I don't blame you for being angry. I'd be throwing up, myself. There is only so much a person can take before they reach their breaking point.

On the bright side, he is being totally honest and there are many here who pray for that every day. On the other hand, this isn't an "oops" that you guys need to work through. It's a whole new way of living that he needs to learn, and he's an old dog.

Don't try to decide today if you will work things out or call it quits. They say you should always wait at least six months after a major emotional trauma before making any big decisions. So take your time. Focus on yourself today. Go visit a friend, or hang out at your favorite art gallery or book store. Just take care of you and indulge in some luxurious creature comforts. Maybe a bubble bath with your favorite music, whatever you think will soothe you.

GM is trying, that's for sure. Whether or not he can sustain his changes remains to be seen, and it will take years to know for sure. Remember that you get to decide whether or not you want him in your life. You just don't have to decide today.

Thanks johnstwin.

What did he say about the MB weekend? I guess I should go look.

I really am at a loss here. On the one hand I pulled it out of him because I had to know it all before I would agree to any real work on this, I had to have all the lies put to rest. Since I did that I have to feel like he is still trying. It can't be easy to tell someone that you have cheated on them over and over every single year that you have been married. On the other hand, we spent thousands of dollars on therapy at a major institute (so you know this was not just an IRL councilor) just to get things going well and he cheated through them all and never ever made an attempt to change his behavior after they all told him that he had to work on this, I could not shoulder the weight of the entire thing myself and make it change.

I am glad you are all here even though I wish none of us was going through this.

turtlehead you have no idea how you just soothed my soul enough to get through this day. I was trying to decide my entire future while mourning my past all at once and I was driving myself crazy. I feel much calmer now although it is certainly letting the pain come through. The calmness is welcome. I do have time.

I am not sure I would say he is trying. He is trying to save his butt by saving little bits thinking that will make it better if I don't find out. I really has nothing to do with me, he is trying to save himself. Can't say that I blame him for that. If I had a story like that I would never want to tell it.

I am sorry to be so needy here. I feel like a baby and I am feeling sorry for myself, very sorry. I will get better and I will get through it and I will straighten up at some point and act like a "big girl". I am WOMAN!

Have you read People Of The Lie , by M. Scott Peck?
If you have not read it - get it from your library or bookseller.

I am going to veer from what other MB vets are telling you.

I think that the MB weekend is not going to help much.

Learning about marriage skills will not help your husband - his general knowledge is already vast. He's smart. He's a quick study. He's chosen a lifestyle. His lifestyle is "A person of the lie".

Years ago we tried to help another physician/wife marriage. They went to a MB weekend. The husband went along with everything the wife asked him to do. He cried crocodile tears by the bucket. Heck, they EVEN went ON the Dr Phil show !!!!!!!!!!!!
Ed & Kandi on Dr PHIL



His lifestyle never changed.
They divorced.
He married the OW (they already had a baby together while he was still married).
He was a major liar/manipulator who was most comfortable when he was master of 2 (or more) women.

I fear for you. I really do.

I agree with you completely. He's currently into saving the marriage to make himself look/feel better. I think it's still about his ego. He says all the right things but I'm concerned that he's parroting, not really feeling it. He's picked it all up too quickly and he's too eager. He's not struggling.

A person who is taking a good hard look in the mirror and not liking what they see struggles a lot. They're remorseful, and they accept the blame - which GM says he's doing - but they do it in little bits and pieces. Every step forward requires a lot of effort. GM is doing it in huge leaps.

I fear I'm being inarticulate. How can I say this?

Personal growth is usually slow and painful. People usually are defensive and possessive of their flaws, and resist changing. I find it hard to believe that someone with such a history of deceit and manipulation can make such strides as GM seems to be making.

On the other hand, he's being honest. He never was before. He's agreed to the polygraph and many more actions. If he were completely insincere, he'd not agree to those. He'd have excuses. He appears to be walking the walk in addition to talking the talk. *Appears* to be.

Take care of yourself, watch him with open eyes, and let him PROVE himself to you. Make him EARN his way into the marriage. Make him EARN your trust. I wouldn't slam the door on him yet, but I would keep a watchful eye.

Pep's post is good and relevant. In that sitch, the WH kept wavering and going back and forth between his wife and OW. He'd try to commit but then fail, over and over and over. It will be very telling whether GM sticks to NC with OW, or if he finds some new OW.

You're obviously quite bright and I believe you know all of this already. Sometimes it helps just to hear it echoed back.

SSS,

I would not counsel kicking him out over this revelation or any other. He is being honest, maybe for the first time in decades.

You should not be conditioning him ala Pavlov that honesty begets disaster.

And, of course, throwing him out gives him one tempting option, right?

Anyway, ask the guy who did all all world freak out after
d-day....better to get it out now and I appreciate the honesty. Your WS is putting his heart at your feet and trying for a new beginning.

Look, you can always walk away later. I would (I am) giving this a chance to see where it goes.

PS: if you want to keep cauterizing the wound, I'll also bet he has a rollicking porn addiction to go along with the escort jones.

It bears repeating.

I'm not joining the "at least he's being honest" group.
I'm standing with the "tip of the iceberg" group.

There's more here.
If you ever do get him to sit for a polygraph - ask him every possible question under the sun, not just questions about sex or adultery with women:

drugs
alcohol
porn
bondage
domination
underage
men
pregnancy
money
gambling
theft
embezzlement

When you are dealing with A PERSON OF THE LIE, the lies are rarely confined to one aspect of their life - not just sex and adultery - but other nefarious acts as well.

This brings to mind The Parable of the Snake:

Once upon a time there was a serpent who was badly injured in a fight with another animal. It managed to slither away to safety but would have surely died if a benevolent man had not seen it suffering by the side of the road. The goodly man carefully wrapped the snake up and took it to his house, where he bestowed the kindest and gentlest care on the snake until it was healed and could return to the wild. Just as the man was releasing the serpent back into the grass, the ungrateful snake turned and bit him on the hand.



"What did you do that for?" cried the man, who knew that the bite of this particular snake was usually fatal. "Didn't I take care of you when no one else would?"



The snake shrugged (no small feat for a snake!) and replied to the benevolent--and now doomed-- man, "What did you expect? You knew I was a snake when you picked me up."

"I love my wife" ... what does this mean?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

LOVE has three key components:

Passion underlies physical desire, sexual behavior, and arousal. This is the physical side.

Intimacy is the emotional aspect: closeness, connectedness, and warmth of friendship.

Commitment is the decision-making part "CHOICE" of love; are couples willing to work it out?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Which of these three love components is your Person of the Lie capable of?

Which of these three love components has been missing from your marriage? For how long?

Which of these three love components has ALWAYS been absent from your marriage?

Pep: there's a song that tells that story as well. I'm a goof but I love that song (I've mentioned it a few times). I also love the symbolism.

Keep this in mind when you are reading M. Scott Peck's book.
The most important thing to The People Of The Lie is:



The least important thing to The People Of The Lie is:



Your WH called OW a dirtbag. Why?


Beware the snake!

What's the title/artist?

Can I be on the fence?
I don't like either side right now.
Maybe "Guardedly hopeful and skeptical"

LOL

You're so cute!

Have you read Dr Peck's book?

No but it sounds VERY intriguing and like a real match for GM, from what has been portrayed on these boards.

Can a lying person, like the one discussed in the book, change?
Is it a FOO issue?
A disorder?
A coping mechanism from childhood?
Can a therapist skilled in this behavior see through it?

I'm off to Google, it does sound uber-relevant.


SSS, when you guys were in therapy before, did your WH's lying habits come up as a topic of discussion? If so, what was said and how did that go?

The book is about evil.
Spiritual evil.
Sounds like a book most of us avoid reading!

Added:

"Evil is the abuse of power imposed to preserve one person's ego at the expense of another."

amazon.com has, not surprisingly, a ton of reviews on this book.

"Ever been relentlessly lied to - or about - by someone? Ever been stunned to realize that someone in your life somehow behaves as though he's the center of the universe and everything and everyone else is somehow LESS? Ever come face to face with virulent narcissism? This book will help you understand. But beware: such knowledge comes at a cost. Gone forever will be any vestage of naiveté."

yup!

OK, I will try to answer most of this in this one post. I was doing chores. After this I am going to bed with my head under the covers for a while.

First off...he is a mess. I thought I was going to have to take him into a facility this morning. Granted, he should be a mess but this is WH and I have seen this before. He does not handle situations he can't control very well, that is my job. He is being very nice and kind. He will be sleeping in another bedroom because I need to sleep and the overwhelming urge to smack him will prevent that. semi joke

We have our first phone consultation tomorrow morning. I think this is going to be very interesting.

I did ask again about many other things with the threat (one I will carry out) of the polygraph. He did have a drug problem long ago (never told the therapist). I did find some porn. Not a lot but I know what he is mainly interested in now, well I did before but this cinched it. He showed it to me himself. No money or gambling problems. All the hookers were old enough to not be children. No men. Etc....I asked a bunch. Nothing. His cues for lying are still there except it does not seem as strong as it was but I am still getting, "As far as I can remember that is all". The big "Oh yes, one more thing" is coming I am certain of it.

Because he is actually trying to be honest for once in his long, lying life I have let him come home. We will have our phone conference in the morning and I will go from there.

OOps! Here it comes. Hookers at least once a month. FOR 26 years, well 20 years until he made one his girlfriend. Oh God I hurt. There is more he us just "suppressing it". I am outta here for a while. I do not think I can do this.