Oops.

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WD... it sounds 'to me' like you don't respect the feelings of your spouse. You find them to merely represent 'manipulation' or at attempt at him to 'cause guilt'.

If you cannot whole heartedly listen to your husband say "I feel badly when..." and take that information to heart, then I completely understand why you would think that the article is disingenuous and stilted.

Depending on the higher drive spouse's level of need and ability to accept less than they desire, and the lower drive spouse's level of aversion and ability to tolerate "unwanted" sex, there may or may not be a mutually satisfying compromise available. Using the Harley tools helps explore whether there is a mutually enthusiastic solution available. Still, not every couple is able to calmly approach the subject, which makes it difficult to apply the Rules of Protection which are a prerequisite to applying POJA. Sometimes what on the surface appears to be a "manipulative" argument is in fact necessary to "open the eyes" of a partner who is blinded by their own emotional reaction to the emotional pain felt by their spouse. This can work in either direction.

When a couple reaches the point where the higher drive spouse is horny but the lower drive spouse is exhausted, the marriage has already "lost" that round. The MB tools are designed to help the couple avoid ever reaching that point.

Hi CFIO,

Actually, you couldn't be farther from the truth.

I don't think /feelings/ can ever be manipulative, for one. And just because I disagree with the form of the article, doesn't mean I disagree with the message.

Dr. Harley says that anything you say that is heard as a Selfish Demand IS a Selfish Demand, despite intent.

There are many ways to communicate feelings, from the really harmful (like showing you're angry by breaking stuff or hitting people) through the less harmful (like showing your anger by DJ-ing - "If you X that means you don't love me!") to the actively helpful (like being Radically Honest when you're angry - 'radical' coming from the Latin word for 'root' - by telling what you feel and what you need at this moment).

Of course, a loving spouse would try to decipher the feelings and needs behind any of those expressions. However, the less someone hides the true feelings and needs behind thoughts, 'shoulds,' judgements and mind-reading, the more brain cells the spouse has left for an actual compassionate response.

We're all /capable/ of hearing "I wish we'd spend more time together because I miss you" behind "You love your job/girlfriends/hobby more than me!" but it's just plain harder, isn't it, to be empathetic right away. First, you need to smooth down those raised hackles. Or, at least, I do.

All I'm sayin' is that - since SF seems to be the 'rocket science' among ENs, by being harder to get off the ground and having the most risk for explosions - I'm not sure that this is a great article to share with a spouse who's not all hunky dory about your sex life. She (and many of the female posters here who are working their butts off while their hubbies remain blissfully ignorant about the hurt they're causing) may not have excess brain cells left to feel for you after she's done working through the button-mashing of guilt, inadequacy, insecurity and danger that surrounds the issue, exacerbated by the article that doesn't even attempt to disarm those defenses.

Of course, if you're - like Hold suggested - at wits' end, and have either already tried being Radically Honest and haven't gotten a reaction despite your spouse understanding you pretty well (LA's 'listen and repeat' exercise is great for gauging how much of your words are getting lost in translation) or are just plain ready to call it quits even though you haven't succeeded, you might try the scorched earth policy.

Even then, though, I'd still err towards MORE clarity, not less. F'rex: "If we don't have sex for months on end AND you refuse to talk to me about finding something that'll make us both happy, I feel tired, empty, hopeless and ENRAGED. I need contact, I need intimacy, I need someone to WORK WITH ME IN A RELATIONSHIP and I need CONSIDERATION FOR MY NEEDS! And if this is going to go on for much longer, I'm going to need safety like nobody's business, and I may not see any other option than leaving you to protect myself. Would you please tell me what you think about that?" Seems pretty clear AND hard-hitting to me.

This article really hits home for me. I've read similar before from some of Dr. Laura's stuff.

I find it amusing that several of the women on here find problems and flaws with it. That speaks volumes. Rather just read and understand, they look to find fault and make excuses. Whether anyone likes it or not, whether it can be classified as a DJ or not, I can tell you that the article is a very accurate portrayal of what men feel. I could have written that myself.



Ladies... please read and take this to heart. This may sound like a bunch of DJ's, but it is so what goes through a man's mind. To often, wives let everything else get in the way of a fulfilling sex life because that isn't their top priority. Say what you will, but people make time for and work on what they prioritize. The man who doesn't hug his wife or show affection for a week is held out as an ogre, but a woman that goes a week without offering/accepting SF seems to be fully justified because she is "tired." That is a load of crap. If you have time to clean the house and do the laundry, you have the time and energy for SF. To say that housework is justified because these things "have to be done" is in the same sentence implying that SF does not have to be done. DJ or not, that is what a wife's action says to her husband. If we make time for our priorities, how can it say anything else? To justify no SF using the tired or busy excuse on a regular basis and expecting your husband to just accept it is heading down a road you don't want to go if you want a healthy marriage.


Oh how we wish that 3rd sentence were true.


Look at that, rejected, illegible, insignificant, lonely, isolated, and abandoned. And then women expect there husband to live with this day after day, year after year. You wonder why he doesn't help around the house or give you the affection you need? Sure it should goes both ways. Most of the guys I know do try to meet their wives EN, even if somewhat inept and uneducated at how to do so. I think that is what gets me the most, guys will go out of their way trying but never quite knowing what works. Many women, on the other hand, know exactly what works but choose to ignore it because they feel perfectly justified in doing so, because it is not what they want to do, or even worse, because they purposefully withhold as a means of revenge for some unspoken hurts. I know not every guy tries so hard, but most of the good, decent ones really do.



This is where some of the real problems exist. Personally, I am blessed to have a wife that does try to offer SF. But most of the time, it is done out of duty. I appreciate the effort but that puts me between a rock and a hard place.

Do I let her, knowing that she really doesn't care to and feeling like a dog afterwards, completely killing any of the "closeness" that I desperately want or need. It ends up making me feel worse. A little because I feel like I "used" her, but mostly because it just drives home the inadequacy I already feel. Sex is supposed to feel good, so if she isn't enjoying it, the blame comes back to me. Am I that bad of a lover? Is my stomach to big>? Is something else not big enough? etc.... Talk about feelings of inadequacy. Here is something that the whole world tells you is the best thing since sliced bread and your wife acts like she could care less and is hoping it ends soon. That is not SF. Not for me or for her.

On the other hand, if I turn her down because I don't want to deal with the afore mentioned feelings, she gets mad at me. Apparently it hurts her feelings and she feels rejected. It was okay for me to feel rejected for the last 15 years, but the few times I've turned you down (with letting her know why) shouldn't be tolerated.

So what do you do? It's like putting poisoned meat in front of a starving man.


And what are those personal reasons? Other than the case of rape or abuse, what reasons are there? Why would you not want to enjoy something God has obviously designed to be enjoyable? If it feels okay after you start, why not start? IF your husband really wants to please you, why not be patient and show him how? If you are know that giving your husband true Sf would make him feel like king of the world wanting to do anything and everything for you, why would you not want to take advantage of what is truly one of the best win-win situations ever designed? Why would you wnat to lead a dull, boring life when a loving, passionate one is there for the taking if you just want to. I don't get it. (literally and figuratively )

Anyway, enough of my rant. Ladies, please listen to the article. Whether you like what it has to say, it is the reality that most of you are probably faced with. And before I get flamed back, I know not all men really try. There are some pathetic, selfish ones out there. If you are stuck with one of those, I'm sorry and feel free to ignore what I said. But I still believe most guys want to please their wives. We may not know how. We may have given up trying. We may feel resentful at trying for so long with little to no reward. But there is hope for us.

Ok, not saying that there's anything right about the wife avoiding SF but I need to point out that there is a HUGE difference between a husband NOT showing affection for a FULL week and the wife not participating in SF for a full week. Affection is something that should always be there. Not that couples have to spend 24/7 in hugs, but there are a gazillion ways to show affection and if a man chooses to do none of them, why is he surprised when he reaches for his wife and she's less than enthusiastic?

Here's an example: I've been trying to clean up my own house, so to speak, though I really don't think our marriage is going to make it. So, I've been making sure I try to keep up in the SF department. And, as usual, here I am at work, with not ONE email, call, text, etc. etc. etc. And I have said COUNTLESS times how much I'd like to connect at least once--hopefully more--during the day. The next time I hear from him will be my phone ringing about 5:30-5:45PM as I'm fighting rush hour traffic and when I answer the voice on the other line will say: "What's for dinner". Then he might say "anything I can do to get it rolling before you get home?" Keep in mind, this is coming from someone who is currently unemployed so there are no pressing all-day meetings, etc.

It's taken me a while to get to this point but I think I *finally* have it in my head that there's nothing WRONG with me for being less than completely enthusiastic about SF (though I definitely go through my periods where it's all on, all the time--because of affection and communication needs being met). What's wrong is that I've been batted down time and again in my two top needs: affection and conversation (let's not even talk about #3 and #4 respect and financial security). Yet, I'm expected to just be "the way I was before we got married" when it comes to SF.

Can you tell I'm just a bit bitter here?

Do they teach you this in SCHOOL? Do they take all the girls away in 7th Grade and teach you that Women have the corner on KNOWING what is IMPORTANT and what ISN'T?

Come on OH... you are better than this. You don't have the RIGHT to decide which is MORE IMPORTANT... not to ME and not to your HUSBAND. If you think you do, then I am afraid that you won't be making much headway.

Too many women equate Sex as THE MOST IMMENSE BURDON on them and to meet that burdon, they should be compensated as they see fit, consistently, and first.

DO NOT tell me what IS important. Tell me what you feel is important and what you are willing to do. But this BS that you somehow KNOW what is the equivalency rating of sex vs affection is ludicrous.

Can you tell I'm just a bit appalled here?

I'm not trying to say I know what's more important. Well, I know what's more important FOR ME, but I'm not trying to shoehorn that on anyone else. But how about we flip that around because I honestly believe it works both ways (hence my feeling it has to be a choreographed dance between the partners).

Too many men equate affection (and conversation) as trite and too much trouble to participate in/too difficult to figure out what the woman wants and that they should be compensated sexually, as they see fit, consistently and first.

I don't think I *ever* said that affection was more important than SF. If I did, then I should have made myself more clear when I typed that sentence. But comparing the time involved with SF and affection/conversation is like comparing apples and oranges.

OH--your man is just not sufficiently motivated to make the changes you desire. Here is my (only slightly) tongue in cheek suggestion.

Write out a contract that states that you: will provide one sex act per day (DH's choice, nothing kinky unless agreed upon) and unlimited listening quietly with lips slightly parted in wonder in return for his: earning $50,000 per year in any legal manner he so choses. Each additional $50,000 will entitle him to another sex act (again of his choice) per day.

Sex worries--gone. Financial worries--gone. DH--too exhausted and content to argue. OH--no longer exhausted, but now content, can work or stay home with the kids, as desired or needed.

ROTFLMAO. Only he would tell me where I could put that contract... Or he'd tell me never in a million years would he believe that I would honor it.

I'd change the financial number though. I make more than that number now and that barely covers things where I live.... If I continued to work, and that's all he could make, great. But I couldn't quit with him earning that salary.

I know it was tongue in cheek though. Thanks for the chuckle.

I keep being reminded how grateful I am that I have a day job.

So can a woman behave in sex with more desire then she really has? Can a man really listen and show affection with more desire then he has?


I'd like to think that we can realize that we don't feel and understand everything that our spouse feels, but trust them enough to let them know our needs and want to meet them.

And I imagine that it wouldn't have to start with a lot. I'm guessing, but I would think that it would mean a lot for a husband to actually start up a conversation and ask questions, without having to act like it was the most important thing in the world. On the otherside, I know I'd love if I didn't have to ask first, and I just walked into the bedroom to a wife that was already where the outfit you know is a big turn on. Even if she wasn't all into it, you could feel the effort.

Just wanted to complete the IMPLIED quote.

C'mon CFIO, you can't have sex 24/7 and you know it. You can have sexual tension and innuendo and stuff like that, but that may just as well be shared under Affection, Admiration, or Conversation.

SF should never NOT be there, it's just less of a background process than Affection, so is more likely to end up concentrated in periods of action instead of lightly wafting through the air, like Affection can.

This is a MarriageBuilders forum, right? I guess that means that we all - at least in principle - agree to Dr. Harley's teachings.

Step 1: Eliminate ALL Love Busters. This includes DJ's and this includes DJ's even when they so nicely express 'what we really feel.' It's possible to express yourself without resorting to DJ's, and that's essential for all of us here to learn in order to stand a chance to have our needs met.

Only then does Step 2: POJA the meeting of Emotional Needs even enter the picture.

I think we're doing ourselves a disservice to pit men against women. You can't compare a woman who's actively trying to do the Harley principles with a woman who's not working on the marriage, and you can't compare men willing to work for their marriages with those burying their head in the sand either.

The women here don't need to be told that SF is important. Most of us KNOW, we just don't know how to fulfill it to our spouse's standard without building resentment, so we're trying to protect our spouse from that (as per POJA). This is a world apart from a wife who still thinks her hubby is a beast for having a sex drive, and thinks that a mature relationship means 'getting over all that sweaty stuff.'

The men here probably can't imagine a man not wanting to listen to his wife when she expresses her strategies to meet both spouses' needs. That's because THEY already know the importance of those things, and would perhaps even welcome it if their spouse would tell them exactly what makes them tick in the bedroom. This is a world apart from a man who still thinks his wife's needs are silly and irrational and that she should respond to his touches no matter how unfilfilled she is otherwise, because he's just awesome like that and if it doesn't happen that means SHE is broken.

We, voracious readers on the board, probably have more in common, attitude-wise, with other board members of either gender than we have with non-board spouses of our own gender. So I think we'd all be better off to compare along those lines.

I say: Vent as much as you want about your needs and feelings, try not to 2x4 posters that just happen to be of the opposite gender, and when you're going home to approach your spouse about the issues you've just vented about, LEAVE THE DJ'S OUT OF IT!

Or he'd tell me never in a million years would he believe that I would honor it.

Maybe if you notarized it. . . LOL

Or maybe this is a better way of putting it:

Women have a list of things that need to be done. It has 100 items on it and sex is #98.

Men have a list of things that need to be done. It has 10 items on it and sex is #1.

Logical conclusion: women need to move sex up the list to at least the top 5 and dump 90 things off the list. Now don't start arguing that you can't--I would bet money that they ended up on your list when somebody dumped them off of their list--lol.

And it's funny, some people will read this article and still believe that sex has no emotional meaning for men. I have come to realize that it is so emotionally important for men. Now I don't exactly understand it, but that's ok.

Once I realized its importance to my husband, I began to schedule it. Every 3 days like clockwork. At a time of day when I'm not too tired or frazzled to enjoy it. No angst, no resentment--just marriage maintenance time. After all, if we women can steel ourselves to get up on a StairMaster three times a week for our physical well-being, surely scheduling SF three times a week for our marital well-being is doable--but of course some of the things on the to-do list have to go.

C'mon WD... I KNOW you understand what I am trying to say.


You know that I was referring to the point that Men are EXPECTED to be "ON" whenever the wife wants to discuss something. Wants to show you something. Wants... well... anything at all. Hence the 24/7. I WANT to be available and am willing to be available 24/7 to listen to my wife. To support my wife, etc etc. I will wax and wane with my ability. But it is EXPECTED as can clearly be seen in this thread.

Women, on the other hand, have the 'option' to feel 'up to' sex. If I say "How about lets go upstairs?" Thousands of excuses come gushing forth. If she walks up to me 1 minute later and begins talking about how the dog barfed on the carpet... what are MY options? It isn't even that I wouldn't want to be supportive. I am merely pointing out the double standard. What if I said "I am tired, maybe tomorrow I will listen about the barf story." or "I am just bushed. I am going to go take a shower."

WHAT WOULD YOU FEEL LIKE? Would you simply be accepting and think, "Poor guy. He must be beat to not want to listen to my day at the mall." Do you EVER think... 'Hmm... maybe he isn't feeling all that hot about us right now. I think I will go join him in the shower. That will perk him up.'

I would venture to guess you would think. "That lazy SOB is so insensitive. Why can he just talk with me? Why won't he pay any attention to me. He NEVER listens to me. He completely ignores me 7 out of 28 days and doesn't say a WORD. The other 21 days he is either too tired, got a headache, wants to watch TV, going to a friends, or gotta get some beer!"

I get it. Women have the RIGHT to expect to feel wonderful to meet their Husband's needs. But men better be meeting their wives needs... 24/7. (for effect)

Ahhh...but you are doing EXACTLY what MB suggests you should NOT do and that's to [censored]-ume. You are assuming you know what I was thinking. And I feel I can point this out to you because I am a big time offender of this subject. I pointed out previously that my husband once remarked that I looked nice in heels. But what I heard was "you look nice in heels and you should wear them all the time to please me, comfort be damned". And normally, I would have responded to just that remark and it would have been a belligerent reply. But instead, I took it for face value and just said "thank you".

Read the first chapter of Harley's book. He backs up what I say. Sex is an "event". I can't remember the exact word he used to describe affection but he went on to say it should be the canopy the covers the lovers' couch--which says it should always be there.

WD and OH... you absolutely have the complete and total right to feel and believe the way you do.

But listen to the men here. You THINK you understand. You THINK you listen. But when that voice doesn't match the one in your head, you appear to deign it wrong, out of hand. If you dismiss the words in this article, which every man thus far, and several women have expressed as truly believable.

You do so at your marriage's peril.