Dr. Harley: "Plan A should never involve sacrifice. In other words, you can be as encouraging as possible about your willingness to meet his emotional needs without actually doing it, and still be in Plan A. And you can defend yourself from your husband's abuse (calling the police or calling his lover's husband) and still be in Plan A. The point of plan A is that you are making an effort to do your part to make your marriage successful, but from my perspective, it should never involve personal sacrifice."

I think the Harley plans work fine. But it requires that the WS had been a relatively emotionally mature person and the A reflects a regression of sorts.

I personally think this is the point that at times gets missed in the advice here. Some level of emotional maturity on the part of both spouses is a lynchpin in virtually any relationship advice. If you aren't dealing with someone with some level of emotional maturity, then nothing is going to "work."

Plan A, Plan B, Plan D, Plan U, aren't solutions, they are tests. Tests that determine the emotional maturity of your spouse.

The key here is RESPECT ... without it on some fundemental level ... I don't think you can have any type of true recovery and in most of these situations the WW has stripped the BH of his self-respect, which makes it very easy for the WW to lose all remaining RESPECT for her BH.

I have come to peace, but I have not forgiven as I have never received a request for forgiveness.

Janis Abran Sprin, in her book "How Can I Forgive You" makes a distinction between acceptance, which allows one to move on when a person never apologizes and forgiveness, which she feels require active participation from the transgressor.

I agree about the emotional maturity. I'd add, though, that the crisis caused by the affair can really show both spouses that they are deeper than they thought. Also, because people are not static, but capable of growth, the affair crisis can be a catalyst to develop that maturity that was lacking before.

The BW or BH who is able to Plan A is going to find deeper reserves of strength than they ever thought possible as they go through this. A WW who is able to break free of the affair and return to the marriage will be demonstrating more emotional maturity that either party would have thought them capable of.

Well EE, the fastest horse doesn't always win, but it's still the best bet...

Mrs. W

Yes, I worded my initial comments poorly. I took exception with Exposure ALWAYS works. I wrongly said exposure doesn't work. It works in some cases.

But not all cases. In many cases, it drives the lovers closer together, like martyrs with a common oppressor. (At least in their wayward minds!)

Yes, I worded my initial comments poorly. I took exception with Exposure ALWAYS works. I wrongly said exposure doesn't work. It works in some cases.

But not all cases. In many cases, it drives the lovers closer together, like martyrs with a common oppressor. (At least in their wayward minds!)

MyRev...

I keep hearing you talk over and over about "self-respect" and being "stripped" of it by someone else...That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me because self-respect is something that comes from within...it just IS...You either do respect yourself or you do not...No one has the power to take that away from you without your consent...Your self-respect is YOURS and is up to YOU...

See the thing is, on the day a BS made his or her vows, (s)he put that power into the hands of his/her spouse. How? Because (s)he believed the WS was telling the truth, and lived life under the assumption that the WS was honouring those vows. So yes, among the many wounds suffered by the BS, self-respect is right up there. Regaining it after D-day is a painful process that doesn't happen immediately, even if the WS is instantly remorseful and returns immediately as a poster-child FWS.

Why do I keep doing this?

Rhetorical question, I have an answer already...

Those with the biggest problem with Plan A can't describe it and have probably never done it.

Plan A is NOT paying for a WW to continue her affair. It is NOT placating her so that she won't run off with OM. I t is NOT rolling over and taking it while she boinks OM and you watch the kids so she doesn't have to worry about them.

Plan B is NOT letting her know that when she's had her fun that you will accept her back and everything will go back to the way it was. Plan B is NOT about reducing yourself to the level of acceptance of being a cuckold.

Plan A CAN'T be forever because it is IMPOSSIBLE to do it for very long. The 6 months for men and 3 for women is Dr Harley's recommendation for the MAXIMUM time you should attempt it because if you do it and do it RIGHT it will KILL YOU or at least make you wish you were dead.

Plan A is GIVING while NOT getting anything in return. If you can't do it, then don't bother to try.

Plan B is most likely to end in divorce. It is more likely to end in divorce than Plan A followed by Plan B and is almost as likely to end in divorce as going right for Plan D. Once you are not together you have NO chance to make love bank deposits and no chance to show that you can meet ENs or any of the other things that Plan A is supposed to be for. Plan B is the last hope for those who still hold onto it.

Another comment here that I feel I should address is the question about who says the first marriage is the right one...

If a marriage ends because of abuse, cheating by your spouse or abuse of the children or abandonment, then a second chance is valid, acceptable and a great idea.

If the second chance at love is with someone whom you met while married and began an affair with no matter what you thought of your spouse at the time then it is NOT right and even if your marriage ends because of other reasons your affair partner canNOT be "the right one" especially if he/she was married during your affair as well.

Happiness cannot trump the fact that adultery is wrong. Feelings cannot override the fact that it is wrong to break a vow and the fact that you fell in love with someone else while married is not the only condition by which to judge right and really should not even be considered as one standard at all, since falling in love is a CHOICE and NOT something that happens to you without any decision from you. You can say "I didn't mean for it to happen" all you want but the time to decide to prevent it from happening was when you made the choice to allow the conditions that let it happen. THAT is when you choose remain faithful, not when your underwear is damp.

raozone, you are right that Plan B is not about the WS but about the BS. But really, so is Plan A. Plan A is supposed to remove the obstacles that might prevent the WS from choosing to remain with the BS instead of running off with the AP. It is a way for the BS to show the WS that he/she is willing to meet the ENs that AP is meeting and at the same time give the BS leverage against the affair through the stick side of the equation including exposure. It is NOT being nice to a tramp. It is NOT doing laundry for a philandering womanizer. It IS stepping up and making sure that everything on your side of the fence is in order and YOU are not the reason the marriage is failing.

If you do Plan A, not rollover and let WS walk all over you but a real Plan A that does NOT tolerate disrespect because in Plan A you stand up for yourself without the WS being your only source of self and actually make yourself a better person.

The problem I have with the idea that you have to choose between standing up for yourself and Plan A is that Plan A is about standing up for yourself. It is about not taking the status quo from your lying cheating spouse and about making yourself the best person you can be in spite of, not because of you spouse. It makes you strong in and of yourself and removes your spouse as your source of fulfillment and life.

Not every marriage should be saved and some will never get over the pain of betrayal and for them there is Plan D and Plan FU. Those are perfectly valid PLANS. Most people are not advised to choose one of those when they get here because this is called Marriage BUILDERS and not Marriage Enders. (there may be one of those BTW and I have no affiliation with that group or any other group wishing to advertise on this site) By the fact that people come here to ask what they should do leads most of us to believe that they have decided to try to save the marriage.

Now the ones for whom Plan A beats them down, makes them feel worthless and diminishes their own ability to function in life without being a doormat: If you are not getting stronger as you do Plan A, you aren't doing Plan A.
If your confidence is failing during Plan A because you are unsure of what you are doing being the right thing to do then you are NOT doing Plan A.
If you are not doing Plan A with the GOAL of a fully recovered marriage in mind, you are NOT doing Plan A.
If you are not doing Plan A with an already determined end point in mind beyond which you will walk away knowing you did your best, you are NOT in Plan A.
If you are not doing Plan A with the idea of ending up with the marriage YOU want then you are not doing Plan A.
If you are babysitting so your WW can go boink OM and saying you are connecting with the kids for the first time in your life, you are NOT in Plan A.

You win at Plan A by being BETTER not by being easier to push around.

And that applies to those who do NOT save their marriage as well as those that do.

If you feel like you are being a doormat during Plan A, you might be doing everything right.

If people are telling you you are being a doormat you aren't doing it right.

Plan A and Plan B do NOT force anyone to come back to the marriage that doesn't want to come back to the marriage.

In order to recover you do have to be able to accept that it happened. In order to recover you do have to forgive and move forward.

You do have to have a remorseful FORMER wayward spouse who has earned the stripes of the F by their actions and not by their inaction (No longer boinking OM every Thursday, Saturday and every other Monday nights does NOT make one a FORMER WW any more than waking up sober one morning makes one a FORMER alcoholic)


You do NOT have to forget all about it.

You do NOT have to settle for what you get.

If you settle for being second best, that is YOUR choice.

I have to go to work. No time to proof-read or edit...

Mark

Now the ones for whom Plan A beats them down, makes them feel worthless and diminishes their own ability to function in life without being a doormat: If you are not getting stronger as you do Plan A, you aren't doing Plan A.

If your confidence is failing during Plan A because you are unsure of what you are doing being the right thing to do then you are NOT doing Plan A.

If you are not doing Plan A with the GOAL of a fully recovered marriage in mind, you are NOT doing Plan A.

If you are not doing Plan A with an already determined end point in mind beyond which you will walk away knowing you did your best, you are NOT in Plan A.

If you are not doing Plan A with the idea of ending up with the marriage YOU want then you are not doing Plan A.
If you are babysitting so your WW can go boink OM and saying you are connecting with the kids for the first time in your life, you are NOT in Plan A.

You win at Plan A by being BETTER not by being easier to push around.

And that applies to those who do NOT save their marriage as well as those that do.

If you feel like you are being a doormat during Plan A, you might be doing everything right.

First you say you can't do plan A forever, then you say if you are getting beaten down by plan A, then you are not doing plan A. Well, frankly that appears to be a contradiction. If it didn't beat you down,sapping your strength to do plan A, then you COULD do it forever. So I tend to disagree with what appears to be contradictory.

Actually they may be doing an excellent plan A, but are depressed because the results don't follow the effort expended. As you say, they may "FEEL" like a doormat and eventually develop resentment because they are eliminating LB's attempting to meet needs (often needs the WS refuses to allow the BS to meet.)

Failure tends to weaken folks. Even scripture warns about this:

Proverbs 13:12 Hope deferred makes the heart sick, But desire fulfilled is a tree of life.

The failure of plan A to bring a WW back can make the heart and mind of the BH sick. So I disagree with the notion that if you are being beaten down by plan A, you are not doing it right. If you are doing it and your spouse doesn't end the affair, I think ones heart will grow sick.

Again, I disagree. If there are no results, confidence is shaken. One begins to question if they are really meeting EN's or understand what LB's are present. One is told to eliminate LB's but if the WS or someone like Steve Harley or others can't identify the WW's EN's or the BH's LB's then their plan A is likely fruitless.

Since most WW's have already closed the door to their BH's, they respond like mine did, which was to not even answer the LB questionare. Steve Harley had me fill it out how I THOUGHT she would answer, but that's not nearly as good as if she were to provide the feedback as to what was most destructive to her love bank, and what makes the most effective deposits.

So I disagree that uncertainty means you are not doing plan A. You can be doing plan A to the best of your ability and knowledge, but still not be hitting the right things. After all, if we knew the right things to do instinctively, then there would be no need for Dr H, or Steve H, or Jennifer, etc.

Lacking specific feedback from the WW, plan A is only an educated guess.

I don't know about this one. There comes a point where resentment at the lack of fruits for one's efforts will lead to destructive LB behavior. That combined with recognizing that one cannot plan A forever, it makes sense that one has a decision point mapped out. A point where the BH looks at what is going on and decides if plan A continues and sets another decision point, or that plan B begins and he tells her he loves her, but will not compete with the OM, so she is on her own for getting ALL her needs met, contact me via XYZ only regarding the children, etc.

Here is where I think it's difficult to put your eggs in one basket. If you believe the only possible outcome is a saved marriage, a better marriage, etc, I think that leaves you ripe for some serious disappointment, and that could be some disappointment that threatens your very life.

I think the more healthy goal of plan is to eliminate your LB's try to meet EN's and be the best H you can be. If you wife wishes to return, it's largely on your terms, but she is allowed to bring concerns about how the marriage goes into the discussion.

That can happen without it turning into a blameshift, such as I wouldn't have had the affair if you would have only...

The person who says that is still wayward and it may be safer for them to stay away a bit longer.

But if they say I was looking for XYZ and it was wrong for me to look for that outside the marriage, so I want that as we move forward, I believe that's not unreasonable.

I hear many say that the WW has to come back on the BH's terms. Well, she's a person too and she likely has legitimate complaints about how the marriage was going prior to her affair. So who is going to come back to a situation where she still has little or no voice?

But those requests have to be thoughtful requests, not demands or blame-shifts.

Just my rambling. Perhaps I'm missing something, or perhaps it's just a difference in perspective. My marriage was NOT saved by MB. I did plan A, I did exposure. I don't think I ever really did plan B. I told her I loved her, would not share, and only discussed the child from then on. I didn't do the intermediary because we spoke so seldom it didn't make sense to put someone in the middle and no one really wanted to be there, so what did it matter at that point.

MyRev...

I keep hearing you talk over and over about "self-respect" and being "stripped" of it by someone else...That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me because self-respect is something that comes from within...it just IS...You either do respect yourself or you do not...No one has the power to take that away from you without your consent...Your self-respect is YOURS and is up to YOU...In the same way that Mr. W had no power to make me respect myself, which I obviously did not as I chose to have an affair...I now have self-respect because of ME, and I know you won't relish hearing this, but mine comes from God...Hearing and finally truly BELIEVING that God meant what He said...That I (and everyone else) is "fearfully and wonderfully made"...

But, as Just Learning advised me in my weak times, there is time for throwing the bum out. And there is no reason to rush that. Not before certain things have been done and the BH is absolutely sure he wants out!

Mrs. W,

I really don't want this to turn into another argument over semantics, but your response doesn't make any logical sense. In effect you imply that MY self-respect has to come from within, but YOUR self-respect is a gift from God ... a rather condescending double standard to say the least.

Also, I don't think you understand BH's at all if you don't see how a WW's A wouldn't adversely affect a BH's self respect. I can assure you that Mr. W had feelings of inadequacy, which will put quite a dent in your self-respect, when he learned that you were getting your physical needs met elsewhere ... in effect, you had rejected him for a previous lover ... he didn't even get the benefit of being able to tell himself that you just got carried away in the passion of a NEW relationship.

Now I've read quite a bit of Mr. W's posts and he is definately a powerful and confident personality and likely regrouped rather quickly from the wound that was inflicted upon him, but it is fog-like of you to suggest that your actions didn't harm his self-respect in some form for some period of time.

However, Mr. W is not the type of BH that I was describing. I was describing the type of BH whose WW has been systematically emasculating the BH and then using that as an excuse to have an A with OM. That is the type of BH that seems to be coming to MB in greater numbers ... the weak minded, indecisive, fearful, whipped BH who simply can't or won't stand up to his WW.

These cases are basically hopeless for a successful R and I feel that MB is doing these BH's a disservice by pushing a BH to attempt R ("At least you'll know that you've done everything possible to save your M") rather than advise him to use his WW's fantasy state to negotiate a better custody and property settlement agreement for himself and his children.

If you will re-read pom's posts on this thread, he has done a much better job of describing this than I, as I recognize that I have a more agressive writing style that puts some people on the defensive. I also thought Enlightened Ex did a great job of bringing some much needed clarity and perspective to the discussion.

Self-esteem vs. Self-respect
Discusses the differences between self-respect and self-esteem. Explanation on esteeming anything and respecting something; Test of self-respect; Advantages of self-respect.

By: Ellen J. Langer


Our culture is concerned with matters of self-esteem. Self-respect, on the other hand, may hold the key to achieving the peace of mind we seek. The two concepts seem very similar but the differences between them are crucial.

To esteem anything is to evaluate it positively and hold it in high regard, but evaluation gets us into trouble because while we sometimes win, we also sometimes lose. To respect something, on the other hand, is to accept it.

I enjoy singing and do so quite frequently. As those within earshot will attest, I'm not very good but I love to sing anyway. During summer parties I frequently sing solo and play the part of the "moving ball," trying to stay just ahead of the music to provide the words for those who don't know the song. I am not saddened by my lack of talent. I accept the way I sing. Because of this acceptance, I am able to sing without being evaluative of myself or concerned with what others think.

The word acceptance suggests to some readers that our culture does indeed deal with this idea of self-respect; after all, don't we have the concept that it is important to accept our limitations? Aren't many of us encouraged "to change the things we can change, accept the things we cannot change and know the difference between the two?" I believe I could learn to sing better, so my acceptance is not based on my limitations. Nor is it based on resignation, since I am not resigned to the belief that I cannot sing well and am not committed to any particular belief about my voice in the future.

The person with self-respect simply likes her- or himself. This self-respect is not contingent on success because there are always failures to contend with. Neither is it a result of comparing ourselves with others because there is always someone better. These are tactics usually employed to increase self-esteem. Self-respect, however, is a given. We simply like ourselves or we don't. With self-respect, we like ourselves because of who we are and not because of what we can or cannot do.

Consider an interesting test of self-respect. If someone compliments us, what is our reaction? If we are very pleased, it would suggest a certain amount of uncertainty about our skill. Imagine that somebody whose opinion we respect told us that we were great at spelling three-letter words, or that our pronunciation of vowels was wonderful. Chances are we would not be moved. We know we can do it in the first case, and we don't care in the second. Because we were not evaluating ourselves, the compliment was unimportant. The more instances in which we don't "take the compliment," the less vulnerable we become to evaluation and insult.

My recent research, with Judith White and Johnny Walsch at Harvard University, points to the advantages of self-respect. Compared to those with high self-esteem who are still caught in an evaluative framework, those with self-respect are less prone to blame, guilt, regret, lies, secrets and stress.

Many people worry whether there is life after death. Just think about it: If we gave up self-evaluation, we could have more life before death.

Adapted by Ph.D.

Ellen J. Langer, a professor of psychology at Harvard University, is author of The Power of Mindful Learning (Perseus, 1997) and Mindfulness (Perseus, 1989).


Psychology Today Magazine, Nov/Dec 99
Last Reviewed 18 Aug 2005
Article ID: 369