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chrisner #2210195 02/10/09 11:36 AM
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Ah, the LOOK AT ME, Plan B approach...

I SUCKED at Plan A


Me-BS-38
Married 1997; son, 8yo
Divorced April 2009
wildhorses74 #2210198 02/10/09 11:38 AM
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Yep, what wildhorses said.

Sure, PB is supposed to be dark. But, all you folks saying she isn't dark enough, those of you who recovered, you weren't entirely dark either. And again, I'm really not sure what you would have her do differently! As in now!

Why keep beating a dead horse? The sandwich incident was a mistake, noted and addressed, why are y'all still saying that unless she does things differently her son is gonna end up in counseling for life? Isn't that harsh? Is that helpful? Is it helpful if she's already doing the best she can *now*?

Again, what precisely would you have her do differently than what she is doing right now?

If you say that she should force her kids to PB their dad, ok that's your opinion, I happen to disagree and she isn't going to do that. So noted, she has thanked folks for their input.

What else??? What specifically, that she is doing today, would you have her do differently? She cannot control her WH, she can only control herself.

And... in all the history of MB... she has the absolute most experienced team of IMs and advisors working with her. Are all y'all saying you don't trust Neak, Pep, and Kimmy (Dealan-de) to judge whether or not she's as dark as she should be? Plus SB is on board with the one planned break of the NC, and with the 2nd PBL.

Is it that y'all are disagreeing with the 1 planned break of NC, when he fixed her sink?

Is it that y'all are disagreeing with the 2nd PBL?

Again, and I asked this on her thread and I thought it was asked and answered... WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU THINK SHE SHOULD DO DIFFERENTLY?

Everyone's input is valuable. But some things she isn't willing to do (kids go NC) and some things she's admitted and corrected (sandwiches) and some things she can't control (where he parks or takes the kids) and some things are influenced by legal considerations (getting a job, getting a legal visitation schedule).

Of all those things IMHO one might say that last category is making excuses. I don't think it's making excuses, but some folks might.

She has a reason for not getting a job. Legal counsel. She also has a reason for not getting court-ordered visitation schedules or child support. All of it is on her thread, but if that's the specific thing you disagree with, then say that.

Because all I hear is fuzzy accusations and fearmongering that if she doesn't "go darker" that her son will be emotionally scarred forever.

How do you think that makes a mom feel? A mom who can only control what *she* does, not what her WH does?

Fearmongering... that's a word I've been trying to think of for days now.

For the record - her H was NOT abusive before this happened. Not all sitches are identical.

No one attacks a BW when they are forced to see the WH during court-ordered visitation exchanges. Or Charlotte when the judge ordered her to spend time with Grey on inventorying all the stuff at her house. Some of the stuff T2L is doing is to keep from having worse things happen if things become court-ordered. Right now she *doesn't* see WH during visitations, he doesn't see her... and he doesn't take his kids anywhere near Sea Hag. That would change if the courts got involved. There would be overnights at the apartment he shares with Sea Hag.

He also deposits 90% of his income into her bank account. That means Sea Hag must not get much. That's good, non? That would change if she got a job or started moving money from that account.

And she's also incorporating the example of... sorry, forgot the name of the poster and don't have time to look it up right now. The example of planting a seed in the WH's mind, that she won't just wait around forever... is that what y'all are disagreeing with? Because I know some folks disagre with that. That's fine, T2L has stated she appreciates all input, she noted and acknowledged that opinion but there were others who thought it was a good idea, and she went with what she thought would work the best in her sitch, knowing her H as she does.

That isn't her only choosing to listen to folks who are justifying her mistakes. That is her selecting one plan of several, using her best judgement. If she didn't select your plan, oh well.

For me she was too focussed on preparing for PB at the start of her PA, instead of being fully into PA. Fine, I expressed my opinion, others disagreed, I let it go.

Mimi you can tell me to get off this thread since it's your thread and it prolly sounds like I'm attacking you and cat. But I absolutely love cat and I hope the fact that I disagree with her on this one thing doesn't make her mad at me, cus I'm not mad at her. And I very much respect you Mimi and think of you as one of the wise and experienced vets around here.


me - 47 tired
H - 39 cool
married 2001
DS 8a think
DS 8b :crosseyedcrazy:
(Why is DS7b now a blockhead???)
(Ack! Now he's not even a blockhead, just a word! That's no fun!)
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I get frustrated, just as I'm sure so many did with me, when one SAYS they are doing Plan B, but then excuses abound for why it just CANNOT be done. I was one of those people, making excuses. It wasn't until I stopped that senseless behavior that I was able to let go.

Some just aren't cut out for these plans. They take discipline . I was terrible at Plan A. Just terrible. I know that about myself. But recovery, dang, that's just tough all around.

Um, excuse me, but IMO she has shown remarkable discipline and she has done about the best PA and PB of anyone here!

Sure you can find holes in her PB. You can in anyone's. Her's is as good or better than anyone else's who has recovered.

At least one of her "holes" is an intended application of SOMETHING THAT STEVE HARLEY RECOMMENDED TO SOMEONE.

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It IS difficult with children, but nowhere near impossible, and picking up the phone and reiterating your plan B letter is just both spouses getting their fix. I did it, I know.

And *where* does it say she's gonna do that?


me - 47 tired
H - 39 cool
married 2001
DS 8a think
DS 8b :crosseyedcrazy:
(Why is DS7b now a blockhead???)
(Ack! Now he's not even a blockhead, just a word! That's no fun!)
chrisner #2210212 02/10/09 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by SL
People here and just trying to give us the best TOOLS so we make the most informed choices.

SOMETIMES, they are. OTHER TIMES, they are just trying to be RIGHT. KWIM?

Originally Posted by FunnyMan
Oh come now Cowgirl. I though your Plan B was beautiful. It was all dark sort of like a big mall opening with several of those giant air raid lights moving back and forth into the sky. Oh, and fireworks too. Don’t forget the fireworks.

flirt Well, I can't really deny that. grin

I think sometimes we sabotage ourselves for a reason - because the end result from that sabotage is really what we NEED.

I have regrets, I have things I wish I would have done differently - but I don't think the outcome would have changed.

Dealing with Plan B as I did was what I NEEDED to do - FINALLY, standing up for myself against him.

Uh....I think we t/j'ed a little. Sorry!


jayne241 #2210213 02/10/09 11:44 AM
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A lot of the folks here jumping on the "let's all rip apart T2L's PB"... have y'all even been *reading* her thread??? And keeping up with it from Day One?

As in, not just now reading it and responding to something that happened a long time ago?

Cus I don't think I'm reading the same thread y'all are.


me - 47 tired
H - 39 cool
married 2001
DS 8a think
DS 8b :crosseyedcrazy:
(Why is DS7b now a blockhead???)
(Ack! Now he's not even a blockhead, just a word! That's no fun!)
jayne241 #2210231 02/10/09 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by jayne241
Yep, what wildhorses said.

Sure, PB is supposed to be dark. But, all you folks saying she isn't dark enough, those of you who recovered, you weren't entirely dark either. And again, I'm really not sure what you would have her do differently! As in now!

Why keep beating a dead horse? The sandwich incident was a mistake, noted and addressed, why are y'all still saying that unless she does things differently her son is gonna end up in counseling for life? Isn't that harsh? Is that helpful? Is it helpful if she's already doing the best she can *now*?

Again, what precisely would you have her do differently than what she is doing right now?

If you say that she should force her kids to PB their dad, ok that's your opinion, I happen to disagree and she isn't going to do that. So noted, she has thanked folks for their input.

What else??? What specifically, that she is doing today, would you have her do differently? She cannot control her WH, she can only control herself.

And... in all the history of MB... she has the absolute most experienced team of IMs and advisors working with her. Are all y'all saying you don't trust Neak, Pep, and Kimmy (Dealan-de) to judge whether or not she's as dark as she should be? Plus SB is on board with the one planned break of the NC, and with the 2nd PBL.

Is it that y'all are disagreeing with the 1 planned break of NC, when he fixed her sink?

Is it that y'all are disagreeing with the 2nd PBL?

Again, and I asked this on her thread and I thought it was asked and answered... WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU THINK SHE SHOULD DO DIFFERENTLY?

Everyone's input is valuable. But some things she isn't willing to do (kids go NC) and some things she's admitted and corrected (sandwiches) and some things she can't control (where he parks or takes the kids) and some things are influenced by legal considerations (getting a job, getting a legal visitation schedule).

Of all those things IMHO one might say that last category is making excuses. I don't think it's making excuses, but some folks might.

She has a reason for not getting a job. Legal counsel. She also has a reason for not getting court-ordered visitation schedules or child support. All of it is on her thread, but if that's the specific thing you disagree with, then say that.

Because all I hear is fuzzy accusations and fearmongering that if she doesn't "go darker" that her son will be emotionally scarred forever.

How do you think that makes a mom feel? A mom who can only control what *she* does, not what her WH does?

Fearmongering... that's a word I've been trying to think of for days now.

For the record - her H was NOT abusive before this happened. Not all sitches are identical.

No one attacks a BW when they are forced to see the WH during court-ordered visitation exchanges. Or Charlotte when the judge ordered her to spend time with Grey on inventorying all the stuff at her house. Some of the stuff T2L is doing is to keep from having worse things happen if things become court-ordered. Right now she *doesn't* see WH during visitations, he doesn't see her... and he doesn't take his kids anywhere near Sea Hag. That would change if the courts got involved. There would be overnights at the apartment he shares with Sea Hag.

He also deposits 90% of his income into her bank account. That means Sea Hag must not get much. That's good, non? That would change if she got a job or started moving money from that account.

And she's also incorporating the example of... sorry, forgot the name of the poster and don't have time to look it up right now. The example of planting a seed in the WH's mind, that she won't just wait around forever... is that what y'all are disagreeing with? Because I know some folks disagre with that. That's fine, T2L has stated she appreciates all input, she noted and acknowledged that opinion but there were others who thought it was a good idea, and she went with what she thought would work the best in her sitch, knowing her H as she does.

That isn't her only choosing to listen to folks who are justifying her mistakes. That is her selecting one plan of several, using her best judgement. If she didn't select your plan, oh well.

For me she was too focussed on preparing for PB at the start of her PA, instead of being fully into PA. Fine, I expressed my opinion, others disagreed, I let it go.

Mimi you can tell me to get off this thread since it's your thread and it prolly sounds like I'm attacking you and cat. But I absolutely love cat and I hope the fact that I disagree with her on this one thing doesn't make her mad at me, cus I'm not mad at her. And I very much respect you Mimi and think of you as one of the wise and experienced vets around here.

Good post, Jayne. I agree.

jayne241 #2210232 02/10/09 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by jayne
A lot of the folks here jumping on the "let's all rip apart T2L's PB"... have y'all even been *reading* her thread??? And keeping up with it from Day One?

I'm speaking of ALL of us, past and present, who have attempted or done a mostly stellar Plan B. My initial run at it was not so dark. After opening myself up and not feeling the need to defend my choices, I did a better Plan B.

I don't think anybody is trying to RIP T2L apart here. Seemed to me Mimi was speaking of Cat's advice and understanding of Plan B, not necessarily about T2L.

I don't think anybody needs to DEFEND T2L either.


Me-BS-38
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Divorced April 2009
wildhorses74 #2210236 02/10/09 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Foxy lady
is really what we NEED.

...or what we WANT. I know I wanted out after that last go round.


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Originally Posted by MissLucidity
I don't think anybody needs to DEFEND T2L either.

Yeah, but you know I'm gonna. wink


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Originally Posted by silentlucidity
Originally Posted by Foxy lady
is really what we NEED.

...or what we WANT. I know I wanted out after that last go round.

Yeah, that could be it, too. smile

wildhorses74 #2210247 02/10/09 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by foxy one
SOMETIMES, they are. OTHER TIMES, they are just trying to be RIGHT. KWIM?

Yeah, I get that. I remember all the back and forth on Sis' thread. I generally did not post in those times, because most of what I said would have been diluted out or not heard at all.


Me-BS-38
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Divorced April 2009
jayne241 #2210251 02/10/09 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by jayne241
Yep, what wildhorses said.

Sure, PB is supposed to be dark. But, all you folks saying she isn't dark enough, those of you who recovered, you weren't entirely dark either. And again, I'm really not sure what you would have her do differently! As in now!

Why keep beating a dead horse? The sandwich incident was a mistake, noted and addressed, why are y'all still saying that unless she does things differently her son is gonna end up in counseling for life? Isn't that harsh? Is that helpful? Is it helpful if she's already doing the best she can *now*?

Again, what precisely would you have her do differently than what she is doing right now?

If you say that she should force her kids to PB their dad, ok that's your opinion, I happen to disagree and she isn't going to do that. So noted, she has thanked folks for their input.

What else??? What specifically, that she is doing today, would you have her do differently? She cannot control her WH, she can only control herself.

And... in all the history of MB... she has the absolute most experienced team of IMs and advisors working with her. Are all y'all saying you don't trust Neak, Pep, and Kimmy (Dealan-de) to judge whether or not she's as dark as she should be? Plus SB is on board with the one planned break of the NC, and with the 2nd PBL.

Is it that y'all are disagreeing with the 1 planned break of NC, when he fixed her sink?

Is it that y'all are disagreeing with the 2nd PBL?

Again, and I asked this on her thread and I thought it was asked and answered... WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU THINK SHE SHOULD DO DIFFERENTLY?

Everyone's input is valuable. But some things she isn't willing to do (kids go NC) and some things she's admitted and corrected (sandwiches) and some things she can't control (where he parks or takes the kids) and some things are influenced by legal considerations (getting a job, getting a legal visitation schedule).

Of all those things IMHO one might say that last category is making excuses. I don't think it's making excuses, but some folks might.

She has a reason for not getting a job. Legal counsel. She also has a reason for not getting court-ordered visitation schedules or child support. All of it is on her thread, but if that's the specific thing you disagree with, then say that.

Because all I hear is fuzzy accusations and fearmongering that if she doesn't "go darker" that her son will be emotionally scarred forever.

How do you think that makes a mom feel? A mom who can only control what *she* does, not what her WH does?

Fearmongering... that's a word I've been trying to think of for days now.

For the record - her H was NOT abusive before this happened. Not all sitches are identical.

No one attacks a BW when they are forced to see the WH during court-ordered visitation exchanges. Or Charlotte when the judge ordered her to spend time with Grey on inventorying all the stuff at her house. Some of the stuff T2L is doing is to keep from having worse things happen if things become court-ordered. Right now she *doesn't* see WH during visitations, he doesn't see her... and he doesn't take his kids anywhere near Sea Hag. That would change if the courts got involved. There would be overnights at the apartment he shares with Sea Hag.

He also deposits 90% of his income into her bank account. That means Sea Hag must not get much. That's good, non? That would change if she got a job or started moving money from that account.

And she's also incorporating the example of... sorry, forgot the name of the poster and don't have time to look it up right now. The example of planting a seed in the WH's mind, that she won't just wait around forever... is that what y'all are disagreeing with? Because I know some folks disagre with that. That's fine, T2L has stated she appreciates all input, she noted and acknowledged that opinion but there were others who thought it was a good idea, and she went with what she thought would work the best in her sitch, knowing her H as she does.

That isn't her only choosing to listen to folks who are justifying her mistakes. That is her selecting one plan of several, using her best judgement. If she didn't select your plan, oh well.

For me she was too focussed on preparing for PB at the start of her PA, instead of being fully into PA. Fine, I expressed my opinion, others disagreed, I let it go.

Mimi you can tell me to get off this thread since it's your thread and it prolly sounds like I'm attacking you and cat. But I absolutely love cat and I hope the fact that I disagree with her on this one thing doesn't make her mad at me, cus I'm not mad at her. And I very much respect you Mimi and think of you as one of the wise and experienced vets around here.

Exactly. I've been keeping up with T2L's thread from day one and have communicated with her offline as well. From an up close and personal view, T2L is doing a wonderful job in following the plans.

I'm not one to pull any punches, I've been known to be very abrupt but in this case, I think some of the posts to her are out of line.

I don't understand the attacks and it really pisses me off. It's one thing to offer a differing opinion but to keep hammering it ad nausem is not being helpful anymore.

Seriously.


Widowed 11/10/12 after 35 years of marriage
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“In a sense now, I am homeless. For the home, the place of refuge, solitude, love-where my husband lived-no longer exists.” Joyce Carolyn Oates, A Widow's Story
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Oh well, they all seem to think it's all going fine. I just hope she remembers today 10 years from now when her kids are imploding.

This is the exact moment this thread went from being about one person's understanding of Plan B, to a personal attack on another poster.

Meems, love ya as always.

There are also some really good posts on this thread.


A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb



Neak's Story
Neak #2210285 02/10/09 12:27 PM
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As I said before, my only stand is from a psychological prospective. From day one of her posts, her son has been through a wringer. I may be using my brother's experience, but I do so because it is so very similar. It's a decent case study to observe the mental torture an adolescent boy goes through when his dad makes such choices. Her son couldn't bear to sleep alone for months. My brother locked himself in a bathroom when his dad left and had a mental breakdown. And several suicide attempts.

As I also said, my point is that the continued, year-plus lack of resolution one way or another, does more damage to children than any setup, no matter how loving the parents, because the children blame themselves. Always. No matter what you say to them, no matter what they say to you. My point is that if T2L goes beyond her self-imposed April 23 limit - and she has already said she probably will - those kids are stuck in an ever-longer limbo of thinking about WH, OW, and whether dad will ever choose them. And yes, that is what kids think. Not about the mom; about them.

Given the issues DS10 has already had, I get more and more concerned for him. That is all. So I said so. And I stand by it. I've spent over 30 years reading about why and how kids react when the dad leaves, so I'm not just trashing her Plan B because it brings up bad memories or whatever. Her kids - well, her son anyway - is reliving just about every case study I've ever read. And I already tried to say what the outcome was for those kids; that the longer the instability, the more likely the kid ends up a miserable adult who probably can never get better. And those are just the kids lucky enough to go to a therapist and get some form of help, probably a tip of the iceberg in real life.

T2L's daughter may escape most of the typical issues kids have in these situations, cos her dad was around in her critical years (12-16) where she developed her self-worth. That's why she can argue with her dad, and why her brother can't. His self-worth is tied into his dad's feelings for him. And a 10 year old considers a dad leaving as not loving the son. That's just human nature.

My issue was with her keeping the kids in a limbo for however much longer she keeps it going instead of making a decision and giving them a sense of security (what little they can have) by seeing her move forward. She's already waited a year. Now 3 more months. Then who knows? And in the meantime, the kids take it one day at a time, since they have no control in the situation, and go through how many more nights, weeks, months, wondering if there is anything else they can do to make their dad choose them.

catperson #2210291 02/10/09 12:33 PM
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Dr. H recommends 2 years of PB for a reason, even though it is a kind of limbo. I don't think T2L will choose to go that long, but if she did, she would still be following the advice of an expert.

Her case is not substantially different than any others on here.

Having said that, I appreciated your above post, and understand your concerns.


A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb



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Neak #2210313 02/10/09 12:47 PM
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neak, I agree about what's recommended. I guess my question is, would they still recommend it if a 10 year old boy has been distraught enough that he is unable to sleep alone? That is why I was recommending a darker Plan B, to accelerate WH's withdrawal, so that he'd be more inclined to see what he's missing. As it is, the only thing he's missing is seeing T2L. Not the family life.

catperson #2210355 02/10/09 01:28 PM
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Well, since people have asked what T2L could do differently.

Note:

A. I have 20 years experience evaluating "at risk" population. This is my honest opinion. No, I do not diagnose,I am not qualifed to do that. I just fill out forms, observe, and answer questions asked.

B. I am currently working on my PHD in Curriculum Development.

B. No, I never PB'ed. In my situation I did not need to.

A ten year old boy does not need to eat, SLEEP, play, be educated and worry about his family life all day with his mother, 24/7. He needs friends that he choses to make-- on his own (not put on a team by a coach).

He also could benefit by eating lunch with kids he likes, that like him. Kids that have worked out the social glitches, that is a huge part of "Carrer/Trade vocation skills."

We all know she loves her kids. Don't rip my face off for stating the obvious.

Her older, home schooled daughter is now looking into online courses. I'm sorry, but there is no such thing called "home school college". All 12th graders need to be taking the ACT now, she should be in an ACT prep class. Did she take the PLAN in Novermber? A lot of scholarships come from this pre test. Some people consider this a right of passage.

These kids are way too dragged into this PB, IMHO. No one wants to see the family reunited more then the kids- but they are too young to have "20 year marrital problems"

Oh what the he(). I will go ahead and say it. DD17 needs to go to campus and actually be a FROSH. Gain the Frosh "15", cramming for tests, cold pizza, no money- cute boys everywhere---Yahoo!
.....not wondering if WD can come into the garage at night.

Mind you, I do not like most home school programs. They are not held to the same standard as public school.

Beyond that, I am sympathetic to T2L's situation. She tries very, very hard to do the right thing. She listens to advice, and she asks good questions.

But I have wondered for quite a few weeks when there was going to be someone alerting her to the "other side" of this situation.

She seems obsessed with WH movements.
and this has been cheered on, myself included in part- by quite a few posters. Maybe we have done a dis service> sp?
As far as I know, PBers are supposed to be creating a better SELF- independant of WS.

The above is the biggest problem I have.

Yes, we are to be giving positive encouragement, but blindly defending someone is not helping.




Last edited by barbiecat; 02/10/09 01:45 PM.

Me; W 46
Him; H 46

2 girls
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DD16
Dated/Married total 28 years.
..I am learning and working on myself.
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Not everyone's lives run on your perception of "does not need to" and "needs to"

It's going to take some time for T2L AND her children to feel their way through this. There is no set timeline.

Judgement from the peanut gallery won't make it better or speed it up.

Encouragement, support, and guidance will help. Pointing fingers does not.

Her DD had a thread of her own and school was discussed at length. In the end, they get to decide their own lives.

ETA:

Quote
Yes, we are to be giving positive encouragement, but blindly defending someone is not helping.


So, "blind" defense is not okay, but blind accusations and judgement is?

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Originally Posted by silentlucidity
At a certain point, the delivery can cause some to turn a deaf ear to even the best advice.

A certain somebody comes to mind in the Foxy situation, who shall remain nameless

OK not nameless, it's BR!!!!


Some good advice can get lost when we are sensitive to our childrens' needs and feel like we need to DEFEND our choices.

There is no need to defend them, they are our choices. People here and just trying to give us the best TOOLS so we make the most informed choices.

The nameless poster...is that me? What did I say? dontknow


BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011




Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
wildhorses74 #2210378 02/10/09 01:58 PM
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So, "blind" defense is not okay, but blind accusations and judgement is?

That was my thought as well.


Widowed 11/10/12 after 35 years of marriage
*********************
“In a sense now, I am homeless. For the home, the place of refuge, solitude, love-where my husband lived-no longer exists.” Joyce Carolyn Oates, A Widow's Story
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