being what you should have been all along is taking so much out of you it is not worth it if you do not get 110% returns on your investments.

You are building resentment that at times sounds like advance justification for something you have already decided to do.

Team. Shmeam. Team is not enough by itself. You were a functioning team during your adulteries. I bet you thought of BH as a competent teammate covering home plate precisely while you were out in left field boinking OM!

That certainly is one of the easier ways out. No one, not even BH himself, knows what he needs right now. That is where the work lies for both of you. Meeting his ENs mainly helps keep a lid on his boiling caldron of emotions while you do the real work.

Let me be plain here. Almost everything I have posted to you on this thread has been for your BH’s benefit, not yours. To help him by enlightening you – precisely as you asked for in your initial post. So, ignore what I write about you if you wish. It’s incidental to my intentions. But if you truly care in a non-selfish way about BH try to use for his benefit what I wrote about him.

You really should call the counseling center. So should your BH.

And stop thinking you are earning some sort of points for finally getting around to doing what you promised in the very beginning you would always do no matter what!

I will let you be now.

Well Ahuman, have you decided to enter into the fraternity of FWW's and offer your husband the kids?

It's a sign of a true former to accept 100% responsibility AND the CONSEQUENCES!

You cheated, he should NOT lose his children.

You gambled, not him. You should pay, not him.

I find it distressing that a member who has posted here helping others and tried to work on her marriage for FOUR years is getting so little helpful advice.

Giving up her kids is not something I would ever advise. Hopefully she will hang in here and see if she can get hubby to talk to the Harleys. Enough is enough, but I often see FWW's treated poorly.

The carrot/stick of Plan A was intended to help inspire a betrayed spouse during their WS's adultery.
My intent was never to guide any part of recovery with that carrot/stick idea.

I think Plan A is misguided for a marriage stuck where yours is stuck.

Why?

Because Plan A is Plan Giver. And any spouse who stays in Giver mode for too long will build resentments.

Plan A is intended to be worked unilaterally for a VERY limited time - so the person working Plan A does not build resentments


What a recovering marriage needs is Plan POJA - I've not read where you are implementing POJA into your recovery.


Bilateral resentments are killing your chances for marriage recovery.

I find this

painful to read.

See what you have to say after you study this one a little while:
*L I N K *

and then, take a look at this thread - it takes awhile to plow through - but you need to understand what your current errors are - a lack of POJA - and you are both currently renters !


* L I N K *

and after you've gone half blind reading all of that ....
*link to deepen your understanding of the good taker and how your taker helps your marriage recover*

I suspect you've been dishonest in recovery with your husband - and I don't mean dishonest about your past adultery - but dishonest about you, what you feel in the now