Oh boy, round two. She's still expecting to see her kids here at the house. I made it very clear that that's not OK. I told her she can take them to her mother's house and I will require confirmation that she's there, or she can take them to dinner or something. I told her that I will need to approve anybody she brings into their life if she decides to to that. I truly believe she hasn't thought this all through. She really wants her cake! I run the risk of bringing out the mama bear any second here, but I'll just tell her that I'm not afraid, I'm just looking out for myself and my children. She might have to start looking out for her children too.

There would be no standing for a custody battle with the kids, so in the end, I can't really do anything there. I don't want to either because it's in our children's best interest to have their parents in their lives. The courts will want us to have it all worked out, and neither of us fits the 'unfit' definition by the courts. I'm just trying to express to her that until she's established herself as separate from her marriage, I'm looking out for the children. Maybe I'm backing her into a corner, but I think it's more just a does of reality.

These would all be spelled out in a legal separation I think. That may be the next step.

Zen, have you told her she can't visit the kids in the house? Bring me up to speed, would you? Has she moved out? Where is she staying?

Love the new name, btw! Steve McGhandi!

I'm not sure what you mean here. Do you mean that WW is not to see them at their place of residence or at her place of residence.

Plan A is about exposure and meeting WW needs that excludes OM.

Yeah, I'm mixed up too.

I guess it was suggested that she not visit the kids in your home?

I'm telling her that she can't have me, the kide, the house and the lover. She can go have her new life, and start looking out for her kids in that context, or she can stay and work on her marriage. While the affair on, she can't be in this house with me and the kids.

I know I can't FORCE her out of the house, but I'm not going to just stand there and watch!

I'll tell her that I'm only looking out for myself and the kids if she's out of the picture.

If she goes and gets her own place and wants to leave the marriage, then we'll discuss the terms of the kids' living situation.

I can't really get anywhere in the courts in the event of a divorce, so we'll just have to agree on custody in the end. I'm not going to use them against her anyway.

The Plan A aspect: I don't want you to stay because I've backed you into a corner. I want you to stay because I understand your disillusionmnet and I want us to help heal and grow together again. I'm starting to view the affair as simply a symptom of the disillusionment, and the caveman needs to go out and claim what is his, then demonstrate why he's the right caveman.

Where are you getting the idea that the courts won't help? Because you're a man?

That's not true and that is a big fallacy that keeps BHes from taking real action

I say you play Mr. Nice Guy with her, make her think she'll get exactly what she wants when she willingly moves out, and THEN, after she does, you file for abandonment and sole physical and legal custody with restrictions that OM not be allowed to be around the children.

You offer her supervised visitation only. THIS is playing hardball and THIS, ironically enough, is the dose of reality that WWes need to get for the fog to have any kind of chance of lifting.

The courts respond to those who file first and are prepared. Sure, you may, in the long run have a 50/50 type arrangement which you hammer out with her, but you must file first, file for abandonment, and go for it all.

And this isn't using the kids as weapons. It's protecting them from an insane person.

I've fought the fight and got time with my kids, but I did it all backwards, waiting to file and thinking the courts were biased against me. That's not true, even in California.

File first and play hardball.

Let her move out to her own place and file on the ground of abandonment.

Yikes, very good progress today. Almost committed to NC - must not hang hopes...

Listen to Pom Zen.

Not letting your W see the kids at home?? Sounds odd to me.

You need to be Mr Nice Guy on the outside.....keep your plans inside.

Plan for the worst.....hope for the best.

Keep an eye on my thread as custody things are in the works now. I live in the land of Lincoln. It's a no fault state.

OK, she's staying home with me tonight, will see the kids and has agreed to no contact tonight. I wasn't really keen on doing this until I have a NC commitment and a recovery commitment, but I think I need to take it a little easy. I can't force her into this decision. I will still need to keep a high standard to end the affair, but I think I need to extend the carrot a little. Some very good reconciliatory conversation - me saying that I don't excuse the affair, but I understand why it happened. Years of me putting many things before my wife is a betrayal in itself and has caused her immense pain. Sure I thought I was doing it all for the family, but it's about EN FIRST, everything second. She did what she did to find happiness, not to hurt me. Just because I can bury my head in work for a long haul doesn't mean she doesn't deserve more fun and attention in the interim and a right to voice that need. I said we go forward with a clean slate. Tit-for-tat. I think that really got through to her.

She's pretty scared of breaking it off with the Dude. She acknowledged that they aren't soul mates, but will still hurt for him and herself. I told her I understand. i know this is going to be one of the tough parts. She was also really scared about the radical honesty... I told her that I don;t think I want to know the gory details, but I'd like her to be willing if I need it. She understood, but I think is still reluctant. I told her that I'd like to use the MB plan for recovery and she sounded receptive to it. She has read Surviving An Affair. She said she felt they over-simplified the recovery process. Yes, maybe, but there's a whole lot more material out there too.

OK, I'm open to suggestions on what's next. I don't really feel like I can force her into a decision, she's going to want to contact The Dude. I told her that it has the effect of erasing any progress we make, but that I can't make up her mind for her. She acknowledged that it's all or nothing if she commits. I'm sure we've got some bumpy times ahead.

here is my advice -

this is a delicate situation when you are starting to get some bite and there is hope of a R. She is high on the fence and balancing delicately.

Get her to agree to a phone consultation with Harleys. You dont need a counselor at this point - you DO need a marriage coach to pull this through.

Its not simple program and the road is narrow.

Another thing to remember Zen.

This forum is for YOU rite now!

Keep the ball rolling on the legal front. I've seen waywards on these boards appear receptive and then go right back to their wayward ways.

But you have an opening to hopefully build on. It also sounds like you are a thinking BH, which is great. Your McQueen/Ghandi thing is great.

Keep following that. But remember that at a time of peace you prepare for war.

Tell her about MB, but not the discussion forum. Keep that to yourself. She could attempt to use the posts against you later in court (trust me, I fought that battle).

Just keep one eye open and don't stop snooping.

Remember that the addiction is strong.

Man oh man what a night. We stayed up until about 2:00 talking. Just cuddled up with the kids until their bedtime and it was beautiful to see her soaking them in.

Then a glass of wine and light conversation. It was really nice, while occasionally diving into some very deep water. It got more serious as the night went on, but we kept managing to bring it back to a lighter note. This is the most talking she has done by far in this crisis. I've finally gotten over my bewilderment and disbelief about her disillusionment with the marriage. She said she was using the affair to end the marriage. Ugh. She is pretty damn disillusioned. She acknowledged that this guy is not her type and she just found someone very different from me to make it easier on herself. She still has feelings for me, and commented several times that I am looking good, so at least there's that. Buuuut, people say that about their ex too! We talked about our bottom line coping skills - Mine is to tow the line, hers is to run. Talked a lot about her being an attractive girl and zillions of men hitting on her at bars. She stated that she's always been very clear about her boundaries. I believe her in this, and I think that was fine as long as I was meeting her needs. We will need to have some very clear boundaries in the future. I tried to express that either of us could be with any number of people out there and it'd be another life and when things are this awful, that's awfully appealing. But this is the life we have. This is everything I've ever wanted, and it'd be just as hard with anyone else. I think the sincere apologies from me are going a really long way here. It's tough to see your own faults when you're hurting like this, but it is wonderful to express your regret and sorrow to the person you've hurt, and to see them start to accept it. This is how real forgiveness starts. Her disillusionment with marriage in general is daunting. All I can think to do is to keep on this path and fill up her love bank until her doubts are lessened. She still seems skeptical about the self help world, and I do not have a commitment to NC or reconciliation. She's agreeing to NC while at home. Kind of half-a*sed, I know. I think you're right - keep preparing for the worst. I will keep pushing for the MB methods. That is a condition for me.

OK, progress report and advice sought: Wife spent the last two nights here, in our bed. Pleasant and some good progress with connecting and delving into some issues. She agreed not to contact the Dude while here, but has not agreed to NC. This is pushing the boundaries I set out and making me uncomfortable but I've felt that a little leeway was OK, given her willingness to talk.

We have a date planned for this evening. She's still quite detached and out of love for me which is really hard. Trying to maintain the Steve McGandhi stoicism. I know this is the long uphill battle - demonstrating that changes are real and steadily filling her love bank.

Buuuuuuuuuut, The Dude is still not out of the picture. I'm thinking of waiting a couple more days before I press it a little. I would like to reinforce that she can't stay here while she's still involved with the guy, but the current good vibes are nice as well.

What do ya'll suggest?

Give her the weekend and Sunday night, lay it out: We cannot continue if you ever see him/contact him. You need to make a choice. Let me know when you're done with him, and I'll be willing to talk again. Otherwise, you're just letting her cake-eat. She'll never decide that way. And you'll have given her a great Plan A sendoff to remember you by.

Zen

Your post sounds like our "weekend of reconciliation". Be careful. Control your anger/emotions. Don't be clingy/needy.

I agree with Cat!

That sounds perfect. I'll come back to the No Cake-Eating talk after a pleasant weekend. Must up the McGandhi action. Be The Man.

OK, more advice sought: We've got a date set for tonight. WW just called and said she got called into work until 10:00, so we'll have to start our evening later. I have no reason to believe this is really what's going on, although it might be true. Before D-day she used her work schedule to smoke screen the affair. There has been no NC agreement, or even a reconciliation agreement yet. Do I just let it lie and keep with the pleasant weekend, or do I ask her to reassure me that this is really what's going on... I know if we're in recovery, this is exactly what I will need, but we aren't even there yet. The intent was to wait until Sunday evening to reiterate the boundaries.

Can you go to her work to surprise her with a bouquet of flowers? (or not...*sigh*)