I know what you mean about R talk. It seems too easy for just any discussion to take that turn.

As for our dog, I have him and not her. lol

Well I have our 2 cats. she only had the dog for the weekend whilst the new owners (old friends) were away.

Apparently she got quite upset when she had to give him back. I sympathised, but in my head thought,'serves you right'.

Is that a bad thing?

Silva,

I think you made a big blunder. You promised "unconditional" love, when in fact your love is very conditional and frankly should be. You allow her to think you two will continue to be friends even after a divorce, and really all you should promise is to be "civil" because you have children. Unless you have a fondness for lying and cheating friends, in that case, she is just what you want, I would not even consider her being your friend.

I know this is coming across like a 2x4, and you would be right.

As for the drink, I am concerned because if it was a problem before, it is still a problem now, even if you think you have it under control.

Do plan A, but realize she has someone else in her life and I don't mean your dog. Also realize that she needs to file for D if in fact she wants D. but do not discuss D with her. You handled that well, but stop R and D talk. You talk marriage, your solicitor talks D OK?

Interestingly, you should note that somehow she have viewed your marriage as you over drinking and her distain for "washing socks". Seems rather limited to me, but it suggests that she has rewritten history to make your marriage miserable. Now perhaps it had more downs than ups, but you need to make sure your behavior now, addresses the downs, and reinforces the ups.

Think about it.

God Bless,

JL

I think she is having an affair, and you need to know to formulate your plan.

JL,

Thanks again for your post. I accept the 2 x 4, to an extent.

If I may reply to give you more information from my personal history.

I have been an insecure person for most of my life. I had a nervous breakdown at 18, got married at 19, divorced at 21 after 2 years of complete sexual rejection. Went travelling Europe for 6 months then came back and met my current W. We met in October 1982, moved into a flat together with another couple in December 82, they left in Feb, we stayed there until mid 83 then bought our own house. We married in Aug 84, no-one knew, they knew we were going to marry but it was a surprise as W got fed up of all bickering between families about the wedding. I was insecure in the marriage, possibly due to my prior history. I didn't feel like I could either trust or deserve my W. If she went out with friends, I would turn up later in the night to meet her. I was really bad. She put up with me though and over the years we grew together more and my insecurity waned little by little. Approx 8 years ago I got myself into a deep depression and took solace in an internet affair. This was a complete shock to W as she trusted me implicitly. We got over that and she has never mentioned it since. (until our current problems when I keep mentioning her texting and she tells me to 'get over it').

My dilemma therefore is that she feels like I am STILL 'stalking' her and trying to run her life. I have explained to her that I engineered my own downfall, have had therapy and am letting her go. I objected to being called controlling throughout our M (which W called me when we first split), I was at first, but the latter years, not at all. I have helped her complete her lifetime ambition to be a mental health nurse. She now says this training has changed her and she feels the need for independence.

Lying and cheating, that was me 8 years ago, she has apologised for HER mistake, agreed it was wrong, told me it's over and she has no interest in OM anymore and that I am only hurting both of us by bringing it up again and again. She says that as our M is now over and we are no longer a couple, that part of our history has no relevance. If I DO mention it, she closes up, gets upset and angry. She told me that after our last talk about OM she was going to tell me to only contact her via solicitors and that once things were sorted, then maybe we could be friends again. The only way I have to get her to feel comfortable in discussing things with me is to be an unconditional 'friend'. If I don't want to do that, she will accept and respect my wishes and keep herself out of my life. She doesn't want that, but will if it's what I want.

The reference to the 'washing socks' was made in agreement to something MIL said. MIL has been a widow for 8 years and when told to go out and find someone new, said no thanks and mentioned not wanting to wash someone elses socks. W now says she can empathise with her point of view.

During our last talk, W said that she now only remembers the good times in our M and can look back on them fondly and with happiness that we DID have a lot of good times. She feels like that our M has 'run it's course' but doesn't regret any of it.

My drinking was bad during my failing business and although it didn't help in my M or my business, it's not held against me. It was W who suggested that I would be able to drink the odd glass of wine as long as I didn't revert back to 'other' drinks. We both now agree that this is reasonable and acceptable.

Believer...

My plan is to be a friend, get her comfortable with talking to me about anything and everything, then she will hopefully start to open up to me again. I will plan A my butt off. She is SO closed to accepting ANY love deposits off me at the moment, it's the only way I know of to help matters. I can push all her annoyance buttons VERY easy, I can get her mad, upset, annoyed and angry. I can also make her laugh. What I am struggling with is making her feel at ease in talking to me. She feels that any conversation must be guarded in case of my reaction. She doesn't know where I am coming from or what I will say / do next.

I need to show self discipline, consistency and friendship.

Day 3 of No contact.

I actually feel better for it as well. More at peace.

That's a rather strange thing to feel.

Good though.

Wouldn't mind your input on my long(ish) post anyone, if you can spare me your thoughts.

JL, I have my hard hat on now, so can take even more 2 x 4s

Anyone, or is the time difference as I am in the UK.

Never could get the hang of the meridian :P

Silva,

I would suggest you read MortarMan's thread. In it he recaps his 4 year effort to save his marriage. I know that your situation and his are not the same, but they may be closer than you think. You will learn a lot if you read it, trust me. You will learn about the power of plan a and plan b.

Your W is in withdrawal, a state that Harley discusses in his articles on this site. It is a difficult state, but it is one that you need to understand. Another thing that you need to understand is that your W would not be gone if she did not think that her life was better with you than without you. Her perception is that it is better without you, why? You need to answer that question, and yes reading the articles on needs and taking the questionaire for both of you might help you understand.

I view this as you cannot lose no matter what happens in your marriage IF you learn how to be a better partner, spouse, husband, father, man. Evaluating yourself, your goals, how you handle things, etc will accomplish this whether or not you accomplish saving your marriage.

Please do some reading and then ask lots of questions.

God Bless,

JL

I hate to say it, but I can completely empathize with your wife. I literally dream of what it would be like to be by myself, without all the baggage of having to worry about what H wants, whether what I do will tick him off, wondering what I have to sacrifice to make sure he's happy, what I could have accomplished if I hadn't married him, what it would be like if I wasn't married to someone who expected me to do all the housework and take care of him even though we both work full time.

If she truly is over OM, the best thing you can do, IMO, is be there for her as a friend - a safe friend. That's what women want in a H anyway, a safe friend who thrills her. Take care of the safe part first. Thrills may come later.

You have a lot to offer. Accept that, and know that she may realize it and, if not, someone else will.

I'll ask since I'm interested...how does he make it "safe"?

JL,

thanks for replying. I have read MMs thread and it's an interesting read. Food for thought at the very least.

I have answered the question as to why she feels things better without me. My perception of that is that she feels unloveable and trapped whilst with me. There is a HUGE wall built up around her that I cannot penetrate by trying to be an H. As a friend, there are many holes in the wall and she feels a lot safer and easier.

I have read lots and lots, and have decided that a "safe" friend, someone to turn to, is the way forward for me.

The only question I have is how to carry that out without being intrusive. When we discussed our "friendship", she told me that I was a "very special friend" and that I would always have a place "here" (tapping her heart). "Friends don't need to be in touch every day though, there are times whe I don't call or talk to my friends for days".

It's now been 4 days with no contact, at the moment I feel emotionally better for that, but worry that I may come across as neglecting her again. I guess that if she REALLY wanted to talk, she would call. If she does, so I talk or leave the phone unanswered a couple of times and then call her back or just ignore it.

It's a tightrope I am on, that's for sure.

Cat,

Thanks for that. You know, I can actually see her point of view and told her that. I told her that I could understand how she felt and that I respected her choice.

It's my goal to be the "safe" place for her to come to. Then What may follow that, in time, well no-one knows, but it's a starting point.

I also realise that there will be others that will see I have a lot to give. I have been thinking over the last couple of days that in the end, it's HER loss, not mine. Someone will get a faithful, loving and much more knowledgable companion / friend / lover / partner (delete as appropriate!)if she doesn't.

That's easy. You be the person every woman wants - someone who is interested in you and what you have to say and what you think and feel, and wants to talk to you about it, wants to let you let out all your feelings and fears and frustrations, lets you be as vulnerable as you need to be - and will never turn it into an event that makes her afraid to share again.

I liken women to cats, and men to dogs.

Dogs go forth, willingly, unhesitatingly, even aggressively if need be, to conduct their business.

Cats hold back and watch everything. They are constantly on vigil, just waiting for that bird to swoop down and attack them, or for the dog to jump the fence and chase them. At the first instance of danger, they retreat, and nothing will get them back out from under the couch until they are totally sure the coast is clear. My mom has a cat that I've only seen twice - and both times, she was running for under the bed.

I think it harkens back to caveman days, sociologically speaking. Women depended on men for a lot - shelter, safety, food. She depended on getting the man to like her instead of the dolt next to her, so he would claim her and take care of her. Those who did it the best survived...so now you have women who look at each other and instantly assess the competition; who never show all their cards, in case they have to scramble to get back the favor they lost; who assume they have to be a certain way and attract a man - all subconsciously of course, but it's there.

So safety is a high priority for women. Other women tear us down, if we have what they want; men tear us down, if they feel (and we let them feel) superior to us; we feel obligated by society to be nice, sweet, unaggressive, and major Givers. So to find a man who will listen to you, care about your interests, never make judgments about those interests (rolling the eyes, making fun of it in front of his guy friends, ignoring it, getting mad), and actually listen to you (!)...that is a safe friend/mate.

My D18 got me to watch a reality show called Tool Academy (as in men are tools) where they think they're trying out for a contest to be some 'best man' or whatever. They're filmed acting out sexual acts, coming on to other women, bragging about how many girls they have on the side...only to find out the real show is their girlfriends wanting to give them one last chance to quit using them before the girls give up on them - teach them not to be tools. The interesting thing is that each and every female said the exact same thing - "I trusted you! I gave and gave and gave! I did your laundry! I cooked for you! I stayed home and waited for you to come back after going out with the guys! I never asked for anything! I GAVE!"

Of course, that's part of the problem, the girls were caught up in this myth about being a major Giver and the man will reciprocate, when all it does is give him license to walk all over her. But that's where the safe comes in. We need to be able to trust you not to yell, abuse, use, ignore, be superior to, criticize, dismiss...give your girl that safety and she'll be eating out of your hand. (usually)

That's exactly where I am aiming for Cat. To be the safe option.

Now, having said that, do I instigate contact or leave it up to her based on her comments that 'friends' don't need to talk every day?

One other thing that I just remembered. The other day, during our talk, I asked her if she was staying where she was when her lease expires in 3 weeks. She told me that from then on it was only a month at a time for renewal and that she would be just taking it one month at a time in case she wanted to go somewhere else.

I have 3 ways of seeing this..

1. she maybe thinking of moving in with OM in the future if that is still ongoing (I know forget about him, but it IS an option)

2. She doesn't want to make a long term decision in case she feels like she wants to come home.

3. She isn't settled there completely and may decide to move for her own sake in the future.

Any thoughts about that?

Just journalling..

Im now at the end of day 5 of no contact whatsoever.

I will not break the NC for my own peace of mind.

W appears to be showing her TRUE colours now, the "let's stay friends and go out and meet up and things" seems to have been for her benefit only. If she was really THAT bothered about staying friends, I would have thought that she would have made SOME effort to make contact by now.

If she doesn't contact me before I go bankrupt, she will be chased for our joint debt. I have offered to take on half of it to be fair to her, but we need to talk to the bank together. Can't do that if she won't talk to me!

I'm getting further away from her by the day. I am now revisiting our 24 years together with properly focussed glasses and not "rose tinted" ones.

I know that I cannot be the "safe" option or Plan A in this situation, but last time we spoke she was under no illusions that I was standing for our M and that I didn't want D.

Nothing more I can do really, just wait it out and see what happens. 5 days is NOTHING really, but feels a lot longer.

Losing the will to try.

What a turn round.

W called me, from work (she never did before, she is a nurse) called to 'catch up and see if I was OK'.

Conversation went well, told her I was great and that things were going well at work. I asked her about her work, her new hobby of walking. I also asked about her mother who I am still in close touch with. She said that MIL told her I had rung (that was last Tuesday).

Told her that I had spoken to the mortgage company and that I would hopefully be able to stay in the MH until it sold. That I has also sorted out a couple of other financial things. (one of her needs is financial security and she has said that I earned enough, but was never organised) She laughed and said "not before time eh!" I told her that I had to get it done now that I was on my own. Small deposit made there.

She also asked if I was still going to the gym, I said yep. she said that was good (my weight was also a problem).

All in all it was a good conversation and I think that she is more interested in what I am doing than she would like to admit.

Sunday is our first 'mutual' day off for a week. I am wondering if W will call and suggest getting together.

I have plans either way though. Plenty of things to do.

Will be interesting to see how long she takes to call again.

Just been to see MIL. Made it today instead of tomorrow as planned as she had fallen. She's OK but a but sore. I took her some ciggies as she had run out and couldn't get to the shop.

It was nice to see her again, I have actually been closer to her than W has for the last 8 years.

We talked about W briefly, I told her that all I wanted was for W to be happy and if that meant being apart then so be it. She said "but IS she happy without you?, I don't think she is" "She only ever told me what a wonderful man you were, she NEVER ran you down, just said there was 'nothing' there at the moment and I said I know how good he is, I've known him as long as you"

My goodness, the Silvagod appreciation society!

She also told me I looked REALLY well and better than I had for a long time.

We chatted for about 2 hours, then I left.

This will get back to W pretty quickly as W will call her tomorrow (maybe visit her herself) to see how she is, and MIL will tell her that I called. I won't mention it to W at all as it wasn't about or for her, it was me checking on my very dear 2nd Mum.
_________________________

Silva,

I think you are learning something. You can help people but you cannot make them do anything. My recommendation is just keep on working on YOUR life. Keep going by to see your MIL, she sounds like a fine lady. One can never have too many "fine ladies" in ones life you know.

As for your W, leave her alone. It is what she wants, it is what she has requested, and whether or not it is what she needs is really not something you can address.

Time for you to work on you, get your life in order and prepare to face the future with as many tools and in as good a health as you can.

God Bless,

JL